Reductio Ad Absurdum
Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Ba’al, and go after other gods that you have not known, and then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, “We are delivered!” – only to go on doing all these abominations? Jeremiah 7:9-10
We Are Delivered – Nitsalnoo. The verb is natsal, “to deliver, to overpower one force with another.” While the verse is sometimes translated “We are saved,” it should not be confused with the verb usually associated with saving – yasha’. What does Jeremiah have to say about this jubilant proclamation? It is worthless. It is self-contradictory. It is absurd. How can the people believe they are saved simply because they come to God’s house and announce it. There is no salvation unless there is concerted effort to reflect the character of God in actions. Salvation is not a state of existence. It is a dynamic relation. Just as sin is an adverb, so is salvation. From Jeremiah’s perspective, where the relation does not exist, the adverb does not apply.
Don’t get theologically bent out of shape here. Just step back a moment and think about the consequences of realizing that sin is an adverb, an expression of a relation of circumstance. If sin is not something in me but rather a dynamic description of my actions, then changes in my behavior affect the circumstances described by the word “sin.” I don’t need to have sin washed from my very being. I need my sins, my actions, cleaned up. I need to change my way of living. A change in my actions changes the circumstances that describe me. I become righteous. In order to do that, I need a change in motivation, attitude, direction and capability. The Spirit of the Lord is ready to assist me in all these things. I stop acting sinfully and start acting righteously.
Most Christian theology rejects the idea that men can be saved without any change in their subsequent behavior. Even those who ascribe to some version of “once saved always saved” struggle with the idea that a man can be saved and go right on sinning. But perhaps the real reason we end up in these dilemmas is a function of our grammar, not our Bibles. Greek metaphysics is reflected in the grammar of a world full of nouns. In that world, even dynamic relations take on independent existence. Remember the story of the Hebrew and the Greek who see three pots in the kitchen. The Greek says, “There are three pots, one of silver, one of gold, one of clay.” The Hebrew says, “There is a vessel of gold, a vessel of silver and a vessel of clay. If you take away the gold, silver and clay, there is no vessel left called a pot.” In the Greek world, attributes are attached to the supposed ideal reality. In the Hebrew world, the only reality is the functional reality. There is no ideal “pot” to which gold or silver or clay is attached.
Deliverance is not something that exists independently of the relation that causes it. That relation is right alignment with God. It is the dynamic of being in right relation that produces the circumstance called “deliverance.” Just as sin is the expression of a broken relation, salvation is an expression of a mended relation. Both words exist in their function, not as independent entities that are attached to a person. You can think of it like the pots. If you take away the adverb expressing the condition of the relation, you take away the functional connection. To be a follower is to follow. One cannot be a follower and wander off.
Deep grammar* often rearranges our view of reality and results in mind-puzzles. But there is a simple correction. God built His creation to reflect His character. We have some basic intuition that followers must be following. When we look at the verbs, we can sometimes straighten out the nouns. Got any twisted nouns in your spiritual vocabulary? Maybe you need to be more verbal.
Topical Index: natsal, deliver, adverb, salvation, sin, Jeremiah 7:9-10
*deep grammar is not concerned with actual linguistic architecture but rather with the philosophical implications of the structure of language. It is about “life-forms.” It takes its direction from Wittgenstein’s remark, “If a lion could speak, we would not understand him” (Philosophical Investigations). If this isn’t your thing, don’t worry about it.
Rosanne and I left for Australia by boat today (from Honolulu). We will have a 16 day journey to reach Sydney, then 2 weeks in Australia before we head home (by plane). So, enjoy the blog. I will not comment for quite awhile but I see from the last few days that you (plural) are entering into some lively discussion. I will miss you. I’ll check in when I get there.
Skip
Great minds think alike. Rabbi Sha’ul said (in Roman 6:1) “Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace?” And then in answer to this question was the response,- “G-d forbid!” “That’s unthinkable!” “May it never be!” “Of course not!”
And the answer is…. -“No,”- (an emphatic no) -we will not. For “it is written” (don’t you love those three words?- Have we ever heard them before? Were you listening when they were spoken? Who spoke them and to who?) “Sin shall no longer have dominion over you.” “Sin is no longer your master.” If I sin now, it is because I want to. I want to sin? -HELLO???- I want to sin?? Somebody please -“hold my sign.” (the one that says “stupid”)
Further questions? We (who are His) are “more than conquerors” (look up the “more than”-please do) through Him that loved us.
