Carnal?
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able {to do so,} Romans 8:7
The Mind Set On The Flesh – How are you doing in your fight for sinless perfection? Are you winning the battle every day or have you suffered defeats? Are you a sanctified soul or a carnal Christian?
Do these questions bother you? They should.
Somewhere along the way, Christianity embraced the Greek metaphysics of the body/mind/soul split. When this alien concept crept into Christian thinking, it eventually led to the postulation of a carnal Christian, the believer who has confessed Christ as Savior but does not live with Christ as Lord. This is the person whose life is characterized by actions that do not glorify God but at the same time claims God’s forgiveness and acceptance. The “carnal” Christian has a body under sin’s control but a soul that belongs to God. What? Does that mean God saves only part of this person? Does that mean that what happens in my body doesn’t really matter as long as my soul is saved? A careful reading of the Bible endorses none of this Greek nonsense, but it certainly is a popular way of explaining behavior. Perhaps we need to take another look at Paul’s famous comments about “carnal” Christians (the King James translation of this phrase).
The critical Greek word is phronema. This word covers the entire translated phrase, “the mind set on”. Phronema means “what one has in mind, purposes or thoughts.” In this case, Paul says the purpose or thoughts of this mental condition is sarx, the flesh. This should remind us of the passage in Genesis 6:5, “the intent of the thoughts of the heart.” But notice that the Hebrew equivalent does not suggest a split spiritual state where men confess God but act disobediently. In the Genesis equivalent, the thoughts of their minds were given over to evil and, as a result, God brought judgment upon the earth. These were a long way from the “carnal” Christian bifurcation we find today. In Genesis, intent and purpose in thoughts leads directly to judgment, not excuse. In the ancient world, if your mind was filled with purposes of the flesh, you were not standing in God’s grace. You were not redeemed. You died in the flood along with all the other evil people in the world because the mind whose purposes and intents are determined by sarx is the enemy of God. In Hebrew thought, this is yester ha’ra run amuck.
Paul is a Jewish Messianic rabbi. Do you suppose that he entertained the Greek tripartate division of human beings (body, mind and soul)? Not likely. Paul’s anthropology was homogenized; the neshama or nefesh was one person all mixed up together embodied in this world. God doesn’t save the soul and leave the body to rot. That’s Greek, not Hebrew. So, if Paul would never have accepted the division of human being into parts, then how could he possibly suggest that spiritual existence could be divided between the carnal and the spiritual? If the purposes and intents of my mind (read neshama or nefesh) are filled with hostility toward God, doesn’t that force us to conclude that such a person is not redeemed? After all, this person is an enemy, not a humble seeker. This person is dominated by the yester ha’ra, not struggling against the evil inclination in order to be obedient to the Lord.
Does that mean that Christians are only those who no longer experience the fight for personal holiness? Of course not. That fight goes on for a long, long time. But the person who isn’t fighting probably isn’t domesticated to God. I am either motivated to obey and struggling to do so, or I am capitulating to the evil inclination and comfortable with the result. I am either fighting for God or fighting against Him. There are no fence-sitters in this war.
Topical Index: yester ha’ra, sarx, phronema, mind, body, soul, Genesis 6:5, Romans 8:7, carnal
and then rabbi Paul goes on to say.. “O wretched man that I am- who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” He was having an awful time wrestling with “the battle within”. And what is this “battle?” We already know the answer. It’s in front of our faces when we look in the mirror. We face the same condition this triple Phd Jewish master faced “back in the day”. He did ask the right question though, didn’t he? That’s what good teachers do.. -ask the right questions. So, ask yourself sir or ma’m (or senator Boxer), “Who shall deliver me?” Whose very name means “deliverance?” Whose very (holy) name (HaShem) is “salvation?” What is meant by the poignant phrase “for whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD, shall be saved?” Does G-d say what He means? Does G-d mean what He says? According to my weak interpretation of these remembered words; “whosever will” includes a lot of folks. Gentile and Jew. Rich and poor. Tall and short. Male and female, etc. “For all have sinned”, I read in this book. What does “all” mean? Does “all” include the chosen few? Does all include someone who is Irish or Methodist or Presbyterian or Chinese or vegetarian? “..Does “all” include me? “Thou shalt love the LORD, thy G-d with “all” thy heart, soul, mind and strength” Yes, I’ll agree, we Greeks love to analyze -what is the heart? what is the soul? etc., but the single word we (all!) need to “analyze” is what does “all” mean? What does “all” mean in Hebrew? What does “all” mean in Chinese? What does “all” mean in Bulgaria? .. I’m ‘just sayin.’ I wonder if my wife loves me 100%? I know I would “love” for her to love me with all her “heart, soul, mind and strength”. Now if she would just live within those 613 rules for domestic tranquility. And while she’s busy trying to remember not to offend in one point, I’ll be analyzing her body parts.
