Flying Colors
But He said this to test him, for He knew what He was about to do. John 6:6
Test – Let’s see. I’m not to test God. That’s an insult to His sovereignty. But God can test me. He did so with Abraham. Here Yeshua tests Philip. The Greek is peirazo, a verb that means to try, to test, to prove whether something is good or bad. It’s very similar to assaying something for quality (peirao). If I want to see how pure the metal is, I test it. If I want to know how committed the trust is, I test it.
But wait a minute? If God already knows everything that’s going to happen and every decision we are going to make, what is the meaning of such a test? If Yeshua already knows how Philip will respond, why call this a test? If the outcome is determined in advance, this cannot be a test. It is simply a confirmation of a predetermined fact. So we should translate this verse, “But He said this to confirm what He already knew.” But that makes the whole idea of assessing quality a sham, doesn’t it? Ah, it’s a problem.
God tests us. We know this is true. Our circumstances are engineered by His sovereign hand so that we have the opportunity to demonstrate our faithfulness. But if we believe that God knows in advance how we will act, then none of these engineered circumstances can really be test, can they? Maybe they are nothing more than beneficial psychological endorsement for us. After all, God doesn’t learn anything new from our apparent (but really fictitious) choices. This approach is very useful. All the pressure is off. I can just do whatever I want to do knowing that God knew it all in advance anyway and so it really doesn’t matter how I decide. What a relief!
This is called a reductio ad absurdum argument. We begin with a major premise and then draw conclusions from that premise until we realize that what we are saying is ridiculous. In this way, we discover that the premise of the argument can’t be true. But notice how many people continue to claim that the major premise (God knows my choice in advance) is true, in spite of the ridiculous conclusion that I will always pass the test with flying colors because the results are known ahead of time. Notice that this argument shifts all the purpose of the test to its psychological impact on us. Nothing occurs for God.
Is Yeshua really testing Philip? Everything about this text says, “Yes.” Yeshua knew what He was going to do, but He needed to know what Philip would do. This is real new information. This is exactly what we expect when we attempt to determine a man’s trust. If this is so obvious to our common understanding of relationships, then why do we struggle so much when we apply the same logic to God? There is something else happening that doesn’t come from the text. It’s a rather long story, but for now what we need to know is this: God is very interested in how we respond. His tests are real too. And what you and I do really does make a difference.
Topical Index: test, peirazo, John 6:6
As obvious as it would seem that the argument regarding God’s foreknowledge of every choice I make is bizarre, it’s one that is really hard to get people to think about. I had this debate with someone the other day and tried to explain that if God is never wrong, and if He already knows everything I’ll do, then I don’t have choice – how does that make sense in light of everything? The other person just didn’t seem to understand the part about how if God knows something then it MUST happen (or else He’s wrong… and therefore not God).
Realizing that God is still in control, no matter what my response, is comforting… and the fact that He loves me enough to give me a choice is amazing. How incredible (and frightening) to think that the things I do really do matter! Every choice I make is another branch in an ever-expanding tree (at least that’s how I imagine it).
You got it! Now, if you want the full argument, with all the details, I will be releasing my book, God Time and the Limits of Omniscience, in a few days (I hope).
Is this based on your doctoral dissertation? You mentioned on another thread a while ago that you had an electronic copy of that dissertation (the full title of which escapes me but the book title reminded me of it). Any chance you could send me a copy? Unless, of course, the book basically is that, in which case I’ll wait for the book :-).
Yes, the book should be ready very soon.
Oooh! Awesome! I definitely want to read it! I still need to get the one about women and Yeshua. Are you still going to write the book about the Perfect Enemy? 🙂
“Are you still going to write the book about the Perfect Enemy?”
Hi Amanda,
Speaking of the book about the Perfect Enemy, I was sort of expecting the new one about women and Yeshua to be about the Perfect Enemy.
About the time I started to read the one about women and Yeshua, which is very interesting, I started working, encountered yet another ezer, and didn’t get to finish it.
I found it to have a very different form than the first two books, which also have somewhat different forms.
The first one was for me, formally speaking, a bit like Robinson Crusoe, very straightforward. (Leading Like Jesus)
The second one, formally speaking, was still fairly straighforward, but it did call attention to its form, sort of like Gulliver’s Travels. (Hebrew vrs Greek Worldview)
The third one, which I expected to be about the ezer, was a third kind, formally speaking; more like Tristram Shandy in the 18th century or Norman Mailor’s Why Are We in Vietnam
in the 20th. (Jesus Revealed in Relation to Women)
For example, here is a snippet of the style from the sub-chapter called Mission (2) p. 106:
“In the middle of this story is an unexpected declaration.”
Sort of like a post-modern novel, formally speaking, the text tends to “disrupt” your expectations.
Sort of like our experience of life itself; we want to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, but something keeps disrupting our expectations.
And for me, it seems to have something to do with my “conversations with women.”
Which is part of the subtitle of the book, Jesus Said to Her.
