Marriage Counseling
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20
Be Reconciled – By now we have learned that God’s covenant relationship with us is reflected in the metaphor of marital faithfulness. It’s not just about sexual fidelity but sex has a very big role to play in this metaphor, so much so that idolatry is viewed in sexual terms. Just in case we thought that Paul wasn’t Jewish, he reminds us of his deep understanding of the Jewish marriage metaphor by choosing the Greek term katallasso as the verb about returning to the Lord.
Katallasso means “to reconcile,” but it doesn’t mean to come to a mental understanding of correct belief. In fact, this verb is used in 1 Corinthians 7:11 about marriage reconciliation. This Greek verb is the verb for marriage counseling. It is the goal and the means by which estranged couples reunite. And if Paul uses this verb as the actions required of broken marriages, how much more applicable is it when it comes to broken fellowship with the Great Lover.
Using katallasso has some interesting implications. First, no one can be reconciled unless a relationship previously existed and is now broken. We don’t tell strangers to be reconciled because they have never had a relationship with each other. We encourage them to begin being friends, not to become friends again. Paul’s use of this term implies that his readers had a prior relationship with God and that relationship has been broken because of their infidelity. This certainly puts a kink in the application of this verse to pagan evangelism. Is Paul suggesting that those who never knew God need to be reconciled, or is he saying that there are readers of this letter who once were part of the fellowship of followers but have fallen away?
Second, Paul’s use of katallasso parallels the Hebrew Scripture’s use of shuv. God is constantly and consistently calling Israel to return (shuv) to Him, to be reconciled to Him and restored to His purpose. But God doesn’t call the pagan nations to return. They can’t return. They were never with Him to begin with. Pagans convert. Jews return. When Paul uses this parallel Greek verb, he implies that his audience consists of those who were once at home with God. They are not pagans. They are God’s divorced and estranged people. When you think about the issues Paul addresses in his letter to Corinth, this should not be surprising. The Messianic community in Corinth was in serious trouble, not because they didn’t know the one true God, but because their behavior was completely inconsistent with living according to God’s directions. They were traitors to God’s government and adulterers to God’s covenant. No wonder they needed reconciliation.
In the end, we discover that Paul is reaching out to those who were once part of the fellowship but now don’t live like it. Their error is not believing in false gods. Their error is divorcing God. They knew the joy of His bond, but they chose to live for their own agendas. Perhaps there are a lot more who need to be reconciled than we thought. Perhaps the most important function of the “church” is divorce counseling with those who thought marriage to God only meant signing the contract.
Topical Index: katallasso, reconcile, marriage, pagan, 2 Corinthians 5:20
2 Corinthians 5: 17 Therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation – the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new! 18 And it is all from God, who through the Messiah has reconciled us to himself and has given us the work of that reconciliation, 19 which is that God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself, not counting their sins against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore we are ambassadors of the Messiah; in effect, God is making his appeal through us.
I’ve got to “hit and run” this a.m. – this “reconciliation” between sinful man (Adam) and holy Elohim is the “gospel”- the good news! Restored, reconciled, redeemed, renewed.. (but wait!- there’s more!)
Carl: “2 Corinthians 5: 17 Therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation – the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new! 18 And it is all from God, who through the Messiah has reconciled us to himself and has given us the work of that reconciliation, 19 which is that God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself, not counting their sins against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore we are ambassadors of the Messiah; in effect, God is making his appeal through us.”
Helen: To whom is Paul speaking here? Is verse 18 saying that “us” refers to Jews alone? Verse 19 says that God was reconciling “MANKIND” to Himself……not just Israel. In verse 20 is Paul saying that God is making His appeal through “us=Israel”, or through His apostles……..not because they are Jews, but because they are united with Christ, reconciled to God as part of “mankind”, and called by God to make Him known through Christ Jesus. Verse 17, when Paul says that “if ANYONE” is united with Messiah, he is a new creation. That involves a lot of newness, including how one relates to God……..both Jew and Gentile.
