Jerusalem. The dual city of God.

By John C. Thorman

During the tour of Israel with Dr. Moen and Rabbi Gorelik in October 2009, Bob Gorelik made reference one evening to Jerusalem and the temple as being existent in heaven before the creation of the world.  Immediately upon hearing this statement I remembered the Greek Philosophers and their metaphysics. Plato said that the perfect existed as an unchanging form in the transcendent or eternal world of being, and that its copy or changeable and imperfect appearance existed in the physical world of becoming that we experience as humans. Given the tremendous influence that Greek Philosophy had on the early church fathers and their construction of a systematic theology that synthesized Greek Philosophy with the Bible, Rabbi Gorelik’s comments are very interesting. Is there really a perfect and transcendent Jerusalem that exists in eternity and if so what impact does that have upon the believer in Yeshua as the Messiah? Clearly, this teaching would have been easy for the early church fathers to embrace as the popular philosophical position of Plato’s forms would integrate so easily if this was already an accepted Hebrew concept.

The history of Jerusalem dates back to the 4th millennium B.C.E. making it one of the oldest cities in the world. In Rabbi Robert R. Gorelik’s book, Israel-Tour Companion, Gorelik says that Jerusalem appears in the Old Testament 669 times and Zion (which usually means Jerusalem, although sometimes the Land of Israel) 154, for a total of 823 times in all. The New Testament mentions Jerusalem 154 times and Zion 7 times (p.21).  Under King David circa 1000 B.C.E., Jerusalem became the capital city of the nation of Israel and the epicenter of Israel’s religious and cultural identity with the building of the first temple under King Solomon. It remains so to this day and explains why Jerusalem is regarded as the most holy city for both the Jews and the Christians. What is odd though is that the Muslims have their third most holy site, the Dome of the Rock which is on the temple mount, in Jerusalem. There is some disagreement as to whether the Muslim’s actually consider the city of Jerusalem itself as a holy city for their faith, or if they just revere the holy site on temple mount. Regardless, the Muslim’s third most holy site in the world is located in Jerusalem, behind Mecca and Medina, yet none of it is ever even mentioned in the Koran.

According to Islam, the prophet Muhammad was miraculously transported from Mecca to Jerusalem, and it was from there that he made his ascent to heaven. The Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aksa Mosque, both built in the seventh century, made definitive the identification of Jerusalem as the “Remote Place” that is mentioned in the Koran, and thus a holy place after Mecca and Medina. Muslim rights on the Temple Mount, the site of the two mosques, have not been infringed. Although it is the holiest site in Judaism, Israel has left the Temple Mount under the control of Muslim religious authorities. (Bard, par. 17)

The Muslims have fabricated and perpetuated quite a tale of how they captured the Christian controlled city in 638 C.E. (see Gorelik’s Israel-Tour Companion, p. 22-24) and with a few short periods of time as exceptions, the Muslims have basically controlled the temple mount area ever since.

Today, Jerusalem is the capital city of Israel and its most populated city at approximately 760,000 residents. Jerusalem is located in the Judean Mountains; situated 60 kilometers (37 miles) east of Tel Aviv and the Mediterranean Sea and 35 kilometers (22 miles) west of the northern tip of the Dead Sea. Jerusalem’s population from 1844 to 2009 is shown in the following table:

Jerusalem’s Population

Year
Jews

Muslims

Christians

Total
1844 7,120 5,000 3,390 15,510
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030
1896 28,112 8,560 8,748 45,420
1922 33,971 13,411 4,699 52,081
1931 51,222 19,894 19,335 90,451
1948 100,000 40,000 25,000 165,000
1967 195,700 54,963 12,646 263,309
1987 340,000 121,000 14,000 475,000
1990 378,200 131,800 14,400 524,400
2009 476,000 247,800 15,200 760,800

Table 1 (JewishVirtualLibrary.org)

The city of Jerusalem is unlike any other in the world. While she is known as the city of peace, from its Semitic root s-l-m which means peace, this is perhaps the world’s greatest irony since no other city in history has been more bitterly fought over.

“There have been at least 118 separate conflicts in and for Jerusalem during the past four millennia – conflicts that ranged from local religious struggles to strategic military campaigns and that embraced everything in between. Jerusalem has been destroyed completely at least twice, besieged twenty-three times, attacked an additional fifty-two times, and captured and recaptured forty-four times. It has been the scene of twenty revolts and innumerable riots, has had at least five separate periods of violent terrorist attacks during the past century, and has only changed hands completely peacefully twice in the past four thousand years” (Cline, p.2)

The city of Jerusalem has been at the center of controversy between the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Isaac for well over a millennium now. The appearance is not one of victory for God’s chosen people throughout history, but is that the reality?

