Doubtful Vision-Casting
Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained, but happy is he who keeps the law. Proverbs 29:18
Vision – I recently came across the very interesting comment (it’s worth quoting in full): “You have no doubt heard the biblical axiom, “Without a vision the people perish…” It is used often in an effort to establish a raison d’etre for a congregation. It attempts to use Scripture to support the ‘build it and they will come’ model to promote building projects; or the ‘praise = entertainment; worship = solemnity’ model to promote programs. Try finding a congregational building program that does not contain the word ‘vision’ in it and you are doing well. One problem with this axiom is that it is only half of the verse from Proverbs 29:18: “Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; but happy is he who keeps [guards and cherishes] the Torah.” Notice, the word ‘revelation’ is used. This better explains what the King James Version is saying when it uses the word ‘vision.’ In typical Hebrew parallelism, the phrases are meant to offset one another: “no revelation” versus “cherishes the Torah” “cast off restraint” versus “happy [blessed]”.
The fact that the American Evangelical church has lost the culture war by forfeit is proof that she has not adhered to ‘revelation’ – which is Torah (i.e. G-d’s revealed Word). She has “cast off restraint” because she thinks G-d’s instructions are merely suggestions, and all that matters is ‘faith’”.
The author is right. Our penchant for casting a “vision” is thoroughly Greek in its operation. God doesn’t need you to have a vision, a goal or a five-year plan. He wants and needs you to observe the plan He already put in place 3500 years ago. God has established His Kingdom here on earth, the vanguard of a coming worldwide domination of His righteousness. He has already given the constitution of the Kingdom and the marching orders for its expansion. We ignore them at our peril. Solomon noted that whenever men and women disregard the revelation (hazon), terrible things happen. Conversely, whenever men and women cherish God’s instructions, a state of well-being ensues.
Notice the parallel of Proverbs 29:18 with Proverbs 11:14. “Where there is no guidance, a people falls,” and here, “where there is no understanding of the revelation from God, the society deteriorates into chaos.” We find the same observation in Judges 17:6, “In those days there was no king in Israel, every man did what was right in his own eyes.”
Can the word hazon be translated as “vision”? Yes, but it is related to the “seeing” of a prophet, not to the planning commission at the church. The church is called to obedience, not to programming. Once again, we are back at the Garden. When Eve ate from the Tree, she cast off restraint. She had to “vision”. She did what was right in her own eyes. She determined what was good for her! And the rest is history. What is true for one, is true for all. Society follows that same collective path of Eve with the same result – ‘atsav – sorrow.
Will you step away from the “vision” casting catastrophe of our Greek planning preoccupation? Will you trade what is right in your own eyes for the revelation of God’s instructions? And will you help your brothers and sisters in the Lord, so confused by the addition of pagan thinking to the church, see a different kind of “vision”?
Topical Index: vision, planning, church, hazon, revelation, Eve, Tree, Proverbs 29:18
Is there also a parallel with Hosea 4:6?
6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you [the priestly nation] have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you that you shall be no priest to Me; seeing you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children.Amp
Seems to me the entire chapter (Hosea 4) addresses a priesthood (all believers) that’s strayed from His ways. Or a foolish nation.
“to open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light”..
What a difference a word makes. A difference such as “a” word or “the” word. One among many or one specifically. We really do need to pay much attention to detail-. As hopefully we all know by know, it’s the details that make the difference or as Doris once sang- “little things mean a lot.” Here is the difference: “without vision”, or “without a vision.” Vision is simply, the ability “to see.” To know, to understand, to comprehend, to “get it”, to appropriate, to grasp the concept- “do you “see” now? Oh, now I see! I understand what it is you’re trying to communicate. I “see clearly” what it is you are talking about. Shall we go a little further and try a new word? maybe “revelation- the unveiling. To uncover what previously was hidden from view. And Who is it doing the “unveiling?” Have you had any “aha” moments today? hmm… I see. BTW- light is that which reveals. Yeshua is “the light” of the world! Darkness conceals, light reveals.
Hosea is only one of the prophets who hold the religious hierarchy accountable for the condition of the nation. This is a constant theme in Scripture. In fact, God goes so far as to say that because the leaders did not follow His commands concerning capital punishment, He will require their own lives. If we really want to find the point of failure for the current ungodly world, we need look no further than the leadership of the Church. What a shame? Somehow we think that God won’t bring the same judgment He brought on Israel when they followed the same disobedient path.
