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“Also the foreigners who join themselves to YHWH, to minister to Him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath and holds fast My covenant;” Isaiah 56:6
Profaning – Does this verse apply to you? Well, are you a foreigner (literally, “sons of the strange” oov’nei hanekar)? Have you joined yourself to YHWH to minister to Him? Do you love His name? This covers most of us, doesn’t it? The words of YHWH, spoken by Isaiah, make it pretty clear that YHWH invites us to join His people. But intention and motivation aren’t quite enough. Action is also required.
The Hebrew verb under scrutiny is halal. This verb has three distinct meanings. We will look at the third, “to profane, to defile.” This is primarily used in relation to ritual and ceremony in worship, but it is also used for sexual defilement (Genesis 49:4) and breaking a covenant (Malachi 2:10). In other words, the scope of these acts of defilement extends to each aspect of God’s relationship with Israel – a covenant based in the metaphor of marriage that involves practices and rituals.
With this background, it is difficult to imagine how anyone who meets the first requirements of intention and motivation can ignore or reject the second requirements of action. Keeping Sabbath and holding fast (hazaq – to be strong, to be courageous) to the covenant are requirements of those who join themselves to the God of Israel. How is it possible to reconcile God’s words here with Constantine’s creed required of everyone who joined the Christian Church? That creed reads, “I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspirations, purifications, sanctifications, and propitiations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants, and observances and synagogues. absolutely everything Jewish, every Law, rite and custom . . .”[1] Constantine rejected the words of the God of Israel. He determined that Christianity was based on a different foundation – his words!
Once we read the history, this presents an enormous problem for most Christians. Will we live in direct disobedience to the words of our God? Will we worship according to YHWH or Constantine? Now that you know, what will you do? Most Christians have no idea that the day of worship was determined by a Roman emperor, but now that you know, what will you do? Will you continue to worship on Sunday because it’s just too difficult to explain to your friends why you no longer go to Church? Will you adopt the replacement theology that Yeshua changed it, claiming YHWH’s words in Isaiah don’t apply anymore? Or will you face the consequences of attaching yourself to the One you love and serve Him according to His instructions?
Topical Index: profane, halal, Sabbath, Constantine, creed, Isaiah 56:6
[1] Stcfano Assemani, Acta Sanctorium Martyrum Orientalium at Occidentalium, Vol. 1, Rome 1748, p. 105.
Hi Skip,
This is exactly my difficulty. I would love to keep sabbath in stead of sunday. But this caused hudge, I mean HUDGE problems in my congregation. I’ve even been called apostate. My family doesn’t understand what’s happening to me. They simply do not want to listen, are very busy defending their tradition (dispensationalism) to put me strait. It’s starting to feel lonely… But that doesn’t matter: I want to listen to the word of Jhwh, not to anyone elses. The only difficulty is: where do I go to celebrate sabbath?
Bless you all!
Does anyone know for sure that the messianic congregations of today are celebrating Shabat as instructed by YHWH to Moses?
I don’t! Know that is.
Hi Patrick,
That’s a good question!
I don’t know much about messianic congregations.
But based on your familiarity with the folks that Rabbi Gorelik teaches.
I’m wondering if you would consider them to be a “messianic congregation?”
If that is not an easy question to answer, I think we have an issue 🙂
Is.30:19 O people, living in Zion, at Jerusalem, your weeping will be ended; he will certainly have mercy on you at the sound of your cry; when it comes to his ear, he will give you an answer.
20 And though the Lord will give you the bread of trouble and the water of grief, you will no longer put your teacher on one side, but you will see your teacher:
21 And at your back, when you are turning to the right hand or to the left, a voice will be sounding in your ears, saying, This is the way in which you are to go.
22 And you will make unclean what is covering your pictured images of silver, and the plating of your images of gold: you will send them away as an unclean thing, saying, Be gone!
Dear Kees,
You are experiencing the common reaction. All of us who were Sunday keepers and became convicted and convinced to repent have our exodus stories. They are similar but different. The out come is always the same. YHVH comes down and makes it happen.
For a long time we kept Sabbath alone. We now keep it in our home with two other couples and two children. We humorously call ourselves the church of the kicked out ones. You can’t be a member until you’ve been kicked out of at least one church. After two you qualify for elder, and three entitles you to run for the office of senior pastor if you meet all the other biblical qualifications.
