Order-Takers
For not the hearers of the law are justified with God but the doers of the law shall be justified. Romans 2:13
Doers – This is a nearly impossible verse for Augustine and Luther (and those who follow their lead). It’s impossible because Paul unequivocally says that those who do the commandments of God are justified. Actually, it’s even worse than that. Paul says that those who merely hear God’s commandments but do no do them are not justified. This is about as strong a statement about the necessity of following God’s instructions in Torah as you will find in the New Testament. And it comes from the apostle of “grace.” What can we say?
A quick look at the Greek confirms the dilemma. The word is poietes, from the verb “to make” (poieo). It clearly means someone who performs the required commandments. There’s not much wiggle room here. Paul says it plainly: justification comes from keeping the commandments.
This conclusion is so antithetical to the long-standing Christian doctrine of sole fide, sole gratia that we are apt to do whatever we can to reinterpret Paul’s statement. Unfortunately, we don’t take Paul seriously. We retain the paradigm rather than recognizing that something doesn’t make sense. It isn’t Paul who is confused. It’s our interpretive scheme. Thanks to Augustine, the early church fathers, the Reformers and the evangelicals, we would rather believe what we want to believe than listen to the apostle. Paul doesn’t see conflict. Grace and works form a covenant together. We are the ones who split them apart – and we have struggled with this text (and others) ever since.
So, Today’s Word is not about this text. The text is clear enough. Today’s Word is about the paradigm that causes us to read the text as either a problem for our theology or a confirmation of Paul’s unity of law and grace. This paradigm is based on an association between the general pagan religious requirement to placate the gods and the Jewish idea of works of righteousness. Pagan religions often view men as victims of the gods. In order to survive in this world, paganism requires that men offer sacrifices to appease the gods and gain their favor. We find this thinking in all kinds of pagan religions, from the worship of Ba’al and Moloch to the Greeks and native Americans. When thinkers read passages in the Bible that described sacrifices and worship rituals, they connected these with pagan appeasement. Therefore, they thought that Israel practiced a more sophisticated version of appeasement theology. This association became the opposing idea to Christian grace. In other words, according to this paradigm, Judaism developed from prior pagan rituals but was still connected to the basic idea of placating YHWH, an ancient god of anger.
Christianity takes a significant step forward by rejecting this ancient pagan idea. According to this paradigm, Christianity rejects any connection between “earning” God’s favor and prescribed religious rituals. Therefore, Christianity stands opposed to Judaism.
This paradigm is not based on Scripture. It is based on a general concept of religion, independent of the actual prophetic tradition of Israel. Therefore, it reads the Hebrew Scriptures within the paradigm – and ignores or reinterprets contradictory passages to fit the paradigm. The biggest problem is really right in front of us: How do we take off the blinders?
Unfortunately, many wonderful and devoted believers will not be able to take off the blinders. The paradigm is so much a part of their way of looking at the world, and has been reinforced by the Church for so long, the very idea that there might be another way is so frightening they refuse to consider it. They are sure of their beliefs, so forget the problems and the text. This is the way it has always been. It takes enormous patience, gentleness, yes, and sometimes shock, to remove the fear of examining the text. For some, it just isn’t going to happen.
But here’s the caution. We can’t make it happen either. This is God’s arena. We live according to our understanding of His unity, and He uses us to bring about awareness and truth. Insistence will not turn the tide. Love will. It is important to be aware of the paradigm shift that brought about this unwarranted chasm. It is important to know that Scripture is consistent in its grace-Torah perspective. But “love your enemies” is still the authorized way of life. Seek truth. Live Torah. Hope in His faithfulness.
Topical Index: paradigm, law, grace, Romans 2:13
Is it possible to teach an old dog new tricks? As a matter of fact, it is. The dog must trust its owner that the trick is worth while and the owner must practice much patience with the dog. I am so glad that God is patient with me. He is teaching me new ways of thinking. He uses a lot of folks to do this. Skip is only one of those pushing me; teaching me; and encouraging me to develop a different way of looking and seeing. I may be an “old one” but I can learn and am leanring. Thank you, Skip.
Christianity stands opposed to Judaism. No, it does not.