A very interesting book!
Yes, in fact, it is virtually done, but there were some issues with editing. It will be out before the end of the year.
Ah,the Sovereignty of G-d, and the free will of man. One of my favorite “topics.” I am so ready to dive into this pool..
First things first. 1)- Yes, G-d knows. Absolutely- the end from the beginning. YHWH is not a man- remember? (I do recall reading that somewhere- now where was it I learned this?..) Me, man- Him- LORD. Get it? Got it? Good..) Me, small. Him-big. Get it? Got it? Good.. G-d is large and He is in charge. (Did you notice the period at the end of the preceding sentence?- please do. G-d is our Sovereign King or if you prefer– Jesus is LORD, (LORD is written purposefully in all caps..- why?) Because my dear friend- “He is”. I could go on and on, but I will not. Either He is, (as He said) or He is not (He is a liar).
Ooh.. this would involve a (shudder…) choice. Yes, it would, wouldn’t it. It involves cogntive, purposeful, intentional choice. G-d does not force Himself on anyone. (Would this be love?- no.) The “choosing” is left entirely up to us. “We (you and I) are totally free in every choice we make.” (stay with me..- no drifting..). Go ahead, choose. Anything/everything have at it. Choose this, choose that.. you sir or m’am are totally free to choose. G’wan. (and BTW- to “not choose” is a choice!- “sorry”..- you’re not exempt from choosing). Every day we make thousands of “choices.” Please, stop and think, (selah) of a few and realize- “I” am making an intentional, conscious, “free-will” choice. Could be “small”, could be “big”, but it’s still a choice.
I hope by now, you are (as Amanda discovered) rejoicing in your freedom. “to choose”. This is called:- “the free will of man”. “We are free to choose”. Get it? Got it?- Good.
Choose away- all day- every day- choices. Constant choices.
Now, for the kicker. “We are free in our choices, but we are NOT free from the consequences (of our own choosing). Every “choice” is followed by a…..”?” (Consequence). I am today, sitting here banging away on the keyboard, the sum total of every choice I have ever made. We will (will) reap what we sow. This is called the law of the harvest. Sow corn- reap corn, etc. We cannot sow our wild oats- and then pray for crop failure. Every choice is followed by a consequence. (Believe me when I say- I speak to you from my scars..)
Well what about the Sovereignty of G-d? Doesn’t He know? Doesn’t He care? Isn’t He the compassionate ONE? YESSSSSSS! “He is.” Then why does He let us “knowingly” make wrong choices? -I’m glad you asked!- Because of love. I must voluntarily submit myself to Him and follow His instructions for living, then I will have good success and then I will have life more abundantly. He will then (because of my choosing Him, purposefully, intentionally, “listening” to His words, receiving them, welcoming them into my life) lead me through the valley and through the waters and through the fire and through the flood. This “voluntary submission” is one facet of love. Love is never forced- it is free.
Now what of this “testing?” We WILL be tested. (All of us). (“In this world you will have tribulation”) –according to the words of ONE who never lies. (maybe we could install a loudspeaker over the door of our house as we leave:- “PREPARE TO BE TRIBULATED!” Listen (again) to His words (the “rest” of the story..) BUT! (love those Bible buts..) “be of good cheer!” (yes, I’m talkin’ to you!)- “I HAVE overcome the world.”. Yeshua- overcomer. Yeshua- the Victorious ONE. It is Him, It is Him- He is the ONE.
Listen to this (from His word) and be blessed: “the fining pot for silver and the furnace for gold”. Do you understand this? Can you discern these words? (-Is it hot in here?) Going through the “fire” right now? “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, (Luke 4.12-13). “… when He Has Tried me, I shall come forth as gold!” (Job 23:10) (feeling the heat yet?)- ha!- “For our G-d is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12.29)
When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of woe shall not thee overflow;
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
When through fiery trials thy pathways shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.
Get it? Got it? Good. When He said He would supply all of our “needs”, did you count “tribulation” as one of your “needs?” (What??) – A muscle that is not worked, will atrophy. Our “faith” must be exercised in order to grow. Sometimes- “the strength is in the struggle.” -BUT, (love those big Bible buts!- (please “remember”- three hundred sixty six times, “He has said”- “Fear not.”
“But, in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.” (Romans 8.37)
Is the world and everything that occurs governed by chance and contingency or by the sovereign hand of a sovereign Creator? Are these the only choices?
No, they aren’t the only choices. Equating sovereignty with governance is one of the issues that must be carefully articulated. Look for the book, very soon I hope.
Skip … just heating up the pot a bit more …. a little at a time. Sovereignty and governance … very interesting conventions from a Biblical perspective when we see that “governance” comes back to G_D as depicted in Revelations! …. I know you must deal with this issue in your upcoming book … it was not G_D Who handed over governance of olam hazeh to hasatan … it was man-kind! G_D just happens to be serious about free choice and of course living with the consequences!