We can be lighthearted about it now but that was certainly not the case for anyone at the time it was happening. The words frightening, excruciatingly painful, and gut-wrenching come to mind to actually recall it to memory. But the beauty He has replaced the ashes of the experience with have taken all the pain away.
Please be encouraged that it is possible, God willing, to retain your “TRUE” friends. This is ALWAYS an amazing opportunity to demonstrate the truth of scripture and the power of YHVH as He makes it possible for you to live out your convictions. There are 2 main keys to accomplish this.
1. Pray your guts out. Pray Pray Pray and I’ll pray with you.
2. Study and demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit. They are not being called to do what you are being called to. You are being called to be a witness to them. Don’t take their anger personally. They are frightened for you. Be patient, kind, and looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooongsuffering.
We still visit other Churches occasionally but as you know, it is very disruptive for the congregation so we only go occasionally and only talk about it when we’re asked the question “So where do you go to church now?” It’s an opportunity to sprinkle a little salt on the congregations we love without dumping a truckload on them. They are faced with the witness, not torched by it.
Hello, Kees
Until you get the dilemma solved both in your own heart, and with that of your congregation, perhaps the following verses from the Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible may be of comfort to you:
Mt 6:4 that thy kindness may be in secret, and thy Father who is seeing in secret Himself shall reward thee manifestly.
Mt 6:6 ‘But thou, when thou mayest pray, go into thy chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who is seeing in secret, shall reward thee manifestly.
Mt 6:18 that thou mayest not appear to men fasting, but to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father, who is seeing in secret, shall reward thee manifestly.
I understand your feeling of loneliness. That is my experience also, but not for the same reasons you express.
God’s blessings,
Helen
Hi Helen,
I really like your lines from Matthew, but you left out one of my favorites.
And when you pray, do not imitate the hypocrites: they love to say their prayers standing up in the synagogues and at the street corners for people to see them.
Matthew 6:5
I’m thinking it would probably behoove us to enter into a covenant with Jesus in which we promise not to behave like a hypocrite. 🙂
Right on Helen. There is need to be firmly resolved in our own hearts first. That takes time, patients, and prayer.
Kees, are there any Messianic congregations in your town/city/area – that would be where I would attend if I were in your situation – just a suggestion.
So basicly you are saying worship is when one enters into a covenant committment with Jesus, for this is what Paul refered to in Romans 12 when he exhorts believers to present their bodies as a living scarifice pleasing and acceptable to God; for this is worship.
Worship is not a day set aside to practice man’s traditions; too many people practice their faith by tradition; thus, living out a life by the flesh. A life that feeds the ego that makes one feel “good”. What the Lord asks of us is to practice our faith through knowing Jesus ( a covenant committment) lead by the spirit; that feeds the soul and denys the flesh.
Almost. The only difference is that I am no longer sure that Paul’s instructions can be pulled out of the context of the synagogue in Rome. That makes a huge difference about who he was telling to be living sacrifices and why. Can I suggest you look at Mark Nanos’ The Mystery of Romans. He makes a compelling argument that Paul was actually writing to the Gentile believers in that congregation in order for them to live as witnesses to the Jews who had not accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. It makes a big difference in the way we apply his comments.
“It makes a big difference in the way we apply his comments.”
It would make a big difference! Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re sayiny but I’m dumbfounded that I’ve never considered before today that anyone would think that Paul was talking to the Jews. Because it’s the Letter to the ROMANS, and Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, plus given the fact that the elders apparently were at least somewhat Hellenize (the Roman Catholics have their roots in Rome) I have always just assumed they were a mixture of mostly God fearers in the synagogue because of the Jerusalem councils directive to go there and hear Moses on Shabbat.
Here’s a mouthful.
Isn’t the only commitment anyone can have with Jesus by covenant? God sets the terms for redemption and as far as I can see, it’s only by covenant and only the redeemed can offer up worship in Spirit and in truth. Therefore anything else cannot really constitute worship because any other relationship cannot be a commitment? I wish I knew how to insert those neat little smiley face. This one would be the cross eyed one!