Jesus saves. Y’shua delivers. Remember Rabbi Sha’uls lament “Who shall deliver me? (The man was struggling)..- His answer?
(Romans 8.37-39) “No, in all these things we are superconquerors, through the One who has loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor other heavenly rulers, neither what exists nor what is coming, neither powers above nor powers below, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of G-d which comes to us through the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord.”
Paul found the peace he was seeking- have we? Rabbi Sha’ul found a “resting place,”- have we?
Is ours, a “settled” faith?
My faith has found a resting place,
Not in device nor creed;
I trust the Everliving One,
His wounds for me shall plead.
I need no other argument,
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.
Enough for me that Jesus saves,
This ends my fear and doubt;
A sinful soul I come to Him,
He’ll never cast me out.
My heart is leaning on the Word,
The written Word of God,
Salvation by my Savior’s name,
Salvation through His blood.
My great Physician heals the sick,
The lost He came to save;
For me His precious blood He shed,
For me His life He gave.
“We are delivered” is a settled statement of fact. -Yeshua paid it all. All to Him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow. “How blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven” (Romans 4:7-8)
Hi Carl,
As I understand it, the Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, is divided into three parts, but only “part one” is regarded as “scripture.”
Part one is the five books of the Torah (“teaching” or “law”) which describe the origins of the Israelite nation, its laws, and its covenant with the God of Israel.
There is no passage in scripture that refers to “Yeshua” as far as I know.
When Yeshua arrives on the scene, he is a Master of the entire Tanakh; and he defines himself in terms of the Hebrew Bible.
When he addresses the Hebrew community, some of the Hebrews become followers of his “way” and some of the Hebrews don’t.
We know that on the one hand Yeshua believes in the Tanakh, and on the other, that he has no proof in writing that he is the Son of Man.
In any case, that is how I understand the meaning of “it is written.”
-As I understand it, the Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, is divided into three parts, but only “part one” is regarded as “scripture.
So, how do we refer to the other two parts? If these are not also scripture then what?
Luke 24:27 -Then, starting with Moshe and all the prophets, He explained to them the things that can be found throughout the Tanakh concerning Himself.
It is His book! He (Himself) is the Author! -YHWH became a man! His name was -and is- Y’shua- (whose very Name is Salvation!)- lol!!!
(Matthew 16:13-20)
When Yeshua came into the territory around Caesarea Philippi, He asked his talmidim, “Who are people saying the Son of Man is?” They said, “Well, some say Yochanan the Immerser, others Eliyahu, still others Yirmeyahu or one of the prophets.” “But you,” He said to them, “who do you say I am?” Shim`on Kefa answered, “You are the Mashiach, the Son of the living God.” “Shim`on Bar-Yochanan,” Yeshua said to him, “how blessed you are! -For no human being revealed this to you, no, it was my Father in heaven. I also tell you this: you are Kefa,” [which means `Rock,’] “and on this rock I will build my Community, and the gates of Sh’ol will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.” Then He warned the talmidim not to tell anyone that He was the Messiah.
“If these are not also scripture then what?”
“(Matthew 16:13-20)”
Hi Carl,
To your “then what,” I would reply that it is good to know that Matthew is not scripture in the Hebrew worldview, because it is true.
If you don’t want to know the truth in the Hebrew worldview, you might just as well take the blue pill, go back to sleep, and believe whatever you want.
As I understand it, in the Hebrew worldview, Matthew is considered to be Midrash.
We tend to think of the NT as part four of the Hebrew Bible, but the Hebrews don’t.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/luke/24.html
(Revelation 5.9-140
and they sang a new song, “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals; because you were slaughtered; at the cost of blood you ransomed for God persons from every tribe, language, people and nation. You made them into a kingdom for God to rule, cohanim to serve him; and they will rule over the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard the sound of a vast number of angels – thousands and thousands, millions and millions! They were all around the throne, the living beings and the elders; and they shouted out, “Worthy is the slaughtered Lamb to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory and praise!” And I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea – yes, everything in them – saying, “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb belong praise, honor, glory and power forever and ever!” The four living beings said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00tKQY6b_GU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtR5-OoMhPM&feature=related
Hi Carl,
I don’t find pictures of Jesus being tortured to be very inspiring.
Back in 1967, I saw a “double bill” with The Professionals and a Fistfull of Dollars.
I prefer watching Claudia Cardinale riding off to Mexico with Jesus Raza in the The Professionals.