Thanks Carl. I think you certainly captured the spirit of the issue. While I reject completely the idea that a Christian can be carnal (that is, can be a follower who doesn’t have to follow), we certainly all know Romans 7 as part of our lives. We battle with the flesh. But the proposed “carnal” Christian doesn’t battle. He lives by the flesh while claiming to be in the grip of the Spirit. How can a man be a citizen of the Kingdom but put himself on the throne? No, I’m afraid that Bill Bright missed this one. Those who are followers agonize over sin. Those who are carnal simply sin.
I agree Skip! Although only He can search and know the hearts of people to judge … there is a difference between calling “Lord … Lord” and “professing Yeshua”.
Throughout the Psalms … read them carefully … we can see how David “calls” upon The Lord. Look how often these calls are associated with strengthening, with faith, with righteous behavior, with joy and with agony over our condition … our sin!
The Word is also pretty clear that ELOHIM does not listen to His people when they have broken relationship with Him!
Ultimately it is a battle … and at some point we need to let our King lead us into the battle. Oh a typical start is trying to rush into battle on our own … yes bravery is good but we will lose in the end unless we get behind the King Who lives within us.
So perhaps Skip there are those that are battling and losing simply because they are charging on their own … those that have not given up to Yeshua all the way … yet?
Sadly there are those that are not battling at all! Those who are comfortable “in their skin of sin” 🙁 These are people who may believe in the historical Yeshua but are not of the faith!
“a Christian can be carnal (that is, can be a follower who doesn’t have to follow), we certainly all know Romans 7 as part of our lives. We battle with the flesh. But the proposed “carnal” Christian doesn’t battle.”
Please bear with me, I’m totally lost today.
What is a “carnal’ Christian?
oops, my question for Drew was what is the a difference between calling “Lord … Lord” and “professing Yeshua”.
The reference to “Lord, Lord” is the verse where Yeshua says, “Why do you call me Lord but DO NOT DO what I say?” Good question.
You missed the best part of the quotation. It is “While I REJECT the idea that a Christian can be carnal”. In other words, there are a lot of people who said the sinner’s prayer, confessed once in their lives and were summarily told that their eternal destiny was secure. They then proceeded to live as though god had nothing further to do with them. I do not consider these people followers. I do not believe in “once saved always saved.” I think that perseverance is part of the deal. But I am not the JUDGE here. All I can do is hint at these things from my reading of Scripture. It is a thorny issue, but this much is clear. If God infects my life, things MUST change. I cannot be a follower who does not follow – and that is the essence of the carnal Christian (one who is saved but doesn’t live like it).
Thanks Skip. I understand now.
Michael, what is wrong? Is everything in order?
You said, ” Please bear with me, I’m totally lost today.”
Maybe I am reading more into this then just having a bad day, if I am, I’m sorry for reacting. I’m concerned.
Sometime you are really clear and easy to follow, but sometimes you seem to go places that you can’t explain. You know what I mean?
I want to Bless you this Erev Shabbat.
“Blessing over the Sons”
May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May He cause His face to shine upon you.
May He lift up His countenance and grant you peace.
May you be as Ephraim and Manassah.
May the Lord with you ever be.
May He bring you home unto the land prepared for thee.
May God bless you and grant you long life.
May the Lord fulfill my Sabbath prayer for you.
May God make you a good husband and father.
May He prepare a holy wife for you.
May the Lord protect and defend you.
May His Spirit fill you with grace.
May your family grow in happiness,
O hear my Sabbath Prayer. Amen.
Sorry for vanishing during such a lively thread … but shalom once again.