I am posting two new articles on the website, one from Abraham Lincoln and one from Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss. Both are connected to this important topic.
The Torah says in Numbers 15:30 that if you willingly and knowingly break the Sabboth that you are cut off from Isreal. So, if I buy gas on the Sabboth, causing a man to work on the Sabboth which is against the Torah, when I had a choice not to cause it was not a life or death emergency, am I cut off from Isreal?
Keep doing it and the end result will be pretty severe. But since there is no reason not to change behavior, the correction is simple – although not always convenient.
“But since there is no reason not to change behavior?” Huh? I don’t understand what you are meaning. And what is “pretty severe”. Are you , or are you not, cut off from Isreal? Cause if you are then why would you need to correct.
OK, I’ll try again. You asked about buying gas on the Sabbath. Engaging in economic activity is work so it is forbidden on the Sabbath. But, as you said, it was not an emergency. So, there is no reason NOT to buy gas and therefore the correction in behavior is simple. Just don’t buy the gas.
Once you know that you are not to engage in economic activity on the Sabbath, then you make the correction. But obviously there are a lot of Christians who, for reasons unknown to them, do not abide by these commandments. They are ignorant of Torah. So, they have yet to see what they are doing. God is merciful, so I am inclined to believe that He does not cut them off in their ignorance. He brings them to see the truth and then they become accountable. It might take a long time to re-train so I suspect the lesson will be played over and over until we all get it.
My question is an area of real searching for me right now.
If Sabbath keeping is as important as the comment “pretty severe” (Skip’s comment above) why is it not mentioned in Acts 15 as a necessary requirement for non-Jewish believers? The only reasoning I’ve come up with is that since everyone was meeting on Sabbath there was no need for this Council in Acts 15 to repeat what was already the common practice. That would seem to be an argument from silence which is pretty weak.
If Sabbath keeping is so important why is not clearly stated as such in the writings of the Apostles to non-Jewish believers?
Sabbath keeping is clearly and unambiguously laid out as not just important but life-threatening in Torah… no question there. And, the failure to keep Sabbath sent Israel into exile in Babylon. But, Acts 15 clearly releases non-Jewish believers from the obligations of being Torah observant.
I see wisdom in Torah observance. In fact I see many other wonderful things in Torah observance. But I do not see the kind of “pretty severe” consequence for not keeping Sabbath. If, as Acts 15 retells, non-Jewish believers in Messiah are not held to Torah how can there be the kind of “pretty severe” consequences from not keeping Torah?
How can I be released from the obligation of keeping Torah but come under condemnation for not keeping Torah?
Dan this is an excellent and spirit filled observation. I certainly do not in this venue need to compile the vast stores of revelation within the Word that declare “One Torah for both home born and stranger”. There simply can be no debate.
As you pointed out as well there are reasons why The Apostles did not re-emphasize all of the major Torah components that would have been simply “understood” such as keeping Shabbat.
Today I believe that there is confusion in the body of Mashiach still regarding Torah. Some Jewish believers want to horde Torah as a means of maintaining their unique Jewish identity while purproted christian believers continue to cry legalism … so as to not have to be Jewish (ha-ha) and of course to not have to be obedient.
We of course know these positions are nonsensical and not of The LORD!
To the main point however … regarding Skip’s assessment of “pretty severe punishment” for disobedience. In my humble opinion I think we should just accept the fact that Yeshua is the one who sees through to the heart and soul. It is He Who will determine the genuine (or not) nature of our faithfulness. As Skip points how though … if Ruach is putting obedience on your heart and one is prone to delude themselves not to obey …. then this is a very slippery slope.
Personally, despite our shortcomings, I would think that we should all attempt to obey …. in all matters. Not for brownie points but simply because of the gift of redemption. I can not accept any notion of being released from obeying Torah. And I do not presume to choose which parts of Torah I accept as valid. It should be all or nothing!
Yeshua also made it clear as to what happens to those who preach against Torah.
Ultimately I believe the Noachide regulations were meant to simply be the beginning for Genitle believers. The nature of haderech (the path) would have presumed a Hebraic lifestyle filled with discipleship and community development and as such the Gentiles would have been folded in deeper as their knowledge of haderech grew.
