A Personal Sadness
Yesterday a long time reader and supporter withdrew from the group. His reason was the debate over the Trinity. He said that he just could no longer continue the discussion because I had not been clear about the divinity of Yeshua, His uncreated being and His equivalence with the Father.
I was so sad to see this happen. It means that I haven’t done my job, not to provide “definitive”answers, but to encourage all of us to be able to explore these complex and important issues without feeling as if we have to agree in order to know our Lord. I was sad because somehow my explorations and questions left him feeling as though I was no longer in the fold, and apparently, being in the fold is the most important thing.
Let me be as frank as possible. I just don’t know what to think yet. I have lots of questions, questions that are not answered by the typical Christian responses. That’s just where I am. I believe that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah and that he is divine in that sense, but I just don’t see grounds for the Trinity from the biblical standpoint.
He also said that over the last few years I have become more and more critical of Christianity. That is true. I admit it. That does NOT mean that I think Christian believers are awful pagans. I just think they don’t know their own history, a history which I am convinced does not arise from the Scriptures but rather from the Gentile philosophical ideas brought into the “church” by the early, anti-Semitic fathers. As far as I can see, this is historical fact. The Bible is Jewish, perhaps not the Judaism of today, but certainly the Jewish way of life of the first century. I know there were lots of sects of Judaism in those days, but there were no Christian sects. Those arrived after Bar Kochba and a few other socio/political events. As far as its historical basis, Christianity’s claim on Jewish Scriptures is a lie.
Anyway, it just makes me feel terrible to think that someone who loved what we are trying to do would find it necessary to withdraw himself and his support of these efforts over a doctrinal issue. I am so sorry I wasn’t adequate to the task. I guess God has a lot to teach me still.
Skip, I can understand the sadness you feel over the departure of a brother relation to this subject.
I have joined your group because I remain unconvinced about the trinitarian doctrine and accept that I need to study the scriptures in the language originally chosen.
I would like to encourage you in the knowledge that even when Yeshua spoke His parables, people responded in different ways; to the same parable.
How about the parable of the sower. Some fell on good soil, the rest on different types of ground. Same seed, but different soil.
I look forward to your visit to Worcester.
Shalom
Yashua camino con doce discípulos,pero UNO de ellos pensó otra cosa,por eso Yashua pensó que su trabajo no estaba bien realizado.
Skip, You cracked my faith at our first meeting. Out poured the truth along with the facts. I thank Dr Greener for the invite to your class in NJ awhile back. It has been a blessing learning from you !
Yes, keep this book of the Torah on your lips, and meditate on it day and night, so that you will take care to act according to everything written in it. Then your undertakings will prosper, and you will succeed. Haven’t I ordered you, ‘Be strong, be bold’? So don’t be afraid or downhearted, because ADONAI your God is with you wherever you go
(Joshua 1:8-9 CJB)
The more I learn the less I know. The less I know the more I depend on Hashem. I do not always agree with you at first read, but after I search my heart and G-d’s word I move on. Loving Him more and knowing G-d in a deeper and clearer way. When I know all things for certain I’ll be in His presence.
I know how I feel when I ‘think’ I fall short. Be encouraged.
I enjoyed this. Could you clarify what you mean by ” Christianity’s claim on Jewish Scriptures is a lie.”
Thank you
Yes, give me a day.
You seriously challenge me also, again I reflect on what you have said, search the scriptures and await illumination/confirmation. You are doing a good job, Kia Kaha (be strong NZ style).
I would like to tap into your discussion on the matter of the Trinity, where would I go?
Kia Ora, Kevin! So excited to see a Kiwi fan of Skip. It’s my desire to bring him to NZ one day for lectures…..IF the Lord opens the door for my family to get there. 🙂
Wow, I mean WOW 🙂
I’m afraid I have to agree with the one who left. Withdrawing over a major doctrinal issue is a very valid reason to leave. I have debated also.