An etymological investigation of Jerusalem produces much uncertainty, but the name is generally understood to have a Semitic origin. According to The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, the name Jerusalem comes from:

An Egyptian notice from the third quarter of the nineteenth century B.C. mentions Urusalimum. The Tell el Amarna correspondence of the fourteenth century B.C. refers to the town as Urusalim. The Assyrians called it Ursalimmu. Modern scholars take these names to mean “founded by the god Shalem,” a god of the Amorites (Jerusalem is said to have been founded by Amorites and Hittites; Ezek. 16:3, 45). In time, however, the second part of the name became associated with shalom (“peace”) in Hebrew minds, and Jerusalem came to mean “city of peace”. Romans and Greeks called it Hierosolyma. To the Arabs it is El Kuds, meaning “holy town”. (Unger, p. 675)

Sadly, Unger’s dictionary doesn’t get it right. Any examination into the origins of Jerusalem will soon lead the investigator to Melchizedek and the deep mysteries of God that directly link Melchizedek and Abraham with Jerusalem and with the Messiah.

The city of Jerusalem is first mentioned in the Old Testament as the city of Salem (Gen. 14:18) and the city is tied directly to Melchizedek and Abram. “After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley). Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth. And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand. (Gen. 14:17-20) It’s interesting to note here that while it makes sense for the king of Sodom to be there following Abram’s victory, there doesn’t seem to be any justification for Melchizedek’s presence, yet there he is.

According to Rabbi Gorelik’s audio teaching on his website (eshavbooks.org) called “Melchizedek”, the name Melchizedek means king of righteousness. So, Melchizedek the king of Salem (peace), is also a king of righteousness and according to the text itself, Melchizedek is also a priest of God Most High. This is quite amazing because that means before Israel is ever a nation and before the Abrahamic covenant is ever cut, there is Melchizedek; a king of righteousness and peace, and a priest of God.

The Hebrew form of Jerusalem is Yerushalayim and it first appears in Joshua 10:1. Gorelik’s teaching on Melchizedek says the name Yerushalayim is arrived at by connecting Melchizedek and Abraham to this holy city at the same time so that neither one of them is offended. On the one hand is Melchizedek, who possesses an eternal priesthood as seen in Psalms 110:4 and he is the king of Salem. On the other hand there is Abraham who becomes the father of the nation of Israel and the father of faith thru his obedience to God by taking Isaac up to Mount Moriah and being willing to sacrifice him. Mount Moriah of course is the exact physical location where centuries later Solomon built the temple in Jerusalem. Now, when Abraham reached the summit, God called out to him and told him not to harm his son saying “Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son” (Gen. 22:12). As a result, Abraham called that spot “YHWH yireh” which means God sees, unfortunately our English translation gets this verse wrong (Gen. 22:14). “You see, the text doesn’t say Abraham named this place “The Lord Will Provide.” He names it YHWH yireh, a name we have bastardized into Jehovah-Jireh. It literally means, “YHWH sees.” It is the interpretation of the translator that coverts this verb into a statement about God providing” (Moen, par. 3). Because God sees, He saw Abraham’s need and then responded to it by providing a solution for Abraham. So, according to Gorelik, by joining together the significant attributes of Abraham and Melchizedek we get Yireh (from God sees) and Salem (from the city of peace) to arrive at Yireh-Salem or God will see peace. As you can see, Yireh-Salem is pretty close to Yerushalayim.

This is where things begin to get really interesting! In Hebrew grammar the ending –im indicates the plural and the ending –ayim indicates the dual. This has lead to the suggestion by many that the name Yerushalayim refers to the fact that the city sits on two hills, or to signify the upper and lower cities that comprised Jerusalem. However, this geographic justification for the name does not adequately explain the dual nature of the city from a spiritual and eternal perspective which one would expect from a Hebrew worldview, especially when we are dealing with the significant mysteries of God. Consider other examples of God renaming people and their spiritual significance, like Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, and the given name of the Messiah which is Yeshua (it’s not Jesus) because Yeshua means salvation. If one accepts the rules of Hebrew grammar, then Yerushalayim means that there are actually dual or two Jerusalem’s. Since there is only one, constantly changing appearance of Jerusalem on the earth, the other Jerusalem, the dual Jerusalem must be the form; or the perfect transcendent Jerusalem in heaven.