While I don’t want to enter into a long discussion again, just a small technical note. I don’t know which English translation you are using, but 2 Cor. 5:19 does NOT contain the word “Mankind” in the Greek text. That is an interpretation of the Greek word kosmos (world). This translation could suggest that God’s purpose was to rescue men, but the actual Greek suggests that the scope of reconciliation is MUCH bigger (we discussed this before). We are not at the center of this revolution, although from our perspective, we certainly like to think so. Might I suggest that you reconsider the English translation you are using. I see there are a few other “additions” in the rest of the passage you quote. It’s so hard today to clean up all the doctrinal assumptions that slip into the translations. Better to stick with the Greek and Hebrew.
John 3:16 So For loved God the world, so as the Son of Him, the only-begotten, He gave, that everyone believing into Him
3:17 not may perish, but have life everlasting not For sent God the Son of Him into the world that He judge the world,
3:18 but that may be saved the world via Him. The (one) believing into Him not is judged; the (one) but not believing already has been judged, for not he has
3:19 believed into the name of the only-begotten Son – of God, this And is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and loved – men more the darkness than the light; were
3:20 for evil of them the works. everyone For wickedness practicing hates the light, and not does come to the light, that not be reproved
3:21 the works of him, the (one) But doing the truth comes to the light, that may be revealed of him the works, that in God they are having been worked.
This is the English translation of the Greek. Glad you pointed out that “mankind” is an inaccurate translation, and it should be “world”. When God so loved the world that He gave His Son for redemption, His death and resurrection were not limited to one race of people, or one planet, or one iceberg, whale, dolphin, bald eagle,
or any other portion of his creation. Is that correct? It is my understanding that a human being must Believe
into Christ………mankind is different from the rest of the cosmos in that he has a spirit, and it is the spirit of Man which connects with the Spirit of God.
This is from the Complete Online Jewish Bible: (http://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/1-corinthians/5.html
komizo; orderly arrangement, i.e. Decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) — adorning, world.
I agree with you in totality brother Skip!- “The earth is the LORD’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.” (Psalm 24.1)
But the real question here is “how may we (yes, we are “sinners”) be reconciled to a G-d who has declared Himself to be holy?” Is there a “way” for humanity to be redeemed, reconciled, renewed, reclaimed, recycled-today? May we once again know an unbroken fellowship with our Creator (on this side of the grave)? Is “eternal life” a quantity or a quality? -It is (incredibly) an “exchanged life!.”
We may part ways on this- if you want (only) to “save the planet”, but the as far as I can determine (I’m willling to listen to anyone)- there are only two things that “endure forever” -and those two things are?…. The word(s) of YHWH and the human soul (whether man, woman or child, Jew or Gentile). We are made for a little bit more than the fourscore and ten years (if we eat our vegetables) on this planet.
Oh yes, there is a “quality of life” issue here- no doubt. (See John 10:10) But, there is another life waiting for the redeemed on the other side of death. Death is not the end- it is merely a doorway marked: Exit. Just like moving from one room to another.
I am not discounting either the lives we live while breathing G-d’s good air right here, right now. Every one of us will give account for the things we have done, said and thought. (Even our thoughts will be judged!) There will be a day of reckoning and (only) ONE will be the judge on that day. I have the audacity to say- “I’m ready!” My answer then, will be the same as it is today- “Jesus paid it all – all to Him I owe.”
I also am in total agreement- the blood of Jesus Christ (that cleanses from “all” sin- past,present and future) is not just my “ticket into heaven”. The Christian life is far more than “pie-in-the-sky” by and by. No, no and no!
We are engaged in warfare right here, right now, today where each of are standing. G-d has salt scattered everywhere. The preacher, the painter, the plumber, the poet- G-d’s ambassadors, His representatives are everywhere proclaiming His story.
I am (as some have said)- the only “Bible” someone may ever read! – Does this scare me?- Yes, -it does. But this, I believe, is the right kind of fear.
(Colossians 1:20) says this: “and through Him (who would that be?) -God reconciled everything to Himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.”
“Christ’s blood on the cross” is a big-dot deal. (understatement of the year award forthcoming!). We (you and I) need to make a lot of noise about this. We need to spread this “good news” everywhere! Is the Word of G-d important? (-hey, I’m the one asking the stupid questions, here..) Puh-lease,- it is only life-giving and life-sustaining. That’s all. Just what part does the word of the LORD have to play? (Do I have to ask or answer these questions?) Good grief,- how hard is this? “G-d hath said” It’s a done deal. He said it!. Finished. Finito. His word(s) endure forever! Just as fresh today and when He spoke them! It is – amazing!
