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	<title>Comments on: Come Together</title>
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	<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/</link>
	<description>Recovering the intent of God&#039;s Scriptures, one Hebrew or Greek word at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: Kelly Abeyratne</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2476</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly Abeyratne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 03:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2476</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So good to see that you have written Carol...I have continued to pray for you.  I, too, have seen God in early years with glenched fist...truly it came from my Roman Catholic upbringing.  To answer your question...&quot;how can I begin to view him...&quot; the only answer is God&#039;s Word along with the work of the Holy Spirit.  I will ask the Holy Spirit to open your mind and heart as you read His Word and rest in His presence.  You are loved, Kelly:)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So good to see that you have written Carol&#8230;I have continued to pray for you.  I, too, have seen God in early years with glenched fist&#8230;truly it came from my Roman Catholic upbringing.  To answer your question&#8230;&#8221;how can I begin to view him&#8230;&#8221; the only answer is God&#8217;s Word along with the work of the Holy Spirit.  I will ask the Holy Spirit to open your mind and heart as you read His Word and rest in His presence.  You are loved, Kelly:)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2464</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2464</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay. Thanks.

BTW I did not mean to imply that I thought Abraham was not a free agent.

As you know, The Canterbury Tales is a collection of stories written by Geoffrey Chaucer in the 14th century.

Chaucer likes to play with the idea that his characters (pilgrims on the way to Canterbury) live their lives as free agents, but their actions are in reality determined by the author (Chaucer) who like God already knows how the story ends and who can create a his own &quot;butterfly effect&quot; at will :-)

I probably had something like the &quot;picture&quot; above in my mind.

Thanks,
Mike]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay. Thanks.</p>
<p>BTW I did not mean to imply that I thought Abraham was not a free agent.</p>
<p>As you know, The Canterbury Tales is a collection of stories written by Geoffrey Chaucer in the 14th century.</p>
<p>Chaucer likes to play with the idea that his characters (pilgrims on the way to Canterbury) live their lives as free agents, but their actions are in reality determined by the author (Chaucer) who like God already knows how the story ends and who can create a his own &#8220;butterfly effect&#8221; at will <img src='http://skipmoen.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I probably had something like the &#8220;picture&#8221; above in my mind.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
Mike</p>
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		<title>By: Skip Moen</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2462</link>
		<dc:creator>Skip Moen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Generally, an agent is someone who has the ability and the opportunity to act independently of constraint.  Of course, this definition has to be refined since we are all in some respect or another constrained.  But agency means that I am able to choose against the natural propensity or physical circumstances.  It is the ability to do otherwise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Generally, an agent is someone who has the ability and the opportunity to act independently of constraint.  Of course, this definition has to be refined since we are all in some respect or another constrained.  But agency means that I am able to choose against the natural propensity or physical circumstances.  It is the ability to do otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2460</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Skip,

I agree, &quot;it doesn’t seem to me that the Hebrew account bears the weight of God already knowing how Abraham would react”.

I said &quot;I like to think&quot; that God already knows Abraham will pass the test, but don&#039;t see any  evidence for onniscience in the text :-)

What do you mean by agency?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Skip,</p>
<p>I agree, &#8220;it doesn’t seem to me that the Hebrew account bears the weight of God already knowing how Abraham would react”.</p>
<p>I said &#8220;I like to think&#8221; that God already knows Abraham will pass the test, but don&#8217;t see any  evidence for onniscience in the text <img src='http://skipmoen.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>What do you mean by agency?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2459</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello again Antoinette,

I have visited your website a number of times and always enjoy the visit; it is very informative and I really like the &quot;look and feel.&quot;

Finding Rabbi Gorelik&#039;s audio on Devarim was a pleasant surprise and listening to him speak on it was a wonderful way to spend some time Saturday afternoon.