Indeed Skip … we are in agreement. Our relationship with Adonai is hinged upon t’shuvah (not simple sorrow but repentance …. a genuine return to Him)! If we do not need to change our behavior then why would we need to be forgiven and provided grace through the precious blood of Yeshua?
So acceptance of His grace really mandates our t’shuvah does it not? It is the covenant … old … new … everlasting! We may not have been able to affect our salvation but we surely are required to respond to such mercy.
No t’shuva = no transformation = no reconciliation = lukewarm Laodicean = spit out!
As glorious as the truth of The Gospel is we best remember that He is wholly righteous. He gave us Yeshua … He punished the apple of His eye … I am not thinking that He will provide mercy to phony baloneys!
Hi Carl,
A bit cryptic, but good stuff here.
Mike
and then rabbi Paul goes on to say.. “O wretched man that I am- who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
He was having an awful time wrestling with “the battle within”.
And what is this “battle?” We already know the answer. It’s in front of our faces when we look in the mirror.
We face the same condition this triple Phd Jewish master faced “back in the day”.
He did ask the right question though, didn’t he? That’s what good teachers do.. -ask the right questions.
So, ask yourself sir or ma’m (or senator Boxer),
“Who shall deliver me?” Whose very name means “deliverance?” Whose very (holy) name (HaShem) is “salvation?”
What is meant by the poignant phrase “for whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD, shall be saved?”
Does G-d say what He means? Does G-d mean what He says?
According to my weak interpretation of these remembered words; “whosever will” includes a lot of folks.
Gentile and Jew. Rich and poor. Tall and short. Male and female, etc.
“For all have sinned”, I read in this book. What does “all” mean? Does “all” include the chosen few?
Does all include someone who is Irish or Methodist or Presbyterian or Chinese or vegetarian? “..Does “all” include me?
“Thou shalt love the LORD, thy G-d with “all” thy heart, soul, mind and strength”
Yes, I’ll agree, we Greeks love to analyze -what is the heart? what is the soul? etc.,
but the single word we (all!) need to “analyze” is what does “all” mean?
What does “all” mean in Hebrew?
What does “all” mean in Chinese?
What does “all” mean in Bulgaria? ..
I’m ‘just sayin.’ I wonder if my wife loves me 100%? I know I would “love” for her to love me with all her “heart, soul, mind and strength”.
Now if she would just live within those 613 rules for domestic tranquility.
And while she’s busy trying to remember not to offend in one point,
I’ll be analyzing her body parts.
Hi Antoinette,
Bless you for thinking of me 🙂 And thanks for sharing your concern.
Just in case you didn’t realize it, the content I sent Carl was a reformatted version of his reply to Skip this morning.
When I first read Carl’s reply to Skip a number of things “jumped out at me,” for example “O wretched man,” so when I reread it I reformatted it and shared it with the community.
When I was trying to understand the relationship between Carl’s “O wretched man” and Skip’s “Carnal Christian,” I got totally confused and frustrated and shared my wretched state with the rest of you. Please forgive me.
I have been going through some tough times, but thanks to the spiritual support I get from this group, I’m going to survive 🙂
Again, appreciate your concern.
Mike
Baruch HaShem!
Hey Michael,
We are a team – all of us – knit together by the blood of the Lamb. So,
What can I do to serve you today?
Skip, may I rephrase your last paragraph? Sitting on the fence means you have fallen short and NOT crossed over to the other side! Just like indecision about Christ is actually a decision against Him.
Weak preaching/teaching produces weak results. The un-Godly fear that is present in “carnality” has caused much ruin in the lives Yeshua came to redeem. We must pray brothers and sisters for one another and those appointed to the Kingdom, for discipleship that is pure. No more “tickling of the ears” please, Tell me the truth and the Holy Spirit will make me like it! My “sarx” won’t like it, my spirit will thrive on it!
Blessings to each one.
Amen Mary, please keep bringing the truth no matter the pain to my flesh, it needs to lie down and submit to the spirit that I may follow in obedience.
Isn’t it possible to live a Holy life? Isn’t that why we were given the Holy Spirit? If it were not possible, how did Enoch get out of here like he did?
