I got an email today from Marc. I think you should read it and, if you can offer some useful advice, answer him on this blog. Here’ what he had to say:
“From the first few pages I read of your introductory “30 Days” series, I knew I had come upon something significant. I am so grateful for your teaching, Skip, and your passionate dedication to God’s Word, its accurate translation and understanding. Your writings have rocked my world.
My predicament, however, is what to do with all this. I now find myself a Hebraic-minded stranger in Christian world. I suppose my plight is not unfamiliar among the community. Now that my wife is onboard, after nearly 3 years of my own study, we’re trying to decide on the direction we go spiritually. We have 2 young children, 11 & 9 – how do we raise them to know God, know Yeshua, love them and Their Word? My 11 year old daughter says, “I don’t want to become Jewish!” LOL, neither do we. Some of our best friends are Jewish, I grew up with many Jewish friends, and its shocking how absent God is in their lives.
You said it recently, Skip. If I shared almost any of the insight and understanding I now have of God’s Word, the importance of Torah, the true teachings of Yeshua and Sh’aul, they’d think me a heretic! They think Fee & Stuart is getting deep – they have no idea… And God bless them, these are people who love Him and are striving to live rightly and obey Him in their lives. But we can’t in good conscience continue to be a part of “that.”
We’ve even gone as far as looking into some of the Messianic Jewish Congregations in the area – there are a few. But I don’t know if I want to wear a kippah and a prayer shawl (not sure the name). That direction doesn’t really look right either, but I’m not sure.
So the dilemma is where to go with all that we now know. Do others have this same struggle? I suppose we are fortunate that there is at least a small core of like-minded believers in Greater Phoenix, mainly because of Roderick. Unfortunately, they’re on the other side of town from us, and most of them are still going to large local Christian churches. Do they feel similarly conflicted?
Our concern is both for ourselves and our children. We all need to be plugged into a community. For now, we’re attending a local Christian church that both we and our kids really like, but I know the teaching is off. Do we go the Messianic route? It is an option”
Marc
NOTE: Marc lives in the Phoenix area, but his dilemma is common. Now you, all over the world, have a chance to help him and his family find the new way.
Thanks
Skip
Mark, Like to share this with you…
But Where Does that Leave Us?
Does it take 80 days on a mountain afire with the Sh’kinah to know the Holy One? No. Moreover, could a man learn all there is to know about the God of Avraham, of Yitschak and of Ya’akov in 800 – or 8,000 – or 800 million — days on a trembling mountain? No.
But that is okay – after all, the Holy One did not call us to be “know-it-all’s”. He just called us to be passionate seekers – searching and seeking, and questioning and pursuing Him forever. “Rabbi Son”
See the author’s website and maybe you can call on them, closer to you than us in South Africa
http://www.regionschristiancenter.org/
l’hitraot(see you)
Daniel
thanks, Daniel, for the website suggestion.
Marc,
Read your testimony…and similar ones for the last fifteen years. It will go something like this. You will continue to go to church and when the opportunity arises, you’ll try to interject some of what you’ve learned. Folks in church will think you’re becoming Jewish and that you’re going back “under the law.”
Christian holidays will become unbearable(especially with the kids)and you will feel like the lone ranger in most of the church functions.
Keep searching for a “home group” in your area – there are numerous ones you haven’t found them yet. It will have former church people of all denominations as well as Jewish folks. How far are you willing to travel to be with like minded seekers of YHVH? We have people that drive 45 miles one way each Shabbat for an all day(10-2pm) Bible study and lunch here in Myrtle Beach,SC. So there will be some in your area – keep searching – He will lead you to where you need to be.
shalom,
Chris
Chris,
I live in Stedman, NC, and would be interested in visiting your fellowship in Myrtle Beach.
Please let me know directions, times, and other necessary information (like appropriate dress).
My email is emily.durr@gmail.com
Thanks!
Emily
Marc -
I was just sitting here having a very heavy, emotional discussion with my wife on this very subject. I can deeply identify with your situation.
My journey into exploring and understanding the Jewish roots of scripture began at the beginning of this year. Although my timeline isn’t as long as yours (and most others in this community, I’d bet) as it pertains to this subject, it’s impact has been massive in my life. I, too, find myself to be an “Hebraic-minded stranger in Christian world.” To complicate things further, I’m on staff at a church which provides 100% of my families income. We’re a young family as well with three children, ages 4, 2, and 1.
As I lead my family along this path, the ramifications are inevitable. I share the same concerns that you do in finding a community of like-minded people that can be a source of nurturing, support, and friendship. You’re not alone. I can’t help but believe that finding a community of people like this will be a part of this journey that God is leading me on. I also have no idea what it is that I’m looking for. Better said, I don’t know what this community will look like.
I suppose I can’t offer you much in the way of encouragement or direction. Just know that you’re not alone.
- Derrick
P.S. I’m in the Phoenix area as well. If you’d like to connect some time, shoot me an email (derricklogan@me.com). Don’t feel obligated to do so, just making myself available.
Hi Marc,
The problem is the same all over the world. I live in Holland, a densely populated little country. But it’s very hard to find like minded believers in our area. Even my family (5 broters and sisters and an old mother) and the congregation where I used to preach think I have turned away from the gospel. They say I have left Paul and want to be enslaved under the Law again. They just don’t have a clue.
When I discovered the truth at first I wanted to share it with everyone. What a mistake! They started fighting me and saying I’m a heretic. Now I’m just in the midst of my old ecclesia, sitting and listening, many times with ‘curled toes’ (Dutch expression, meaning you can hardly bear it anymore). But the community is important, especially when you have children. They need friends in faith, even though it differs from your own. So we sit and wait for the opportunity God gives.
Think about how He must feel, seeing all of His children doing and believing all these things He never intended! But He still bears with us all!
Shalom,
Kees
Dear Marc,
I was (and am) in your exact situation, starting about 13 years ago. I decided that I could not in good conscience sit under the teaching of someone week after week that did not support Torah, and who constantly taught against it. They speak out of both sides of their mouth, saying that we should obey God, and then demeaning anyone and everyone who wants to obey the Torah, calling us all sorts of names and distancing themselves from us. You know the routine. That is the standard M.O. of almost EVERY church I have found, local and on TV. There are rare exceptions. And the Messianic Synagogues didn’t seem like a good fit either. I’m not Jewish (as far as I know), and I don’t feel right getting into Judaism and wearing a kippa and going thru their routines and all that.
About 10 years ago, I kind of stumbled into a small Sunday morning Bible study class called Torah Class, here in Merritt Island, Florida. I’ve been there ever since, attending faithfully almost every Saturday evening and one of the 2 Sunday AM classes. We don’t play games with religion, but our teacher, Tom Bradford, teaches consecutive inductive lessons each time, sternly admonishing all that the Torah is NOT done away with, and how to keep it properly. He is not a preacher, but a Harvard graduate and retired executive who YHVH has called to be a teacher of His Word, and he does a great job of it. All of the lessons are now video recorded and available for free on the website at http://www.TorahClass.com. The website gets over 1.5 million hits per month from all over the world. Many small groups all over the world hold their weekly assemblies, watching the Torah Class lesson and fellowshipping around it. That is what I personally plan to start doing when I move out to Tyler, Texas next month. May I suggest that you (and others) give this a try?
Shalom
Hi Marc,
I am at the same place you are and I was blessed when the Lord led both me and my sister down the path of seeking more of the truth of His Word. We were led to the same Torah class that Tom mentioned and it totally changed and added to my life. After 3 years of studying the Torach lessons taught online by Tom Bradford I was able to travel to Israel with the Torah class last year for a life changing experience! They are a wonderful group of people. Each week I am still attending my large Christian church, most times struggling with what I’m hearing and heart-broken that we as the “church” are so far, as someone mentioned above, from what God truly meant in His Word. But I go continuing to listen to my Torah lessons, continuing to learn all that Skip puts out and continuing to seek God to integrate all that He has taught, and is teaching me through others, into my life.
IF the teaching is off, become the teacher…where-ever you are. If the fellowship is good, love it and nourish it…where-ever you are.
Hello Marc,
You are definitely experiencing what dying to self and living for YHWH is like. Struggling with keeping familiarity close by and living out the knowledge of the truth is part of becoming a new creation in Christ as we learn from our Master everything HE taught. Personally, I had to leave nominal church. I could not resolve the anti-Jew teachings, nor the anti-Torah/sola Scriptura hypocrisies. However, I understand the children factor and the necessary fellowship that you feel you would be missing out on.