“just heating up the pot a bit more …. a little at a time. Sovereignty and governance”
Hey Drew,
Funny, when I picked up my kids to take them to school this morning, my son said:
“Dad, what’s the meaning of Sovereign,” and I said off the top of my head, absolute rulers, like Kings, who were thought to be related to God.”
Speaking of “pot,” the fertilizer stock Potash (POT) is on fire right now and it is one of my favorites.
Regarding the olam hazeh, is olam hazeh the same thing as the Olam Ha-Ba, The Afterlife?
Which brings me to a question about Providence as a Jewish concept.
From a non-philosophical perspective, I thinking that God doesn’t know the future, because he has not created it yet.
Maybe there is no future until it happens, just the “here and now” and “history.”
I’m guessing that God could entertain an infinite number of potential futures, but there is no future until it is here, is there?
Maybe the future is just a concept, and then there would not be any future in the afterlife either.
Regarding Ha Satan, I don’t think he governs anything; I think God has power and authority over both Ha Satan and Yeshua.
When I experience God I don’t see either one of them, but sometimes it could be either, for all I know.
To put myself in Paul’s shoes, I guessing Paul must have been terrified when Jesus came to him in a vision.
At that point, Paul was the evil one; killing followers of the Way who were good people, devoted to Jesus.
I’m guessing Jesus was sent by God to get Paul “on track.”
In this case, maybe Yeshua was perfect for the job, but in most cases like Paul’s, Ha Satan could probably get the job done too.
It seems to me they are both servants/agents of God and that neither are “free agents.”
RIght, “as by one man, sin entered”
I think that there is a big difference between God knowing in advance what we will choose and God determining what we will choose. In one case, we still have freedom, in the second case we do not. Also, God being transcendent to time, doesn’t have to wait and see, or remember when, for that matter. Everything is one big “now”. He knows the end from the beginning.
While you express the Augustinian solution to the problem of divine foreknowledge and human freedom, that solution (although popular) is unsustainable given the intractable dilemmas it creates for any robust understanding of infallibility. In other words, it doesn’t work. If God know infallibly what I will do, then it is not logically impossible for me to do otherwise, even if I believe that I act freely. And the God outside of time solution (Aquinas, Boethius and others) also doesn’t work. At least it doesn’t work for the God of the Bible. As Heschel says, the God of the philosophers might be extemporal but not the God of Israel. Now, this is a long and difficult issue which I spent nearly 20 years working on. I will soon release my book, God Time and the Limits of Omniscience, where you can follow all the arguments at your leisure. But for now, sloppy theological language will only get you into deeper philosophical problems.
I remember arguing with you for several days during a Master’s seminar on this subject. I just did not want to accept the truth concerning divine foreknowledge. However, the logic of the argument convinced me of its truth. If man had free will, and for it to remain free, the exact future choice had to be open to change. To deny the ability to change in an effort to grant God complete divine foreknowledge was too high a price. Put my order in for your book!
Thanks Barry. You will be one of the first to know about it.
and God knows if the choice will change which is why you see some tribes wiped out in the Old Testament.
I would really like to read your book when it is available. 20 years is a long time to spend! I realize that this is not an issue that is solved by a few glib sentences. I have already read a book by Gregory Boyd on the view of Open Theism. His main view if I am reading him correctly is that the reason God doesn’t know the future exhaustively is not because God is not omniscient, but rather that because the future hasn’t happened yet, future acts are not yet real “things” to be known by God or us. Do you talk about Open Theism in your book?
Maybe an example would help me express my question, which I am sure is an age old one. Jesus obviously knew in advance that Peter would choose to deny Him three times, before the cock crowed twice. Yet it would seem that at the time Peter made the denials, he was making a responsible choice to do so, otherwise he would not be at fault. So my question is, if not by Divine foreknowledge, then how do we say that Jesus knew the specific choices Peter would make, unless He made Peter make them, in which case they would not be choices? Especially given the specificity of Jesus’s prediction?
Another example: Since God is the creator of time (I know the physicists and astronomers also currently believe that time is finite and had a beginning) why would Hhe be bound by it? I am not saying he does not step into time and act within it, but would He be limited by in in the sense that He would have to wait for it to run it’s course, when He existed before time began?
(If you want me to wait for your book to find answers to these questions, I do plan on reading it) But if you can give me any previews concerning the above questions, I am all ears!
Thanks, Skip
Also, please let me know when your book is available, I would like to order it.
Thank you!
Believe me, I’m trying to get it done.
Skip, you said, “Maybe they are nothing more than beneficial psychological endorsements for us.”
I like this suggestion…but, am I being totally egocentric here?? Am I making it all about me (us)??
Obviously God knows our character before we make our choices, but, perhaps He wants to strengthen our faith by letting us experience that feeling of “getting it right” sometimes.
Most parents have used that technique with their children, (giving an allowance, letting them use the car etc.) And, when tests are failed, they can be wonderful teaching opportunities.