Or Clint Eastwood’s comeback story in a Fistfull of Dollars after he has been beaten up pretty badly.
Fistfull of Dollars – Final Fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiQntJC-Efw
“The Professionals and a Fistfull of Dollars”
Just a little movie director trivia here; watching the Final Fight, I noticed a new “filmic signifier.”
The scene in which Clint Eastwood comes out of the “swirl of dust” is great by any standard.
In the penultimate scene of the Professionals, Burt Lancaster comes out of a “swirl of dust” too.
At the end of the Professionals, we think Jesus Raza is dead; that he has been killed down in Mexico by Bill Dolworth (Burt Lancaster).
But off on the horizon, they see something coming out of the Mexican Desert.
Jake Sharp: A cloud o’ dust! Could be Mister Raza.
Hans Ehrengard: Could be most anything. Even a whirling dervish.
Rico: That, gentlemen, is the whirlingest dervish of them all (ie Burt Lancatser with Raza).
And just what is a whirling dervish?
Well “Dar” in Persian means “a door”, so Dervish is said to literally mean “one who opens the doors”.
The whirling dance of a Sufi is proverbially associated with Dervishes, and is the practice of the Mevlevi Order in Turkey, part of a formal ceremony known as the Sema.
It is someone treading a Sufi Muslim ascetic path, or “Tariqah”, known for their extreme poverty and austerity, and similar to mendicant friars in Christianity or Hindu/Buddhist/Jain sadhus.
In my view, what is happening here in the film is that the American director Richard Brooks is tipping his hat to the great Italian film director Sergio Leone by adding a little mystical dimension to Clint’s last scene in the dust.
Brookes copies the last scene from a Fistfull of Dollars and adds a Mendicant Dervish to the last scene in The Professionals.
A deeper mystical dimension, just for fun 🙂
“The Greek says, ‘There are three pots, one of silver, one of gold, one of clay.’ The Hebrew says, ‘There is a vessel of gold, a vessel of silver and a vessel of clay. If you take away the gold, silver and clay, there is no vessel left called a pot.'”
What would the Greek say if you take away the gold, silver and clay?
-So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:18)
-“the best things in life aren’t things”-
-you may have all three pots. -To keep or give away.
“What would the Greek say if you take away the gold, silver and clay?”
Ian – this is a Greek question! The Greek would look to the metaphysical, of course.
“this is a Greek question! The Greek would look to the metaphysical, of course.”
Hi Ian
What makes this question a “Greek” question any more than asking “What would the Hebrew say if you took away the gold, silver and clay.”
Skip answered the second question. He just didn’t answer the first. I was trying to find out the effective “other half” of his comparison of Greek and Hebrew.
Ian’s right, I didn’t answer the first question. Since the Hebrew worldview is focused on the purpose rather than the construction, perhaps the Hebrew response would be, “I don’t understand the question. You seem to think that there is a vessel here that is made of something but I see something that is a vessel. If I take away the purpose of the vessel, then it’s no longer a vessel. It really doesn’t matter what material makes it. It doesn’t exist as a vessel without its purpose.”
Just a suggestion. To really know, I will have to go to Jerusalem and ask. 🙂
The reason Michael, for these “portrayals” of Y’shua was to show blood. The Jews are G-d’s covenant people. “Covenant” is a forever word. It is not a promise, not a contract, it is a covenant. I am appalled at the ignorance and apathy so prevalent in today’s world (both Greek and Hebrew), and lack of understanding (for lack of a better word) of the reality of the Blood Covenant..
Yom Kippur is soon to be upon us. It is the Day of (Blood) Atonement. It is the day in which (only) the High Priest would enter into the Holy of holies to sprinkle blood upon the Mercy Seat.
According to the Biblical directions, the Holy of Holies could only be entered at Yom Kippur, and even then could only be entered by the Jewish High Priest, who was covenanted to do so in order to sprinkle the blood of a sacrificial bull onto the mercy seat, as an atonement for himself and his family, the other priests, the Tabernacle, and the people of Israel;
Today, there is no temple sacrifice. The shedding of blood is no longer needed. We are above that now,- we have evolved. We no longer need re-generation, just a bit of “re-flection,” After all, I’m not such a bad person. At least not as “bad” as him, or her. I can always change my ways and do good unto my neighbor. G-d would be pleased with that. A few good deeds, indeed.- Wow!
There is therefore -no more need for a Savior either. I’m sorry Y’shua had to die such a gruesome death, but hey,- that’s his business. “Son of G-d”- what a quack, what a nut job.