I am somewhat isolated in a little southern town in NC, and have been able to connect with a small group about 30 minutes away through Eliyah.com fellowship finder. Others sites that offer such are 119 Ministries and Torah 2 the Nations.
I will remember you and your family in prayer as you journey forward. Keep the main thing, the main thing. Love YHWH with all your heart, soul and strength and love others as He loves you. Shalom Shalom
Marc,
If God brought you this far, He will continue to show you the way. Don’t be afraid of change and be open to His guidance. Actively wait on Him, and He will bring people to you. You are not alone; you are part of God’s flock and He will not leave you. Above all, trust God..not just in thought but in action too.
Marc,
I think it is good to know you are not alone, we have all gone through similar things. I have been attending a Messianic Jewish temple because they have more truth there than anywhere else I have been, but, although they are very welcoming and serious in their worship of YHVH, I leave with the feeling that I am not Jewish. We need to have a place to worship, though, and we need community. I will say that I am so thankful for the Jews, they are my brothers and sisters in YHVH and without them Torah would not have been preserved. They have gone through a lot to preserve Torah. Much like any other “religion” I find there are Jews who are not so devout and those who are.
My family started celebrating YHVH’s holy days a few years ago, and were a little slower to drop Constantine’s Christian holy days entirely. My parents think we are crazy, my college age daughter thinks we are crazy (you are lucky your children are still small) but we have been blessed by dropping the pagan holy days and celebrating the days commanded.
We have a very small fellowship in Raleigh, NC, and have had the chance to teach a few others, but most don’t want to hear. This journey goes from very comfortable to extremely uncomfortable, but in the discomfort there is much joy and shalom. It feels like waking up. YHVH is calling His children back home.
I also like the teachings of Jim Staley, http://www.passionfortruth.com. He has some great teachings on the interpretation of Paul.
Welcome to the awake world.
“My predicament, however, is what to do with all this. I now find myself a Hebraic-minded stranger in Christian world.”
pre·dic·a·ment/priˈdikəmənt/
Noun: A difficult, unpleasant, or embarrassing situation.
Hi Marc,
I would recommend looking at this situation as an opportunity to enjoy learning about the Hebrew worldview and not worry too much about the Christian world
Marc, your situation is certainly not “new” to us. With knowledge comes responsibility. The responsibility being to follow Yeshua and live “by the book”.
We will be judged on our mercy and grace and not by our knowledge. We must be kind and loving members of the household of God.
I would suggets that you live according to the instructions found in the scriptures and NOT according to man’s religion. It is written:
Matt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Yeshua and Shaul (Paul) did NOT start a new religion. Salvation comes by Grace, through Yeshua HaMashiach. Rules for life come from the Torah’s instruction. Moses gave the Law, but that only gets one TO the river. To cross over into the promised land took YEHOSHUA, God’s Salvation.
The Tabernacle of Moses, the 7 feasts all have something to teach about Yeshua. Seek Him and let Him lead you and your family as the world becomes darker, let your light shine brighter.
Shalom my friend,
Ron Fink
“Yeshua and Shaul (Paul) did NOT start a new religion. Salvation comes by Grace, through Yeshua HaMashiach.”
“Moses gave the Law, but that only gets one TO the river. To cross over into the promised land took YEHOSHUA, God’s Salvation.”
Hi Ron,
With all due respect, I don’t know exactly what YEHOSHUA means, the Hebrew of Joshua and Jesus?
But wouldn’t it be God who gave the Law to Moses, and Jesus who said, Our father who art in Heaven, give us our daily bread and forgive us?
To be forgiven is something like being saved, or so it would seem to me?
As leaders of the Jews, a very academic kind of ethnic group, both Moses, and Jesus had a parent/child relationship with Our Father
And presumably both leaders had mastered one of the world’s most difficult texts
So I wouldn’t want to disparage the value of knowledge
But I would agree it is not enough to save us
BTW I meant by “world’s most difficult texts” the mind of God
Shalom. I am Jewish and a follower of Yeshua and I can certainly related to your dilemma. I started in the church world, but Adonai brought me back to my roots. First, you don’t have to wear a kippah or tallit to worship in a Messianic synagogue. It’s really your choice. In fact I know of some congregations that do not want non-Jews to wear these items. Second, many Messianic synagogues are more like churches that meet on Saturday so it may or may not be the answer.
In our congregation there are more non-Jews than Jews and I live in an area that has a very large Jewish population (talk about strongholds of resistance!). If you can’t find a chavurah or home group, why not start one with like-minded people?
Also, a friend of mine used to watch live Shabbat morning services from Baruch HaShem congregation in Dallas, TX. I haven’t watched it, but she really liked it. They have a live feed and it might be worth a shot. At least you will not be watching alone as you will have fellowship with your family. Here’s the link: http://www.baruchhashem.com/
In terms of your current church, do you think they might be open to having some teachings on the roots of their faith? Yes, I know, you’ll be accused of being a Judaizer by some. Perhaps they’d be open to an adult ed class. In addtion to Skip’s great teachings, the late Dwight Pryor also has some great teachings. He spent many years ministering to the church about the Jewish roots and Yeshua.
Here’s the link to his site:
http://jcstudies.com/index.cfm?
All the best to you in your journey. May you and your family be filled with Shalom, Donna Levin
Marc,
i feel for you and your situation. it is a very difficult thing to be in your position, not only because of your new found conviction of Torah but also your lack of community. I understand completely the feeling of not being sure of who we are, messianic , christian, etc… As a community of followers of the way here in New Orleans we have succumb to the idea that we are God fearers. The ancient terminology of Gentiles who willingly attached themselves to the one true God of Israel and who took on the torah willingly in pursuit of Him.
In regards to community, in my opinion it is not an option. You do have options though. You can drive to be a part of Roderick’s group, you can move, or you can be like Abraham and invite others into your house and share with them what God has done in your life. I would challenge you to think creatively and outside the box. Following Yeshua doesn’t have to look like “church” as you know it. It begins at home Deut. 6:4-10. Then allow the Holy Spirit to lead in your obedience to Him and He will open doors that are beyond your imagination. The question will then be, are you willing to walk through them??
Grace and Peace to you in your journey of adventure, excitement and challenge.
Shalom
> Following Yeshua doesn’t have to look like “church”…
Matt, you absolutely nailed it man!! (PS – Been thinking about you with Issac headed your way. Stay safe bro!)
For Marc,
Hi Marc, Congratulations!!!! We too have found ourselves blessed by Skip’s teaching and passion for the Word!
I entered the Messianic world back in the late 80s, early 90s in north central Ohio, where there was no fellowship!!! Now I am am in the Phoenix area, my husband and I have started our own fellowship/community in the east valley, however, I know there are many groups in the Phoenix area!
I smile at your daughter’s comment, just tell her, we are becoming more like Jesus/Yeshua because we are learning His personal beliefs and practices….remember when Paul told Timothy to study and never forsake the scriptures? Well, there was no New Testament at that time, all they had was the Torah and writings. It’s a wonderful journey, don’t go back, finish the trip….you won’t be sorry!
Shalom Shalom,
Jim and Sara
Heb. 11:6 . . .for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Dear brother,
You are in a season of personal responsibility.
Be gentle with the children as you make the transition. Make YHVH’s Holy days as delightful as and special as you can starting with Shabbat. Let them invite their friends if the parents will allow. Many of our doubting friends have truly enjoyed our Fri. eve. services and find it more difficult to criticize us for being so devoted to enjoying the things God tells us to enjoy.
Make Shabbat the central theme of the week. “Only this many days until we get to Shabbat!” “Oh look at this let’s get it for Shabbat!” etc………… Speak or sing a blessing over the children on Shabbat eve. You will be astounded at how warmly they will receive and delight in the verbal affection.
Do the same with the months. Go out and watch for the new moon. Blow the shofar when you spot it and and say special prayers. Invent a lunar calender that will help you count off the days (“Number your days that you may all gain a heart of wisdom”) to Shabbat and the Holy days. Visual aids are really necessary when you start putting your brains through the process of learning the calender.
Make the Feast’s of YHVH so much more fun than the pagan days that they prefer the days of YHVH. We used many Jewish resources to glean ideas. We threw out at least 80% but the 20% we kept made the process so much easier. We didn’t need to reinvent everything.
Let the kids know that you are all learning and that you are making your own traditions. As you try different things ask them if they would like to do it the next year and keep a journal of next years new family traditions.
Traditions are necessary. We are created to develop habits. They make life go smoothly and give us a sense of well being. We need that. Imagine if you had to think about how to do everything you do just in the first few hours of your day.
