Comments on: As Greek As It Gets http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/ Recovering the intent of God's Scriptures, one Hebrew or Greek word at a time. Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:28:19 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Skip Moen » Blog Archive » Principle #7 http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3208 Skip Moen » Blog Archive » Principle #7 Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:01:38 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3208 [...] PaRDeS, the four levels of Scriptural meaning. This principle seems most likely to lead us to Sod, the [...] [...] PaRDeS, the four levels of Scriptural meaning. This principle seems most likely to lead us to Sod, the [...]

]]> By: Kelly Abeyratne http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3152 Kelly Abeyratne Wed, 09 Sep 2009 05:08:25 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3152 Oh, for the mercy and grace of God...and the blessing that I may be in community with those who seek Him diligently. Oh, for the mercy and grace of God…and the blessing that I may be in community with those who seek Him diligently.

]]> By: Skip Moen http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3130 Skip Moen Mon, 07 Sep 2009 11:02:33 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3130 Thanks again, Carl. As you can see from my reply above, the shift to Hebraic understanding is NOT to exclude anyone. It is simply to understand the mind of the author, and thereby reap greater benefits for all. As Bob Gorelik says, "The goal is to arrive at the finish line TOGETHER." No one wins by getting there first. We win together when we all arrive at once. By the way, the contrast between Greek and Hebrew is only a convenient label. The actual contrast is much older (consider Adam's response to God in Genesis 3) as we will shortly examine. The Greeks were no dummies. I spent most of my academic training with Greek philosophers and the exercise was well worth it. Learning the discipline of THINKING is important. But considering thinking as the only measure of truth is a tragic mistake. So, we want the best minds AND the most open hearts on this journey. Thanks again, Carl. As you can see from my reply above, the shift to Hebraic understanding is NOT to exclude anyone. It is simply to understand the mind of the author, and thereby reap greater benefits for all. As Bob Gorelik says, “The goal is to arrive at the finish line TOGETHER.” No one wins by getting there first. We win together when we all arrive at once.

By the way, the contrast between Greek and Hebrew is only a convenient label. The actual contrast is much older (consider Adam’s response to God in Genesis 3) as we will shortly examine. The Greeks were no dummies. I spent most of my academic training with Greek philosophers and the exercise was well worth it. Learning the discipline of THINKING is important. But considering thinking as the only measure of truth is a tragic mistake. So, we want the best minds AND the most open hearts on this journey.

]]> By: Skip Moen http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3129 Skip Moen Mon, 07 Sep 2009 10:54:21 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3129 To all fellow travelers, Just remember that we are products of BOTH civilizations. The effort to seek rabbinic methods is not so that we may cast aside the Greek-based traditio-historical methods (cf. Kaiser), but rather that we may understand the way the AUTHORS of the Bible thought. All of that good lexical work still needs to be done since we are removed from the language and culture of the authors, but even after that, we still need to see how these men used God's Word. In other words, our hermenuetical method is not the same as theirs. We are just trying to understand what the text says, and that means we have to know the mind of the author - as much as we possibly can. To all fellow travelers,

Just remember that we are products of BOTH civilizations. The effort to seek rabbinic methods is not so that we may cast aside the Greek-based traditio-historical methods (cf. Kaiser), but rather that we may understand the way the AUTHORS of the Bible thought. All of that good lexical work still needs to be done since we are removed from the language and culture of the authors, but even after that, we still need to see how these men used God’s Word. In other words, our hermenuetical method is not the same as theirs. We are just trying to understand what the text says, and that means we have to know the mind of the author – as much as we possibly can.

]]> By: Skip Moen http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3128 Skip Moen Mon, 07 Sep 2009 10:48:58 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3128 This fits right in with the lengthy study of the 'ezer kenegdo in the book I am trying to finish. Thanks. This fits right in with the lengthy study of the ‘ezer kenegdo in the book I am trying to finish. Thanks.

]]> By: Jeffrey Curtis http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3126 Jeffrey Curtis Mon, 07 Sep 2009 03:39:17 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3126 Thanks Carl no offense taken from this man, thanks for sharing Jeff Thanks Carl no offense taken from this man, thanks for sharing
Jeff

