Genesis Creation
He established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter forever and ever. You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters were standing above the mountains. Psalm 104:5-6 NASB
Above – Here is a visual representation of the cosmology of Genesis:
It’s nothing like even the simplest grade school science taught today. But it’s in the Bible. Does that make it true? Does the fact that Genesis (and David) describes the earth as standing on a foundation above the deep with waters over the celestial tent mean that all of our science is conspiracy mythology? Or that God lied when He revealed this picture to the ancients? Or does it mean that the Hebrews, like all other people groups, borrowed ideas from other cultures and wove them into their own explanations? When we read Genesis, should we keep a copy of The Elegant Universe close at hand, or should we rather consult Creation Stories of the Middle East. And if we settle these questions in favor of cultural accretion, what does this mean for the other “historical” accounts in the biblical text?
Wasn’t it so much easier when you could just read the Bible like a newspaper? But you can’t. Nor can you read any historical document, any story from the ancient world, any religious text without considering the culture it comes from. Every written document has a perspective, whether it’s the latest study of dark matter celestial mechanics or the Enûma Eliš (the Babylonian creation story). God breathed the words of Scripture contemporanea expositio. How else could He communicate? A God who delivers a message of vital importance in words that no one understands is either cruel or ignorant. YHVH is neither. Therefore, our task is to understand the meaning within the original culture. David wrote about a cosmology that he thought described the universe. It was true for his paradigm. It just isn’t true for ours. But then, again, perhaps David wasn’t actually writing science at all. Perhaps we are the ones who have forced the biblical texts into boxes from our paradigms, boxes that were never imaginable in the world of the ancient Middle East.
Topical Index: meaning, cosmology, culture, Psalm 104:5-6
It was easier to read the Bible like a newspaper. Much easier. At the moment I have so many conflicting thoughts and ideas that I’ve picked up from books, websites, TWs, teachers, etc. and it actually hurts. I used to be happy, feel confident,and have answers. Now the many questions almost overwhelm me, and except for this community I have no one to discuss them with unless I’m prepared to get into some hefty arguments and offend people.Just applying Torah principles like keeping Shabbat and eating Kosher already does. Sometimes I wish that when readers have genuine questions after reading the TW (and even reading or listening to Skip’s books/audio and video teachings) there would be more answers and comments posted to them – going back and forth. More discussions going on; not just the one comment.
I am grateful for all the new insights into the Biblical text, cultural backgrounds, etc. At the same time that very knowledge obviously makes me realize that other things I read in the Bible also could be mistranslated and don’t actually mean what is written. Constantly being on your tip-toes is exhausting. Still – Abba knows the intentions of my heart, my desire to love and honor Him in all I do, and I hope that at some point this will get easier…but I doubt it will. It’s a good thing that doubt is not a Hebrew word… 🙂
OH, yes! Standing on tip toes is exhausting. But there is comfort in knowing you are NOT the only one trying to peer over the fence. I often wonder why I wasn’t born into an orthodox Jewish culture, thinking that it would be so much easier. But then I realize that even brilliant men like Jonathan Sacks are influenced by paradigms from the other side. He thinks Paul converted to Christianity and denied the place of the Torah. Where did he get that idea? It’s just like me–years of struggle to come to some small appreciation of a little truth. Community is the only thing that keeps us from running away to the desert.
As for more discussion, I agree. We need more back-and-forth. And wherever I teach, that’s what we have. So I suppose you will have to come to one of the session sometime and join all the others who are openly seeking. I will look for you.
Oh, I’d love to come to your events, and I’m sure I will one day. Thank you for your affirming posts – Skip and everybody else. It’s good to know you’re not alone.
I.M. You just described most of us here…when your paradigm first begins to shift, it is frightening, overwhelming and exhausting…but gradually it becomes exhilarating, astonishing and immensely satisfying. Suddenly the Bible begins to make sense.
My resolution to your experience that we share is to devote as much time as possible to studying God’s word. That overwhelming feeling of (re) starting our walk is not just that…you have always walked.
Thank you God almighty for giving me a Baptist church in my teens…if not for that, I may have never come to the joy I see in You God now, today.
As Joseph said; “what you intended for evil, God intended for good”.
I.M. your past is part of you, the fact that you question is your future, and evidence it includes The One True God of Israel.
Thank you for putting my thoughts into words that make sense.
Hi I.M. I agree! “More discussions going on; not just the one comment.”
Was better when comments were linked to our emails, and we are notified of anyone replying to our comment/s. These days we can miss out replying to those replies, unless we go back to previous TWs to check.