Your first few years will be a struggle. But as you get through them they will be more and more enjoyable until you will so look forward to them that you can’t imagine doing anything else. As you teach your children well community will just appear like the New Moon as you are able to bare That responsibility.
You will know God is smiling on you when your child reminds you as you order at the drive thru that it’s the week of unleavened bread, what are you thinking?
I agree with the general theme of this post. The children learn through experiencing. It will become foundational to them. The issue I have is in the “reinventing”. We who are “Messianic” Gentiles have brought our divisionary thinking into this wonderful revelation. Refusing to become “Jews”, we invent a new religion. Having felt betrayed by the traditional church, we hold onto our anti-semitisim and start new groups thinking we are now the ones who have the truth. There are now Messianic Synagogues, Messianic Churches, Karaites (reject the rabbis), Sabbath Keepers, G-d Fearers. I fear we will catch up to the daughters of Babylon in our “re-inventing Judaism” in our search for “the true biblical faith”.
G-d only authorized one religion: Judaism. He gave it to Israel through Moses. Messiah came and re-directed it back to Hashem. Paul, as Skip mentioned, lived as a Pharisee and taught the churches, Jew and Gentile.If we put aside our prejudices we will see Messiah in their writings, rituals and Torah! Don’t get me wrong, I do have hope! Not in man, but in the Holy One, Blessed be he! Paul says we will all “come into the unity of the faith” and I say Maranantha, Come Lord quickly!
Randy I have always been attracted to the Jews and Judaism. But when we first came to understand these things it became very apparent that Judaism in it’s current condition is just as pagan in it’s practices as Christianity. So we began to search out what scripture instructed and stuck with that as our guide to what we would actually practice.
Traditions help make it easier to function but when you’re brand new and you don’t know that the egg on your Passover seder plate is a Babylonian carry over that has NOTHING to do with Elohim’s holy day, it can be terribly unnerving when you find out later that you’ve simply traded one pagan tradition for another pagan tradition.
You can’t go wrong by following scripture first and exploring what others do in light of it. We should test everything before we just blindly adopt it. Most Christians have never even read through the Torah. They are clueless as to how to even begin to know whether a practice is of YHVH or not. This is nothing to divide over.
Wow! What can I say to you to change your mind about G-d’s people! G-d still speaks through the torah (lit. instruction) of the Jews! Look at the seder, how many types of Messiah are in the rituals. Many of these traditions are post-biblical, such as the Afikomen. There are dozens of Midrash that picture Messiah Yeshua, obvious to us when we read them, but blinded to them. Look up “the donkey” on Chabad.org. You may find your eyes opened too.
Many Gentile Messianics bring their Greek-black-and-white-judgmental thinking with them as they learn about the wonders of the revelations G-d gave to Israel. You cannot love their G-d and judge them so harshly. This is anti-semiticism brought over from Catholicism and her daughters. Who told you this “truth” about the egg on the seder plate. What you speak is not a Jewish view but a Gentile view. Study what the Jews say about their own traditions and you will see Messiah Yeshua in them. Disassociate from the teachings of anyone who judges G-d’s people negatively. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. G-d is their judge, not you.
I’m not upset at you, but at what damaging doctrine you have been taught, it helps no one!
Oh dear one,
20 years ago we came into this movement. Through thick and thin we’ve walked with Avinu and sorted through each thing we bring into our worship of Him. Do we worship Him the way the pagans do or do we cast that thing away from us as fast as we can? We are all learning and waking up as YHVH calls us.
I’m a Torah pursuant lover of the Jews and have my watch set to go off several times a day to remind me to pray for the peace of Jerusalem!
We are one of the only couples I know who can move in any and all Jewish, Messianic, and Christian circles and judge none of them. I can’t say that they don’t judge us but that’s their business between YHVH and themselves. We are simply very careful to adopt practices for our own personal worship that don’t include anything pagan no matter who else practices it.
In our ignorance grace covers us but once we know the truth we must make decisions. We would rather offend man if necessary than YHVH our Elohim.
Shabbat Shalom
Randy I promise you I did not read Skips post this morning before I responded to you.
One of the things I left out that I would like to address here is “G-d only authorized one religion: Judaism. and; “G-d still speaks through the torah (lit. instruction) of the Jews! Look at the seder”
Most folks confuse Torah G-ds literal instructions handed down to Israel with the intended purpose of imaging it to the nations, and
Halachah Rabbinic interpretation handed down to and imposed on Israel with the intended purpose of comanding how to personally shmar/guard G-ds commandments as they walked them out. There is NOTHING more divisive in the body of Judaism than halachah. I dare say that is precisely what you and I are locked into right now.
Yeshua Messiah came to correct and re-directed certain Halachot back to Torah. This is our intention as we follow Him and sort through Rabbinic teachings.
You must do what your conscience tells you to do. I have no problem with that. You will simply not find an egg mentioned anywhere in the Passover of the Torah let alone commanded. You will also not find it mentioned on the night Yeshua was betrayed.
Therefore if you come to our Pesach seder you will not find it on your seder plate.
If I come to your home I will find it there.
Shalom Shalom
Oh.. PAM!! I love what you wrote! I would love to connect by email~ MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Here’s the seder you will have if you keep to a “biblical” Passover: You will probably sacrifice a lamb and paint your doorposts, even though G-d commanded you to present it to the priests at the Temple, which no longer stands; you won’t drink wine or grape juice, not commanded in the Bible, you will eat matzah, but since you don’t honor the Talmud, you’ll probably eat those round communion wafers. You’ll won’t break the Afikomen, hide it in a linen, or take it up to the farthest place in your house, because that’s not in the Bible (Sorry Jesus). You would eat a bitter herb, which one? No charoset, not Biblical. No four cups, no haggadah, no blessings or songs. Not in the Torah.
See where this leads to if you are really going to be a Biblicist/Saducee/Karaite you can’t just lick the cream off the Torah and avoid the things you don’t understand. That is the prevailing method of spiritual rape that the Gentiles are doing to the Torah of the Jews.
Oh, and unless your husband is circumcised or your father (if you are single) you can’t celebrate the seder. (I would give you a loophole, but we’ll just stick with the literal interpretation, and forget all that rabbinic hooplah!)
Here’s the proper understanding of the egg from Wikipedia:
“Beitzah — A hard-boiled egg, symbolizing the korban chagigah (festival sacrifice) that was offered in the Temple in Jerusalem and roasted and eaten as part of the meal on Seder night. Although both the Pesach sacrifice and the chagigah were meat offerings, the chagigah is commemorated by an egg, a symbol of mourning (as eggs are the first thing served to mourners after a funeral), evoking the idea of mourning over the destruction of the Temple and our inability to offer any kind of sacrifices in honor of the Pesach holiday. Since the destruction of the Temple, the beitzah serves as a visual reminder of the chagigah; it is not used during the formal part of the seder, but some people eat it with saltwater as the first course of the meal.”
My guess is that Christians who have abandoned the Easter Fertility Rituals are freaked out about the egg and transfer their understanding to the Jewish practice.
“My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge”
“Who told you…..?”
Rosh Hashanah is coming, will He find you sleeping?
Hi Marc,
I feel your pain as I have been through this as well with my family…having a family seems to amplify the urgency and burden to “get it right”.
In short, follow Scripture. We, like you, looked into Messianic Congergations and other options but found a lot of Greek thought patterns and man-made rules. While there are many wonderful people in those kinds of congergations, a lot of them are doing a lot to “look” Jewish whether they are doing it intentionally or not…For me and my family, this was not the route we were to go.
We observe Shabbat as a family and study Torah as a family. About every-other-week, we gather together with other friends who are like-minded. This group has been as large as 4 other families but, right now, it is only one other family as others have moved out of the region. We are also faithful to gather together on the Feasts and observe them together….We really try to keep it that simple.
While there is a desire to have a more routine and fixed “gathering” structure, we have found this to be our “wilderness” experience, of sorts. It has drawn us closer to YHWH and it has drawn us closer as a family.
The good news is that we aren’t too far away. Skip said that you live in Phoenix…we live down East of Tucson. While I am sure there are other, like-minded, believers in Phoenix, if you are interested, you are more than welcome to come and enjoy Shabbat with our family and/or some of our friends when we are getting together. Additionally, we will be observing the upcomming Sukkot by camping out…you are welcome to join us for that if you would like. (We make it our annual “family camping trip” but with a lot of meaning beyond simply camping.)