When G-d speaks (remember- He has already spoken..) it is forever. My words will soon be forgotten. (What’d he say?)- But the word(s) of the LORD endures forever. – Not your excellent commentary, not my feeble feedback. His words. Words of life and beauty,- teach me faith and duty, beautiful words, wonderful words,- wonderful words of life.
Just a quick comment. While it is fashionable to speak as if the earth is doomed for the junk pile and God is going to create all over again, this idea doesn’t come from Scripture. The RE-newed earth (not the NEW earth) is a restoration to the original, just like the RE-newed covenant is a restoration to all men living according to God’s word. And for that matter, the Word of the Lord isn’t the written text. The written text merely faithfully records what God speaks. It is His spoken word that will endure forever. Why? Because His spoken word is who He is, the manifestation of His power and glory. Someday I suspect we won’t have John’s comment of God’s plan (John 3:16) but we will have the spoken word of God, just as Adam talked with God in the Garden. So, there is no escape hatch here. We are like the days of Noah. The wicked will depart. We will stay on the renewed earth. God is not going to rescue our “souls” and leave the rest to rot. That is a great Platonic myth. We are persons – embodied in this world and the next. So, more to rethink along the way.
AMEN!! Skip………lovely “quick comment”.
So the “saints” will not be “raptured”, it will be the wicked taken out of the way. HalleluJAH!!
“a restoration to the original” – back to the original original? Back to Eden before death entered the world? I am genuinely curious because of the sacrificial system and the death of animals. From what I can see, there was no death before sin entered the cosmos. If it is going to be restored back to the original original with no death, then how does that reconcile with sacrifices and ultimately with the Torah being ‘forever’.
That is something that is twisting my mind! I feel like I’m missing something.
Sonia, I made the effort once to go through scripture and fill a notebook with all the references to death and the afterlife. There was a whole notebook full! I saw that the vast preponderance of them were clearly referring to the fire that consumes and then goes out – especially if you go back to the original Hebrew and Greek. Also, I saw that there was a picture of a Garden restored with no death (“they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain”). Everlasting torment is an everlasting theme in PAGAN cultures that did not show up until the synthesis of the pagan and Christian that is the Holy Roman Empire.
Beyond that, however, the entire Hebrew economy (way society functioned) was a picture – a vast allegory – of Messiah: His office and function, as well as copies of what Moses was shown and the book of Hebrews outlines as the Temple in heaven – the original. Paul refers to this picture of Messiah as “types and shadows” which naturally is fulfilled when what is called the “antitype” shows up. Messiah fulfilled those pictures of Himself, and now we can look to Him directly, because He came. That does not make the picture (ordinances that pointed to Messiah, as well as the Temple services themselves) less beautiful, but it does make them optional or even superseded (at least the way I see it). Of course, the great moral Law of Ten Commandments is no such picture of Christ: it is a picture of the very character of God, which is no “type or shadow” but a blueprint for us to follow. That character was in no way “nailed to the cross”, but is true and relevant forever.
I have noticed that none of the early followers felt any need to re-institute those Temple practices after it fell. If you read the book of Hebrews you can clearly see that we don’t need an earthly priest if Yeshua Himself is now our presiding priest back in that original Temple in heaven.
You might want to study how every facet of the Tabernacle service and construction, for example, was a symbol (type) of Christ. When He showed up, we were supposed to be able to recognize Him! Ask yourself WHY the sacrifices existed in the first place: were they for their own sake or were they a symbol of something else?
That is my take on it, anyway. Others here have other takes. What matters is that you pursue it for yourself and get your own take. Pray for discernment and be persuaded in your own mind. And, by the way, welcome to this rowdy and (hopefully) friendly forum! There are as many different takes as there are good folks here, so don’t discount your own take, as it is a valid as any of the rest of us’ are!
Thank you for the insight Laurita! It is greatly appreciated!
“the fire that consumes and then goes out – especially if you go back to the original Hebrew and Greek.”