But alas … our way was lost … but now it has been found! So how should the lost sheep react after coming back home? Like a stranger or a family member?
Shalom
OK, we have to start with your interpretation of Acts 15. You are correct that the reason Sabbath-keeping is not mentioned is simply because there was no need to mention it. Everyone kept Sabbath in the Messianic community – both Jews and Gentiles who were part of the movement. You can easily and correctly infer this from James’ remark in Acts 15 that there are thousands of adherents to Yeshua and they are all zealots for Torah. In addition, Paul routinely visits synagogues on his missionary trips, preaching to the members on Sabbath. Everywhere you look in the New Testament, you find Torah-observant behavior, including the self-declaration of Paul and his willingness to take on the vow payment as a sign that he is fully Torah compliant.
So, what about Acts 15. Rabbi Bob Gorelik points out that the 4 things required by the Jerusalem Council are all directly associated with pagan idol worship. In other words, they are not exceptions to Torah. They are declarations that if you are going to be a follower of Yeshua, you cannot at the same time participate in pagan practices. This has nothing to do with Torah exclusions or relaxing the Torah for Gentiles. It is about the culture of the Gentiles in the first century – a culture where fertility cults predominated the environment and where the early “church” took a stand against all such idolatry.
Basically, the New Testament documents, written by Jews, simply ASSUME Torah observance. There is no reason to mention Sabbath-keeping if it is the standard practice. Furthermore, if we are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, that is Kingdom language and assumes a Kingdom constitution of regulations and expected behavior. There is only one place where God reveals the structure of the Kingdom – in Torah. What would ever make us assume that He changed His mind? Except a Greek-based two covenant replacement theology, of course.
Inference as a method of establishing mandatory/rule based doctrine is a slippery slope. Who gets to decide when inference is to be used? What are the rules of the road for inference based doctrine? It is a big leap to take James statement in Acts 15:21 as referring to non-Jewish believers in Jesus in addition to believing and non-believing Jews who have synagogues “in every city” who preach Moses.
My question was not whether or not the early church – Jew and non-Jew – met on Sabbath. They did. No question about that in my mind.
My issue was with the “pretty severe” statement.
I have been listening to Bob Gorelik and am learning much. But, if I understand how his position on Acts 15 is being represented – which is that the Council of Jerusalem told non-Jewish believers that they NEEDED to keep Torah/the exact opposite of the traditional view – I absolutely disagree and have solid backing for it. (If I am misinterpreting how Bob’s view is being presented please excuse and correct me.)
I have been digging into my resources today on this subject and it has been great fun. I have found that people with impeccable Hebraic, academic, and Christian credentials and who themselves seem to be Sabbath keepers (if you read between the lines) agree that the Council of Jerusalem released non-Jewish believers in Jesus from keeping Torah but strongly cautioned them (us) to keep the Noachide laws…in which Sabbath is not included.
If, as others with much deeper Hebraic backgrounds than me agree, Acts 15 excepted non-Jewish believers from a REQUIREMENT (sorry for shouting, I don’t see how to underline in the text box) of Torah observance then Yolanda would not be in line for the “pretty severe” that was stated.
For the record some of those with the Hebraic, academic, and Christian credentials with whom I agree on Acts 15 include: Dr. Roy Blizzard and Marvin Wilson. Another who I think also agree include Dr. Brad Young. Dr. Blizzard in particular weighs in specifically on this issue.
Can believers observe Sabbath? Absolutely!
Should believers observe Sabbath? Probably (My view I know others strongly disagree)
I know this is a long post but I want to put forward what my wife and I do:
In November we started setting aside one day a week as a day of rest… Please note that I do not say Sabbath… I say a day of rest…in keeping with the Spirit of Sabbath.
We have experimented doing it on Saturday (true Sabbath) and Sunday. We were open to doing it either day.
We don’t know why, but we both prefer doing it on Sunday. It really has nothing to do with any religious overtones. On our day of rest we watch DVD’s together of Bible teaching. Sometimes we do it for 7-8 hours sometimes we do it for 3 hours. Sometimes we take a drive together and, among other things, discuss what we have been studying. I asked her when we started this to not prepare any meals on our day of rest. We generally eat leftovers, but occaisionally she really wants a specific food for dinner and she makes a meal.
What ever we do, we do it in agreement, and we do it together.