Thank you for your very detailed and interesting answer to my question, I now have a much better understanding of this amazing biblical event.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello again Antoinette,</p>
<p>I have visited your website a number of times and always enjoy the visit; it is very informative and I really like the &#8220;look and feel.&#8221;</p>
<p>Finding Rabbi Gorelik&#8217;s audio on Devarim was a pleasant surprise and listening to him speak on it was a wonderful way to spend some time Saturday afternoon.</p>
<p>Thank you for your very detailed and interesting answer to my question, I now have a much better understanding of this amazing biblical event.</p>
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		<title>By: Skip Moen</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2458</link>
		<dc:creator>Skip Moen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2458</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Without introducing another line of &quot;deep&quot; questions, it doesn&#039;t seem to me that the Hebrew account bears the weight of &quot;God already knowing how Abraham would react&quot;.  That comes from a Greek model of time - one that is rife with fallacious metaphors, principally about the confusion of space and time.  I wrote my doctoral dissertation on this subject.  Suffice it to say for now, it is no degradation of omniscience for Abraham to have an impact on the future - as do all free agents.  His test of faith really is a test, not a foregone conclusion simply hidden from him.

If that is the case, and the Hebrew phenomenological verbal structure bears it out, then agency is the most powerful force in human existence - and the most serious.  The Butterfly Effect is real. (to a limit which would have to be discussed in detail).  

Voila.  The &quot;test&quot; of Abraham is real.  But it is a test.  Therefore, as Sarna points out, it is never a question of the status of child sacrifice.  The point of the Adekah is not a polemic against child sacrifice.  It is a story about the depth of one man&#039;s trust in the living God.

I am sure that this comment will cause a great deal of discussion about omniscience.  I only suggest that before you go crazy with the implications, you consider the fact that the early church fathers developed the doctrine of omniscience in relation to the Greek idea of metaphysical perfection, not knowledge.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without introducing another line of &#8220;deep&#8221; questions, it doesn&#8217;t seem to me that the Hebrew account bears the weight of &#8220;God already knowing how Abraham would react&#8221;.  That comes from a Greek model of time &#8211; one that is rife with fallacious metaphors, principally about the confusion of space and time.  I wrote my doctoral dissertation on this subject.  Suffice it to say for now, it is no degradation of omniscience for Abraham to have an impact on the future &#8211; as do all free agents.  His test of faith really is a test, not a foregone conclusion simply hidden from him.</p>
<p>If that is the case, and the Hebrew phenomenological verbal structure bears it out, then agency is the most powerful force in human existence &#8211; and the most serious.  The Butterfly Effect is real. (to a limit which would have to be discussed in detail).  </p>
<p>Voila.  The &#8220;test&#8221; of Abraham is real.  But it is a test.  Therefore, as Sarna points out, it is never a question of the status of child sacrifice.  The point of the Adekah is not a polemic against child sacrifice.  It is a story about the depth of one man&#8217;s trust in the living God.</p>
<p>I am sure that this comment will cause a great deal of discussion about omniscience.  I only suggest that before you go crazy with the implications, you consider the fact that the early church fathers developed the doctrine of omniscience in relation to the Greek idea of metaphysical perfection, not knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: ANTOINETTE (Canada)</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2456</link>
		<dc:creator>ANTOINETTE (Canada)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2456</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would have been easier to understand as a lesson in self sacrifice if Yeshua had not come as God&#039;s son, but as God Himself in Human form. But I believe the point must be, letting his son die that we would experience His victory over death. He  shows us that life on earth is but a short time, but life in Him is eternal. Yeshua had to come as God&#039;s son (seed, I also learned that son means builder) so that he could be the first fruit of the harvest. You got me going ... Praise God for this community, that has the confidence to question and comment so that the truth is revealed His  awesome Word lives!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would have been easier to understand as a lesson in self sacrifice if Yeshua had not come as God&#8217;s son, but as God Himself in Human form. But I believe the point must be, letting his son die that we would experience His victory over death. He  shows us that life on earth is but a short time, but life in Him is eternal. Yeshua had to come as God&#8217;s son (seed, I also learned that son means builder) so that he could be the first fruit of the harvest. You got me going &#8230; Praise God for this community, that has the confidence to question and comment so that the truth is revealed His  awesome Word lives!</p>
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		<title>By: ANTOINETTE (Canada)</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2454</link>
		<dc:creator>ANTOINETTE (Canada)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2454</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Michael,
 Thanks for visiting my website, I actually updated the look on the Parsha section, so that the comments will be easier to read (the font was too light).
I also changed the format a bit.  But the site does not get many visitors, so it is a pretty lonely midrash at this point.