Shalom
James! Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
All of the responses are excellent..and full of love and mercy and guidance. i only offer a few words as one that has been searching for the ‘truth’ and been on this journey for the past 30 years…having gone through every phase of what everyone has experienced and voiced, I can only offer one added thought. It is simply a journey….there will be mountain top highs and deep valley ravine lows…but praise Him in all paths you find yourself in. For HE is there…in each and every stopover…HE is waiting….HE is always guiding – HE is in charge.
So if you find yourself for a time or stop over in such a place that teaches against Torah – praise Him and pray for the Light to shine in the dark areas; when He tells you to move on – you will know deep inside – obey. Move on .. even if you don’t know where you are going…praise him in the hallway until he opens the door.
Our path has been full of light and what seemed like darkness….and yet .. I am just now learning that He is in both spots….it is >I< who choose to open my eyes are not.
May you and all of us have 'eyes to see' and walk in the Light. This is a perfect opportunity to choose LIGHT … this month of Elul….
blessings to all of you as you continue your search!
Pam Staley
When began this walk we were in a pentecostal church that persecuted us and thought we were trying to become Jewish. We stayed for as long as the Father led us to, but in the meantime and contacted a couple that had left our church for the same reason, and began studying with them. Not long after we had decided to leave our church and wholeheartedly commit to this walk and study with this couple that our group just exploded in growth. We went from 2 or 3 couples to about 8 and then kept growing. We outgrew houses. And now we have a small building that we meet in. We didn’t advertise, but people heard and came anyway. We didn’t even know there were any like minded believers in our town besides this one other couple. I’m sure it is the same in your town. There are people that believe like you do. The Father will connect you in His timing. Pray and ask for His will – He will show you what to do and when to do it. And He will send you fellowship with other like minded believers.
Cheryl! Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
I live in a small city in BC Canada and struggle with the same thing. I have not been attending church now for about a year. A couple of my friends and I get together Saturdays to read scripture, listen to teaching on it and eat together. We keep Yeshua the focus but even to suggest to my friends that this is what we are doing brings the words “you are not under the law”. I am fully aware that Yeshua has redeemed us from our sins and He has canceled all the curses against us but what about the other scriptures about following God’s instructions?
Here is a reply you can give them if they will hear it:
I am not under the law, I can’t be, I am dead to sin and alive to righteousness. It is no longer I that live but Messiah that lives in me. My baptism was a washing of the dead in preparation for my physical resurrection. I can do nothing, the Messiah in me, he does the works. He gets the glory! For of HIm, and through Him and to HIm are all things!
Blessings,
Randy
Here’ a possible reply:
I am not under the law. I am dead to sin and alive unto righteousness. It is no longer I that live but Messiah who lives in me. It is He that does the works of the law as He has always done. Yeshua HaMashiach is the same yesterday, today and forever. He inspired me, He enabled me, and He will finish the work in righteousness! He gets all the glory, for of HIm and through HIm and to Him are all things!
Blessings!
Randy
I appreciate the sentiment and integrity of your suggestion, but the problem is that these words carry so many different MEANINGS within the Christian and Messianic communities that they all need careful elaboration and explanation. For example, to say, “I am not under the Law” creates enormous misinterpretation problems since that could mean Torah doesn’t apply to me. Paul uses the Greek word nomos in at least 3 different senses and without spelling these out, all kinds of Christian confusion can occur. So, to begin with this phrase without further explanation might not be much help.
Thank you so much for writing this letter Marc. You have expressed my struggles so well and allowed me to benefit from the wisdom of the group. We too are without community. We don’t even have a local church as we live among the LDS and the others are so far into legalism I can’t even venture in the door. (legalism, as in earning your salvation, or being specifically picked to be saved, though they wouldn’t say it that way). I have tried home fellowships but that group is way out in the “grace” only thought.
It might be lonely, but I look at it like being in the desert. Sometimes God just wants to get you alone to talk to you. It is difficult to be different.
And at least your wife is on board, my husband thinks I’m crazy. He is caught up in dispensationalism. I know he loves me though, because he will discuss these things with me for hours and doesn’t interfere when I teach these things to the children. I pray that God will open his eyes and heart one day.
Jill~ Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
Marc your situation is just like mine but I urge to read Skip’s Today Word of August 19 I think it will help you a lot with your predicament.
God bless you.
Hey Marc, I hear you loud and clear. We have the same dilema. I started learning about the Jewish Jesus about 6 years ago and my husband was not “drinking the same water” so to speak. I introduced Passover to replace the Easter celebration at home and it was a big hit. We’ve been doing it now for 5 years. Now is the time for Christmas. Even though we have had a few Hanukkah celebrations with the manorah, it went along side Christmas. This year I am selling all my “christmas” stuff in a yard sale and doing away with that holiday feast all together, but what do I tell the grandchildren? How do I present a biblical approach to the season without totally confusing them and then some other Christian relatives?
I would love to fellowship in a Messianic assembly but I have found contentment and growth and love with where I am. We follow the feasts and appointed times at home. Our prayer life with the Talit is our own business, at home. If freinds ask, I tell them boldly. If they don’t fully inderstand I know secretly they are curiously interested. Live by your convictions brother and teach your family at home. It will all work out!
Hello and shalom Marc and family,
so many wonderful replies here! So I’ll chime in to say we are only 2 years in to learning to celebrate the feasts as a family, and 2 years “out” of nominal church. You CAN do it, just
ask the Father for guidance every day, He will answer, and He will bless you as you learn
to obey Him! Just check Deut 28 when you need a boost! Our kids are learning more
valuable lessons than ever, and in these times this is critical, and yes, we probably aren’t “doing” the feasts “right” but we are sure trying, and trying to have a great time with it. Notice that xmass comes at the darkest time of the year, just stay “in” a little more and study and nurture on your relationship with Adonai. And when the family feels lonely, remember and study about those persecuted for meeting with a few scraps of a Bible, compared to how we can pop online to fellowship with others so easily. Also I think it is hard for us to grasp the passion and joy of Yeshua’s followers after His resurrection! We NEED to recapture that, oh Father that is my prayer! Then to consider they were being persecuted at the same time! Same is occurring in far away lands today, China, Africa, etc. We are in a MOST exciting time, seeing and BEING a part of fulfilled prophecy!! Lastly, our family relies greatly on online teaching at times, such as Passion for Truth ministries linked above. Add 119 Ministries to your short list of go-to places, and be sure to check their world map with folks who have signed in as beacons for the faith once delivered: http://119ministries.com/find-others HallaluYah!!, praise His Mighty Name, know He IS on the move! Every couple weeks or so, even in our small, semi rural community, we meet someone else drawn to Hebrew Roots to share with. We pray that for you as well. Shalom shalom, the Dawson family
Dawson Family! Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
Marc,
I think most of us can totally relate. When my eyes were opened, I was so anti anything “churchy” that I almost threw the baby out with the bath water completely and probably offended a few I was around with my new zeal and convictions. Fast forward several years later and the Lord has shown me He has a remnant in more places than I thought. I feel I am a bridge for those with open eyes and open hearts that are hungry for MORE, if you know what I mean. I found a lot of the messianic congregations to be very dry and without the Holy Spirit. I go to as many gatherings with some of my favorite teachers as I can, listen to them online, and fellowship with my local church body. The Lord has given me entrance into a lot of their lives just through good old fashioned relationship. They know I celebrate the feasts and don’t do Easter or Christmas. I do NOT condemn them for where they are nor do I try to convince them that where they are is wrong. I used to be them. I just didn’t know yet. I simply share why I do what I do, try to be real and the overflow of love for the Lord draws them to want more. It is a journey for sure.
Marc,
We walk the same pathway and you are not alone. We are beginning our 3rd year of messianic studies and live in South Bend, Indiana and have yet to find anyone like-minded in our area. It is a lonely walk, but the rewards are still better than what we are missing at church. I miss the fellowship and worship, but I would not trade the growth and fellowship I’ve had with my husband through our studies each Shabbat. We are thinking of traveling to Chicago (90 miles) once a month to join a new messianic congregation and support the pastor who has been working with a Jewish ministry for several years. Keep moving forward – you will not be disappointed in the process with Adoni!
Karen! Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
I was in your place for a while, tho I started learning by attending a Messianic Congregation’s Feast events. In the end, I realized I don’t fit in the staunchly Messianic Jewish line of thought (tho I have gained a love for the tallit. Do a word study on the word Kanoph-wings/Corner of the garment sometime for some beautiful pictures of YHVH’s love for us.)