Like many men I am overly driven when it comes to my career. This day of rest has been a God-send. (Pun intended) I have one day a week now when I give myself permission to stand down from e-mail, thinking about business, or worrying if any of my customers or prospects are tyring to reach me.
I can say that I am learning that the Sabbath (even though we do it on Sunday) is made for man… I know I’ve heard that somewhere before. 🙂
Oh my. I am so sorry.
This is interesting helpful stuff to me Yolanda. It’s great way to learn.
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Please do not assume the greeks/gentiles/non-Jews all believe in two covenants or two covenant replacement theology. I am a non-Jew, but “Abraham” is my father also. He is a father of many nations just as my Father in heaven is also. “out of every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue, we are called to be part of the one body. We (all of us) are united not by the keeping of the Torah or even by remembering the ten words given to Moses. We (gentile and Jew) are united by Messiah and his death,burial and resurrection from the tomb. The one covenant that unites us all is this: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
We are one (body) “in Christ”. Take another look in the Tanach at the little book of Ruth. Ruth- the bride of Boaz was a half-breed. She was (gasp!) a Moabite and also part of the blood-line of the Messiah. Christ died for sinners and for the sins of the whole world. Have we left anyone out? G-d so loved the Jew. G-d so loved the gentile. G-d so loved the world. Ya’ll can go on all day about the law if you would like to and I am not out to discount the double value of this law because it does very much apply to everyday life and living, but the main thing needs to be kept the main thing- let us unite as sinners at the foot of the tslav (the cross) and let very atoning blood of the Chosen One (continually) cleanse us from all sin and impurity. Let us remember “G-d was in Christ”, reconciling the world unto Himself. The redeeming and atoning blood of Christ applied to a sinful heart by grace through faith is what will produce a changed heart and a changed life, one that pleases our Father. I now have living and residing inside of me the spirit of the living G-d, His very breath, enabling me in my daily walk and talk to keep His commandments and live. “Behold, the Lamb” is the master theme of the Word of G-d from Genesis thru Revelation and as we look unto Him, He will provide bountifully what we need for our daily breath,bread and blessing.
Everyone seems to be stumbling over “pretty severe.” Let me clarify. Being carried off the Babylon is what I consider pretty severe. Of course, that was correction of the last resort. And it worked. Israel has never again fallen into idolatry.
It seems to me that most comments are reacting to the idea that God would “punish” those who do not keep Sabbath. I think we need to clarify the difference between punishment and chastisement. Punishing is associated with wrath. It is the end of mercy. But chastisement has restoration as its goal. It is about reconciliation to proper relationship. The actions taken might look pretty severe but the purpose is holy reunion, not eternal damnation.
Now, I will refer these comments on to Bob to get his response (hopefully). I wouldn’t be surprised if he agreed with Flusser (since he was a student of Flusser). But that doesn’t really alter my desire to keep Torah even if I am not bloodline Jewish. And I know that Bob does not consider Acts 15 to be about Noahide covenant. Anyway, a nice lively discussion so far. Thanks everyone.
Skip,
I believe that the stumbling over “keeping Shabbat” and even more so “living a fully integrated Biblical lifestyle”, just underscores the fact that our heritage needs to be taken back. I will explain.
When we look back on Israel and the Eternal Covenant it is extremely clear that Torah was simply not the collection of ordinaces, statutes, judgments and commandments. Torah was meant to be the representation of the individual and community lifestyle. Not just spiritually and psychologically but also physically. In the context of the eternal covenant it was therefore open rebellion, high handed blasphemy, to reject the Shabbat or any Mo’adim (appointed times) for that matter. But let us remember the proper context. This context was one in which families and the entire community were keepers of the covenant. As such an Israelite would never have an excuse!
So clearly today we have a tremendous dilemma on our hands. We have masses of believers seeking to take back our heritage and what is facing us is terror and fear. Once we get to the point where the scales begin to come off of our eyes we realize how disobedient and unfaithful we really are; how wayward our churches have become. We realize what the standard of “kadosh” really means. But we have not had the benefit of the Biblical upbringing! Generation to generation really does not apply to us because the heritage has been rejected by our church ancestors.
So the natural defense mechanism response is that it is OK if Torah is not adhered too. It is OK if I uphold Torah in a non-literal fashion…. one of our own interpretation! G_D will be merciful and understand that it is too difficult for us. But I believe we need to move past this mind set. Once we come to the understanding that the eternal covenant is alive and well and that we are Israel, we should seriously consider the ramifications.