Back to the question concerning human sacrifice.
According to Sarna, &quot;Turning to the ancient Near Eastern World, we note that, if human sacrifice had ever, in fact, been widely and regularly practiced, by the second millennium B.C.E., the age of the patriarchs, it had long been accepted that animal offering was, in normal circumstances, a perfectly satisfactory surrogate... Canaan however, seems to have been an exception in this respect, for there is much archaeological evidence to show that human sacrifice was more in vogue here than elsewhere, from very early times until far into the second millennium.... a belief in the efficacy of human sacrifice as a means of propitiating the deity was not unknown even in Israel. The mere fact thatthe armies of Israel and Judah desisted from further military engagement as a result of the rite just referred to, (Moab sacrificing his son) shows the impression it made on the popular imagination... kings Ahaz and Manasseh may well have been consciously aping alien cults. But the prophets were certainly preaching popular Israelite beliefs when they felt repeatedly called upon to disassociate God from this horrible aberration&quot;.... even in Israel this monstrous idea was not totally eradicated from the popular consciousness until the Babylonian Exile.&quot;

I hope that answers your question.
 
When you envision the period of time Abraham lived in, he would not have been shocked that this was asked of him, as God was still teaching His people how to be His separated people, and even at that time they were &quot;being a light to the world&quot; by learning and expressing the will of the God of Abraham as a compassionate and trustworthy God.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Michael,<br />
 Thanks for visiting my website, I actually updated the look on the Parsha section, so that the comments will be easier to read (the font was too light).<br />
I also changed the format a bit.  But the site does not get many visitors, so it is a pretty lonely midrash at this point.</p>
<p>Back to the question concerning human sacrifice.<br />
According to Sarna, &#8220;Turning to the ancient Near Eastern World, we note that, if human sacrifice had ever, in fact, been widely and regularly practiced, by the second millennium B.C.E., the age of the patriarchs, it had long been accepted that animal offering was, in normal circumstances, a perfectly satisfactory surrogate&#8230; Canaan however, seems to have been an exception in this respect, for there is much archaeological evidence to show that human sacrifice was more in vogue here than elsewhere, from very early times until far into the second millennium&#8230;. a belief in the efficacy of human sacrifice as a means of propitiating the deity was not unknown even in Israel. The mere fact thatthe armies of Israel and Judah desisted from further military engagement as a result of the rite just referred to, (Moab sacrificing his son) shows the impression it made on the popular imagination&#8230; kings Ahaz and Manasseh may well have been consciously aping alien cults. But the prophets were certainly preaching popular Israelite beliefs when they felt repeatedly called upon to disassociate God from this horrible aberration&#8221;&#8230;. even in Israel this monstrous idea was not totally eradicated from the popular consciousness until the Babylonian Exile.&#8221;</p>
<p>I hope that answers your question.</p>
<p>When you envision the period of time Abraham lived in, he would not have been shocked that this was asked of him, as God was still teaching His people how to be His separated people, and even at that time they were &#8220;being a light to the world&#8221; by learning and expressing the will of the God of Abraham as a compassionate and trustworthy God.</p>
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		<title>By: carl roberts</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2453</link>