Hi Laura,
I believe that the LORD has brought me on various journeys, the most recent has started with a friend lending me a book called “Messianic Church Arising”, I was shocked then outraged to discover how many lies I had been fed during my Theological education/journey. I now realise, thanks to people like Skip, that I have had my eyes opened to the Hellenistic desire to put everything in boxes, after if you can put a label on it, you know all about it 🙂
I think that we are all searching for the truth and I am sorry to say that Doctrine is not exempt, it either has to put up or shut up; it needs to withstand the test of the WORD.
Kevin, I’m not familiar with the book you mention, but you speak for me, too. I’ve gone through the initial shock (and grieving process) and also thankfulness for cleaning away so much of the CONFUSION in the church teachings that I was always told, in various ways, either to ignore (“God will reveal it to you in time” {you poor little lost Dear and troublemaker!}) or was given a quick, glib rebut. I have always been a questioner of everything. I don’t quickly swallow people’s words and I especially don’t jump aboard any boat that claims to have all the answers in regard to MY God, the God Whom I KNOW has led me, held me, walked with me when I’m on the right path, and pulled me back in line when I wasn’t.
THIS IS EXCITING STUFF. I love YHVH and YESHUA. I know that God is Yeshua’s God (maybe they are one in the same… Yeshua is a manifestation of God in the flesh Who was sent not only to have victory over death but to model how we should live?) and that Yeshua is my Redeemer. I know that God has an Owner’s Manual and, for best results, we should follow it to the letter… the Hebrew letter if we can find truth tellers to lead us!
I’m so thankful for Skip. Maybe we don’t pray for him enough!
Hi Laura,
I struggle with that view as so often I have found myself wanting to uphold my understanding above relationship only to them find that I have been incorrect or misled. How are we to help each other if we don’t walk humbly before the Lord. We rely so much on being “correct” rather than continuously seeking prayerfully the wonders and truths of His living Word. If the discussion are eroding to our relationship with the Lord and each other then YES they need to be reviewed and carefully considered. We also need to ask ourselves what our relationships are based on. As too often I think so many of us might reject the truth even from Yeshua as our relationships are based on something other than the Grace He has afforded us.
But withdrawing fellowship over “doctrine” is really at the heart of the matter, isn’t it? Are we withdrawing because we don’t go to fellowship together, or to Temple, or hold the festivals, or show compassion or mercy or hesed? Or does it really come down to “who’s right?” Did Yeshua preach doctrine or did He exhort us to be obedient to Torah? Where does “doctrine” come from anyway? Would it be sufficient for us to simply say, “You know, I don’t know it all, but I know that YHWH calls me to love you, honor you and hear what you have to say. And to be obedient to His instructions.”
Hillel and Shammai differed wholeheartedly in their interpretation and application of Torah, yet they would go to the temple together to worship and pray without hesitation. I think we could learn something from their example!!
Dr.Skip Moen , greetings from a cold & windy Johannesburg, South Africa. I appreciate you & your sense of intellectual integrity. I appreciate your ability to challenge the status quo in search of the TRUTH.Provocation is always welcome when it is constructive. We have to conclude we do not know everything.We all keep learning. Shalom to you .Shalom to the person who has left too. Grace & peace. ronald joseph. Benoni ,South Africa.
Skip,
You can’t be all things to all people. If you are, then you are watering down the message. Does it hurt when someone leaves over a disagreement? Yes. But we have to keep moving on the path with our walk with YHVH.
Thanks for your thought provoking articles, Skip. I appreciate how you explore issues and I find your thoughts helpful, especially as I I seem to be travelling a similar path of questioning, exploring and looking for answers. May Hashem bless you.
Welcome to Luke 19:41-42 Skip.
I don’t even get as far as the Trinity and see closeness grow distant with some dear to me. I weep.
“Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘When that time comes, ten men will take hold -speaking all the languages of the nations -will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, “We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.”‘” Zech. 8:23 CJB
Your ‘Today’s Word’ causes me to find that cloak in the Tanakh.