My point is that it would be awesome if everyone’s walk brought them to the realization that the Biblical heritage is for each and every one of us. And for those that do come to this place … then a decision needs to be made does it not? And it is a terrifying decision for us because it entails a dramatic lifestyle change.
But I also believe that there will be many that do not get moved to this extent along their journey. This does not beckon total doom as long as their relationship with Yeshua is/was real (in my opinion). However there are purposes and consequences that need to be considered.
Ultimately I believe the Spirit of light and truth does not argue against the brethren. For believers in this community that are struggling with the dilemma described herein I will pray for all of you. For those believers that have accepted the ways of the covenant and embrace the adoption into Israel, please chime in and let everyone know what a difference it makes in your lives. There is only one path for both home born and stranger.
Please, please mishpocha be wary of advice (even good intentioned) that only moves us away from our destiny which is to be a people set apart … a people that are “kadosh”. Ruach HaKodesh would never inspire a believer to move away from YHVH. As such Ruach HaKodesh would never inspire a believer to reject the mitzvot of Adonai!
Praise and Glory to ELOHIM!
This is not the only time I have so appreciated your comments. Thank you.
There is just so much to be gained by sharing. The Lord speaks to so many of us in different ways, through different experiences …. it is just amazing is it not?
Accepting how little we really know and to be humbled is the only legitimate response to YHVH.
So when one in the Body Of Mashiach gleans something from another … praise Yeshua! Because as we know it is ALL ABOUT HIM …. all things, all ways, all the time!
Drew, I don’t know you so I’m concerned that you will personalize my comment on your posting. Please do not. This issue and allied issues are on my mind literally multiple times per day and understanding them so as to effect my behavior is the goal of that level of concentration. So, this lively debate is helpful to me.
That being said my take (If I’m wrong let me know) is that you are equating fear and terror with those who do not keep Torah. Am I wrong? If so, what I say below is not true.
Here is why I bring this up: The only view point that I see focusing on fear and consequences is the viewpoint that says we are required to keep Torah.
There are very competent scholars who have immersed themselves in all things Hebraic including multi-year study with people like Professor Flusser who take the position that Acts 15 releases non-Jewish believers in Yeshua from a REQUIRMENT to keep Torah.
Each of those scholars teach the wisdom of keeping Torah as a matter of wisdom, etc.
So what. The “so what” is that even among Hebraic believing scholars there is not a unanimity of belief as it concerns the meaning and interpretation of Acts 15. It is great to have a position and to defend it but at the end of the day all view points should, in my opinion, allow a space for some humility in their statements because their brothers in Yeshua who are just as degreed, just as versed in all things Hebraic take an opposite view.
Do you know why so many of the Jews of Jesus time missed him as Messiah? Because they lacked humility in their approach to scripture. Since they KNEW that they were right they spent their energy defending their rightness and lacked the humility to allow for, or examine anything that differed from their beliefs… even if the one bringing the different “take” on something had excellent credentials like say raising someone from the dead.
And so, they missed the very one they were looking for. I don’t want that to happen to me. Consequently, I am taking it slow and deliberate and praying for God’s help to maintain an appropriate humility in my approach to this new world of Jewish/Hebrew foundations.
I’ve already experienced being absolutely right in my beliefs only to find out that my beliefs were absolutely wrong. I want to try and avoid that experience a second time.
Thank you. I so appreciate your comment about the people missing Yeshua when he was right in front of them because they were more focused on their righteousness. When this happened to me, I didn’t know which was more sad to my heart, the thought of breaking Torah, or the lack of empathy from my brothers and sisters in YHWH. Your words were encouraging.
First, let me congratulate all of you. This discussion is so wonderful. What a great opportunity to take serious time and effort to hear each other out without deciding to split the congregation. Unity above all else does not mean CONFORMITY. What is true of rabbinic thought for thousands of years is that they all agreed it was God’s Word, they just couldn’t quite agree on exactly what it meant – and they were perfectly OK to allow differences. Boy, do we need that!