The master theme of G-d’s book is: “behold, the Lamb.” G-d’s “plan” of salvation was concealed in the Old covenant and then revealed in the New. Throughout this very unified book written over a wide span of time by multiple authors runs a very red thread. It is the “blood covenant.”
The “blood covenant” is also very related with the “threshold covenant.” Both are ages old, worldwide, and very ancient in their origins.
I’ve noticed the word “blood” seems to be missing in much of our writings to each other. We much rather prefer discussing “law” and the keeping of the commandments. Why did Christ die? What was this “shedding of blood” for? (As an addendum to Torah no doubt..) No, no and no again.
The “law” was (and is) a “schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. To show us and to reveal unto us our need for a Savior/Deliverer. “I had not known “sin” except by the law.” “Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.”.. (no problem… right?) .. sure. “No problem”, except one.- “no can do”- I’m not “perfect.” (gasp!) – I am a sinner in need of a Savior.
And how do I “know” I am a sinner? – Thank you, Dr. Law (a holy, shining piercing light) revealing to me the “blackness and horror” of my sin-. Houston, we have a problem. A condition has developed. You see, I am a sinner by birth and by choice. Yes, I have intentionally chosen to sin. Stupid?– “uh-huh..”- very.
Every “choice” is followed by a consequence. We reap what we sow. (Another of G-d’s laws). Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. Sin leads to sickness, sorrow and separation. (as if you needed to be reminded..)
We are still “stuck on stupid..” What to do about this “sin” problem. Hey.. Let’s all “try harder!” That’s it! Strain… push… pull…– we don’t even know what direction to go- what a bunch of sheep.- We need a Savior. Let’s become “educated” about our sin and learn all about it. We’ll become “garbologists” and study trash. We’ll dissect, disaassemble, diagnose and come up with a cure. — “news flash”— this “just in”..
And the blood of Jesus Christ (G-d the Son) cleanses from all sin. (What’d He say?)- I thought I just read something about the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing from all sin- what I need now is someone to interpret and translate these words for me. Is Anybody there? Redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb? Hey.. what’s that all about? Christ died according to the scriptures, was buried and raised again the third day?
Luke 24:27 “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.” Did I just read the words- “all the scriptures”? Old Testament and New? “Every?” word of G-d is pure? What is the Author really trying to say here? (by the way- Who is the Author of this book?) (and “who is this king of glory?”) – what was “that name” again?? Yes, Paul, “who” shall deliver me from the body of this death? I need a Savior. – and Who would that be?
Yes, friends.. G-d is a G-d of order.. 1,2, and 3. By grace.. through faith.. unto good works. An apple tree will bear apples because it is an apple tree, but not until it becomes “an apple tree.” How will anyone “know” I belong to Him? – “you shall know them by their fruits”.
Grace and law do not “compete” with each other. They “complete” each other. I (an adopted Gentile) rejoice and celebrate the deliverance given unto me by the Messiah. Sin no longer has dominion over me. I belong to YHWH- He is my Father and I am now His son. I walk in a new covenant relationship with the G-d who gives unto me my daily bread and breath. Yeshua said, “I am.” I confess- “He is.”
Because I now belong to Him, it is my (new) “heart’s desire” to please Him in all I think, say, and do. I am able (through His Ruach Hakodesh), to now enjoy “keeping” His commandments (and actually grieve when I don’t!) I (now) delight in doing what pleases my Abba. This is my (G-d given) passion.
“For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.” (Titus 2.12)
In the past G-d overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. (Acts 17.30) “all people everywhere”– did He leave anyone out?
Looking for a “commandment to keep”? Acts 17.30- a great place to start..
HI Carl,
I so much appreciate your continued efforts on this blog. You are faithful contributor, much to everyone’s benefit.
I think the statement that Christianity competes with Judaism needs to be set in the proper context. While we who see the continuity of the testaments and the unity of the message would agree that there is technically and intentionally no distinction, that is not the position of most of the Christian world. Due to replacement theology, most denominations (and unfortunately, most believers) see Christianity as something opposed to Judaism. Thus the attempt to get Jews to “convert” to Christianity. Since we know that the modern view of Christianity really has its inception in the works of the early church fathers with the help of Plato, we can quite assuredly say that Christianity, as expressed in the world today, stands opposed to Judaism. It is a tragedy, but a reality.