I don’t even get as far as the Trinity and see closeness grow distant with some dear to me. I weep.
Yes, Rick, me too. I also weep as we seek fellowship with those who claim to be on the same path as us of seeking TRUTH through Torah but they have no real love for one another… just trying to create more doctrine that people should be forced to believe in.
I struggled for decades over the term “lukewarm”. When I felt excluded, because I felt my problems made others walk on the other side of the road, and made me want to hide, I realized that the worst thing that was hurting me about the Body was that it was full of people who were UNWILLING TO ENGAGE. Unwilling to examine where they were at IN TERMS OF WHERE THEY PERCEIVED I MAY BE AT. They just walked away. Perhaps my desperation frightened them. Perhaps they felt that there was no way to find common ground or sympathy or a way to help me without either challenging their walk, or risking getting along with someone who might ‘defile’ them? We are ALL MESSED UP!
Skip, I get up in the morning and thank God for His Body, and in particular for the parts that still ‘let’ me be next to It, participate with It, identify with It, but most of all, rub the ‘wrong’ way with It every once in a while. In my heart, what God has put together, let no Laurita put asunder from her. The most messed up parts are still His parts, and that makes them still my family. Haven’t figured out yet how to scrub those genes out of my body!
When some of my kids started learning chemistry, we were working with test tubes of reacting substances. It came to me that as long as there were still DIFFERENCES in that test tube, chemical changes were still possible. The instant every reaction had been neutralized, the tube was considered ‘non-reactive’. Maybe in Revelation, the worst thing possible to happen to a Body was to be considered ‘non-reactive’?
I love everyone here. We are all His. Thank you for a place where it is safe to react with the Body! None of us have it all ‘right’ yet! And maybe that is all right! If it is with Him then it is with me, too! Thank you! Skip for making it possible and being faithful to where he is at and what he has been given, and all of you for putting up with me. I love y’all!
“When some of my kids started learning chemistry, we were working with test tubes of reacting substances. It came to me that as long as there were still DIFFERENCES in that test tube, chemical changes were still possible. The instant every reaction had been neutralized, the tube was considered ‘non-reactive’. Maybe in Revelation, the worst thing possible to happen to a Body was to be considered ‘non-reactive’?”
What a great analogy, Laurita!
Great visual, Suzanne! Very good point, too! AMEN!
Can’t take the credit – I was responding to Laurita’s point just above. 🙂
Skip, as the saying goes “you can’t please everyone”. A careful reading of the entire Bible laves one with the knowledge of the Father, son and the “Ruach HaKodesh” or the Holy Ghost. As I see it, just 3 manifestations of the same God. Remmber the 10 sefot? The problem I have with the “trinity doctrine” is the part about 3 “persons” in one. They are one in the same. The Jews have trouble with it because of Deut 6:4. A believer may seek answers at the mouth of the LORD, but we are also free to believe what we want and to dwell with God at the level at which we are capable.
Please provide your hidden meaning behind the use of the word “lie” in your blog above. I know what the word means when I use it, and often refrain from its use as it can be most hurtful. I know you well enough that there are deeper and many times different interpretations and perspectives on words, but you revealed a strong emotion that moved me to ask “what are you saying?” Yes, I know man made the “Trinity” but using the word “lie” was cause to ponder for your intended meaning.
Fair point, and I will try to address it, when I get off the next airplane.
Skip, thank you for sharing your heart with us. I wonder, is this the way Yeshua felt when numbers withdrew from fellowship with His group? Carry on, brother. You’re doing the work you were meant to do, and I need to be part of a group that’s not afraid to ask questions.
No one can stay in any relationship without the ability to agree to disagree. I will learn from your teachings and continue to believe in the trinity and attending my home church. I would never want to live in any community that does not have a church. We are a hospital for sinners not a shrine for saints. I need my church family to walk through life with me at times of death and joyous occasions.