-What about all those prophecies (over 300), He fulfilled?- Just lucky I guess.
-What about His perfect life?- ok, He was a good man. A Teacher.
-What about His (bodily) resurrection from the tomb? Yeah- what about it..
-What about His Ruach HaKodesh in thousands of “Christ-followers” today?
-What about the changes I have personally been witness to in scores of lives”
-What about the fact I have never seen any of His words yet-to be false?
-What about “in-your-face” answers to prayer?
“The reason Michael, for these “portrayals” of Y’shua was to show blood.”
Hi Carl,
I understand your intentions, but I do not share your desire for blood sacrifice.
Until the Temple in Jerusalem is restored, it is a purely academic issue as I understand it.
I Googed “blood sacrifice” and “Judaism 101” and came up with the following information:
Question: What replaced animal sacrifices in Jewish practice?
Answer: Prayer has taken the place of sacrifices in Jewish practice.
HOSEA 14:3 reads:
“Take with you words, and turn to the Lord.
Say to Him, forgive all iniquity and receive us graciously, so we will offer the words of our lips instead of calves.”
Were sacrifices a symbol of the savior to come?
Not according to Judaism.
Quite the contrary, some would say that the original institution of sacrifice had more to do with the Judaism’s past than with its future.
Rambam suggested that the entire sacrificial cult in Judaism was ordained as an accommodation of man’s primitive desires.
Sacrifice is an ancient and universal human expression of religion.
Greeks and Romans and Canaanites and Egyptians all offered sacrifices to their gods.
Sacrifice existed among the Hebrews long before the giving of the Torah. Cain and Abel offered sacrifices; Noah and his sons offered sacrifices, and so forth.
When the laws of sacrifice were given to the Children of Israel in the Torah, the pre-existence of a system of sacrificial offering was understood, and sacrificial terminology was used without any explanation.
The Torah, rather than creating the institution of sacrifice, carefully limited the practice, permitting it only in certain places, at certain times, in certain manners, by certain people, and for certain purposes.
Rambam suggests that these limitations are designed to wean a primitive people away from the debased rites of their idolatrous neighbors.
Thank you Michael. Open communication between us is a beautiful thing. I am grateful for this. May I ask, If Y’shua is not the Chosen ONE, the Messiah, G-d Incarnate, as He claimed to be- why did He receive the worship of men? -and has He not done a fine job of deluding thousands of people all over the world, (including myself)?
Well you are welcome and I have certainly learned a lot from you too!
“If Y’shua is not the Chosen ONE, the Messiah, G-d Incarnate, as He claimed to be…”
Hi Carl,
Well I’m no expert, but I would not argue that Y’shua is not the Chosen ONE, the Messiah, G-d Incarnate, as He claimed to be 🙂
For me, to say that Y’shua is G-d Incarnate doesn’t mean he is Yahweh God, creator of heaven and earth.
For me, he is an Incarnated “Son of God,” something like Ha Satan and the other Sons of God that we see in the beginning of the Book of Job.
-Avraham, your father, was glad that he would see my day; then he saw it and was overjoyed.” “Why, you’re not yet fifty years old,” the Judeans replied, and you have seen Avraham?” Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!” At this, they picked up stones to throw at him; but Yeshua was hidden and left the Temple grounds.-
“Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!”
Hi Carl,
One could accuse you of being a bit enigmatic, but I think your point is that Y’shua is identifying himself as I AM (God) and saying that he was around before Avraham.
I guess I would argue that as a Son of God, he was around in the Heavens long before Avraham.
But let me start by asking if the following statement is true.
So Y’shua created humankind in his own image; in the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
No. The sentence is silly.
Does anybody believe that Y’shua created the heavens and the earth?
Jews are forbidden to represent God in a physical form. That is considered idolatry.
Y’shua came in a physical form.
God is neither male nor female, but Y’shua was a man who died and was resurrected.
God doesn’t die.
I guess my question to you is in what sense is Y’shua God?
By self definition he is the Son of God.
–So Y’shua created humankind in his own image; in the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
No. The sentence is silly.–
Neither of us can deny-this book is a mystery. But there are clues and keys along the way. This website is one of those keys to help us unravel the tangled tale. The Bible is a book that is split in two. There are those among us who reject or refuse for reasons unknown (until they are revealed), one half or the other, or “throw up their hands” and walk away from the whole thing. Just place it in a box, label it “religion,” and then throw the whole thing away. (Where’s my Staples© “Easy Button?”