I’ve found a Hebrew Roots Christian Fellowship which fits me much better. They have a website, which I listed as mine – The Vineyard of Yahweh.
However, I live four hours from them, so most of the time, my Sabbaths are spent fellowshipping online – watching their live service on Friday evenings, Arthur Bailey of House of Israel on Sabbath morning, and Passion for Truth/Jim Staley late Sabbath afternoon/evening.
Don’t give up. Ask YHVH to guide you to the right fellowship, at the right time!
Hi Marc,
My name is David Jensen, and my wife and I live near Seattle. How well we can identify with your situation. In 2008, we also had God’s revelation about the Jewishness of our faith, His continuing love and faithfullness to Israel and the Jewish people. This also led us to become aware of the “blindness” that is common in the new testament church due basically to Replacement Theology that has been taught by the seminaries for centuries. We also became aware that we no longer fit in at our church of 15 years. When we tried explaining this new revelation to our friends, we were also branded as trying be Jewish or had been hyjacked by a cult. But we had to remember that they have not been blessed with this new revelation. And it is a blessing. We joined a Messianic Synagogue (congregation) later that year and are truly blessed to worship with Jewish and other Gentile believers. It is a congregation made up of both. To your point about wearing a kippa or prayer shawl, we have to remember that God does not call we Gentiles to be Jewish.
‘ He calls us to draw alongside our Jewish brothers and sisters, believers or not. and identify with our Jewish messiah. We see Him now through Jewish eyes rather than Greek eyes. At the same time, I do not wear a kippa or prayer shawl. In Ephesians chapter two, the apostle Saul (Paul) tells us of God’s heart for “the one new man” coming together under Yeshua’s banner, Well, there can be no “one new man” if all are Jewish or all are Gentile. But as Gentile believers in the Jewish messiah, we do become spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham, as the Jewish people, again believers or not, are blood sons and daughters of Abraham. As a result, we also become spiritual citizens of Israel. Although this new journey can be blurry at times, God has chosen you and your wife, out of the many, to this new revelation of Himself. He has called you to be a Messianic Gentile and called you to worship according to the roots of our faith. Continue to pray for all Christians to have the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) remove the veil that has been placed over their eyes, through no fault of their own, so that God can bless them as He has blessed you. Baruch Haba Bashem Adonai!
Two things: Who is a Jew? If you think it is just physical look at the genealogy of Yeshua. Were you grafted in? Into what? Where do wild olives come from? Two: Who is Israel? Who is Judah? Who is Ephraim? Read Paul quoting Hosea. Who are the people who became “not a people”? And then when they were “not a people” G-d “called them out” through Messiah and to Messiah, those whom Paul calls “now a people”.
“He is a Jew (Yehuda) which is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit,and not in the letter; whose praise (Yehud) is not of men, but of G-d.”
“Wherefore remember, that you (being) in time past Gentiles in the flesh…”
When you answer these questions you may change your mind about who you are, who the Jews are, who is Israel, and what and who you were called to and out of!
Blessings!
Randy
Shalom Marc and all,
Kadima: (Hebrew: קדימה, literally: “Forward”)
Soon it will be time to see all that we’ve been learning come together in a plan of action. We know by now that it is the return from diaspora known as the Greater Exodus, the restoration of all things, the camps in the wilderness and on into the wedding feast of the Lamb. If we are tracking with the various sources of news being compared to prophetic “triggers” then we either move forward or face greater stress and anxiety for the lack of a pragmatic response to the precious insight we’ve been uniquely privileged to consider. We are already seeing some nearly lose their minds that do not have the fullness of the ‘comforter’ living in them. The dilemma is understandable but must not be allowed to be a dilemma so long that it builds more lack of faith than faith itself.
The greatest distance between us and our destiny is not the physical journey between here and Jerusalem, it is, of course, the spiritual journey. This is a process that is foreign to the experience of all who are not accustomed to the individual and corporate moving of the Ruach haKodesh on the scale that we now anticipate. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken and to contend with this leaves only one choice, works of faith commensurate with the Word for the coming dilemma. Community is now the concept on nearly everyone’s mind. This is a community of those who, unlike the first exodus, know Him face to face, who know His voice and love the truth, a body that walks in holiness and relationship with Him. The betrothed walk in their marriage covenant, the Torah, even as they anticipate their wedding night!
I would submit that the difference between the sleeping virgins having oil in their lamps or not is the issue of choice, fear or works of faith, for the most part. Something had conspired to result in the filling of those oil lamps or dereliction of the process somewhere along the way. Would that be fear that caused half the sleepy bride to fail to enter in? Likely so. It is already a component of our faith that we find ourselves standing alone, taking a stand for our faith, more than we probably have in a long time. Americans, for all their foibles, have been a blessed people, they truly own the fruitfulness of Ephraim. Like the one lepper that returned to Yeshua to say thank you and was made whole, it is time for us to return and be made whole. That was one in ten. According to Eddie Chumney, the Rabbis say that 80% of the household of Israel stayed behind in Egypt. That’s even better! Two out of ten! The parable of the 10 virgins seems to indicate that a great sifting goes on to improve the ratio to 5 out of 10! Still, it is clearly a mere remnant of the ones we would have hoped for. For Lot’s wife it was a tough issue.
Today I am working with believers that have been spared the shedding of their blood in genocidal events occuring in living memory. There are scores of them waiting to guide us on the last leg of our journey. They have come into priestly callings in exodus events that we know to be genocide and are our brothers and sisters. There is a reason for the shedding of this blood, the enemy does not want to see the Word have his way. But, the shedding of blood is holy to the L-rd. A cursory look at the nations that know the shedding of blood in their formation and the spiritual connection to the the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacov clearly indicates the location of the bride today. I submit to you that the closer to Israel you find one of these, the greater the numbers of the bride will be later in the Greater Exodus compared to the ‘uttermost parts of the earth’. A hint: it is likely that a great number will also come up through Egypt!
Scriptures say that this people are so great that they cannot be numbered, that the original exodus is forgotten if favor of this one. We know this. We have been hearing this over and over for some years now. Like children waiting to jump into water, our flesh says ” Wait for someone else to jump in and see how the water is” Those of us that have watched the Ruach assembling the first camps in the wilderness have noticed that these locations often seem to be in environments that are inhospitable to the flesh, particularly, too hot or too cold and certainly so remote that we must have a measure of capability to look after ourselves. It seems that the prerequisite is to walk not by sight but by faith, so to speak.
If we know that we are leaving the nations behind in favor of standing in His presence, let it be so, according to His Word, the One that redeems us out of the nations as His portion, His first fruits! Kadima! There is a wedding to attend! Kadima!
Shalom in Him,
Will C
Skip, Wow so its not just us! Myself and my wife have recently been acused of being extreme, no evidence was brought before us that would support such accusations, other than our desire to study the Hebraic roots. All we have ever done is share with great excitment on many occasions the awsomeness of the word, when looked at through Hebraic eyes. We have found a Messianic Bible study group thats made up of many from the local area, but our main sunday church are categorically against any and all study of the roots of our faith.
Strange that!!, as last year the Lord gave me Jeremiah 6 v16-19.v16 This is what the LORD says: “Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ 17 I appointed watchmen over you and said, ‘Listen to the sound of the trumpet!’ But you said, ‘We will not listen.’18 Therefore hear, O nations; observe, O witnesses, what will happen to them. 19 Hear, O earth: I am bringing disaster on this people, the fruit of their schemes, because they have not listened to my words and have rejected my law.
Interesting scripture, it clearly tells us to make a decision, and to seek the “Ancient paths”, also goes on to say how the attitudes will be of the many towards such a call to seek the True way. Clearly many churches now follow traditions of man, and the essence of church and what it should be is lost, God’s way when studied and applied to our lives as per Torah living through the Grace of Yeshua becomes so real.
Oh may the voices of those whose eyes are opened bring revelation and life to those who are perishing.
May our mighty Lord God raise up the prophets to proclaim the prophetic revelations of scripture in these end times & may His Heart be made known, and His Judgements also.
May those who walk in darkness see the light.
May we gentiles stirr Israel to jealousy through our observance to Torah & Grace living.