Keep up your work, you are making a difference in Jewish understanding for me. Thank you.
Dear Skip, You did not fail. Truth is revealed to people by the Spirit of God. Each person is on their own journey to truth. Sometimes we come along in their lives when they are not able to see yet. All of us have areas that if we heard something weird that sounded like heresy we might stop our ears to it. The person who left you may never come around. If he/she is a true follower you will see them again and all the nuances of the faith will have been sorted out. Faithful people walk to the light that they have. I believe we need to bear with each other and support each other on our journeys, because no one has all the truth. It is hard for Trinitarians, because they have been told that you must believe in the concept/idea or you are lost. That is a hard bridge to get across.
first post. I subscribe to another list that challenges and claim that I do it to stay sharp. One of the issues is that he made claims about a group that I had personal experience with. (we’ll let that stand (preposition)). I find the discussion disturbing. There are others that are repenting for the Nicean (sp.)
creed / calendar / feasts. I watched the Pentecost conference just last night (GoZ). I don’t have a scholarship, but I don’t get a check in my spirit. Blessings,
Skip, I have recently begun to see the way that parts of both the Jewish hierarchy and Church hierarchy have been guilty of so much of the same thing. They have sought to establish control and implement systems contrary to the community intended through the covenant community of Israel. Its been a continuous journey of discovery, repentance, revelation and relearning. One day we will know when He reveals it to us but in the meantime we strive in humility to be like the example sent in Yeshua. To walk as He walked. We look forward to when you visit and continue to explore and investigate all these things but at the end of the day our relationships in Him should be able to keep us strong enough to endure the difficult questions and times when we have to reflect and redirect.
Skip, when we really begin to know our identity in the Hebraic context, under the kingship of the Almighty, there grows a freedom to ask the hard questions. This person has stepped away because of deep seeded fear, maybe unacknowledged, but none the less, fear is the normal reaction to shaking doctrinal heresy or just questioning deep issues. Yeshua is my Messiah and Yah is the King of the Universe. Redemption comes through this plan, restoration is assured through His covenant. We cannot be afraid to ask the questions that will free us from doctrine that hinders our influence for the Kingdom now and to come. Thank you for your frankness and honesty in your own questioning. Hebraic thinking is a task many believers just find too hard and uncomfortable, yet in it is the key to understanding Who we are and Whose we are. Keep up the good work! Shalom, shalom.
Skip,
you are a great teacher for me. I am very, very much a Roman Catholic and not shy about it.
Nevertheless, I have a greater understanding of my faith because of your teaching.
God bless you and the work you do.
Sincerely,
Paul Leddy
Pahokee, Florida
Dr. Moen,
You have expressed many of the same thoughts and questions I’ve had and are having along this journey. Thank you for your courage and honesty.
Skip, what you do changes a LOT of lives. But don’t forget what you do. By nature, you’re not in the vine of “pleasing people” nor “fitting in”. Where one person detracts and it’s easy to find yourself changing your ways in reaction, there are a dozen others to fill the void who don’t want anything more than exactly what you’re offering. Steadfast. Forward. There are plenty of us willing to entertain the tough questions for the sake of knowing who it is we’re really trying to know, not an image we’ve been fed.
I really appreciate your openness about all of this. That helps all of us. We are all on this journey and at different places. I don’t always agree with you but I don’t always agree with everyone because no one really knows. It might me good to consider what he was saying after all there are many who are reading. That’s a great responsibility. We don’t want to get caught up in so much minutia as a mentor of the Hebrew Roots told me years ago. We don’t want to forget the bottom line. Which after 20 years in the Hebrew Roots of my faith has completely circled me back to the bottom line of love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. It seems too simplistic and I know there are many ways to get there but that is the bottom line goal. If we are turning people away from what they were thinking, then what are we turning them towards? I now know people who won’t pray with the name Yeshua and are becoming totally works based. It’s a difficult concept to apply the Holy Spirit and faith and miraculous deliverance at the same time as doing the work to get your self out of the mess you are in. I have recently been hearing that one of the ways Islam is coming at Christians is to challenge them on the diety of Yeshua. Once they knock that out, because most are so confused anyway, it paves the way to their god. If this is the case, then anything that would challenge his diety is a red flag for me because there are too many wishy washy believers and in this end game we need a solid position.