If Christianity stands in opposition to Judaism, then would it not be accurate to say that Christianity stands in opposition to Yeshua? Is it accurate to call ourselves “Christians” knowing what that term means today? I have considered these issues, but I would welcome any input concerning what others think.
would it not be accurate to say that Christianity stands in opposition to Yeshua
Hi Barry,
I think it is too complicated an issue to be reduced to a simple statement, but it is an important issue to discuss.
I tend to call myself an ex Catholic.
Shalom Barry,
Your question is a valid question: “If Christianity stands in opposition to Judaism, then would it not be accurate to say that Christianity stands in opposition to Yeshua?”
I believe the correct answer must separate “believers” from “christianity”. From an institutional perspective I don’t believe we can continue to argue against the obvious: “the fabricated and embraced theology of mainline christianity stands in opposition to Biblical Judaism and in opposition to Yeshua”!
On the other hand we know that Yeshua is all about relationships … personal and communal. As such we must acknowledge that some percentage of “christians” do firmly believe in and maintain a relationship with HaMashiach. It must be so for the fruits of Faith permeate their lives … despite the bad theology they may be exposed too. We can see the true believers as those “who overcome”!
Sadly it is the community relationship that we see suffering the most. The church is not the community … the collection of true believers is the body of Mashiach and right now we really can not look at this collection and see a homogeneous people can we? This collection of believers has yet to take hold of its identity (Israel) in order to become “the people set apart”. A people living as the constituents of a Kingdom should live … living under the constitutional ways set forth by THE KING … constitutional ways as handed down by ELOHIM in Torah!
Ultimately the ramifications of such a conclusion, as Skip and many others point out, is virtually inconceivable for the vast majority of Christianity … at the present time! At the same time the vast majority of “traditional Judasim” fails to see the light of Mashiach … at the present time! But should we doubt the capability of ELOHIM to have HIS purposes accomplished? Of course not! The Hebrew people were separated from the land for nearly two thousand years … but have returned. The Gentiles have been separated from Torah (the way) for nearly two thousand years … but are returning. THE LORD will accomplish HIS purposes and continues to do so in ways that we typically do not comprehend until well after the fact.
So back to the original question: Does Christianity stand in opposition to Yeshua? Perhaps this is best answered with other questions:
“Do we believe that Christianity will be the ways of the Kingdom when Yeshua returns?”
“Do we believe that Christianity reflects the organization and order of the community that will be in place when Yeshua returns?”
“Do we believe that the b/nei Yisrael will abandon their ways for the ways of Christianity when Yeshua returns?”
As for the time being? THE LORD will continue to work with what HE has …. with us. The timing and effectiveness of our purposefulness is directly related to our trust and obedience. As for the institutional entities of Christianity … they belong to this world order and will die with this world order!
At the end of the day only Yeshua knows the hearts’ intent of individual people … now and at the end game! For us that believe there is a fullness of faith and living and purpose missing from traditional Christianity, we should first modify our walk towards the image of our Master and when provided the opportunity do as Yeshua did … give testimony to the power of this truth! Let us not belittle the ignorant or mis-led but rather spread the news of how The LORD has worked wonders in our own lives! The testimony of obedience is premised upon personal experiences … not personal understanding!
And if this news yields a sword instead of peace … there is not much we can do! Yeshua told us so!
Hi Drew,
Very nicely stated! And your questions are good ones.
Drew,
Thank you for your response. Your questions target the issue and define the tension, and although they do involve a look into the future, it would seem obvious that the answers are “no.” Further, your summary point is well taken: “And if this news yields a sword instead of peace … there is not much we can do! Yeshua told us so!” While I personally prefer peace, I must not be afraid of the sword.
thank you for your reply and for your daily teaching brother Skip.. I have learned more from this website in the past five years than I have during the past 45 years I have been a “follower of the Way.” I remember during my formative- “tender twenties”, I felt impressed to have a custom ring made consisting of a star of David, with a cross centered in the star. I absolutely knew I had been adopted into the family of G-d and was part of G-d’s covenant blessings. That early passion has been revived in me and now I with increased appetite, I am looking deeper still inside G-d’s book. “Seek and you will find” is the promise of YHWH. Salvation is (and always will be- (no argument/controversy here)- to the Jew first and also to the Greek. G-d’s words are eternal. “I am the LORD, I change not,” the scripture states. I also “subscribe” to several Messianic Jewish websites to stay focused on G-d’s focus. His “chosen ones” are Israel and always will be Israel. I am an adopted son, but with full rights and privileges and a “joint-heir” with Christ. I do not have my finger on the “state of the church”, but rely instead on the promise of our Abba- “I will build my church”. This is the LORD’s work and it is marvelous in our eyes. I am a little cog in a great big wheel, but very blessed to be a cog.