This is not the stretching of an overactive or hyper-spiritual imagination. There is ample biblical evidence to fully support this position. And, given the tremendous significance that God Himself and the Hebrew people placed on naming people and places; this needs to be taken seriously.

There is an eternal priesthood represented by Melchizedek that is later fulfilled by the Messiah and there is an eternal sacrifice represented by Abraham being willing to offer his only son Isaac that is later fulfilled by the Messiah too. It is only fitting and logical then that there also be an eternal city of Jerusalem that is represented later by an actual physical city which is fulfilled under King David for the nation of Israel.

But there’s more. A physical dwelling for God’s Name was required on earth as God instructed Israel throughout the Old Testament saying there will be a “place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name” (Deuteronomy 12:5,11,21. Cf., 14;23-24; 16:2,6,11; 26:2; 1Kings 5:5; 8:29; Nehemiah 1:9; Psalms 74:7; Jeremiah 7:14). Since God’s name is eternal, “Your name, O LORD, is everlasting, Your remembrance, O LORD, throughout all generations” (Ps 135:13), it stands to reason that His Name must also then have an eternal dwelling place, which is the perfect form. The existence of this eternal and perfect form can also be seen in the instructions given to Moses on how to fashion the tabernacle.  “Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you” (Exodus 25:9). “See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain” (Exodus 25:40).  “Set up the tabernacle according to the plan shown you on the mountain” (Exodus 26:30). “Make the altar hollow, out of boards. It is to be made just as you were shown on the mountain” (Exodus 27:8). What exactly is the pattern that God showed Moses? The word pattern that is used in the previous verses is the Hebrew word tabniyth (strong’s # 8403) which means structure; by implication a model, resemblance: figure, form, likeness, pattern, similitude. It comes from a primitive root that means to build, rebuild, or cause to continue or be permanent. From this we can say that what God showed Moses was the actual perfect eternal form that was reality. It was the perfect heavenly structure that Moses used in replicating it and making it appear on the earth.

The real and eternally existent nature of God’s kingdom, His holy city Jerusalem and His Temple is presented repeatedly in the Psalms. The following three verses all use the same Hebrew word owlam (strong’s #5769) which means time out of mind (past or future) which by definition means that it is eternal.  “The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps 110:4). “Those who trust in the LORD Are as Mount Zion, which cannot be moved but abides forever” (Ps 125:1) and “Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And Your dominion endures throughout all generations” (Ps 145:13). For a priest to function in an eternal kingdom, it logically follows that he would also require an eternal temple in an eternal Jerusalem.

Not only is the existence of an eternal perfect form in heaven made clear in the Old Testament, but God’s progressive revelation continues with the author of the book of Hebrews when he writes “They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain” (Hebrews 8:5) It is further demonstrated in climatic fashion by John in Revelation 21:2 where it is said, “And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The most significant implication of this dual Jerusalem concerns the perfect sacrifice of Yeshua to pay the debt of all the sins committed by every living soul in the world, from Adam and Eve to all those who are yet to come.  Yeshua’s execution on the cross at Golgotha and his subsequent resurrection must have been a copy of what had already taken place in heaven! The Son of God must have been sacrificed on the perfect altar, in the perfect temple, in the perfect holy city of Jerusalem. This happened of course in heaven before the creation of the world because that is reality. His execution as a man in the earthly Jerusalem must have been a copy of that reality. If this is not true, then all those souls before Yeshua, all those who believed into God and had placed their faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would not have had the penalty of their sins completely paid for. This sin stained state would have prevented them from having a direct and personal relationship with a Holy God. But, the patriarchs and those God fearing souls before them did in fact have a relationship with God. They loved God, worshiped God, heard from God, and interacted with God. Judaism’s sacrificial system was only a dim copy of what Yeshua had already done perfectly for them in reality, and would do in appearance as the only begotten in the future. The sacrificial system was another step in the progressive revelation of God’s perfect eternal plan. But, it was an early foundational and necessary step in that plan. The sacrifices were a physical manifestation, an appearance of the eternal reality so the Hebrews and the rest of mankind could understand the tremendous weight and consequence of sin before a Holy God and thus their need for the Messiah. The sacrificial system itself didn’t save anyone; it was merely the prescription for approaching the Holy God of creation by ensuring the ritual purification for those sins committed unintentionally and its efficacy was limited to pay for only those sins committed unintentionally. There was no sacrifice in the Mosaic Law sufficient to pay for the sins of man that were committed intentionally!