Additionally, even when we feel fairly confident that our kids will “pass the test,” it’s still an awesome experience to actually WITNESS it!! Is it possible that God enjoys this as well?
On an aside note…we just got back from a bike trip riding along the Normandy Coast of France visiting villages, cathedrals and World War II museums and landing sites. It was very beautiful, educational and
emotional and I was reminded of how much we have to be thankful for…living in a free country with the freedom to worship and share our faith openly. I was reminded (and ashamed) at how often I take that for granted.
Also…Happy New Year, (Rosh Hashanah) to all. L’shanah tovah!!
T
Oops…Don’t know how that T slipped in there?? Oh well.
I would like to Amen and add to what you have shared Carl. God’s mind is higher then our attempts to logically figure out or assess what He is doing. A test is for us to see what flesh is left that needs to be crucified. It surfaces what is not of Him so we can see where our dependence level is in dependence on Him. I find Scripture is full of His knowing all from beginning to end. He created it and knew before the foundation of the earth that He would need to send a Savior. (Eph 1:4 and 9-10) tell us He knew we would choose sin before we did it. There is a difference between dictating choice and knowing choice. He knows all things past present and future because He created time for us here, and is not limited to it like we are. As Psalm 139:4 says, He knows what I will say before I say it just like He knew Peter would deny Him 3 times, before Peter even knew it. He knew Jacob would cherish His inheritance and Esau wouldn’t care so He was able to declare before they were born that the younger would have it. He tells Jeremiah in Jer. 1:4-5 that He knew him in the womb which is before any choices are made, and He appointed him as a prophet to the nations, which He could not delcare if He had not known that Jeremiah would be a man who would obey the call. Every Prophecy He ever gave came true in detail and that would have been impossible if He had not known the minds of men ahead of time and what they would do. He knew Pharoah would harden his heart by choice, and told Moses that he would, so He also hardened it for His purpose of showing the Egyptians that all their gods were false, and brought His people out of slavery. The choice was free but He knew how He would use it as a tool for His glory before Moses got there, and for us as His own, He says He causes all things to work together for our good and His glory which He can do because He has them already worked out in His plans for the choices He knows we will make. Some other Scriptures that prove His mind is higher then ours is the rest of Psalm 139 and Isa. 55:8-11; and His some of His own declarations of all knowing are in Isa. 43:10-13; 44:7-8; 46:9-10; 48:5-14; and Rev.13:8 is one of the ones that declares He was slain before the foundation of the world. Why ahead of time? Because choice is necessary for an expression of real love, but He also knew we could not love back like Him without Him within us, and we would choose independence. I also feel that the reminder is necessary to say that God does not let our flesh get glory. That includes our good lodgic, for Him. I love to learn what He really meant by His Word whether it be through the Hebrew or culture, by personal experience of Him or wisdom He has taught another, but no interpretation is accurate unless the Holy Spirit has revealed it. (2 Peter 1:20-21 and 1 Cor. chapter 2 tells us). If it is our good lodgic assessing His Words He will let that dead end too in the face of a higher mind then ours. Satan loves to lead our lodgic into confusion and error, off of God’s own Truth.
Blessings in Him,
Kay
Kay
Again, careful use of terms is critical in this discussion. The introduction of infallibility into the equation of omniscience changes the definition of our usual understanding of knowing. A God who knows but is not infallible can be understood in the same way that I know I will drive to Orlando tomorrow. I know it now because I intend to make it be true tomorrow. But if God knows it infallibly (no matter how He acquires that information), then it is not possible for me to do otherwise (no matter what I believe about the circumstances). Therefore, I am not free under any ordinary definition of freedom. This is a LOGICAL problem, not a theological issue. The problem is resident IN THE DEFINITIONS and that’s where we have to start if we are going to solve it.
A suggestion that God’s knowledge is just greater than ours is useful if I am confronting human arrogance, but it is useless in this arena since the information that I have to deal with is all REVEALED by Him about Him. If that doesn’t make sense to me, then the problem must be in the revelation, not in my logical analysis. In other words, I have to work with what God says about Himself, not with what He doesn’t say. And I have to carefully distinguish what God actually says from what theologians and philosophers have added to the problem.
Please, before you respond with the usual extemporal, knowing our “free” choices, Augustinian solution, be assured that many, many scholars have wrestled with this argument and, in my considered opinion (and others), have never successfully escaped from this trap. Why? Because the God of the Bible is not the God of the philosophers. His knowing is not the kind of knowing that is described by the usual ideas of omniscience and infallibility. That does not mean that God is not infallible or omniscient. He is, but not in the sloppy way we usually think of it. There is NO solution to this problem if we follow the road of Parmenides, Boethius, Augustine, Aquinas and most of the Reformers. Their basic concepts of God and of time are rooted in Greek metaphysics and from that foundation free will is simply a phantom choice, not a real one. There is a lot more to come on this as soon as I can get the cover on the book done.