		<dc:creator>carl roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We read in the G-d&#039;s Book of the past,present and future and see the words of those who reject G-d&#039;s gift of Himself, &quot;there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.&quot; This is strictly a &quot;carlism&quot; (actually just a guess), but I see this as an eternity of regret. &quot;How could I have been so blind not to receive the abundant provision of atonement G-d has made for me.&quot; Abraham&#039;s prophetic words of faith were, &quot;G-d will provide Himself a Lamb.&quot; This is another glimpse of the Lamb of G-d which taketh away the sins of the world. (and this is the Master theme of the entire Book- &quot;behold, the Lamb of G-d.&quot;!)  In all covenants, the old and the new, G-d&#039;s plan for the redemption,restoration and renewal of relationship is slowly and methodically revealed in each Bible story we encounter. Our Bible is not only history and mystery, but rich in the revealed love of the Creator toward His creation, and of the Bridegroom toward His future Bride. Our Messiah has conquered death, sin and the grave by this voluntary and vicarious Sacrifice of Himself. He became sin who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of G-d in Him. His victory is now our victory, and He allows us to be partakers of His Divine nature because of His cross. 
How marvelous! How wonderful!
And my song shall ever be:
How marvelous! How wonderful
is my Savior&#039;s love for me!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We read in the G-d&#8217;s Book of the past,present and future and see the words of those who reject G-d&#8217;s gift of Himself, &#8220;there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.&#8221; This is strictly a &#8220;carlism&#8221; (actually just a guess), but I see this as an eternity of regret. &#8220;How could I have been so blind not to receive the abundant provision of atonement G-d has made for me.&#8221; Abraham&#8217;s prophetic words of faith were, &#8220;G-d will provide Himself a Lamb.&#8221; This is another glimpse of the Lamb of G-d which taketh away the sins of the world. (and this is the Master theme of the entire Book- &#8220;behold, the Lamb of G-d.&#8221;!)  In all covenants, the old and the new, G-d&#8217;s plan for the redemption,restoration and renewal of relationship is slowly and methodically revealed in each Bible story we encounter. Our Bible is not only history and mystery, but rich in the revealed love of the Creator toward His creation, and of the Bridegroom toward His future Bride. Our Messiah has conquered death, sin and the grave by this voluntary and vicarious Sacrifice of Himself. He became sin who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of G-d in Him. His victory is now our victory, and He allows us to be partakers of His Divine nature because of His cross.<br />
How marvelous! How wonderful!<br />
And my song shall ever be:<br />
How marvelous! How wonderful<br />
is my Savior&#8217;s love for me!</p>
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		<title>By: Skip Moen</title>
		<link>http://skipmoen.com/2009/07/26/come-together/comment-page-1/#comment-2452</link>
		<dc:creator>Skip Moen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skipmoen.com/?p=2292#comment-2452</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As you note, even non-Messianic Jews see the enormous sacrifice inherent in the Akedah.  It must (and does) shock them, knowing that their Messiah will somehow embrace the pattern of Isaac.  Thank you for offering this quote.  I like Sarna.

Now to your question.  How could God offer up His first born?  Ah, but God didn&#039;t.  His first born volunteered to be offered up.  God accepted the sacrifice of the first born.  It is as if Isaac had asked to be sacrificed.  

There is another element here as well.  Yeshua is GOD manifest in the flesh.  The real mystery is how it is possible for God Himself to be sacrificed for us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you note, even non-Messianic Jews see the enormous sacrifice inherent in the Akedah.  It must (and does) shock them, knowing that their Messiah will somehow embrace the pattern of Isaac.  Thank you for offering this quote.  I like Sarna.</p>
<p>Now to your question.  How could God offer up His first born?  Ah, but God didn&#8217;t.  His first born volunteered to be offered up.  God accepted the sacrifice of the first born.  It is as if Isaac had asked to be sacrificed.  </p>
<p>There is another element here as well.  Yeshua is GOD manifest in the flesh.  The real mystery is how it is possible for God Himself to be sacrificed for us.</p>
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