So, the social impact of deliberate sin becomes the concern of the judicial system but the religious and spiritual impact of deliberate sin oversteps the sacrificial provision and rests entirely with God.  Until God dealt with this critical issue, no man – from Adam to the present day – could be forgiven of his intentional violations of holiness.  God did deal with this issue in the perfect sacrifice of His Son “before the foundation of the world.”  It is on this basis alone that there is forgiveness of deliberate sin.  The Old Testament and the New Testament do not present two opposing means for forgiveness.  They present one uniform, eternal provision. (Moen, par. 7)

So, the Messiah’s coming, His appearance on earth and the shedding of His innocent blood fulfilled or made complete what had already happened in heaven. The shed blood of the Messiah was the visible manifestation to mankind of what had already taken place, just as the Mosaic Law was a copy of heaven’s events.

“The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming – not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship… But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” (Hebrews 10:1-4)

Why did God demand the sacrifices of the Mosaic Law if they couldn’t remove sins? “It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these” (Hebrews 9:23). Well, the sacrifices were indeed efficacious at removing the debt of unintentional sin and to provide for ritual purity so one could approach the holy God. But, none of them were permanent so they had to be repeated continually, and none of the sacrifices provided for sins that were committed intentionally. That’s why Yeshua had to die, and he died on earth as a copy of what He had already completed perfectly in heaven before the creation of the world.

Yeshua, as our eternal high priest in the order of Melchizedek would have offered a single sacrifice on behalf of all the people of the world. Yeshua would not have offered a sacrifice on behalf of himself because he was a perfect high priest. He offered the ultimate sacrifice, himself, on heaven’s altar on behalf of all people before the creation of the world. Then He would make his appearance on the earth to do it again in our sight. This truth can be seen in the Messianic prophesies in Isaiah 53, and again in Hebrews. In Isaiah 53 we have a prophetic voice declaring the coming of a Messiah for our redemption, describing the actions in a past tense, indicating that they have already happened yet they are going to happen in the future. “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” (Isa 53:5) The author of Hebrews wrote, “When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption” (Hebrews 9:11-12).

So, did Plato read the Hebrew Scriptures? What or Who were his influences that allowed him to articulate an idea of an imperfect world of becoming that was separate and yet connected to the transcendent and perfect world of being? Plato was born in Athens in 427 B.C. and died in 347 B.C. which was the quiet time between the testaments. Jerusalem and Solomon’s temple were destroyed by Babylon in 586 B.C., and the Jews didn’t rebuild the temple until 516 B.C. However, the city of Jerusalem wasn’t rebuilt and the spiritual vitality of the nation restored until the time of Nehemiah and Ezra around 444 B.C. or just prior to Plato’s birth. Is there a connection to the decline and fall of Israel and Judah in the east and the proliferation of Greek Philosophy in the west? While interesting to consider the implications of Israel’s disobedience and subsequent judgment on the spiritual and philosophical development of the world, Dr. Moen reminded me about the motivation behind Plato’s concept. The issue for Plato was the eternal versus the temporal.  Dr. Moen told me, “It isn’t necessary for him [Plato] to be influenced by any Hebrew thought in order to come to grips with the passing away of all that we observe. That sets the mind on a quest for what is permanent. Plato reaches the conclusion of another universe but without the instruction of the divine, so it becomes a universe of eternal forms rather than relationships. That is in concert with the Greek linguistic structure of things.”

The Bible does reveal to us God’s pattern of a heavenly and eternal Jerusalem first, and then a dual Jerusalem on the earth second. And, Plato rightly discerns God’s created order when he articulated the distinction between the eternal or transcendent form, from the temporal copy or appearance on earth; and he did it without divine inspiration.

The dramatic and significant lesson in this is that before God created the world and set in motion the events of history, YHWH had already redeemed mankind from their future sins in the first Jerusalem with the perfect sacrifice of the Messiah on heaven’s altar.


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Carlos Berges

¡Interesante disertación. Les feicito y bendigo por tan profundo estudio! Me asombra la sabiduría de Dios sobre ustedes. Bendiciones.

John Thorman

Carlos,

I called my son-in-law to translate your comments for me (His family is from El Salvador). So, thank you for your kind words! I’m glad you enjoyed it. May the blessing of God shadow over you too.

Saralou

Thought provoking–thank you! Bless you!

The other time I heard the 2 im Jerusalem things was Billye Brimm speaking of a painting in an Israeli synagogue depicting the tip of an inverted pyramidal heavenly Jerusalem touching the tip of the earthly one pointing to the sky. Don’t remember any more of the teaching save the scriptures pointing to what’s done in heaven will be mirrored here.