So, now another comment for the mix. I don’t believe I ever said that we are REQUIRED to keep Torah. That is the position of the legalists that Paul took to task. What I believe is that we are invited to keep Torah because it is the way God wants us to live. Why? Because when we keep Torah God is able to make magnets out of us and fulfill His purposes for the holy nation of priests. Insofar as I do not keep Torah, I prevent God from fully using me. That does NOT mean that I am not one of His people. He sees to that – not me. Grace is a gift that I do not and cannot earn. But usefulness to God is up to me. He sets the conditions and I choose to follow them.
So, if I choose to follow Torah as much as possible, God will see to it that I become a useful vessel for His glory. If I do not follow Torah, He will use what I do offer Him. But this is USEFULNESS, not DELIVERANCE. If we are going to understand Scripture, we must very carefully distinguish the two.
So, scholars who argue that the Acts 15 council did not REQUIRE Gentiles to be Torah observant in order to be accepted by God are absolutely correct. Acceptance is not conditioned by anything a man does to merit it. But that is not the same as deciding to be observant because God calls me to His purposes through His government by His instructions.
Well stated Skip.
Why spiritual conviction levels for different folks? I don’t know but think this must be in accordance with His plans.
Perhaps Skip you can provide some insights regarding the difference between belief and faith however. Clearly there are plenty of folks who have an intellectual acceptance of Yeshua however this translates into nada transformation. No ceasing of the old man’s ways. And in some cases the results may even be wondrous works while the old man’s ways continue!
As John points out (see below), as does all of Scripture, there is a difference between talk and walk.
1st John: 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Yeshua Mashiach the righteous: 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of Elohim perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Clearly John is not discussing merit in this inspired writing. But he is connecting the fruit of behavior with our validated relationship with YHVH through Mashiach. My question then …. “what becomes of the liars who do not know Yeshua and do not perform T’shuvah?”
I know this is a difficult question … but the hard ones are always the best don’t you agree?
Yeshua Himself also discusses not knowing Him in Matthew: 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I think Skip there is a little bit more to Torah than purpose. And on this note I will declare that we are agreed that Torah is not for earning salvation.
Please do not think that I am utilizing a few selected passages out of context; these passages are in context and pertinent to the discussion at hand. I hope you have time to respond!
Skip, doesn’t Chazon mean, Vision, and Hazon mean, Community⁉️
written 10 years ago, the proper spelling of the word was missing. It is, of course, ḥāzôn, with a Chet at the beginning. I tried to indicate that with a underline, but perhaps that wasn’t obvious. The referenced verse, Proverbs 29:18, uses ḥāzôn, “vision.”
Two comments on the issue of “belief” vs. “faith.” First, faith is a verb in the Hebrew worldview. We would be better to translate it as “being faithful.” The idea is fidelity, trustworthiness and reliability – all expressed in action. Perhaps this is why God uses marriage as the symbolic analogy. There are many people who are “married” on paper (they have a marriage license) but they are not married in action. They do not act with trustworthiness and reliability toward their spouses. And I don’t mean that they have affairs. I mean that they do not accept or practice the role of man and woman, husband and wife as described in Scripture. For example, how many husbands are thoroughly Greek in relation to their demand to “run” things.
Second comment: When the Bible addresses itself to warnings and judgments, most of the time those are given to people who think they are inside the household of God. Matthew 7 is a good example. Notice that the things that these people do are all religiously correct. What is missing is not the outward display but the inward fidelity. Once again, the marriage contract versus acting married. The most serious warnings come to those who think that outward religion qualifies them as believers. These people have the right theology. They know the correct propositions. But they fail to live accordingly. They are convenient Christians who fit the context on Sunday but forget the context on Monday.
Now, in relation to Torah, most of these people fail miserably, not because they are simply ignorant but because Torah-obedience doesn’t fit their accommodation to the culture. Christianity does. I can be a Christian and fit right in – most of the time – because Christianity is not severely demanding anymore. It has accommodated to the culture. So, Sunday worship is fine. Bacon cheeseburgers are good. Shrimp cocktail is delicious. Charity is not an obligation. Taking care of myself comes first – and my church second. My tithe goes to support a building. The government will deal with the poor. On and on it goes. Torah cuts across all this. Even if I am aware of Torah principles, they are very inconvenient. Why can’t I buy gas on Saturday? I need it.
Faith is not what I believe. It is what I do!
A man may say what he believes but he does what he values.
Thanks guys. It is wonderful to have a place for virtual fellowship and discussion.
Blessings on you.