God doesn’t need to acquire knowledge, He created the universe and all that is in it and is aware of everything that is in it, all the time. Now I notice you have ignored every Scriptural Truth I have pointed out that proves He IS perfect knowledge, and has proper discernment of what He means by what He has had recorded, comes from His Spirit. You might write a letter to a friend and 5 people read it and think you mean 5 different things but your mind knows exactly what you meant to say. Well His Word apart from you consulting the Author’s mind by His Spirit can leave you with a bunch of scholars trying to read a mind to High for them to reach. Asking the Author in prayer is faith in His own ability to disclose to you His meaning of the text. He may not give you the whole picture at one time, because He reveals His light through all parts of His Body, but what you are desiring to understand He can clairify. He is Truth and knows how to explain. He uses it through others in His Body also. The road to the Truth is found talking to the Author first and if He uses other things, He will show you how to find His truth. I can promise you, you won’t ever figure Him out without His Spirit in charge of the search, but you sound like you think you have got the right path to describing Him, and what He thinks, and many definitions all correct. Have you asked Him personally to guide you to His Truth by His Spirit or is your faith in your human ability to evaluate all the books and write your own conclusions? So far in the last two messages posted I am witnessing your evaluation of Him from what knowledge you have investigated is making Him appear much less of a God then He is. Jesus told the Pharisees that they studied well about Him, but wouldn’t come to Him. ( John 5). I’m sorry but I am not interested in another book off someone’s evaluation of God, I desire to understand the mind of Christ and that comes from His guidance about His own Scriptures that He is quite capable of being a good teacher by His Spirit through all parts of His Bride. Have you asked Him to evaluate what you have written and clarify what He wants you to write? Is He in charge of it or is this your teaching? You don’t have to answer to me. It is between you and God, but He said the flesh prophets nothing, but the Spirit gives life. We are capable of doing a lot of good thinking and doing but only His Spirit can apply it as living fruit of His in anyone’s life. Our deeds are as dead as the pharisee’s parades of their knowledge, if we leave out His Spirit. Acknowledge Him in all your ways and He will make straight your path. Ok, I’m done with this conversation. I am praying for you. Remember what Paul said was his chief desire in Phil. 3.
“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.” Deut. 29:29
I began my journey With the Baptists in the early 50s, then crusied through several flavors charismatics in the 70s & late 80s. Then on to the non Torah keeping Messiantics where we learned a little Hebrew and shifted to a Hebraic world view. Then in 1995 when we were sent by YHVH to a ministry for the rest of the story. A marvelous 7 year steeping in reformed theology and church history finally opened our eyes to the reason for all the hatefulness between denominations.
We finally concluded once and for all that there really is no place for the Parthenon on the Temple mount!
Praise YHVH we’re finally back keeping Shabbat in our home with a small group of hungry humbled people, introducing the Hebraic mind to them and studying and finally keep Torah. I have a huge secret confession to make. I have very much missed the exegetical and expositional style of teaching and preaching. It’s a real treat to find it coupled with the Hebrew world view. Thank You Skip! I’ll Take one of those books please.
What a great line – There is no place for the Parthenon on the Temple mount. But Christian theologians keep trying to make something out of Mars Hill, don’t they?
sillyness
I would like to re-introduce an “old-fashioned” word into today’s mix. That word is “Providence”. Pro video (to see and to provide beforetime) Not used much anymore especially around the place where I live and work. This word seems to have fallen out of favor anymore especially since we now have our computers and technology and such to explain everything and give us the answers we crave. But I’m here to say, even with a triple Phd to your credit- no one knows what goes on in one square inch of dirt,-except ONE. (And that’s just one square inch of dirt!- Now multiply that times the size of this green planet and we get a pretty good idea about how “dumb” we really are. (G-d has a way of putting us in our place, doesn’t He?)
G-d is not a absentee landlord. He didn’t start this big ball spinning and then walked away- “good luck, y’all!” – mazel tov! No, He didn’t. He is intricately and intimately involved in both the macro and the micro moments of our lives. Why would He take the time to number the hairs on our heads? Why would He be concerned about the life of a sparrow? No, my good friends- Our Father is very present, at all times and abounding in assiduous grace. He is near. There is a Friend that sticks closer than a brother. -(most assuredly) If you would like scriptural backup for this, it will be produced. If you would like a word of personal testimony- this could happen also. G-d IS (very much) Sovereign. However- I am NOT a five point “Calvinist”. I do not believe in fate, or chance or random happenings, or luck. There is a Master plan and there is the Master’s plans. ( I know the plans I have for you- says the LORD). I cringe when people say- “good luck” to me. I know they mean well and that is good, but dear ones, ’tis grace hath brought me safe thus far-and grace will lead me home.” (praise His name- I have a history with G-d!)
He daily loads me with benefits. He delivers from evil. My cup (also) is overflowing. Folks, G-d has been good to me! I cannot and will not deny His blessings! He is the source of every good thing- (just as it is written!)-
I really don’t see the problem here. Somebody help me. What is the issue? What’s so hard about it? It’s simple- He’s G-d (and I’m not) Any questions? Ask Him- He’s the ONE with the answers! He wrote the Book. He is the Author (and the Finisher) of our faith.