Interesting….that is something that I have been hearing lately about the fire that consumes and then dies out. So, you went through Scripture to search it out….awesome! I just want to know the truth. I was taught in Christian circles that hell was eternal flaming/burning punishment and you didn’t want to go there. I never wanted to follow “God” (YHWH) because of that though….eternal punishment was not my motivation. Although I do believe for many people it is! I just want to know the truth about it. It is something that a friend of mine and I have talked about (one of the MANY topics 🙂
“Also, I saw that there was a picture of a Garden restored with no death (“they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain”).”
I agree with you about the garden being restored with no death. There was originally no death in Eden! At the very end there will be a full restoration with no more death (Revelation 21:4) since death will be swallowed up (1 Corinthians (15:54)….in fact, death is the LAST enemy that will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26).
Death is an ENEMY! I find that interesting because so many people just think that death is a part of life. I think it is unnatural because death only entered after Adam and Eve disobeyed the instruction of YHWH. Death is going to be destroyed!
You mentioned Isaiah 11:9 and 65:25.
The preceding verses (Isaiah 11:6-8) are a picture that make my heart melt.
Isaiah 11:6-9
“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.”
Isaiah 65:25
“‘The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,’ says YHWH.” (v25)
I LONG for that time! I cannot even put it into words.
Right now, I wish I could leave the city and go to the country. I so long for an “Eden” here now.
Sonia, I love your take! Thank you for sharing it. You blessed me. I have spent a lot of time lately, privileged to be in nature, learning to cooperate with it instead of fear or fight it. Its surely a whole lot more nourishing and fun that way!
I hope you stick around and have lots more to say, too. I like all your questions.
Thanks Laurita 🙂 I have looked at TW when i can after my friend put me onto a TW article around March 2017 and in the comments one of the people mentioned Guardian Angel. I was curious as to what that was and so I found it on YouTube. I have no words….GAME CHANGER! From there found Biblical Worldview, Human Work and Community on the “Restoration Down Under” YouTube channel. Then bought other teachings and books…..I have learned SO much in the past year!
There has been so much that I have learned but if I could pick just ONE thing, it would be the fact that I now really understand the fact that we are all influenced by what we’ve been taught and that the only way to break a paradigm is to show people they are actually UNDER a paradigm. Now I can see so clearly how my upbringing has influenced me and how that influences how I view Scripture. How important it is to get back to the original language and understand Scripture as it would have been given to the original people etc.
Anyway, my point is that now that I can see that paradigm I have so may questions. I have seen so many questions answered here and it appears to me that people here are also genuinely seeking the truth by going back to the original source.
Have to admit that I thought that I may have started with too many questions, but they are actually only the tip of the iceberg. I have a lot of questions. Sometimes write them down…should do that more often. Hoping that I’ll be able to ask questions and that people may have the answers or be able to point me in the right direction.
Oh, and it is great to hear that you have spent a lot of time lately in nature. Hoping one day I’ll be able to live in a garden!
Thank you for the warm welcome 🙂
Carl, I bookmarked that site, and look forward to visiting it again!
By the way, Carl, I like your style! : )
1 Corinthians 5:5 …. hand over such a person to the Adversary for his old nature to be destroyed, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.
Hi Carl,
Thanks for the link, I like the translation of Adversary rather than Satan for some reason.
Maybe because it corresponds to my sense that the Adversary is an agent of God.
The other day I mentioned that fear is not something I associate with turning to God.
In my experience, when I turn to God (Father, Son, or Spirit) he listens and I am comforted.
But when God comes to me uninvited, it is as an Adversary (Angel or Demon?).
And Fear is the emotion I feel.
Hi Skip..Hope you and family are keeping well in the LORD . I have been here listening to what you all have been saying. Pondering and all. But I do have an unrelated question for you. In this day when we hear so much of GOD’S love and all and not so much of HIS holiness, do you think that possibly the emphasis on His love has done us in?
I had a Pastor that taught me years ago that Holiness was first following with His love.
What do you think the Hebrew mindset would answer?
Helen: To whom is Paul speaking here? Is verse 18 saying that “us” refers to Jews alone?
Salvation is: (always has been, always will be) to the Jew first.. and also (praise G-d) to the Greek (all non-Jews)
Verse 19 says that God was reconciling “MANKIND” to Himself……not just Israel.