I love the term – “completed Jew”, rather than “converted Jew”. Surprise, surprise- Jesus was/is a Jew. The problem Israel has is the same problem I have- we both don’t have a clue as to “who we are” and “what we have been given!”–lol!
But, at the same time- “Salvation (deliverance is a much more Jewish term!) is offered to all. “Whosoever will” may come. To the Jew first and (praise G-d!) also to the Greek/Gentile/me.
Hi Carl,
You might be right, but I tend to see things differently.
In my view, your path seems sufficient, but not all of it seems necessary.
Let me respond to three of your points, then see what I’m missing.
Carl: “I’ve noticed the word “blood” seems to be missing in much of our writings to each other.”
Mike: I agree that it is missing, but I don’t see a requirement for blood at this point in history.
Carl: The “law” was (and is) a “schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
Mike: Maybe I’m missing something, but won’t obeying the 10 commandments keep us connected to God?
Carl: To show us and to reveal unto us our need for a Savior/Deliverer.
Mike: Isn’t God enough, can’t He serve as our Savior?
“And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself. (Luke 24.27)
They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” (Luke 24.32)
Good morning Michael, and thank you for your reply. I must first ask the question (which is a rather silly question- but still I must ask it.-sorry) I really do not wish to “offend” you but I must ask,- have your read your Bible? (I am not out to insult your intellect or ego- this is just an innocent inquiry into our collective ignorance).
Yeshua said unto the Pharisees- “you do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God”. This particular verse (parsha) repeats itself to me frequently. (Yes, personally) – Carl- “you” do err not knowing the scriptures or the power of G-d. We must “know” the Book. We must study this Book. These are the words of YHWH. These are His words, His instruction, and this is His book. “These two have married and no man shall part, dust on the Bible, and drought in the heart.” Let us “together” do a “blood” inquiry. “Together” let us “explore the Book.”
There is a “scarlet thread” that runs throughout scripture. From Genesis to Revelation it ties the entire contents of the book together. As I have stated before and will reiterate again, on this I stand (and make no apology)- the master theme of our Bible is “behold, the Lamb.”
Beginning with Genesis (a good place to start!- lol!) – the “acceptable sacrifice” of Abel was a blood sacrifice. Cain brought unto G-d his best efforts- he had toiled and sweated and prepared and arranged so beautifully and tried so hard to “please” (or placate) G-d. “There now G-d, aren’t you impressed with my labors?”- (I don’t know, I wasn’t there..)
“Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;” (Genesis 4.4) Why did G-d “have respect” or accept the offering of Abel (a shepherd) and did not accept the “hard work” of Cain?- (to be continued…)
The “scarlet thread” surfaces again in the Biblical story of Abraham and his “only beloved son”- Isaac. (a willing “son”-by the way..) This “story” (which was an actual event!), can be found in Genesis 22.
“Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.” (???) Why would G-d request (not demand) such a thing? Slay the son of promise?– but wait..-there’s more! lol!!
And Abraham said, (prophetically!)- God will provide Himself the Lamb for a burnt-offering, my son. So they went both of them together. (Genesis 22.8) -vaiyomer elohim yireh
If I may.. (Hallelujah!!)- I weep when I read this.. -Why?- but wait!… there’s more!-
On we travel through time and through the unfolding progressive revelation of YHWH to us. In story after story and events, circumstances, trials, afflictions, wars- G-d’s people have a history. G-d “delivers” time and time again.
Then once again -it’s time for that “red thread” to surface to the top.