Absolutely agreed. It is indeed a blessing to have such a venue! 🙂
And finally …. on this issue … please tolerate one more comment which I feel necessary.
As straight forward as I may have personally presented the role of Torah observance to be I know that it can be quite difficult to say the least.
Undoubtedly there are many, many believers who are not really cognizant of Torah observance as a means to lifestyle/behavior discipline and growth. However this does not mean that the important and weightier matters of Torah are not prevalent in their lives. Loving kindness, tzedakah/charity, humility and genuine faith. I think on this we could all agree! 🙂 Through Spirit many believers raise the Torah banner high despite not having a detailed knowledge of same within the context of The Word or cultural heritage.
So please one and all do not think for a moment that I would ever imply there is a correlation between strict observance of Torah and standing with YHVH in terms of acceptance. I hope that no one was thinking this! Ultimately a true believer’s actions will point to the weightier aspects of Torah.
There is indeed however a huge advantage, benefit and blessing with the embracing of Torah. Torah helps us fashion our lives in alignment with YHVH’s character and through us His character can be made even more manifest to all the nations. Additionally Torah observance clearly aligns us with Israel and the ways of living handed down to them by YHVH. Torah brings the Body Of Mashiach together from a lifestyle and community perspective. I believe observance of Torah is a primary means of shedding our individual lifestyle desires and moving into the community. Torah observance is less about me and more about us! 🙂
And in the end as we all know it ain’t about the individual but HIM … praise His Holy Name.
Again … thank you one and all for the comments, et. al.
I read this thread with interest last night and it seems that everyone is talking about the motivations for keeping Torah but there is one prime motivator that God uses that I don’t see mentioned here. That motivation is LOVE. If I love God, then I do whatever He wants. If keeping Torah is what God says shows my love for Him, then I am going to do it. I am motivated by the desire to put the good of GOD over my own good. I am confident that my God loves me as much as or more than I can possibly love Him, therefore I am not worried about my own (you fill in the blank) or selfish desire. When I am motivated by loving God more than this world, then those things that draw me away not longer hold interest. I will use Skip’s marriage example. When I was single, I was attracted to men, I was looking for a husband. God graciously sent me the best husband in the whole world. I love him so much that there is NO draw toward other men. I am not the least interested. My attention is drawn completely to my husband and his desires. I still want to do things that please him (we’ve only been married 17 years). No matter WHAT he asks me to do, I don’t sit and masticulate on whether he is requiring me to do whatever he asks, I do it BECAUSE of the love I have for him. Torah is the same. It is what we do precisely because we love God and we want to do what pleases Him. Making Him happy makes US happy.
It is not a matter of what we HAVE to do. If we feel that way then we need to reassess WHY we are in this relationship with God. What is the quality of our love for Him? He gave everything for us, Torah keeping is our way of loving Him back.
I agree that vision is often mis-used in church. It is sometimes over-spiritualised in the church and it can be, honestly, a waste of time. Mission (and Jesus’ mission) comes before vision. Mission involves living by revelation of the Word.
However, vision is not limited to the prophets. Joel prophesied about sons and daughters having dreams and seeing visions. The age of the Holy Spirit means you can have a compelling, God-given vision. There is nothing unbiblical about rallying the church around that vision and creating strategies (whether by programming or otherwise) to move in that direction.
However, I just posted about how mission needs to come before vision, or else your vision-casting efforts are a waste of time. Even Moses, who received a clear vision (yes, he was a prophet), had a revelation of the mission God had called him to previous to the vision – to deliver God’s chosen people.
http://visionadvancement.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/casting-vision-is-a-waste-of-time/
It’s been a long time, but Bob Gorelik did send me a reply on his position, and I am just now finding it. So, I will post it here, and then send it my email to those who commented.
Here’s Bob:
The context of the “Council’s” deliberations is established in Acts 15:1-2
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.”
Acts 15 preserves an account of the most difficult and argued-over issue among Believers in the 1st-century! And, here we see the impact it had on the entire Messianic community. So much so that it brought well-intentioned, loving people into a “sharp dispute and debate” with each other over the question – “How do Gentiles get ‘saved.’” Unfortunately, in the 1st-century the “status” of Gentiles, vis-à-vis their relationship with God was not so easy to come to terms with:
1) By the 1st-century, there was a long-standing “feud” between Jews and Gentiles – the “cultural” barriers between them was enormous.