Wonder how all that fits with the scriptures of the nations.

John Thorman

Saralou: You are welcome… thank you! I had not heard of the dual Jerusalem issue until this came up while we were there in Jerusalem. But, as far as how all of this fits in with the scriptures of the nations, I’m sorry I don’t know.

Gayle Johnson

John,

Thank you for this, it is great! I was so intrigued, and as I was reading through, I realized how it answered the question for me that I have always had about ‘. . . who for the joy that was set before Him, endured the cross’ (Heb 12:2). I believed that He knew about this beforehand, but I didn’t know HOW he knew about it and it always bugged me! Your explanation is a graphic one I can see. LOL!

John Thorman

Gayle,

Thank you for your kind words. I’m glad you were so intrigued because I did too, it was fascinating to me. Glad it helped answer that question for you so you can see it!

Amy Gomes

John,
Thank you for putting it all together for me..I have had these pieces of information rolling around in my head but you have successfully pulled them together and made sense of them all! I would give your paper an A+ (professor Skip).

John Thorman

Amy,

So good to hear from you my fellow traveler. Now, how much do I owe you for the A+ plug? Just kidding. It is very rewarding for me to hear that my effort helped you pull some pieces together and make sense of it all. Thank you for saying so!

Gilbert Posey

The Glory of the New Jerusalem

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

There were three “houses of God” commissioned to be built in scripture. Moses, Solomon and Jesus. All three built after the divine pattern of the heavenly tabernacle. (David given the pattren but could not build because he was a man blood shed but Solomon built according to the pattern given his father David)

Zechariah 6:12-13 12 Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying:
“Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!
From His place He shall branch out,
And He shall build the temple of the Lord;
13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord.
He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule on His throne;
So He shall be a priest on His throne,
And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’
The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

With Jeremiah 23:5-6 and Isaiah 11:1 Along with I Corinthians 1:30 and Acts 13:22-23 It is easy to see Jesus is The Branch, the decendant of Jesse through David, is building the Temple of the Lord.

I Corithians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
I Corinthains 6:19 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
I Peter 2:5 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ
and finally
Ephesians 2:19-22 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been abuilt bon the foundation of the capostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being dthe chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into ea holy temple in the Lord, 22  in whom you also are being built together for a gdwelling place of God in the Spirit.

This is parallel to the commissions for Moses and Solomon where the Temple was to built as a dwelling place for God to dwell among His people. The New Coevenant is establish on better promises. The only thing better than God dwelling among or near you, as in the Old Covenant, is God dwelling in You! On the corporate level, then, every believer is a living stone to be fittly joined together with other living stones as one Temple (Jew and Gentile). This Temple is not yet complete because many are not yet born again “stones are still being gathered to complete this house.
The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville
The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville
The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville
The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

John Adam

Wow! This makes great sense…thank you!

John Thorman

John,

Thank you sir. I’m glad you enjoyed it and I’m glad it made so much sense to you. It was a very interesting and rewarding process for me to write it.

Bob

This is a good article on a subject most have not thought of. Through out the N.T. is told that the O.T. was a shadow of what was in heaven. Everything that was made on earth i.e. the tabernacle was made to the exact dimensions given by God, which suggests that there was one already made in heaven. Your article gives us a way of tying it together. Thanks

Mary

Masterful work, John. Excellent. I was reminded of a song containing the lyrics:
“John the Revelator, saw Jerusalem coming down…”

Zach

Hi John,

Awesome to read your article. I lived vicariously through you. I say that because I followed your thoughts and found myself hearing you from what I read from you, and discovering it with enthusiasm and excitement as I can tell you did. Thank you for taking a lot of food to digest and condensing it into a sitting. My gratitude toward my God, YHWH, and my hunger for His living word grows as I learn more of the Hebrew worldview.

wayne super

Outstanding work!!

John Thorman

Thank you all very much. Your comments are a real source of encouragement for me.

James Watkins

John,

I am deeply moved by your article. Your skills as a researcher and writer are outstanding. There is much to ruminate on here. This article is as deep as any I have read ever. Thank you very much for your hard work, and for sharing this link with me.

James

Sonni Poulsen

Thank you very much for this write up. Thoroughly enjoyed it as I am intrigued by the diametrical differences between the two biblical cities of Babylon and Jerusalem. This only adds to the wonder of Jerusalem.
Not sure I understand the heavenly city to be ‘eternal’ as far as a beginning. Like to think that only God is eternal, and everything else is created?
Once again, really appreciated this article,

Sonni Poulsen