Even Enoch didn’t get out of here based on HIS righteousness. No one does. So, is it possible to live in holiness. Of course. That’s why God calls us to that goal. Do we fail? Yes. That’s why there is forgiveness. Do followers demonstrate a consistent pattern of failure? I would hope not. Does that mean I will get to the point where God has no more improvements in mind for me? I don’t think so. Actually, I would be surprised if we did not continue to be conformed to the image of His Son in heaven. Do we really think that we will be so perfect by the time we arrive that nothing more needs to be restored? Remember, the Hebrew idea of holiness is a VERB – actions directly by God. The Greek idea is a NOUN – a state (static) of being. Which one do you think fits the biblical account?
Couple of questions if you have the time, Skip:
1. King Saul is a puzzler for me and is one of those who is championed by the carnal Christian camp (that you can be carnal and saved – in fact, that if you started by truly believing but ended by rejecting, then it is the true belief at the beginning that matters in terms of eternal destination, i.e. the once-saved-always-saved concept?). Certainly, at best we can probably agree that Saul seemed to have begun well but finished very badly. Any thoughts on King Saul? In your view was he a God-follower who died losing the battle but will be in heaven or was He never truly a follower of God?
2. I know you mentioned where the term “carnal Christian” came from or who coined it but like Paul Harvey used to say, I would like to know “the rest of the story”. Who coined and when was the term coined and is there any backdrop to this and why this term stuck like it did?
The term “carnal Christian” was coined (I believe) by Louis Sperry Chaffer about 75 years ago. He coined the term to describe what he was observing in the church, namely hordes of people who had an initial experience with God but never exhibited the transformed life. In other words, he developed an “excused” category. I think Yeshua would have called these people the seeds that fell on the wrong soil.
As for Saul, God is the only one who decides this issue – just like everyone else. Solomon presents a more difficult issue for me. Everything I read in the Bible suggest perseverance is the name of the game. It doesn’t look like starting well means much at the end. But who am I to know.
First, Skip, let me say ‘thank you’ for Spiritual Restoration series. I’m more than 1/2way thru Vol 2 and 3 is waiting in wings 🙂
The main reason I responded here is that my daughter and I are praying for my son and his family. They sure seem to fit the term ‘Carnal Christians’. I have grave concerns for them with one foot in church and the other in the world. Thanks!!!
On a different, but not unrelated “tack”, I have been struck by the implied indictment of the “carnal Christian” community through the recent “Doonesbury” syndicated cartoons in the newspaper. They have, I am sure, resulted from the recent spate of politicians “confessing” to various “failures”. Doonesbury really hits our collective hypocrisy hard with his cartoons, and I for one am glad to see him asking the questions I so often fail to do.
Since I rarely if ever read the papers, perhaps you would be kind enough to scan and send me a collection of the cartoons. I would gladly use them.
I’ll see what I can do, Skip – the papers get thrown out every day at our house! I’ll try to send you a link.
Skip (et al.), I’m still not sure I agree with the view that Paul’s ideas and theology were without influence from Greek culture, that is, “purely Hebrew”. He was living in post-Alexandrian Palestine, and even given the staunch repulsion that Jews had towards Greeks during and after the Maccabean (sp?) revolt, there still were a great number of Greek ideas getting thrown into Judaistic thought… (Also, and I may be totally wrong here, correct me if I am, but I thought that Paul’s Pharisaic teacher (?) Gamaliel was one of the more liberal members of the Jewish intellectual and religious community, as opposed to the staunch traditionalism that rejected any novel interpretation…but, again, maybe that’s just a wild fantasy of mine, I don’t know). What I’m trying to say is that I don’t see the logic of “he was a fanatic follower of the Law before his conversion; therefore he was one after his conversion as well”. I thought one of the points of Paul’s conversion was that he changed… But anyways, specifically, I was surprised to read that Paul had a homogenized view of human nature. I remember a while back I was completely confused as to where Christianity got this crazy tripartite view of “spirit-soul-body”, but I then stumbled on 1 Thessalonians 5:23: “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Now I would think on first glance that this advocates a tripartite division. But I also know quite well how misleading first glances can be… How does this verse fit it with what you are saying?