Yes I.M. you words describe exactly as I feel as well. It’s overwhelming at times discovering this new way of learning and looking at YHVH word. Most times I can’t even put into words to comment out here, my mind is so blown. But I just rejoice in YHVH that’s that exactly what coming into His kingdom and living according to His word is supposed to do, radically change how we see everything. I’m enjoying the journey.
“Or does it mean that the Hebrews, like all other people groups, borrowed ideas from other cultures and wove them into their own explanations?”
Something has always bothered me about the idea that Biblical accounts/ideas were associated with other cultural ideas and perhaps in part or wholly formed of those other sources.
Let’s take the creation story of the Bible and the notion that parts are found in or are shadows of other ancient accounts. If the creation account as given to the Hebrews by God is God’s account of His actions, then it would have to be the most accurate account if we accept that God created. This would mean that if any others received this accounting (perhaps even Adam) and it became stories with variances due to time and cultural designations…it would still mean God’s account to the Hebrews some thousands of years later is still the original and most accurate account; no matter the variances or cultural designations i.e. to other gods. The first story would always be the Biblical accounting even though revealed at a much later date…not the other cultural accountings.
If we look at the Flood accounting and the ‘generations’ of Noach from Genesis 10:10 on, and particularly at Genesis 11 and the generations of Shem; we find that not only Noach was alive through a good part of those generations, but that Shem was alive when Abraham walked the earth (I have charted this and will make available that chart to anyone).
This would mean that all of the generations up to and including Abraham would have available to them a firsthand account of a relative that actually rode out the ark of the flood or at least a relative that had acquired a most near and thus accurate accounting to share. So would have the generations of Ham and Yefet, Shem’s brothers. Add in the relatively few numbers of population if we accept the total destruction of man as told in the Torah and the repopulation, there is a good chance Abraham acquired a family tale with great accuracy (what a story around the fire at night!)
In reading Genesis 10 with one general accounting of the generations of Shem and 11 with a detailed accounting showing the presence of Shem in the many generations to follow of his…it might be that God was giving those Hebrews who heard this flood story the evidence that it was verifiable through their own blood line and stronger than any other variance they (or us) have heard from other ancient cultures’ ideas. Even though revealed much after those ideas developed.
Perhaps those boring generational accountings in the Bible have a deeper meaning than we see due to our cultural views and ideas.
Hi Richard Gambino, very interesting to hear you have created a chart of the generation from Noach to Abraham. Much appreciate if you would send me a copy of the chart as per your post. John Laukam – United Kingdom
Hi John;
I don’t know of a way on Skip’s site that I can get my email address to you other than to post it for you and the others…rjgambino16@gmail.com
If Skip finds this unacceptable I hope he is monitoring and deletes at his discretion. Other than that this is the email I offer the public in general and I think Skip knows of my personal.
You are right, Richard, about the generations. Jacob went down into Egypt with 70 family members. Moses was only about 4 generations out. That means his greatgrandaddy probably had some good remembrance talks with his daddy about greatgrandaddy Abraham. They did not ‘forget’ because it had been a long time. They ‘forgot’ in that they were gradually adopting the religious and cultural beliefs and practices they saw around them. When the Ten Commandments were given, the Fourth instructed them to “remember” the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not a new institution. It was one that had been ‘forgotten’ by the practice of working on it.
No “science” has ever even one time been able to make water curve AND then stick upside down, sideways, etc to a ball spinning at 1000 mph, hurtling through a supposed vacuum at 86,000 mph. And mysteriously drag an atmosphere with it spinning at the same rate. Not once. Yet “science” would say it is so, while i and my fellow space travelers feel no effects of all this movement as we inhabit this giant “scientific” carnival ride. It is much, much easier to believe Davids description than “science” because what David describes is true not to some planet I inhabit but the world I live in. All of the water in my world goes to level and the sun moves across my sky. And last night, the moon, not the sun, lit up my night.
If so called teachers/professors, all of them “doctors” , in bible college and seminaries can (unintentionally or intentionally) conspire to hide Fathers Torah from me, I can certainly entertain the thought that pagan science can conspire to hide truth from me as well.
Or should i just trust science and say, “pass me some of that GMO popcorn , extra margarine, while I wash it down with a diet coke.”?
✔️
Craig! Spot on! I like that!
Hi Craig, thought this would be of interest to you. Hope link works.
https://youtu.be/Kr1r7WQufrQ
Craig, I hope you’re not advocating a wooden literalist interpretation of what Skip is describing. Simple, contemporary observation indicates that the earth is a spheroid (not quite a perfect sphere) that rotates on its own axis while orbiting the sun.