Now what will happen if we actually were to acknowledge the Sovereignty of G-d? I can tell you (from experience) what will happen, but I’d rather not. It would be like opening somebody else’s Christmas presents. lol! Don’t just read Purpose Driven Life, but rather “live it!” Live life purposefully and intentionally. I’m trying hard to convey the freedom of just knowing G-d as “Father!” As the song says- “blessings all mine- with ten thousand beside!” Give it a shot! Acknowledge the Lordship of (the) Christ. BTW- whether you do or don’t won’t matter!- He still is (and ever will be) LORD! Just as the Book says- “King of kings and LORD of lords!-
Bow the knee? It’s my choice. Nobody’s forcing me to do it. But what “blessing” when I do? The word “barak” in Hebrew is “blessing.” It is also “bow the knee” or kneel. Where is the place of blessing? – “bow the knee!”.
I am so looking forward to the book. Yet I must say I have no problem with God existing outside of time and all of time existing within Him, even in the sense of testing. For me (at least right now, as I wait for the book) God sees (and indeed exists in) my response to His testing. But that response would not be there if he hadn’t tested me. I am free to respond in any way I choose, but that response is only there because he tests me.
I see us as trapped within the confines of our limited ability to understand this from a perspective (God’s) that we CANNOT take or even imagine. God may experience cause and effect in a completely different sense than we do. My choice is there, yes, but it is completely undetermined by God. I make it, He experiences me making it.
I think that we are tied up by our language. Since we have absolutely no way of relating to anything that has no beginning or end, all of our language involves temporal expressions, even when we try to describe non-temporal things. For example, to say that God “already” knew what I would do has no meaning outside of time because “already” is a temporal expression. From a God perspective words like “already” have no meaning. I have no human language to cope with extra-temporal things. So it is not a matter of “already”. Neither is it a matter of knowing “ahead of time,” or “before.” These are still temporal expressions.
There is still something missing that lies beyond anything I’ve read here so far, and I really don’t believe we are humanly capable of wrapping our minds around it. Nothing I’ve read in the arguments of William Craig or Richard Rice or any others so far has convinced me.
But in all sincerity I eagerly await the book because I love this website and these word studies and all the interaction that goes on here. God greatly blesses this place.
Les, I have been helped by the writings of Brennan Manning who said- G-d exists in the eternal “now”. He is the ever present G-d who lives in the eternal “now”. There is no past, present, or future with Him because “He is”. I’ll confess right beside you my brother- it does take a chunk out of our brains when we try to comprehend the incomprehensible, but actually- that’s quite alright with me. No problemo. I’ll just let Him be who He is. G-d. (and a mighty big G-d, too!)
I asked my daughter, “how big is G-d?,” (and I actually do have an answer to this!) He is “bigger.” My little ol’ six volt brain cannot understand 500,000 volts. It would, (I’m sure), pop my circuit board. I have no problem understanding verses such as this: “eye has not see, ear has not heard, neither has entered into the heart of man, the things which G-d has prepared for them that love Him.” When John chapter 14 tells us- “I go to prepare a place for you” it speaks unto us further still of G-d’s providence and benevolence toward us.
Job knew something we don’t know.. He said (Job 23.10) “But He knows the way I take; When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.” Job was willing to sit under the Refiner’s fire to allow the dross to be consumed and the gold to shine forth. Job knew (somehow), he was being tested. Yeshua has already said (to us)- “in this world, you will have tribulation”. If G-d is Sovereign (and He is), and He does “all things well”, (which He does), will we not trust Him also “in all things?” In sickness, and in health? In sorrow- and in wealth? Can this G-d (who is holy), be trusted? Is He Jehovah Jireh?- the G-d who sees? Is He “limited” in His seeing? Is He limited in His ability? Oh my friends- He is Able! He is Able! Mighty G-d (El Gibbor!). Have we forgotten His name? (yes, we have..) Yes, G-d knows- but more importantly G-d cares. He is our compassionate, merciful, holy Abba. He is (always) able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ask or think. This is our G-d. -I will not doubt Him. I’ve spend some quality time in the furnace of affliction. Let me testify with those who have “been there, done that!”- He is absolutely Able!
Carl, Yes, that is exactly my point. But even to use the phrase “eternal now” is to use temporal terms in a futile effort to describe extra-temporal experience. That is why, no matter how much I learn, I keep my ideas of God in a place beyond my ken; because I know that stretching my imagination to the snapping point will not begin to approach the edge of the shadow of His magnitude. Every attempt to define Him loses Him in the effort. Yet we must use words to try to describe the ineffable because words are all we’ve got.