Let’s see if I can point us in the right direction. First, it is certainly true that Hellenization was part of the first century world of Israel (Palestine is an invention of modern times – such a place did not exist in the first century). But the Pharisees in general were traditionalists. They rejected the more liberal readings of the Saduccees. Paul was the top student of the group and, as we can see from his use of Scripture and his defense in court, he endorsed the traditional view. For more on this, read Brad Young, Paul: the Jewish Theologian, and Tim Hegg, The Letterwriter (both on the recommended readings list: https://skipmoen.com/about/recommended-reading-list/)
Now, the tripartate view of man. The philosophical background is all Greek. The idea arises early in Greek philosophy and is developed in Plato. It is based in the Greek dualism of the material and the spiritual. Paul never endorsed such a philosophical view. However, Paul writes in Greek and since there is no Greek equivalent to nephish, he is stuck with Greek words that capture the Hebrew homogenization. Reading the text from a Greek perspective implies breaking apart the unit. But that imports a philosophical position that was never part of the Hebraic worldview. So, we need to read Paul’s Greek from a Hebrew point of view and allow that his use of Greek phrases will at time strain the Greek vocabulary. Furthermore, Paul’s Greek is not based in classical Greek but rather in the use in the LXX where these Greek phrases find their true Hebrew home. For further study, read the several articles found in the TDNT, TDOT and TWOT (on the reading list).
Will do. Thanks!
Skip, I am always impressed with your outline of God’s Truth and it does inspire me to seek the absolute service God requires–76 and day by day–making progress–God bless you!!! fran
Just a little late:
1 Thess. 5:23. I accept the neshama of Hebrew thinking as against Greek pneuma, sarx and soma, has this passage been fractured too?
Bob
Yep. The body, mind, soul collection is the Greek equivalent of what in Hebrew would be nephish. Of course, Paul is thinking Hebrew, so we cannot presume that he means that human being are three nicely discrete components. This means that it is not possible to save a “soul” without saving the mind or the body, etc.
Skip, after reading your reply to Carl, that reminds me also of the delima of Paul in Gal. 2:ff without a Greek word for legallistic, legalism, legalist. He had only nomou. NASB uses “works of the Law.”
I am 62. I sat with my 36 yr son and his friends last evening listening to them discuss obeying YHWH in helping people in need. One spoke of helping a co-worker get a car fixed. One of giving some money to a single mom with kids. They are not thinking of repayment.! It is wonderful to listen to them talk of the joy they received after doing those things. They were full of joy after obeying the commands of Adonai. After they went home, I had to weep before YHWH in thanksgiving. Even now my heart is full.
Bob
Wonderful! This is what distinguishes followers – that they love (verb) one another. Doing righteousness!
I was just reading the Parshah, and it occurred to me that Deut 11:10-17 is about the same lesson we are discussing here. in TW.
10 “For the land, into which you are entering to possess it, is not like the land of Egypt from which you came, where you used to sow your seed and water it with your foot like a vegetable garden.
11″But the land into which you are about to cross to possess it, a land of hills and valleys, drinks water from the rain of heaven,
12 a land for which the LORD your God cares; the eyes of the LORD your God are always on it, from the beginning even to the end of the year.
13 “It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul,
14 that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil.
15 “He will give grass in your fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.
16 “Beware that your hearts are not deceived, and that you do not turn away and serve other gods and worship them.
17 “Or the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the LORD is giving you.
Antoinette,
No doubt this discussion is addressed IN SO MANY PLACES .. 🙂
I could not get past the very beginning of EIKEV without having this TW thread strike home.
Deut 7,12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye give heed to these mishpatim, and are shomer, and do them, that Hashem Eloheicha shall be shomer over the Brit unto thee and the chesed which He swore unto Avoteicha;
Back to Michael’s question earlier … the difference between calling “Lord, Lord” vs. professing Yeshua … here it is once again. Obey and Adonai will keep the Covenant of Mercy.
False faith is a theme which surfaces often within The Word. And we know that themes which appear often should be scrutinized …. Sh’ma Yisrael!
Shabbat Shalom
Hey Drew, I like all the Hebrew words in your version, what version are you using?
It is the OJB – Orthodox Jewish Bible …. frankly it is awesome … here is the link and you can download the PDF version. http://www.afii.org/ojbible.html
The link is at the very bottom of the very long web page … well worth the pull down.
Thousands of key transliterated words in this version and it is all inclusive … Tanakh and B’rit Chadasha!
And of course check out their site …. quite excellent Messianic Jews!
Wow thanks Drew!
My pleasure 🙂 … I hope you are as blessed by this work as I have been!