2) Two, the Gentiles represented a “mixed-bag” for most Jews in the 1st-century. There were those who believed Israel had a moral obligation to reach out to them, i.e., to be a “light” to them – and others who were afraid of what would happen if Israel’s “ranks” were “swollen” by too many.
3) There was never a question among Jews whether or not Gentiles could be “saved” – but how they get “saved.” And, the other thing that is important is understanding the profound difference between what Christians think of when the word “saved” is used and what Jews think of. For Jews, being “saved” means being connected to the Covenant that God made with the Jewish people.
In the 1st-century, most Jews (including Peter) believed that Gentiles must convert to Judaism in order to be “saved.” The “men (who) came down from Judea to Antioch” in v. 1 of Acts 15 were typical – not atypical of the larger Jewish community. The discussion between James, Paul, Peter (and the others) clearly establishes several principles regarding the Gentiles and salvation. But, they really boil down to a single one, i.e., that Gentiles are no more “unclean” by virtue of their being Gentiles than Jews are “clean” by virtue of their being Jews (a lesson that Peter learns is Acts 10). Therefore, Jews and Gentiles are both “saved” in the same way – “through the grace of our Lord Yeshua” (v. 11).
As it turns out (contrary to what Martin Luther taught about this issue), the Torah and circumcision have nothing to do with salvation – for Jews and/or for Gentiles. Both are “saved” by grace! That this has always been the case is emphasized by what Peter says (above), i.e., that Jews and Gentiles come to God in the same way – by faith. Now, this does not change the fact that God made a Covenant with the Israel, i.e., with the Jewish people – but it does mean that Gentiles who have a heart for God and want to connect themselves to God’s people can do so. This is why James says what he says. The four “things” that he mentions all have to do with idolatry (they all happen to be in the Torah too). In other words, he is saying that in order for Gentiles “to be saved” they must turn away from idols and worship the One True God. Then he goes on to say something very important;
“For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath” (Acts 15:21).
In my opinion, this reflects the view of the early leaders that while the Torah is not something to impose on the Gentiles for salvation – but it is something that they will learn in the synagogues that they attend. The fact is, almost all of the Gentiles that both Peter and Paul reach-out to in the Book of Acts were in synagogues worshipping God as “God-fearers” (with very few exceptions). The references are many, e.g., Acts 13:26, 44; 14:1; et al.
What is perhaps even more important, at least for the purpose of this discussion, is what did the believing Jews and Gentiles do when they withdrew (or were asked to leave) whatever synagogue they were attending when they came to faith in Yeshua? In is not reasonable to assume that they started churches when they left. The church paradigm was unknown, i.e., the “church” did not exist in spite of the way that the Greek word ekkesia is usually translated. In Greek literature, an ekkesia is a secular assembly, not a religious assembly. Luke uses the word ekkesia the way that it is used in the Septuagint – as a translation of the Hebrew k’hilah – a synagogue (“of the Jews”). By the way, this is also why the word synagogue (when it is used in the Book of Acts) is qualified as being an assembly “of the Jews,” since the Greek word synagogeen can refer to any type of religious assembly.
When the early Jewish and Gentile Believers left whatever synagogue they attended (for whatever reason) – they formed new ones. I know that this view flies in the face of most (if not all Christians), but given what else is said in the Book of Acts (and the rest of the New Covenant for that matter), it is the most reasonable conclusion to draw. These early “assemblies” were organized like synagogues – in fact, the “leader” of the group was known as the “president” – not “pastor” – until 165 C.E. A “president” is the leader of a synagogue – not a church, in the 1st-century.
Call it an “inference” if you want to – but if believing Jews and Gentiles did not worship together in “messianic” synagogues, then why does James even mention the teaching of the Torah? As I mentioned earlier, the Torah was not given to “save” – but it was given to equip for ministry. Isn’t that what Paul tells Timothy? 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2Tim 3:16). The only “Scripture” that existed at the time was the Torah – a term used in the 1st-century to refer not just to the Five Books of Moses – but to the entire Bible.
Anyway, hope this helps – and that you are not more confused than before. It is a complicated issue – unfortunately, made much worse since the 2nd-century.
Be well. Shalom uv’rachot (Peace and Blessings). Bob
P.S. The italic, underlined, bolded and colored texts are used for emphasis – I am not “shouting” either.