“the world” is a very inclusive word- it’s every one who “has ever breathed in G-d’s good air, -but- as Skip has pointed out, it also includes “all” of G-d’s created order. Sin has defiled creation.
In verse 20 is Paul saying that God is making His appeal through “us=Israel”, or through His apostles……..not because they are Jews, but because they are united with Christ, reconciled to God as part of “mankind”, and called by God to make Him known through Christ Jesus.
“us” is anyone (Jew or Gentile) who is united with Messiah-
Verse 17, when Paul says that “if ANYONE” is united with Messiah, he is a new creation. That involves a lot of newness, including how one relates to God……..both Jew and Gentile.
A double “Amen” to that!
Being a marriage counselor by training and commitment, I know the challenge of reconciling estranged couples. It is to reach reconciliation, and the forgiveness that this implies. Those estranged from the Ultimate Lover find it equally difficult to accept the forgiveness that is offered to them. It is a tough world in which to live and we have made it that way. God’s love is sure but it seems so hare to acknowledge or accept that love. What fools we tend to be! Maybe that is why the Broadway Musical, “Stop the World, I want to get off,” rings such a note of identity to me.
“Being a marriage counselor by training and commitment, I know the challenge of reconciling estranged couples.”
Hi Roy,
We had a great marriage counselor and I always benefited from meeting with him.
He advised me to move out long before I was able to see that it was the best alternative.
I wish he had been in the car with us on the way home yesterday, because it was a difficult test.
But it is good to be back home in my condo now, where I can restore my sanity.
–more to rethink along the way.–
I don’t mind the “re-thinking”, I just like my thinking to be scripturally based! I really do like the idea that words can be a form of communication, (black ink on white paper, sometimes), and also I do believe G-d (who is Sovereign- right?) is able to use the “written” word to communicate Himself to us. Did or did not Y’shua say to HaSatan- “It is written?”- (three times as I recall..). First, question I would ask- “what is written?” and the following question would be- “written where?”
I also believe (maybe in error,-IDK) G-d actually says what He means and means what He says. There is no “obfuscation” with YHWH. He wants to make Himself known and from what I have “seen and known”- He speaks mainly through a book that has somehow endured countless attacks, burnings, bannings, shunnings, scoffings, etc.
As I also believe G-d our Sovereign King , this (very special book) written in Hebrew and Greek (not either/or but both!), has both in shadow and in substance revealed Himself and his plan for this planet, from creation to coronation- and beyond. Unless you’re blind in one eye and can’t see out of the other, we (hopefully) may agree,- this is no ordinary book. Written by men- yes! Inspired by G-d, yes!- This is His story and this is His show.
Now if there are any questions as to “why I believe, what I believe.. I would be delighted to show (from scripture) the source of my “believing”. And yes, -please,- “faith without works is dead”/unproductive- not bearing any fruit. James even goes so far as to say- “the devils believe and tremble!” – They believe more than you and I do- they tremble! ( I hate to believe a demon “believes” more than I!)
We (all) should agree – we are living in days like we have never seen before. I am in my sixth decade of life, and looking life in ten year increments, then “connecting the dots” (60’s,70’s,80,s etc.)- I see not an “evolution” of life, but a “devolution”. Not an incline, but a decline. Just as the book says -(isn’t it amazing how G-d is always right?), “evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse” (2 Timothy 3.13)
What “great event” is next to occur? We have had of course.. “creation”- I woudn’t be here without it. Calvary has occurred. I wouldn’t be here without this either! Don’t forget Pentecost!- No, not at all!. The ascension of the Messiah- He is risen, and now “ever lives to make intercession for us”. (Acts 1:11) “This same Jesus shall so come in like manner, as ye saw him go unto heaven.”
We discussed “the G-d of surprises” just recently. No one expected the King of kings to be born in a feeding trough. The “unexpected” ONE. We missed it the first time- I wonder what will happen when He “comes again” for His beloved? -(We are the bride of Christ). Is this (also) hard to believe?
Skip
Please clarufy the difference between the Spoken Word and the written Word.