]]> By: carl roberts http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3125 carl roberts Mon, 07 Sep 2009 02:19:06 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3125 I'm going to place my neck on the chopping block for this one. I'll go ahead an apologize (to those I may offend by this) up front. Now, where to begin? "G-d was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself." "The world" dear brothers and sisters is rather inclusive. Male, female, circumcision and non. (All) have sinned and come short of the glory of G-d. At the end of days when each of us stands before our Maker, we will then be separated into two divisions. Those who are His and those Who aren't. Those who are in and those who are out. Not to worry, G-d will do the separating. It is not a Greek vs Hebrew thing, neither is it a male vs female thing. We are (all) one in Christ Jesus or if you prefer, we are (all) united together in Yeshua HaMashiach. For G-d so love the world.. (All) have sinned. Rather inclusive, don't you think? With apologies to Rick Warren and PDL fans, "it's not about me'..it's not about you.. but it is about us. Together, (Greek,Jew,Male,Female,bond or free) we are one in Christ. We (all) must be born again. The uneducated, freckled, one-legged, blondes, skinny,Chinese, pirates,poets and plumbers must all come through the Door who is the Christ. Yes, the mind of Christ was a Hebrew mind. Yes, the apostle Paul and the mondo majority of the New Testament was written to the Jew first, but salvation is also offered to the Greeks. Yes, Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill. The Bible is an absolute goldmine when we learn to use a Hebrew key. There are so many hidden jewels contained with it's pages. Please don't throw out the Greek baby with the Hebrew bathwater. We can come to G-d with our minds and our hands. It's not "either or", it's both. Our lips and our lives. He wants our everything. True Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with the G-d who is, through Jesus who is the Christ. It was my sin that pinioned my Savior to the execution stake. I am the cause of His death. He gave His life's blood as an atoning sacrifice for my sins. (And potentially for the sins of every man, woman and child in the world.) His resurrection and the torn veil of the temple now provide access for anyone to "enter in". Thank you from the depths of my heart brother Skip for your labors in the LORD. This daily labor within the written words of G-d is no small thing, but our great G-d has promised, "my Word will not return unto me empty".. We (all) together will journey on, travelers together toward a land that is fairer than day, listening for the sound of G-d's trumpet, loving and serving one another daily in Jesus wonderful name. On the eve of "labor day" here in the states, I would like to remind everyone of our Master's words: "come unto me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest... May the grace and peace of our heavenly Abba be yours in all of G-d's fullness. Amen. I’m going to place my neck on the chopping block for this one. I’ll go ahead an apologize (to those I may offend by this) up front. Now, where to begin? “G-d was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.” “The world” dear brothers and sisters is rather inclusive. Male, female, circumcision and non. (All) have sinned and come short of the glory of G-d. At the end of days when each of us stands before our Maker, we will then be separated into two divisions. Those who are His and those Who aren’t. Those who are in and those who are out. Not to worry, G-d will do the separating. It is not a Greek vs Hebrew thing, neither is it a male vs female thing. We are (all) one in Christ Jesus or if you prefer, we are (all) united together in Yeshua HaMashiach. For G-d so love the world.. (All) have sinned. Rather inclusive, don’t you think? With apologies to Rick Warren and PDL fans, “it’s not about me’..it’s not about you.. but it is about us. Together, (Greek,Jew,Male,Female,bond or free) we are one in Christ. We (all) must be born again. The uneducated, freckled, one-legged, blondes, skinny,Chinese, pirates,poets and plumbers must all come through the Door who is the Christ. Yes, the mind of Christ was a Hebrew mind. Yes, the apostle Paul and the mondo majority of the New Testament was written to the Jew first, but salvation is also offered to the Greeks. Yes, Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill. The Bible is an absolute goldmine when we learn to use a Hebrew key. There are so many hidden jewels contained with it’s pages. Please don’t throw out the Greek baby with the Hebrew bathwater. We can come to G-d with our minds and our hands. It’s not “either or”, it’s both. Our lips and our lives. He wants our everything. True Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with the G-d who is, through Jesus who is the Christ. It was my sin that pinioned my Savior to the execution stake. I am the cause of His death. He gave His life’s blood as an atoning sacrifice for my sins. (And potentially for the sins of every man, woman and child in the world.) His resurrection and the torn veil of the temple now provide access for anyone to “enter in”. Thank you from the depths of my heart brother Skip for your labors in the LORD. This daily labor within the written words of G-d is no small thing, but our great G-d has promised, “my Word will not return unto me empty”.. We (all) together will journey on, travelers together toward a land that is fairer than day, listening for the sound of G-d’s trumpet, loving and serving one another daily in Jesus wonderful name. On the eve of “labor day” here in the states, I would like to remind everyone of our Master’s words: “come unto me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest… May the grace and peace of our heavenly Abba be yours in all of G-d’s fullness. Amen.