So do I believe that God “experiences” time with us? Yes I do. But I also believe that at the same “time” He also experiences time and space beyond us and beyond our perceived dimensions and our finite perceptions of “time flowing,” and that He IS there in my “future” as I come to it and in my past as I “leave it behind.” And that Yeshua “is” literally slain “from” the foundation of the world, not simply in effect, but in some extra-temporal sense that the greatest human intellectual effort cannot penetrate even the surface of.
So I greatly look forward to Skip’s book and his dealing with Christ’s mixing of the tenses in “Before Abraham WAS I AM,” and all aspects of this question because I am finding already so much confirmation of what I already believe and new angles to ponder in his exposure of the Hebrew Worldview. This is EXACTLY what I have been seeking. I am devouring his “Spiritual Restoration” and ” Words to Lead By” and am leaping excitedly from one “AHA!” experience to another. I haven’t had this much fun since I was a kid.
My only complaint is that I cannot learn fast enough.
Exactly!- I feel just like a kid again, excited to learn new things concerning G-d’s book and G-d’s people. The Ruach HaKodesh reminded me of this chapter in the wonderful book of Psalms. This is 139:1
-For the leader. A psalm of David: ADONAI, you have probed me, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I stand up, you discern my inclinations from afar, you scrutinize my daily activities. You are so familiar with all my ways that before I speak even a word, ADONAI, you know all about it already. You have hemmed me in both behind and in front and laid Your hand on me. Such wonderful knowledge is beyond me, far too high for me to reach. Where can I go to escape Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence? If I climb up to heaven, You are there; if I lie down in Sh’ol, You are there. If I fly away with the wings of the dawn and land beyond the sea, even there Your hand would lead me, Your right hand would hold me fast. If I say, “Let darkness surround me, let the light around me be night,” even darkness like this is not too dark for You; rather, night is as clear as day, darkness and light are the same. For You fashioned my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I thank you because I am awesomely made, wonderfully; Your works are wonders -I know this very well. My bones were not hidden from You when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed. G-d, how I prize your thoughts! How many of them there are! If I count them, there are more than grains of sand; if I finish the count, I am still with You. G-d, if only you would kill off the wicked! Men of blood, get away from me! They invoke your name for their crafty schemes; Yes, your enemies misuse it. ADONAI, how I hate those who hate You! I feel such disgust with those who defy you! I hate them with unlimited hatred! They have become my enemies too. Examine me, G-d, and know my heart; test me, and know my thoughts. See if there is in me any hurtful way, and lead me along the eternal way. (amen)
Chaverim,
Just basking in the glory of Yom Teruah … I hope you all are as well! 🙂 … I was going to hold off on commenting on this post but … The Spirit is willing!
Testing … and foreknowledge … now this naturally stirred things up! 🙂
Isaiah: 53,10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see IF his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand: 53,11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear. 53,12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Do we really think that Yeshua was “going through the motions?” Do we really think that this is all just a pre-scripted play?
Of course ELOHIM is sovereign … and HE knows all about consequences and HE knows all about purposeful actions! HE knows all about HIS plan and the end game … as for what is transpiring in the dynamic … the here and now … each and every moment … as Skip alludes too there is something else going on respective to governance!
Who is the lord of olam hazeh … is it not hasatan? Did mankind not give this control over freely through choice? Did man not acquiesce control that was freely given to us by G_D? What is written?
When Revelations is absorbed … understanding this issue of governance , we see that The LORD is taking back the governance! We see the kingdoms of this world becoming HIS kingdoms! We see the union of sovereignty and governance!
And what can we learn from this? We can see that it is not the all loving and merciful Creator of all Whom allows the nonsense of olam hazeh to proliferate. What we experience in the temporal (worldly that is) are the fruits of the kingdom of hasatan … a kingdom that was rightfully gifted to humanity but in turn given to hasatan. We are experiencing the consequences of wicked governance and ELOHIM allows these consequences because HE is righteousness!
And as mankind gave this control to the adversary … ELOHIM mysteriously being The Son Of Man has won the victory back and in so doing olam hazeh has been judged. Now we await the sentencing when The KING OF KING and LORD OF LORDS will come to govern! We await the great shofar blasts signaling the new age!
It is sad that many people look at this dying creation and either 1) blame ELOHIM for allowing such suffering or 2) Deny that what is taking place can not be so IF there was a G_D!
We really should focus on what we are given by way of Biblical testimony as opposed to the fantasies concocted within the human brain … no?
olam hazeh
Hi Drew,
There is no entry in the glossary or index of Judaism 101 that contains the keyword (HAZEH).
At least that is the message I get.
Only Olam Ha Ba, the world to come.
Is there another spelling of Hazeh?
Thanks,
Mike
hazeh = “this” or “current” … as in hayom hazeh … this day or olam hazeh … this world!
Thanks Drew!
So when we say “thy kingdom come, thy will be done,” don’t we want the kingdom to come to Olam Hazeh, here and now?
We don’t want to go to the Olam Ha Ba yet do we?
I’m confused by what you are saying …
Not many signs of Satan here in Milpitas.