May God begin to knit us together, we His Bride, as we rise to become the Church of the living. Blessing’s in Yeshua’s mighty name. Simon x
Simon! Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
Marc,
What if it is not time for you to leave the church? I think that churches need people to demonstrate Torah and the Hebraic worldview to them. This is a painfully slow and often times painful process, but if you and I do not do it, who will? The Church needs revelation just as much as the world does (obviously not in everything). I speak from personal experience. i to feel like a stranger in my own church most times. I do not know what God has planned for the church, but I do know that they need our help. We are still living in egypt (metaphorically) and are crying out for help. I also live in AZ and attend Roderick’s group. If you are feeling to alone I would come have coffee with you so that you can be around like minded people. My email is rickhaz61@yahoo.com
stay strong my friend,
Ricky
If you have children it is very hard to stay in a church. It sows confusion in the children. I teach my children at home and my wife and I join a small 7th Day home group Friday evening when the children are asleep. My children love Shabbat and Sukkot. We left behind Harvest parties, Christmas trees at the altar, and the Easter Fetility Festival. The Torah teaches us to teach our children, not the Sunday School. We long for community and community worship, but we can not compromise the truth.
Blessings,
Randy
I will contact you soon Ricky – Thanks! ~MB
Thank you Skip for posting this and thank you ALL so very much for your most helpful comments! I trust and know that the Father will continue lead me, both by the Spirit and the Word. As a disciple of Yeshua for nearly 20 years I look at this as a major growth opportunity in my journey with Him.
It’s comforting to know that we are not alone (I knew we weren’t) and I’m grateful for the others that DO share the Hebrew Worldview here in the Phoenix area. I am a warrior and can usually tough it out on my own, but as expressed, my wife and I are principally concerned for our children, plus we know that we need community as well.
You have all given me much food for thought… I will be digesting it for a while.
Gratefully,
Mark (aka, Marc – I’ll answer to anything, Skip
Years ago I went to a Missions conference where missionaries talked about living with their families in an alien culture. That was the beginning of my road to the roots of Christianity because here were older vibrant believers who had spent a lifetime without traditional “community” for themselves or their children and who had lived a life like their neighbors waiting for the “witness” of their lives to attract one or more people that they could disciple. The older Wycliff translators who had spent years before they could even speak fluently to their neighbors were especially encouraging and joyful even with stories of hardship and some tragedy. Abraham only had his wife and Lot and the others that HE had gotten (the Rabbis say he had brought them to the knowledge of the one true God). My husband and I have been living apart from traditional Christianity (but in personal fellowship with many Sunday Christians) by observing the Shabbat and Festival days for over 20 years. We have been part of Messianic communities, we have been part of like minded home fellowships and we are now in a time of finding our way of attending a conservative synagogue without giving the idea that we are converting. Our experience is that God leads us each year to the group of people we need to be connected with for the work that he wants to do in our lives during the experience of the seasons of the festivals of God. There is no formula for creating a new Chrisondom. We are part of the Commonwealth of Israel and yet Israel is in disarray. Every year my husband and I have the wonderful experience after the 8th Great Day of Sukkot of being totally clueless about God’s plan for the next year and we have to go to him and ask Him to reveal to us in the winter what He wants to plant (during Hanukkah) and then grow and harvest (during Pesach, Shavuot & Sukkot). Sometimes this involves activities with a specific community or other family. Sometimes it is the developing of our spiritual characters through personal challenges and hardships. After each year and then looking back at a group of years we see the purpose and pattern but not really as we look at the future. Everyone that we know who has not exploded or imploded after learning the Hebraic roots of our faith has begun by just reading (not even deep study) the Torah portions “out loud” each year. To be honest it was only in the 5th year through the Torah that we started connecting the dots and having things organically connect. It took till after the 7th year before we began to really understand the New Testament in context. Of course we didn’t have all the resources that everyone has today but there may have been a protection to us in that we didn’t get information overload. My advice is to read Psalm 27 each day until Yom Kippur like the Jews do and “Kvah/Wait on YHVH and be of good courage and He shall strengthen your heart.
Rhonda~ Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
Wow, Skip, I just send your letter over to my son. I told him that it was so nice to hear from a man who asks the right questions….like you….The answer for you Skip is simple…you will never be able to go back once you have tasted the Torah…you like all of us have been blessed. If you will read Skips letter titled “The End of Theology” you will be able to explain to your family that learning History is more important than Church Theology. They will get it…My husband I live in a rural community. We have a Friday night candle lighting to start the Shabbat…we read the parsha…and close with a blessing…since my 88 year old mom came to visit she joins in and loves it..we schedule our year around the Feast Days, we eat Kosher…and we trust that YHVH will joins us all someday…when that day comes we will be ready…and now that we have found Skip we are understanding how the Hellenized Greek influenced our lives..now we Hebrew.
The End of Theology article Ruth mentions above can be found on the
May 27,2012 edition of Today’s Word. Sometimes when I can’t find something by using Skip’s search engine (as in this case) I Google “Skip Moen”‘and what ever I’m looking for.
To add my 2 shekels worth to this conversation let me just say to Mark: ” YHWH will make a way, be faithful and He will direct your paths.” Sounds as if you are where most have been and many still are. Hang in there. Hear and obey. No great wisdom or new strategies offered. I do believe that one day, at that great marriage feast, we will quickly forget the lack of fellowship we feel now and simply enjoy a 1,000 years of brotherly love, camaraderie and kinship- with the King and His extended family (us!). Our prayers are with you till then. Shalom.
Thanks Michael and Arnella for the date to Skips article. I like this article so much that I have saved it on my desk top and print it often to hand out. It seems so current to me that I thought it was within the past couple of weeks…Shalom
Marc,
Visit Calvary Chapel Church in Tempe on Price and McClintock. Tempe is near the city of Phoenix. We are Hebraic -minded. Pastor has a Shofar and teaches about the feasts. There is a Menorah in the lobby. We have speakers from Isreal and many from our congregation visit there.
Lois
To all of you Israelites, who are in the dispersion and longing to come home: God has called us out of Babylon. We are now witnessing the end of the age. In 2009 the exile of Israel spoken of by Ezekiel ended and 2010 was the first year in a new 7-year cycle. Some believe this to be the last 7. What is happening to us is simply the re-gathering of Israel and we are soon to be united with our brother Judah in the last days. This was Yeshua’s mission from the beginning, to bring home the lost sheep of Israel. You are now in the wilderness of the people spoken of by the prophets, and soon to enter the promised land lead by your King, Yeshua. In the meantime you can all visit http://www.passionfortruth.com
Jim Staley is an excellent teacher, and they broadcast a live shabbat service every Saturday night at 6 pm EST. They are launching a website called http://www.theregathering.com so like minded people can find each other and gather in small groups to start satellite congregations. Our family has attended on-line for the past 6 months, as we have no suitable congregations near us.
If you want to learn more about God’s astronomy and the AMAZING things that have happened in the skies since 2010 to confirm the last days, visit http://www.inthatday.net
This is the most exciting time to be alive!
Nina~
Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
We are in the same situation. We discovered the Hebrew roots of the faith through the rituals of Pesach and a book: Total Immersion: A Mikvah Antholgy. Long story short, when we were led to move across the state G-d led me to live Jewishly. I donned a kipa, wore Tzitzit and greout my beard and payot. Good side: I have been given hundreds of opportunities to witness for my faith and am a well known site in this community of Reformed Jews who mostly blend in to the Gentile backdrop. We have attended various small groups of varying beliefs about Torah including hosting a study in our home for several years. We now attend a Bible study of 7th Day Church of G-d folks and I study with my family at home. I have come to believe though that community is essential to re-enforce this path. May G-d bless your journey!
I was looking for Carl.. mmm.. where are you Carl with all of this?
from comments above “you can never be able to go back once you’ve tasted Torah.”
Can you go back once you have tasted Christ himself?
We all know that Torah leads us TO!!! Christ!, and if we want to go back to Torah than it’s like spitting( do not mean to be rude, trying to show the level of disrespect and disgrace) in to the face of Jesus as He hangs on the cross to give us the new covenant.
Dear Mark,
please hold fast to Jesus Christ He will lead you,
no you do not need to go to messianic congregation (for this very thought crossed my mind a number of times, thinking maybe they are doing something right), but even if the message is off in the church, we should not go back to man covering their head (Ap. Paul teaches in the New Testament, that is not right),
what I would suggest, if you feel that the teaching is off, YOU DO THE STUDY, YOU PREACH AND TEACH EVERYONE THE CORRECT WAY!
It is always easy to run, but when are we going to take some responsibility?
I do what I can: I study the Word of God, I go to jails and preach
I am priviledged to have a radio show for 30 min and I always teach the Word of God, by praying, studying and some more studying and more praying.
Do what you can where you are!
and like another one of the contributors said: God will lead you! He is faithfull and because you have questions: That is a good sign! You are growing! God bless you! Stay in the freedom granted by Christ!