Hi Skip,
I’m not sure you’ll read this, due to the time difference in Australia and your traveling around, but, I’ll send it out and hope for a response, if not tomorrow, then sometime in the near future. It’s 9:30 p.m. Chicago time.
I was recently speaking with a Messianic Jewish friend, who’s a professor of Jewish Studies (and knows you BTW from Trinity) about the Torah. I had given him your “End of days” from Oct. 8th to read.
His thinking is that we are no longer under the Torah Law, but are now under Messianic Law. He absolutely feels we are bound by the WISDOM of the Law, but not the Law itself.
He pointed out that Paul was an evangelistic strategist and when it came to “amoral issues” he often would adapt to the culture around him. He referenced 1st Corinthians 9.
I have the option of worshiping on Saturday, but understand it’s not so easy for everyone. I wonder if God is more interested in our heart than the day of the week??
Don’t know if you agree or disagree, but would love to hear a brief comment from you on this.
Hope Australia is treating you well. It’s a stunningly beautiful country.
Judi
feeling a bit…..poor in spirit,.. …mournfull…..meek…..hungry and thirsty for righteousness…..being persecuted…. insulted? Always have to be the peacemaker, showing mercy, because you want to get your heart pure before YHWH? ……..oh blessed are you!!! Math5
It took God a year full year to get me to mention a word about Sabbath to anyone, another 6 months before actually trying to keep One ( all the kids’ school sports are on Saturdays and I was a keen cyclist).
It took months to get a small family of 4 seated around a table with 2 lit candles. Now 2 years later we have the Lords Sabbath meal as regularly as possible and I do my best to keep Sabbath. And when its not possible , the L-rd knows the intentions of my heart, as long as I do my best to obey and show that I want to do business with the Living God. My husband still plays golf and still ask the question ” how do we know what day is the seventh day”? But I truly believe that God will show him the truth on His time.
We don’t go to church, but have a blessed Torah group with about 20 regulars, (nearly 50 more not so regular) getting together on a Monday evening. And all of this especially my hubby participating in everything, I call one BIG miracle!
I, too have a small problem with the traditions during the Sabbath meal. What is Hebrew and what is Jewish tradition? Up to now we have done Jewish, which is awesome, but is it right? My friend for example, lights a third candle for the return of Yeshua. I know that I can’t go wrong between doing what YHWH instructed and that what Yeshua did. So I am still seeking the Word.
If you are very much alone on a Sabbath, log on to a Messianic congregation over the internet. Most of the time we listen on the Saturday morning( that’s just before the golflol!) to the previous evening’s live, 2 hour Torah service of Monte Judah at http://www.lionlamb.net. I am sure there are plenty of other internet services to choose from.
I can truly say that since I left the church, where I was only busy with God once a week, He is now busy with me, everyday ,24/7.
As you said: it takes time, patience, prayer and this week I am facing the in-laws, so I pray for a little extra of each please!
May Avinu (our Father) in heaven grant these and all the desires of your heart. Amen and Amen
This is my dilemma. There are no messianic synagogues here. Also though the church is flawed, it is all that we have for providing Bible education to my kids. So what is a mom in the deep south to do?
Hi Susan,
I am also living in the south and as far as I know, there are no Messianic congregations here. I do not have the issue with children, since my daughter is grown, but I can surely sympathize with you. You love them and have a desire for them to know the LORD.
If I could speak frankly about this issue with the children…I would ask you to pray about this in earnest. While my daughter was growing up, I was doing the best I knew how. I grew up 100% “un”churched which realistically translated means I was not raised/taught to know God, His Son or anything about Him. At 34, I surrendered my life to Him and promised Him I would raise my only child in “the church”. I became quite active “in church” and served anywhere I could. I was asked to teach SS classes and did so from preschoolers to adults. But as I studied, I discovered quite a number of inconsistencies and incongruent teaching that left much of the Scriptures dangling and disconnected from one another. The whole counsel of the Word became more like a puzzle with more and more missing pieces. What I am trying to convey is this: who better to teach your children than you! Scripturally that is the way this is done. YOU learn and YOU teach your children. Read Deuteronomy 6 and Deuteronomy 11. Even as a SS “teacher” I would tell my children not to expect someone else to learn about God for them but to study the Word of God themselves and ask Him for understanding and a heart to obey Him…to do what He says. And I would tell the adults, DO NOT give the responsibility for raising your children to someone else, academically and especially spiritually.