However- there is “something” here that attracts us both (and the rest of the “lurkers”- who read our words and smile.- Hello lurkers,- please comment,- nobody will bite you-we have deemed this a “safe-house”- lol!)
This would be a good place for a commercial break! -lol! I believe (strongly- a ten out of a ten)- the Bible to be G-d’s self-revelation. Isaiah 28 speaks to us like this:
Can no one be taught anything? Can no one understand the message? Must one teach barely weaned toddlers, babies just taken from the breast, (10) so that [one has to use nursery rhymes]? Tzav la-tzav, tzav la-tzav, kav la-kav, kav la-kav z’eir sham, z’eir sham [Precept by precept, precept by precept, line by line, line by line, a little here, a little there].
This is how everyone from Frick to Frack learns. “Baby steps”- (from one of your favorite movies- “What About Bob.” Enter Dr. Skip Moen- our instructor. Every day we receive one “key” or one clue to help each of us unravel the mystery of G-d. (1 Timothy 3.16) The word of G-d says: “Great beyond all question is the formerly hidden truth underlying our faith: He was manifested physically and proved righteous spiritually, seen by angels and proclaimed among the nations, trusted throughout the world and raised up in glory to heaven.” This may sound a bit like Abbot and Costello (comic geniuses), but we want to know -who is (the) “He” referred to here? Could it be (the) Christ?
The Messiah was “forecast” but “concealed” in the first half of the book. We are able to “see” Him in type and shadow. There are hundreds of references to Him. The manner and place of His birth, life, death, and resurrection and future reign as King of kings and LORD of lords. (Remember,-it is His story).
In “part 2”- the rest of the story. Messiah is fulfilled and revealed. We now see Him in truth and substance- the “Word”-logos-became flesh. Pardon me but- “Word.” – lol! It’s true! lol!- Total joy!- the promised Messiah has come. My spirit Michael is soaring within me and my eyes are blurry with tears as I type these words. – Why? Yes…-why? -Because He is! Y’shua said-“I AM.” Carl says-“He is.”
“Because He is! Y’shua said-”I AM.” Carl says-”He is.””
OK
I got it Carl.
But orthogonally speaking you’ve had me going across the wrong line of thought.
Over at the house yesterday with my daughter and her mother, my daughter had a question.
She was asking about “vertical angles,” and her mother, who is VERY good at math said “say what?”
And even I knew enough to say, “you mean vertical lines,” but my daughter said “no I mean angles, the book says angles.”
OK. You learn something new everyday.
Makes me think of MH Abrams, the Great Grandaddy of English and American Literature when I was in Grad school. (BTW He is still at Cornell last I looked).
I remember MH Abrams had mentioned something about Adam Kadmon in one of his books, I think it was Natural Supernaturalism, and I knew intuitively that that strange concept had something to do with The Scarlet Letter A, but I could never find anything written about that stuff way back then, probably because it was mostly discussed in Hebrew back in those days.
So let’s look at your point not on the “horizontal” level of narrative, but rather on the “vertical” level of “structure.”
And what unveils itself is something like the following way to think of Jesus as I AM, the as the four attributes of God, which represent the son in the so called “middle column” between the Father and the Mother:
1. The Spirit of YHWH (called Crown (Keter))
6. Harmony/Beauty (Teferet)
9. Foundation (Yesod)
10. Kingdom/Kingship (Malakut)
This is the Image of YHWH which is the Messiah, who is the likeness of G-d.
(2Cor. 4:4)
[his Son] who is the image of the invisible G-d…
(Col. 1:15)
[the Son] who is the radiance of his glory, and the image of his being…
(Heb. 1:3)
Christ as Adam Kadmon.
Oh yeah, remember my friends Michele and David and their daughter’s new house at 711 Corona, which overlooks the ocean.
An image of Paradise.
“An image of Paradise.”
Looking down from the 2nd floor of their daughter’s new house at 711 Corona.
I could see the beach where the 5 young men died.
The five boys were on the right-hand side of the beach, in the rip tide.
On the right hand side of the beach, my best friend was still out surfing when they died.
oops, my friend was on the left hand side of the beach.
Dear Skip,
We have moved to Tennessee and have been forced to change ISP’s. The link to change e-mail address was “missing” so I thought I’d try to get the new info to you this way.
pastorles@centurylink.net
290 Telford-New Victory Rd., Telford, TN 37690
423-753-0033
Thanks and God bless,
Les Young