The LAST thing, I mean it, that I want to do here is get into a contest about the “flat earth” stuff. My point is really much more fundamental. It is this: Have you ever considered HOW you believe things to be true? NOT what you believe to be true, but HOW you go about determining truth. Obviously, culture has a lot to do with our core epistemology. We ASSUME a lot of things. Ancient cultures were no different. But believing that just because the Bible paints a flat earth picture means that the earth must be flat is an epistemological problem, not an evidence problem (they are related, of course). If you begin with the a priori assumption that WHATEVER the Bible says is literally TRUE at face value according to YOUR understanding of the vocabulary, you are in for some very difficult times and some virtually impossible verses. If you couple that with an epistemological method that asserts only sensory perception can determine what is true, then there are a lot of very important things that will be very difficult to explain.
That’s a very good point, Skip. HOW do I know what I know? On authority. I know almost nothing by my own experience. Almost all of the beliefs that I use every day to get me through my day are on authority that I trust. And that includes what I believe about the sun that ‘comes up’ every day.
Yeay, Skip, so glad you brought this forth. Too much created confusion by mankind through what they choose to believe.
Scripture says- the earth is round-
Isa 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Excellent post Skip, thank you!
But it does seem to me that many of my believing brethren are on the one hand either skeptical or ignorant of the scientific method, and on the other are quite happy to accept the technical innovations that proceed from it, such as cell phones, microwave ovens and geosynchronous satellites, not to mention vast medical advances in many areas of human suffering,
God gave us a gift in science, which like any other gift, can be misused and misunderstood.
Thank you, John, for plugging nature again. The laws of nature reveal YHVH’s handiwork no less than the Torah. It is the Torah written in another language. Many so-called primitive people have come to the truth just by carefully observance of, and alignment with, nature and its laws. Science is just our modern way of describing this observation of nature. People have always observed nature. I have seen statements to the effect that over 90% of the great discoveries about natural laws that we enjoy today were already discovered thousands of years ago. The Romans invented the internal combustion engine, but they just considered it a novelty. The Greeks invented steam motors, too, out of hammered bronze. They just never connected the thought of a motor to doing actual work.
It’s that ol’ paradigm thing again!
Paradigm, yes, but there is another issue here as well. It is the epistemological one. If I accept my physical sensations as the ultimate arbiter to truth, then physical observation aligns with my conclusions that, for example, the earth is a flat disc floating on the primal sea. This is what any Egyptian would have seen when he approached the Mediterranean. He would also assume that the heavens are a curved dome over him. That’s what he “sees.” Of course, this also raises all kinds of questions about, for example, “hot” or “cold.” A thermometer is an artificial measurement of physical sensation, and if physical sensation is the “truth,” then hot and cold are determined by what I feel, not by some measurement of degree. My epistemology determines HOW I determine what I believe to be true. So, if I start with the epistemology that WHATEVER God says in Scripture MUST BE TRUE at face value, then I will conclude that the picture of the earth, world, heavens as described in Scripture IS TRUE, regardless of any other evidence to the contrary. Now we are dealing with Paradigms, but it begins with a commitment to an epistemological method. I have pointed out in discussions that the Bible also describes “spiritual” realms which we take to be REAL even though they cannot be physically apprehended. How does the epistemology of physical sensation deal with that? The issues here are complicated (not that they should be) because evidence is so malleable. We see what we EXPECT to see. We believe what we WANT to believe. It takes some serious box-breaking to get out of the paradigm-dependent modes we are used to.
Times they are a-changing. With vocabulary, culture, paradigms, and innocence/purity. Mankind has lost that simplicity of life. I mourn that lost.
We have a song here-
Kookaburra sits on the old gum tree,
Merry, merry king of the bush is he,
Laugh kookaburra laugh,
Kookaburra, gay your life must be…
This song have a totally different meaning these days. Sigh!
What a concise diagram, Skip, thank you! Shalom!
Hi everyone,
Ester, good reference to the Kookaburra song.
John Adam and Laurita, you took me back in time to when I was around age 10. After-school television had a half-hour program at that time that informed viewers like myself on the marvels of science and how it supposedly made life easier for present-day people, early 1960s.
-Craig, your parameter – intentional/unintentional is something I wrestle with much of the time, and reflected in the post by I.M. Today, I am looking for an online Hebraic exposition of Luke 8, the healing of the demoniac by Yeshua. The church teatches this was Yeshua’s ongoing pattern to go against the grain which ultimately led to the cross. However, the reading suggests more to consider.
Yes, Skip is right on, I cannot read the Bible: ASV, NASB, WEB or even the CJB like a newspaper any longer! I need to be informed of what it meant when God saw that what He created was good.
I need to know that create in me a clean heart is asking to be filled with God’s power to live a holy life, and emptied of my propensity and desire for the things that ultimately bring on death! The “church” unintentionally/intentionally keeps those facts at bay. It intentionally tells me Romans 9 through 11 is misplaced as a way to avoid the olive tree paradigm.