I don’t think it’s so deep. One makes a sound. The other uses ink (in our day, at least). Of course, the implications are pretty big. God speaks everything into existence. He didn’t write it into existence. Speaking is power, but it is also dynamic and relational. The faith of Abraham was based on the spoken word, not a written text. You can see where this is going, I hope
Hi Skip (or anyone else with insight who can help), how did I end up here? Probably in the wrong place, but it is due to 1 Corinthians 7:10-16. You mentioned v’s 11 in the above.
Firstly, I seem to remember you talking about being Human and how if you’re not in the IMAGE of YHWH by DOING what He does, then you’re not human. I cannot remember all the exact details.
The reason I preface my comment with that is that I am confused with the passage in 1 Corinthians 7 as above. Why did Paul say in v’s 10 & 11 that it was of YHWH and not himself (Paul) talking and it was to the married. However, in v’s 12 he states that it is him (Paul) speaking and not YHWH. Here is where it gets interesting. It says, “But to the rest” as if he is distingushing between the people in v’s 10 & 11 (the married) and the rest of people….who, one would presume, would be UNMARRIED. However, then he goes on to speak (in vs 12) of a man who has a wife who is not a believer.
Now, I realise that perhaps in the first instance (v’s 10 & 11) he is talking about a couple who are believers in YHWH and is distinguishing them from v’s 12 one believer and one unbeliever. However, WHY did he distinguish between the two. To our minds if you have a wife/husband then you are MARRIED and why would he distinguish that the first command is from YHWH and not from himself (Paul) but when it comes to a believer with an unbeliever Paul gives the command and it is not from YHWH. It appears from the way that he has written it is almost as if he is saying that the people in v’s 12 are NOT MARRIED. Do you think this is correct? Do you have another explanation?
I was wondering if perhaps the reason he could say this is that in v’s 12, perhaps the reason that the believer is not truly “married” is because the other person is not truly human? That is the only thing I can come up with.
This may tread on some toes and let me state that I am NOT married so it does not apply to me. I am really just trying to work this out. IF this is the case, then does it mean that if you have an unbelieving spouse that you don’t have a true marriage because you are not married to a true HUMAN? If the unbelieving person leaves the believers, does that mean that you would be, in the eyes of YHWH, “single” rather than divorced?
1 Corinthians 7:10-16
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
From an unbeliever married to a believer… What God has joined no man can part is a view I was told comes all the way from the first agreed unification of male and female.
Paul tells us of a covenant life versus a non covenant bondage. Bondage in a congregation versus another agreed bondage. With or without God’s blessing is another question… And maybe a bit read into scripture view.
Skip discussed it as Guardian Angel. Man giving direction, woman sustaining balance and justification.
What is marriage? Is it a covenant, a legal document or a filling of a half vessel. After 27 years of covenant promise inside a congregation as witnesses plus legally declared bondage I have learnt that this limiting or setting of boundaries is the major proof of God being in control.
Today we play both roles, days my spouse directs as we read of in Ecc. that a good wife will bless her husband by finding him work to do to bless the household with. Then I set boundaries based on my aging body’s ability… And vice versa.
Paul most probably made distinction for my purpose 2000 years later. It is not covenant, legality or neither or both that save but the manner or faith (commitment to working together) of the one guiding gently within the constraints of the other that saves or rather brings purpose and meaning to the relationship.
God blesses this relationship just as he blesses the one based solely on a covenant lifestyle. After all it is agreement that keeps focus and directed growth or purpose, not disagreement…
I do not read more in this chapter, if this will help.
Then what is sanctified… You may ask. Made pure in intent or should I look flr some-/nothing more?
Do we not by agreeing on what is beneficial keep our intents pure?
Sonia, The text in question has been a difficult text for the church throughout the ages for many different reasons, but I have never heard your particular worrisome concern regarding the “humanness” of one of the parties.