I love this group,
and Dr. Moen thank you for your wonderful pictures: Their HIGH quality always amazes me.
Again,
Thank you
Elena Trukhan,
The servant of Christ.
Elena, I don’t want to get this conversation derailed from responding to Mark, but I do want to respond to your comment on regards to a man wearing a head covering. It is my understanding that Paul addressed the Corinthian men not to cross dress and cover their heads with a veil, not a tallit.
Mark, bless you as you find fellowship with others in your community, be they like-minded in your new mindset, or not. We have very few and far between like-minded folks here in Australia, so we do keep fellowship with other Christians, our kids are involved in various youth activities related to their ages and interests. I noticed a few folk who began following Torah were quickly shunned and even excommunicated because of the fearmongering that seems to occur if people misunderstand where you are coming from. They call us Judaizers etc. I choose to keep in relationship with people in many different walks. I would love to worship or study with people local to us, but there is not that option. We considered the kids very much, and did not want them to cut themselves off from fellowship with others. Like-mindedness is wonderful, but exclusiveness can make you and your family alone. Don’t rush to change things too quickly. Study lots with your wife and take the time to travel across town to meet with those who are available to you. Just don’t cut yourselves off from other people too quickly, seek to live a quiet life and maintain fellowship with people who love your family as you learn and relearn.
I have loved reading all of these replies and am so grateful for finding this site. I have agreed with so
much of what others have shared and will add my own words of sympathy and exhortation. Since I
have a tendency to go on and on and on….I will do a list to keep myself in check.
1. The Old Testament distinguishes between two major people groups: Jews (the chosen people) and goyim (everyone else). The New Testament similarly distinguishes between two major people groups:
true believers in the Messiah, whether Jew or Gentile, (also the chosen people, but not replacing the Jews), and everyone else.
2. We all know Jews and Christians who are devout and sincere in their desire to follow God, and those
who are not. Both are found in every synagogue and in every church denomination.
3. Denominations, I believe, are created when someone has a great insight, and then it becomes solidified into a whole doctrine, with its legalistic ramifications. I have not personally found any denomination that has a monopoly on the Truth, but I have found sincere truth preached in most of the ones I have experienced. I have also not really felt totally at home in any church I have been part of, and that covers many denominations, including Messianic, but in each one I have learned and grown and developed long-lasting relationships with other believers. I do not want to be part of anything that is in danger of becoming like another denomination, with the idea that its adherents have the only handle on the truth.
4. As believers, we are responsible to hold up EVERY teaching to the light of
Scripture and to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, to seek God with all of ourselves, and to share the
Truth as it is given to us. It is important to keep lines of communication open.
5. As parents, WE are responsible to teach our children and to provide them with an environment that will foster their spiritual growth; any church we attend helps with that process but does not relieve us
or our responsibility to monitor our children’s spiritual growth. Our homes are all home churches,
but outside churches can provide fellowship, prayer support, and a sense of community.
6. It is tragic that the church has become distanced from its Jewish roots, but there is a movement abroad in many denominations to go back to these roots. In fact, whenever people find out I am Jewish, they are always interested in knowing more; for example, my pastor in our little IPHC congregation in Stedman, NC invited Chosen People ministries to come and do a Seder demonstration. It was packed out. He told me he wouldn’t have attempted it had I not been there to help – making soup with matzo balls, charoses, etc. Many people are clueless but not antagonistic.
7. Finally, and I somehow have managed to go on and on, even a list, we must remember,
and this is directed at myself most of all, not to judge others for their beliefs, but to love other believers and those outside the fold with the love that characterizes and defines us as followers of Yeshua.
The transaction between God and me that brought me into His fold was simple yet life-shattering, and
I work out my salvation daily. Yet what most impacts others in my world and draws them to Him through my life is the love I am able to express for Him and toward them; when I am gone others may not remember what I believed in, but they will remember whether I faithfully represented the One
in Whom I believe.
Thank you so much Emily. I really appreciate your thoughtful & well-organized list (my wife is also a “list” person LOL!), very encouraging!
~MB
Your question really hit home with me, I feel the same way. Once you have studied and have a Hebrew Worldview, it is hard to sit under the teaching of anyone who doesn’t. I’ve also struggled with Easter and Christmas celebration, which I used to celebrate (and taught my children to observe) I’ve been blessed in two ways. 1) I’ve been worshipping for the last 12 years, on Shabbat, at a Messianic Congregation; which I drive 38mi each way to attend. I’d say 3/4 of us are gentile believers and the emphasis is on Yeshua the Messiah. We celebrate all the feasts and I love participating in the worship and dance. No one is required to wear a prayer shawl or kippa and my husband has never had one on his head or shoulders; though many do. Our Rabbi took 5yrs to teach through the book of Hebrews (with many interruptions for special feasts and guest speakers from Israel. I really feel at home there but; there are many messianic congregations that do emphasize legalism and you would need to watch out for that. In our’s we are free to keep kosher or not; the emphasis is on Yeshua/Christ. I’ve learned much about the differences in the Hebrew worldview (your whole life) and the Greek worldview (a set aside time). None of my grown children attend there and it can create conflicts in scheduling events; but they all want to attend our Passover Seder.
2)I’ve been studying with Chuch Missler and Koinonia Instutute for the last 19 years; and have just finished 2-3credit college courses in Ezekiel. How do you discuss that with anyone who is unfamiliar with a Hebrew worldview intensive study of the Prophets? I have more fellowship in those online classes than in any Greek style Christian I’ve ever been in, though I attend one on Sundays.
Both experiences have led me to a deeper walk than I ever experienced in all the years I just attended regular church even though I took volunteer leadership positions at times. I cannot turn back and fit in to the old ways and teaching that I now know are just not right. I struggle with the question – why don’t they know? – they love the Lord; but only surface study the OT, if at all.
We are accountable for what we know and how we represent Him to others and we need to do so in love.
May the Lord Bless and Keep you, Marc, and all your family. If you rightly represent Him, you’ll draw the ones He sends you to you and they will be willings hearers. Trust Him. Le’chaim Arlene
Marc,
Please forgive me if this sounds very direct but your salvation and that of your family is at stake.
So many of us out here share your plight. First, I would suggest you get down on your knees and tell your story to Yah. Keep telling him every night until you get His answer. You will get it and it may not seem right at the time but follow His direction. Next, get out of the Sunday Church–you now belong to Yah and going to a Sunday Church violates and damages your personal relationship, not to mention the confusion and even doubts that will plague you. You are where Satan wants you, one foot on each side. We can not afford to be lukewarm when time is of essence and very very short.
I have been a Sabbath Keeper since the mid 80s, I married a nonbeliever in1998 and have spent the past 13.5 years alone with my spiritual beliefs, sometimes even compromising them, until my husband has finally come to the truth. Whew, what a trip, one I would not make again, except for the fact that now my husband has a grasp at the golden ring we all strive for. It is so great to see Yah woo him..
Read everything you can that supports the Sabbath, the Sacred Names, and the Truth and pray, pray pray. Yah will bring you people when He’s ready and you are steady. You don’t need the prayer shawl, there may come a time when you may be interested in certain items, maybe not. One book I highly recommend is The Messiah by Todd Bennett. It is a very dense book that approaches the scriptures from the Eastern perspective, (which is the perspective of the scriptural writers). I have learned so much and will have to read it more than once to get it all in. You can get it at Amazon or Todd’s website. Also visit websites such as 119 Ministries where you can physically locate yourself and see if there are others in your area to fellowship with. Until then, keep reading, keep fellowshipping with your family, establish a Sabbath routine, and keep praying, keep praying, keep praying. I too am praying for you. You are not alone. There are many Skype groups and webinars that are offered so that isolated folks like us can get a sense of fellowship, study, ask questions, and learn. I will locate the websites that have been most beneficial to me and post those for your consideration, as well as a webinar or 2 that may be good. Sometimes when you first become convicted webinars and such may be too much all at once, so I would be very selective on what you choose. Shalom Brother and welcome aboard, hang on tight cuz you are on the ride of and for your life.
Donna! I think we are CONNECTED!!
Right?
Hugs
Chari xo
Marc
The thing that stands out for me from the above is: keep HaShem’s Appointed Times. He calls them His feasts for a reason.
I was introduced to my Torah group by a friend who told me: “Now you sound just like Erika” when I explained why our family don’t do christmas and easter anymore. Erika turned out to be a Torah believer and I became part of the most amazing no-nonsense, straight shooting, YHWH first, group of people that admits they don’t have everything together yet, but they will continue to seek the heart of the Father in all they do.