David R
Hi David, “I need to be informed of what it meant when God saw that what He created was good.”
May I venture to say that what YHWH created was “good” to mean Functional. Anything functional would bring forth the right results we desire of that function- as eyes for seeing, ears for hearing, and hearts for feeling, etc..that speaks of consequences of what we desire to see, hear, feel, etc… :- )
Thus, every action/ deed will be assessed by the choices we make/ made, as with Yaccov and Esau, not predestination.
Your other question on Luke 8 is most interesting!
Christian circles believe in laying on of hands on the sick, which is fine if the person doing that in all humility, acknowledges that healing “power” did not come from him, but from above, and not as if he/she has a healing “ministry”. We are the walking living SIGNS and wonders the world need to see.
Book of James says to anoint the sick with oil, with prayers. So then, healing the sick is not the issue with Yeshua, but that healing was done on Shabbats. He was simply fulfilling his mission as an obedient, begotten Son, teaching folks that life is important.
And, he didn’t forbid women to minister to him, which was against the norm then.
Hope that helps a little? Shalom!
What really fascinates me about the extended life times that overlapped the early generations is that I know nothing of my great- great- great- great- grandfather and Abraham was probably kissed on the cheek by his!
If I cannot trust what my eyes see, what my hands handle our what my ears hear than how can I trust anything posted here?
If I smell smoke, almost assuredly thete is some type of combustion. If I see flames in combination I am more assured of what I smell.
When I feel my pants on fire, I’m gonna trust my senses with everything in me!
Do you always trust your senses? I might smell smoke and see ash outside and be convinced that my house is on fire when it is actually a forest fire 100 miles away, and the wind is carrying the smoke and ash. Everything that I see, feel or hear is interpreted by the paradigms I use to make “sense” of the world. “Evidence” doesn’t stand alone — it is understood by how I think about the world. I have to be willing to examine what I believe through different prisms, always being aware that what I think I know as absolute probably isn’t.
The problem is an epistemological one. IF you are the ONLY observer in the world, then you are likely to think YOUR observations are the ONLY avenue to the truth. You might be mistaken, of course, but how would you know? Fortunately, you are not the ONLY observer. There are plenty of others to add, correct, alter and adjust your views. You can trust your senses, but only insofar as they are also open to the inspection, assessment and evaluation of others. If you don’t think that is important, then you are in alignment with the mystic who believes that ONLY HIS REALITY is the real one and everyone else is deceived.
Absolutely true, Skip! Thank you!
The meaning of the root words that gave us the English word “science” mean simply “facts, knowledge.” The ancients observed the world around them, just as we do today, and came to certain conclusions they accepted as true–just as we do today. Scientific truths are those supported by facts until disproved by new and better data. We can disprove things in science. We can rarely prove them. What we moderns call the scientific method is not so neat and tidy as we might think. Science for the ancients, and science in our modern world, involves a lot of quirks, unpredictability, serendipity, frustration, and fun. If we relaxed and slipped a little bit of poetry into our studies about science, I think we would find that our explanation for the cosmos and David’s explanation for the cosmos are not as different as might appear. Our worldviews (paradigms) shape our observations. The reasons WHY we choose our worldviews are often more important than the conclusions we reach in our observations concerning the state of the world.
Thank you Laurita, for your comment ” the Torah written in another language”.
My first thought that came to mind was the verse in Romans 1:20. “For the hidden things of Elohim are seen by the mind in the things He created even His eternal power and divinity”. As we see Torah being disregarded we also see nature being disregarded both hand in hand i.e. Genetic manipulation.
Nature is in trevail as much as Torah. My observation anyway.
O how we need redemption
You know, David, I think we tend to be afraid of what we don’t know much about, or don’t have a lot of experience with. I know that, like John pointed out, science has been used by people to defy YHVH, but that does not make nature something against heaven. If you establish an improper relationship with nature (i.e. like attempt to use it as an excuse to cut out a simultaneous relationship with nature’s God), you are going to end up at odds with nature, too. Religions that worship science are no better off than those that worshiped nature any other way. With both, you tend to find yourself one day waking up realizing that you don’t really know what you are dealing with, and, subsequently, afraid of the spirits in the high places. Your god will turn against you, for nature already serves another God.
Very interesting discussion going on…
Skip and others help here if the earth is resting on four pillars and has a specific foundation – scriptural explanation and according to the genesis narration God did not really create the earth He just gave it form and purpose. Would this not maybe imply something else…
Job 38…
I like the explanation of good as being functional our quest is therefore to be functional for God. Is this maybe the creation we need to understand so that we can understand the scriptures… Opened their eyes…