My understanding is that Shaul is making a distinction between marriages of the state and covenantal marriages or if you prefer civil or common law versus church or religious unions. YHWH is a party in the marriage covenant between believers and thus has a say in their make up and break up. In v. 10 and 11 He is stating a fact. Let neither leave the other, but if the wife does go, she is to remain single or be reconciled (yes, I know it doesn’t say that about the husband, but that is another question you didn’t ask…please don’t!) The fact that Yah is included in the covenant is key. In verse 12 Shaul is dealing with non- covenant marriages, civil, common law unions, etc. that were not formed in formal Jewish ceremonies where both husband and wife are believers in the God of Israel, Torah and Community oversight. There is no such lock upon these marriages, other than a “vow” (or WOW!) to each other. Each is free to come and go as they please (no-fault divorces are nothing new). The Apostle still tries to keep couples together urging them to consider their children and the perhaps the potential “eternal” fate of the unbelieving spouse or as a last resort that they might yet convert to Judaism through your example of…. long suffering? But without a God or church authority to appeal to and “force” a reconciliation and happy union there isn’t much that can be done. Let them go therefore, he finally admits. There is no guilt borne by the believing spouse. You are free; you are no longer in bondage to stay where there is hell to pay. That is how I read it anyway.
Thanks Michael, I can see your point. Maybe I’m just reading too much into the fact that in verse 10 he used the word “married” but in verse 12 he said, “but to the rest”. When I read that I was thinking…..even though these people are “married” in the eyes of the world, does it mean that being married to an unbeliever mean that you’re not really married in the eyes of YHWH because the unbeliever is not in the image of God…and thus not human.
Whereas what I believe you’re saying is that in the first, it is a marriage covenant in front of YHWH because it is between believers, however, the second is a vow/promise in front of the state and therefore it is not a covenant before YHWH and therefore if the unbeliever leaves, the believer is free.
So, IF I’m understanding you correctly, if YHWH is not involved in the second type of union, does that mean that they are properly married in the eyes of YHWH? I realise they can be married in the eyes of the state, but you’re saying that the unbeliever can leave because YHWH is not part of the covenant.
Quite frankly I cannot see why a believer would want to marry an unbeliever….but I do see that you could already be married and then become a believer and your spouse may not become a believer and they may want to leave you because you did become a believer.
My question. If YHWH is not involved in the second type of union (v’s 12 onwards), does that mean that they are properly married in the eyes of YHWH?
Sonia, You asked “does that mean that they are properly married in the eyes of YHWH?” Are or are not? That is the question (not- ‘to be or not to be’)! If by ‘proper’ you mean does YHWH see their marriage as real, genuine, actual,
true. Yes, and I suspect He expects people in any type of marriage, in every culture, to honor the implicit
standards of marriage. But the difference, and it is BIG, is in a marriage covenant with YHWH as a party He is able to give them help in the time of need, to succour, secure and save them from all the troubles listed in verses 25 onward, plus 10,000 more.
YHWH can’t help those who are not part of His family. Remember even Yeshua told the Cannonite woman seeking deliverance for her daughter: “It is not right to take the children’s food and toss it to their pet dogs.”
As to your comment: “Quite frankly I cannot see why a believer would want to marry an unbeliever….” Remember love is not only blind, but often stupid as well. Many have disregarded the warnings in Proverbs 5, 6, 7 and later regretted it; but yes, your insight into the majority who were married before they were converted is accurate, I think. One final point, a correction as it were. Yesterday I stated that Shaul advised spouses not to leave “as a last resort that they might yet convert to Judaism through your example of…. long suffering?”
I should have not said convert to Judiasm per se, as the Apostle would have no longer considered that THE way to life, but rather through Messiah.
That is very interesting. Thank you very much for your insight!
So, a state marriage is considered a marriage in the eyes of YHWH.
I wonder then how defacto marriage would be in the eyes of YHWH. I my country after living with someone for over 12 months it is legally considered the same as being married. The two people have not gone and said any vows to the state, but in a court of law everything else is the same. They are legally considered defacto with exactly the same rights as married.
If someone was in this situation and then became a believer (or if it was two unbelievers), would they already be considered married in the eyes of YHWH?
This was not one of my original thoughts….something that only just occurred to me.
Sonia, consider that the laws about fornication are premised upon the understanding that the very act of sex makes “one” of two, which is marriage in the eyes of God. Read Leviticus which goes to great pains to make of that act marriage in the sight of men, after the fact. I think He mainly takes pity on the fact that women apparently are hardwired to consider themselves married if they have had sex: probably because every act of sex has the potential to make them pregnant, in which they then are highly dependent upon a marriage to support them.