The “passover Lamb.” -Exodus 12. “When I see what a good life you have lived, I will pass over you.” When I see how much money you have dropped in the plate, I will pass over you. When I see what a fine family you come from, I will pass over you. When I see how educated you are, I will pass over you. When I see you are not near as “bad” as your next door neighbor I will pass over you. When I see your “good works” far “outweigh” your “bad”, I will pass over you. Shall we go on (together?).. -What saith the scripture? (Romans 4.3-KJV)
The Christ has not yet appeared on the scene, but the stage is being prepared for His advent into the world. Once a year the high priest (the cohen hagadol) enters into the holy of holies to make an offering unto YHWH. Have your ever heard of the mercy seat? – Located in the holy of holies the cohen hagadol would once a year (according to G-d’s instruction) place a something red upon the mercy seat. Now what would that “red substance” be? When I see “the blood” I will pass over you. (Exodus 12.13)
“In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.” (Hebrews 9.22) And yes.. there is more.. (always more..)
“For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a Lamb without blemish or defect.” (1 Peter 1.18) A Lamb? without blemish or spot? where have we “seen” that before? oh yes.. I “remember.”
What was concealed in the Old is now revealed in the New. “Behold, the Lamb”. – but wait- there’s more. (always more..) (Have you “discovered” the “more” of Christ?) – Dear brother there is no top or bottom- it goes on forever.. (Hallelujah!- “worthy is the Lamb”)
“And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thy judgments are made manifest.” (Revelation 15:3,4)
“And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.” (Revelation 5.9) Yes!–“worthy is the Lamb!”- but wait!- there’s more..
Hi Carl,
First let me say that my assumption is that we are all in good faith here and that we don’t intend or want to offend each other 🙂
Arguing and questioning is fundamental to learning in my view.
That said, I did not mean that blood is not a fundamental theme in the Bible and I don’t see anything to disagree with in your comments above.
And I agree that the theme of the Sacrificial Lamb seems to tie many of the Biblical themes together.
Seems to me we all have both shared and unique connections to the Bible; but some things resonate to others that don’t resonate to me and vice versa.
For example, on a scale of 1 – 10, Galations 2:14 registers a 10 for me.
Gal 2:14 When I saw they were not respecting the true meaning of the Good News, I said to Cephas in front of everyone, “In spite of being a Jew, you live like the pagans and not like the Jews, so you have no right to make the pagans copy Jewish ways.
Why? I don’t know. It just does. When I read it I feel drawn in, connected to God.
Does it have the same effecct on everybody else? Probably not.
In my condo, above my dining table I have a abstract, modernist, 3 x 5 print by Jasper John’s called Edingsville.
It was the first painting I bought for my first house when I first moved down here to this god forsaken wilderness called Silicon Valley form San Francisco 27 years ago.
I bought it because I liked the colors and textures and balance of the abstact forms.
But after coming home and looking at it every day for 3 – 4 months I began to realize that it was actually an encoded, modern, description of the crucifixion; aka The Sacrificial Lamb.
And that there was a little red “blood” on the flesh colored “foot” inside the form of a black raven’s head.
The blood is obviously the “key” for decoding the message 🙂
“Pagan religions often view men as victims of the gods.”
Makes me think of one of my favorite lines in Shakespeare’s, King Lear:
“As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods,
They kill us for their sport. ”
Sometime life seems like that to me 🙂
Me too, which is why trust in His character, not in how we perceive His actions, is so important.
Skip how then do you explain Pauls letter to the Galatians? Galations chapters 2 and 3 for example which were written to Gentile congregations.
Very Curious.
I would encourage you to download the study of Galatians from my homepage (skipmoen.com/products). I am sure you will find answers to a lot of questions about Galatians.
Gal 2:11 When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, since
Gal 2:12 he was manifestly in the wrong. His custom had been to eat with the pagans, but after certain friends of James arrived he stopped doing this and kept away
Gal 2:13 from them altogether for fear of the group that insisted on circumcision. The other Jews joined him in this pretence, and even Barnabas felt himself obliged to copy their behavior.
Gal 2:14 When I saw they were not respecting the true meaning of the Good News, I said to Cephas in front of everyone, “In spite of being a Jew, you live like the pagans and not like the Jews, so you have no right to make the pagans copy Jewish ways.
hmmm By Gal 2:14 Paul seems to feel that Peter and his “team” are not living up to their obligation as leaders. Apparently, they have abandoned their pagan followers because they were not circumcised.