Thank you, Skip for your honesty.
When any doctrine goes from being a right or wrong issue to a life and death issue in which one feels so strongly that they must so identity with and take up the mantle of one side to the exclusion of the percieved wrong ( and those who hold it) from the conversation then we go from being dogmatic to being a dog. i.e., less human. Have you failed, Skip? Hardly. If the person who has tasted of the sweet waters which you daily pour chooses to part for a season understand that the strength in which they are able to walk away is in no small measure from that very well they now deny. Their walk is not yet finished and once they drink from the polluted waters of man they may well return. All you, and we as a community, can do is pray for their safe journey and hope they have taken plenty of canteens of living water with them. Shalom, Michal
Thank you for stating this so beautifully, Michael.
Skip, while I don’t agree with everything you post, what you have done is open my eyes to the fact that everything I know about God and Yeshua has been fed to me through the interpretation of some man. Whether it is one who has lived recently or one who lived many years ago.
When I was growing up my mother used to say, “quote your source”. It drove me crazy. But in the end it has caused me to question where I am getting my information from.
Your analysis of scripture is often like a flash light turned on spotlighting certain passages, and doctrines that force me to look at the whole of what I know from a different perspective. One that isn’t always comfortable or convenient. It requires work to sort out the source of the point your are making.
In the end I don’t perceive you wanting people to agree with you so much as you want us to study, think, research and find the source to quote from and build our faith around. No man is good. I suspect that no man is always right. We might get close to glimpsing the glory of God, but it is illusive and fades. Yet, we keep searching hoping for the the next glimpse.
As far as I can tell Yeshua never went around debating people. He quoted scripture, clarified points using established scripture and was kind. I far as I can tell He only chastised those who were cramming their doctrinal positions down others throats.
There is a scripture that should terrify most “Christians”. It is found in Revelation, where it is talking about the Harlot and HER DAUGHTERS. Christianity, as it is practiced today has its roots in the Catholic church and there is nothing Christ Like about that.
May the Lord bless you and protect you,
May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious toward you
May the Lord lift up His face upon you and grant you peace
~Jill
Thank you Skip. Your soft heart is encouraging.
Ruth Lester
Skip,
The ability to wrestle with the scriptures is an art form that the western mind has yet to grasp.
Many people do not have the ability to do good research into the thorny questions of church doctrine. I do not always agree with you on some issues, but you do provoke me to do proper research and question my position on a particular point of doctrine. Good research is not about trying to prove my point is right and yours is wrong. It is about letting the research flow and take me to a deeper understanding of that doctrine, even if it causes problems with my previously held idea on that particular doctrine.
This gentleman needs to learn that there are more pressing needs in the church than to fall out of fellowship over the historical view of the doctrine of the trinity.
“Concerning the whole family that I brought up from the land of Egypt: You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth— That is why I will call you to account for all your iniquities. Can two walk together without having met? (Amos 3:1a-3 JPS)”
There are relationships and connections I too have had, and have walked away from; or the other walked away from me. Afterwards it was as if we had never known one another; as if we had never shared life together. It is a loss. A loss of not only what might have been; but what once was. It is sad; very sad. It is a loss, and unlike some other losses this one does not come with a gain. There is no finger to point, no blame to assign. This is the time to mourn and we will mourn together.
Sidebar: Why is the LORD so willing and so often work with and through broken people? Because, that’s all He has.
Thanks, Roderick. Good words.
Well said, Roderick and good to remember in these difficult times. Thank you.