This year I am keeping my 8year old out of school for the feasts for the first time. You can not imagine how special he feels when he explains to the Christian kids that these feasts are Prophecies about what God will do and did and is doing. And then he tells them that it is fun, because the Only Living God chose these dates Himself. That is good, because then we know we can not get the dates wrong and we know we will have fun that will last.
His friends all keep checking with me about the feasts and now some parents have started asking questions.
We are indeed a peculiar set-apart people. The road is not easy, just good …
Hey Marc…. sorry that I am late to the party response. I read over most of the responses and really I cannot add to them because they are all so great. So stay plugged in to this community because they are all great.
One thing I will share is in regard to your kids. My 15 year old daughter responded the same way your daughter did….must be in the pre-teen/teenager genes LOL. It took her some time and I am so proud of her. She is in love with the Messianic congregation we attend and our Rabbi loves her. She is also great with the youth. She has really become strong in her stance of where she is with being a Messianic Believer. If your daughter ever wanted to talk to her I am sure she would welcome the opportunity. She could help with how to handle friends and other Christian kids that ask tons of questions. It’s funny…she wears a Star of David Necklace and when she is with other Christian kids she is always asked, “Hey I didn’t know you were Jewish!” and when she says she’s not…the do is open wide for her to share the truth…and she does it so well.
I also have a 12 year old son who LOVES learning Hebrew. He is even thinking about being Bar mitzvahed (not sure that is a word…oh well.)
It has been a journey and I have learned to have fun with it and enjoy it…thanks to my wife. I was getting a bit legalistic for a while…but she straightened me out. LOL
Just keep praying and searching and most of all keep smiling and learning…HE loves it when we are seeking Him and having JOY doing it.
Blessing,
Tim
PS: If you ever want your daughter to talk with my daughter Katie, just email me. I’m not sure if I can out my email on the blog so just email skip and let him know I’m ok with it.
Tim,
Thanks for your reply and the offer to have my daughter (Lauren, 11) speak with your daughter Katie. I would love to arrange that. Like many, my daughter is relationship driven, so it would be very helpful for her to begin a relationship with other kids in the community. Most recently she’s been using Instagram a lot to pic-text her friends, so that’s an option.
Also, our 9-yr old son Luke might benefit from connecting with your son. Luke’s best friend is Jewish and we recently went to the Bat Mitzvah of his older sister (our first) and it was a very interesting experience for all of us.
Now, how can we make it happen? I’m ready…
Mark,
Feel free to contact me at tmspoleti1@gmail.com.
Also I am not sure what Instagram is …my daughter probably does. So email me and we can then get the kids connected.
Tim
Mark,
I appreciate your concerns as I share them. I am part of the same group as Ricky and would like to meet as well to talk. My email address is drperki55@yahoo.com I also have 2 daughters 12 and 10.
Daniel
Thanks Daniel – I will contact you soon to connect. ~MB
Hi Mark,
)
Welcome to the Torah community! Wow, this is by far the most comments on this blog, so know how
very blessed you are, joining in with us ‘lonesome’ ones scattered around the globe. I am in Australia, and there are many Torah folks around, but like someone said here, we are not all in ‘like-mindedness’ as we should be, but being on a journey, we are at various stages, of understanding, growth and maturity.
I believe in keeping Feasts Days, Shabbats, and eating kosher; in the tallit as a prayer shawl/closet, the tzitzit, and brothers having a beard, not necessarily long
Be encouraged that we are with you, in prayers. I recommend Bill Cloud http://www.billcloudblog.com for wonderful teachings, besides the many other online Hebraic teachers to glean from, AND, from the greatest Teacher of all Who will guide you into ALL truth-YHWH’s Ruach! ABBA’s Face is turned towards you, Amein! Shalom!
Ester!
Can we connect? MrsChariM@earthlink.net
Shalom~
Chari
Friend Mark,
We all walk down our own unique path and yet there so many familiar mile markers. I have been a Sabbath, and Holy Days keeper for 25 years, and been New Moon observant for the last 5 or 6. In the mid eighties I joined a Sabbath keeping church with a large international foot print. In the mid nineties it self destructed. I fellow-shipped with this group or that for a couple of years here and a couple there. Until about 10 yrs ago when I found the small group of renegades I meet with now in the Tacoma, WA. area.
I don’t know if we are Torah compliant. I am not really sure what that means exactly. I know that we love the Lord and the Word. We meet in a members home, We have no minister but different ones present topics they’re interested in or we have an interactive Bible study followed by a potluck and lots of good fellow-ship. This has been the most fruitful and rewarding experience I have had.
But we are a small aging group and our numbers are slowly falling, so like you I am throwing my net out onto the waters. I have pasted all of the sites posted here into a folder and plan to see what is out there. Happy fishing to one and all!
Ann
Whew!
Marc~ join the small group of peeps having our eyes opened to TRUTH… Whew, truth that was always there but we didn’t see it. Didn’t have eyes to SEE it.. But Praise YAH, we DO NOW!!
I gotta ask.. are you SURE you wanna be apart of a group that their “TEACHING IS OFF”? Hmmm.. that seems VERY dangerous. That is my first concern & question to you.
We had a similar thing happen to us. Over 3 years ago.. we heard “Study MY Feasts”… What? We didn’t even know HE had “FEASTS”.. so that got us started in our search for TRUTH!!! Now, the crazy thing we didn’t expect to find was His “SABBATH” every time we went to HIS word to study “HIS FEASTS”. We couldn’t get away from it.
It was the wording that “GOT US”… Every time we read about HIS SABBATH.. it would say.. “for all generations” and the like.. WHAT? Why weren’t we keeping/guarding it then? That led to MORE study!!!
He asked us, “Why do you believe what you believe”? WHAT? Of course HE knows why… He has been with us the entire time! He was there when we went to the building, to Bible College, on the mission trips overseas, etc… Again, MORE study!
Then we happened to “accidentally” view a video clip on YouTube about the pagan origins of Christmas & Easter.. WHAT? You mean, these aren’t celebrating the Messiah? You mean we have been keeping these thinking they honored our Messiah & they don’t. In fact, they are pagan? WHAT? Here we go again~ MORE study!
We met some friends unexpected, again “accidentally”. They gave us the book “Christianity Reconsidered” by Warren L. Bowles. We literally slammed it SHUT numerous times because our safe little world was shaking at the core. We said numerous times.. “Do you know what this means IF this is true”? My hubby & I were scared to pieces that what we believed was MIXED with great error. So.. we buckled down for … you guessed it… MORE STUDY!
It has been only 3 years on this narrowing path. We have shared what we have found with many friends & family. The majority have rejected what we have shared but the sad part is they have chosen to reject US! Whew… we were shocked. Didn’t they want to know the errors too? Didn’t they want to STUDY to see if what we were showing them could be true? or even false? We found, they DIDN’T!
We have been ALONE with only YAH, the Creator. We have been FORCED to dig into Him & His word! We have been blessed to find people like Skip, 119 Ministries, Jim Staley, etc to help us dig. We have been connected to others finding this same NARROW path on Facebook of all places.
I’m sorry. I don’t have a solution to your wanting to connect with fellow believers finding this WAY in a community setting. But I do want to encourage you to KEEP on it! Keep seeking! Keep asking! Keep CRYING OUT for HIS TRUTH!
We have NEVER been so HAPPY! We have never been so SAD. (finding this way… not many wanting to share it with us from family & friends) The cost has been high. BUT… the REWARD is more then words can ever say! WHEW!
I hope I have encouraged you & even challenged you. I am not afraid to say it like I see it. I must share the TRUTH He has shown us! It is the BEST thing we have ever experienced. Finding TRUTH!!!
And of course…
the STUDY continues as YAH reveals more of His TRUTH to us, hungry & excited followers of this WAY!!!
Shalom~
Just more of HIS~
Chari
Chari,
Thank you so much for the encouragement! The challenges are also welcome. We too are very grateful to have come to this path – The “Way” – and to have our eyes opened to the Truth.
Of course, we too will continue to study. The greatest challenge we feel is with our children, and how to deviate from societal & cultural norms based on our growing understanding. I can already hear our kids crying “What, no Christmas?!!!”
Then the whole “church” thing… for them it’s more about fun and relationships anyway. And for all of us, the need for community is key. We want to surround ourselves with family and others who love God and want to live in a way that honors Him, just as we want to do.
I trust that as we keep seeking, striving and learning, He will direct our Way.
~MB