]]> By: Drew http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3123 Drew Mon, 07 Sep 2009 01:08:24 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3123 Shalom Michael, This is indeed an LOL moment! Thanks ... I needed it! You are correct in that many folks, including myself (guilty) are hard on the "Greek mind-set" ... while the rest of the world holds this same Greek mind-set in high esteem. At the end of the day however it is still the wisdom of man and we know that it is folly relative to the wisdom of ELOHIM. Conversely ... there is much over thinking that goes on in the Hebraic mind-set as well .... it is not as if the Greeks have cornered this market! :) We often times tread some very thin ice .... in that peoples' desire to know The Lord deeper can often times mask ulterior motives within us which are usually pride or ego-centric based. I firmly believe however that approaching The Word in a Hebraic context is part of the benefit that Paul spoke of in Romans - 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of ELOHIM. On a personal note: For many years I was blinded by the doctrine of perfection (the one ultimate explanation) and Catholic orthodoxy .... so I know first hand what Skip commented upon today. Skip ... your assessment is so true! These days I belong to a Messianic Jewish Community and I must tell you the studies are incredibly refreshing and the feeling of being released from the smothering yoke of top-down doctrine is simply joyful. Being mentored by a humble and Spirit led Rabbi is really a blessing! The Hebraic way is better ... but only if the well schooled disciple is a slave to Yeshua! Shalom Michael,

This is indeed an LOL moment! Thanks … I needed it!

You are correct in that many folks, including myself (guilty) are hard on the “Greek mind-set” … while the rest of the world holds this same Greek mind-set in high esteem. At the end of the day however it is still the wisdom of man and we know that it is folly relative to the wisdom of ELOHIM.

Conversely … there is much over thinking that goes on in the Hebraic mind-set as well …. it is not as if the Greeks have cornered this market! :) We often times tread some very thin ice …. in that peoples’ desire to know The Lord deeper can often times mask ulterior motives within us which are usually pride or ego-centric based.

I firmly believe however that approaching The Word in a Hebraic context is part of the benefit that Paul spoke of in Romans – 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of ELOHIM.

On a personal note: For many years I was blinded by the doctrine of perfection (the one ultimate explanation) and Catholic orthodoxy …. so I know first hand what Skip commented upon today. Skip … your assessment is so true!

These days I belong to a Messianic Jewish Community and I must tell you the studies are incredibly refreshing and the feeling of being released from the smothering yoke of top-down doctrine is simply joyful. Being mentored by a humble and Spirit led Rabbi is really a blessing! The Hebraic way is better … but only if the well schooled disciple is a slave to Yeshua!

]]> By: Michael http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3122 Michael Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:22:12 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3122 Hi Drew, Mostly ditto and must say in response to Cyndee's comment that I couldn't agree more. BTW with all these things coming together in the Hebrew worldview, I feel a little sorry for the Greeks; they are not all bad. In fact one of my favorite philosophers is an old Greek called Socrates, who once said something similar to CYndee: "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing." Hi Drew,

Mostly ditto and must say in response to Cyndee’s comment that I couldn’t agree more.

BTW with all these things coming together in the Hebrew worldview, I feel a little sorry for the Greeks; they are not all bad.

In fact one of my favorite philosophers is an old Greek called Socrates, who once said something similar to CYndee:

“I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.”

]]> By: Kyle Malkin http://skipmoen.com/2009/09/06/as-greek-as-it-gets/comment-page-1/#comment-3121 Kyle Malkin Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:32:54 +0000 http://skipmoen.com/?p=2661#comment-3121 Well said, Skip! So many years of my studying Scripture and constantly worrying and looking for the one "right," "correct," and "true" interpretation of Scripture only lead me further away from understanding and obeying what I was reading. The Greek mindset nearly led me to the point of giving up on Christianity completely as a nihilist. I have come across glimpses of Hebrew mindset in the text for years and never could understand them or explain them. They just didn't make any sense and seemed out of place in the manual for life and theology I thought I was reading. Why wasn't it all cut and dry and easy to understand? Why didn't God inspire a list of rules or doctrinal statement instead? Well, as I've found out over the last few years, He didn't. And it was my own error all along. I was blinded to the beauty of the Hebrew Scriptures we have and the intricacies of the text. This post today is a perfect opportunity for me to say THANKS! I am sooooo grateful for God using you to open my eyes to wisdom and understanding I never deserved. Praise God! Well said, Skip! So many years of my studying Scripture and constantly worrying and looking for the one “right,” “correct,” and “true” interpretation of Scripture only lead me further away from understanding and obeying what I was reading. The Greek mindset nearly led me to the point of giving up on Christianity completely as a nihilist. I have come across glimpses of Hebrew mindset in the text for years and never could understand them or explain them. They just didn’t make any sense and seemed out of place in the manual for life and theology I thought I was reading. Why wasn’t it all cut and dry and easy to understand? Why didn’t God inspire a list of rules or doctrinal statement instead?

Well, as I’ve found out over the last few years, He didn’t. And it was my own error all along. I was blinded to the beauty of the Hebrew Scriptures we have and the intricacies of the text. This post today is a perfect opportunity for me to say THANKS! I am sooooo grateful for God using you to open my eyes to wisdom and understanding I never deserved. Praise God!

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