My guess is that Paul does not consider not being circumcised to be a “showstopper” for those pagans who want to become followers of the way on the one hand.
And on the other, by abandoning their pagan followers, Paul seems to think that Peter and the other leaders of the movement are committing an even more grievous sin (not serving others).
In Galatians the issue is circumcision. No other aspect of “legalism” was made specific. There are 613 Torah obligations. Take time to review them, most had to do with sacrifices. Circumcision was the sign of the covenant for the Jew. Yeshua is the sign of the covenant for the Gentile to bring them into the covenant of Abraham and the final “sin” offering for all, Jew and Gentile alike. But if you read Galatians 5 & 6, grace frees us from sin but also frees us to serve. And there are a lot of obligations in that freedom to “serve” Yeshua. As Paul states, “For the whole Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself”,, but if you go on snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, watch out, or you will be destroyed by each other!” The Jews have had in the past and continue to have multiple factions, but they are all still Jews. And when the Temple was, there was only one. In all their disagreements, none decided to build another Temple.
There are obligations in serving Yeshua, we just do not all agree on what they are.
We are “grafted in” to make the Jew jealous yet there is little left to be recognized of the original first century worship. We look to “serve” another G_d.
Michael, personally I do not find responses that include “…have you read your Bible…” to be helpful. Everyone believes that their personal viewpoint is the correct reading of scripture and all that is necessary is to “read your Bible.” In my personal opinion it comes across as condescending which is the exact opposite of the attitude that those of us who are working to recover the jewishness of our faith should be perceived as holding. The Hellenized church will not be able to hear our message if it is presented in such a manner.
I think, but am not positive, that what Skip and Carl are advocating is a position that is broadly known as “one law.” If you would be interested in reading some resources that hold Torah in very very high esteem but who would not fall into the one law category here are some places to look:
This will cost you $3. It is from http://www.ffoz.org which is a Messianic group that formerly was a (chief?) advocate of the one law position but which has now changed that position. They still hold Torah in the highest esteem. They now see a difference between a divine obligation and a divine invitation to Torah as being the position of gentiles.
http://www.ffoz.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=343
FFOZ has a free resource that lays out their position as well but I don’t have the URL saved. You’ll have to click around to find it.
These two books by Mark Nanos, PhD, are brilliant. Again, they hold Torah in very high esteem and do not diminish it’s value to all believers, Jewish and gentile, but they present compelling arguments as to the differing position as to the obligations of the two groups to Torah. Mark’s presentations are throughly Hebraic. The first is on Romans, the second is on Galatians. I have read the one on Romans but not the one on Galatians. (You may have to paste the URL in to Amazon.)
http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Romans-Mark-D-Nanos/dp/080062937X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268588057&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Irony-Galatians-Letter-First-Century-Context/dp/0800632141/ref=pd_sim_b_1
I would appeal to my brothers and sisters who have discovered the joy of following lifestyle of Jesus to be on constant guard for the manner in which they approach those with whom God is working but who have not, and may never, come to exactly the same conclusions as they. The Hellenized church already has 1,700 years of being told that “pride” and “superiority” are the motivators of those who wish to live as Jesus did. Let’s not give them any ammunition to confirm that erroneous position.
Thank you Daniel for this timely caution. Of course, the gentle will lead the way. Yeshua invited. He did not compel. It is my hope that we will become shining lights of redeemed life and that will attract others without the necessity of words. Most words are really for intramural debate anyway.
Now, as for “one law.” I have read some about Boaz Michael’s position, especially in the article in Messiah Journal Issue 101, Summer 2009. There is, as you know, quite a debate about this with substantial scholars on both sides. I am undecided so far, but I tend to wish to err on the side of the “fence-builders.” Better to try my best to live by the Torah than to claim some or all of it doesn’t apply to Gentiles grafted in. I know I will never be Jewish – nor do I wish to be. But I know that I want to serve Him the best way I am able, and for that reason alone, I will strive to embrace the way of Torah.