Mostly little angels 🙂
Michael,
Yeshua speaks to being dead to this world … the world that is governed and dominated by a constitution that is not that of The Kingdom! Therefore we are to be in the world but not of the world. This world has been judged … as it is written!
Olam HaBa … is when The King of Kings and Lord of Lords comes to govern! This does not mean that the Kingdom of Heaven is not already here! … But remind me again why would we not want our King to return and take up His throne? Come Yeshua come!
And what I am saying here is not different than what Skip has taught regarding traditional views of heaven, the kingdom of heaven and the constitution of the kingdom.
You should not be confused by this at all … I am simply repeating the truths that have been written!
b/t/w – No signs of Satan in Milpitas? … Must be the only place on Earth then that is immune … or perfect … or perhaps one just is not recognizing the signs! The entire world groans … I think Milpitas, CA is included … no offense meant!
Of course we want His Kingdom to come, but this is an imperative, not the expression of a desire. Read A Prayer To Our Father – Nehemia Gordon. We are asserting that the Kingdom will come, and it will come because we will live according to its governing principles here and now until it dominates the world again.
Whoa, Drew! New understanding here for me! Very helpful. This is great, thank you.
“This does not mean that the Kingdom of Heaven is not already here!”
Hi Drew,
Okay, based on your statement above, I guess we agree that the Kingdom of Heaven is already here.
So why would we want to focus on anything else; “take our eye off the ball,” as it were?
And I never said I did “not want our King to return and take up His throne;” aren’t you putting words in my mouth?
But I see no reason to sit here in Limbo waiting for the tide to roll in.
When I can simply look up and see “all the heavenly beauty” any time I wish.
You often tell us that “it has been written,” but you rarely show us what you mean.
It would be helpful if you would provide the “textual evidence” required to support your case.
I said there are “Not many signs of Satan here in Milpitas.”
I did not say it was “perfect” in Milpitas.
My point was that Milpitas is full of kind and gentle folks.
And I don’t care to associate with those who are not.
One of my favorite books is called Anti-Semite and Jew by Jean Paul Sartre.
Simply put, Sartre’s thesis is that we tend not to see ourselves as Evil.
That Evil is almost always by definition that which is Other to us.
So in a white Christian world, we tend to see the black man or red man or Jew or Muslim as Evil.
For Sartre, this way of engaging in the world is a very dangerous form of Bad Faith.
And I tend to agree with Sartre on this point.
Greetings,
As far as invoking “as it has been written” … and not explaining what I mean? I began with “Isaiah 53” and referenced in general The Book of Revelations and other writings. I presumed that the themes referenced respective to Olam Hazeh and The Lord’s return did not need textual backing given their PROMINENCE within The WORD!
So … as it is written:
Matthew: 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Matthew: 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew: 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Luke: If then Elohim so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? 12:29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 12:30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
John: 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John: 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
John: 9:39 And Yeshua said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John: 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
John: 12:30 Yeshua answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John: 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John: 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John: 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
John: 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John: 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
John: 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
John: 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
John: 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
John: 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John: 18:36 Yeshua answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Romans: 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of Elohim.
1 Corinthians: 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of Elohim; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of Elohim.
2 Corinthians: 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Mashiach, who is the image of Elohim, should shine unto them.
Ephesus: 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Ephesus: 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
Phillipians: 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of Elohim, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Mashiach, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Colossians: 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Mashiach.
Colossians: 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Mashiach from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
2 Timothy: 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 4:11 Only Luke is with me.
James: 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with Elohim? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of Elohim.
2 Peter: 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of unElohimly men.
1 John: 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of Elohim abideth for ever.
1 John: 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of Elohim: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John: 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.
1 John: 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 4:6 We are of Elohim: he that knoweth Elohim heareth us; he that is not of Elohim heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Revelations: 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Mashiach; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelations: 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So once again … we can speak with clarity as to Olam Hazeh … and how we are dead to it and who is in charge of it and who is the father of its children!
Yes we are the light within olam hazeh … not just some couch potato sitting back waiting for the tide to roll in … but rather living towards the constitution of the kingdom and living with the eye on the prize … Yeshua!
As far as Skip’s comment about Yeshua’s return being an imperative and not a desire … well I would think that this is debatable … on one hand it is horrific but on the other hand it is totally glorious and righteous! I think Skip’s position on this matter is just one perspective and not an absolute! 🙂
“Revelations: 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Revelations: 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Mashiach; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
Revelations: 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Well Drew,
To paraphrase my old boss, Ross Perot, you’ve got the devil buried mighty deep in the detail.
LOL … 🙂
Perhaps my brother I am bit presumptuous at times respective to what thematic propositions within Scripture are just simply known by believers! The details as you say are the basis for the recurring themes and patterns. Frankly I do not offer opinions/observations, et. al. that are not supported in similar fashion!
Not that I don’t think out of the box but I would only provide testimony with positions that are quantifiable and supported within The Word! If I do stray outside this modus operandi … please feel free to challenge … it is a good thing after all! 🙂