Skip, it is interesting to hear that you are undecided on the one law issue. My personal interpretation of your thoughts is that you had decided in favor of that position. I was wrong in that reading and I thank you for correcting me. I will endeavor to keep my misjudgment in mind as I read you and others in the future.
I do know that there is sound scholarship that differs on the issue. It is for that reason that I think it is best to hold one’s beliefs on the subject lightly and graciously. I look forward to the day when Messiah returns to earth and we can all sit at His feet and learn. My belief is that all of us, without exception, will find that we have to give up one or more dearly held positions to line up with His truth.
As for intramural debate. I like it. Let’s sharpen one another.
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for the information, I’ll check out thos links when I get a chance.
My initial response to Carl was argumentative in tone, and maybe he responded in kind.
I think Carl’s positions are similar, but we tend to focus on different metaphors to make our points.
Appreciate your support!
Very well said Skip and Daniel:
“Thank you Daniel for this timely caution. Of course, the gentle will lead the way. Yeshua invited. He did not compel. It is my hope that we will become shining lights of redeemed life and that will attract others without the necessity of words. Most words are really for intramural debate anyway.”(Skip)
“I do know that there is sound scholarship that differs on the issue. It is for that reason that I think it is best to hold one’s beliefs on the subject lightly and graciously. I look forward to the day when Messiah returns to earth and we can all sit at His feet and learn. My belief is that all of us, without exception, will find that we have to give up one or more dearly held positions to line up with His truth.”(Daniel)
We must continue to keep this Hebraic attitude in all of our discussions and debate. No one is trying to “kill” the Torah or Bible. We all serve One God and are trying our best to accomplish this.
Back to what Barry Jenkins posted:
“If Christianity stands in opposition to Judaism, then would it not be accurate to say that Christianity stands in opposition to Yeshua? Is it accurate to call ourselves “Christians” knowing what that term means today?”
I cringe sometimes to call myself “Christian” these days when I read or hear of those who “claim” to be “Christian” yet clearly live lives that are not morally consistent with the Torah, New Testament or Yeshua. And I am not a Jew nor am I trying to be. I am trying to be obedient to G_d and His Word.
Just Friday I was in a discussion with a surgeon about Hebraic thought and how the early church was compiled of Jews and Gentiles in Synagogues who believed Yeshua was the Messiah. And how there were many differing opinions and groups of Jews yet there was only one Temple. He was very hungry to hear more since he is “disenchanted” with “the Church” in it’s current path.
I am currently searching for a compact, low cost, beginning resource on early Hebrew roots to share with him.
Which brings me back to Barry’s question. What do I call myself, Apostle of Yeshua?
Why not call yourself by the same term Sha’ul used: A follower of the Way.
As for an compact, low cost introduction to Hebrew roots, you have it in your hands. This web site has a FREE 30 day introduction to the Hebrew worldview. Just go to the home page to sign up.
I also highly recommend The Essentials, a CD set from my friend, Rabbi Bob Gorelik, at http://www.eshavbooks.org
Skip,
Pardon me if you have (and I imagine you have) already addressed this, but after beginning to read the Torah, I almost threw up my hands in desperation. How in the world can we possibly keep 613 laws?
Since many of them, as you mentioned eariler in this thread, concern sacrifices, how do we handle those since sacrifices are not done anymore? What about the laws concening clothing and other such things that are totally different today?
I guess what I am asking for is a starting point to begin acting on the things you and your readers have been writing. I thoroughly enjoy reading the material and I am open-minded (and an old dog LOL) so I don’t mind being challenged to change my life-long way of thinking. I also am an ex-Catholic, which brings in more problems! 🙂
What a tremendous advantage to have an open mind about this. Congratulations. I would suggest that you Google “613 mitzvot” or “613 torah commandments” and look at the whole list. You will see almost immediately that a great number of them are already in your arsenal of obedience. Then start working on those that apply to you (not all do, of course) that you have not embraced. They may be diet or offerings that still apply or something like that. No one jumps into the ocean until they learn to swim. So, proceed slowly. There are a lot of us on this path.
You might also start reading some of the Talmud or the rabbis who help us understand the application of these commandments. Remember, from the Hebrew perspective, what matters most is how I live before a holy God.
If you search the homepage for 613 or torah or commandments, you will find a lot previously written about this.