It is reported that “homeschooled” children are more successful than publicly educated children. Not knocking the public school system, I think it has everything to do with parent involvement. Engaged parents are key! This has got to carry over into the spiritual, in fact it BEGINS here. We cannot separate our spiritual lives from ANY other area of our lives if we belong to God. AS we grow in our knowledge of who He is and what pleases Him, we are conformed to Yeshua’s image, we are made WHOLE, undivided, COMPLETE!
He is faithful to keep us and to perform His will. Bless you as you seek Him with all your heart! Praying for you.
Proverbs 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed
Hi Susan and Kees,
You might want to check out PaltTalk on the Sabbath. There’s usually several good Torah studies and discussion going on that anyone can interact with. PalTalk got me thru alot of isolated Sabbaths and I learned a great deal from others. And PalTalk can be downloaded and used free of charge 🙂 Hope this helps.
I am also living in the south and as far as I know, there are no Messianic congregations here.
I meant here in my local area. I live 1 hour away from Fayetteville, NC. Any body out there close enough to get together? Email me mer.snead@yahoo.com
A good morning to all! Grace and peace to you from G-d our Father and from the LORD Jesus Christ.
Providence is amazing. I love the way G-d works. His ways truly are perfect. Out of respect for time- which is always the “crunch”- I will start and end with this – “Looking unto Jesus.” He IS the chosen ONE.
Yeshua is our husband and we are His bride. (We who have been called by His name). My friends, do you or do you not belong to Him? – I did not ask if you were Jewish, Gentile, Episcopalian, or Vegetarian, the question is do you belong to Him? Christianity is not a list of rules -it is a relationship. I do not concentrate on Constantine, neither do I prefer my own pastor. No, no, and no. Neither do I look unto Skip Moen, or Barak Obama, or Moses or David or any other man- including the man I shave everyday. No. I will look unto Yeshua who is the Annointed One, who is the Master/Teacher of His perfect Torah.
There is no confusion to me, not one bit. I am to live according to His Torah. Get it? Got it? Good. This is not man’s Torah- a list of 613 “rules for righteous living. G-d’s Torah is much deeper, wider, longer and higher than man’s “list of rules.” (My ways are NOT your ways, and my thoughts are NOT your thoughts). G-d’s “Torah” starts with Genesis 1.1 and travels the length of His book. The entire book is G-d’s revelation of Himself. His book starts with the beginning and travels all way until eternity. Revelation tells us of our future. Past, present and future are all contained within His book. Written in Hebrew (the foundation) and Greek- the structure. Hebrew is the framework and Greek is the flesh. The Old Testament is the shadow and the New Testament is the substance. Christ concealed and then Christ revealed.
If any man be “in Christ” he is a new creature.” This would include all Catholics, Buddists, Monks, painters, pirates, poets and plumbers. Any man is any man. Religious or Barbaric. Any man, any women, any where, for all time. Christ is the center, the compass and the circumference. Christ is the “gold standard” and He is the plumb bob. Not Constatine, not Julius Caesar, not any man. Christianity is Christ. We do not live Torah-centric lives, we live Christ-centric lives. And if we do, we also will live Torah-centric lives because He is the (now) living Word. He will place His Torah,(His Torah) within our hearts. We will know, what is right and we will know what is wrong because He has given unto us (who belong to Him)- the very same Breath that raised Him from the dead. The Ruach HaKodesh lives within every child of G-d. Whether we live in a palace or mud hut, He has given unto each of us- a very present personal trainer to guide us into and unto righteous living. Does this include Torah? (man’s Torah or G-d’s Torah?). We are live according to G-d’s instructions. The ten commandments are only the beginning. Are these included in righteous living? Absolutely. But wait!- There is more. “Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together”- is this a “command” of G-d? Is this part of His instructions? Yes. “Love one another”. Is this a command of YHWH? Yes, it is. Should we “shema?” Yes, we should. Obedience always results in blessing- every time.
One more hidden factor. (and what should be revealed is rapidly becoming hidden). It is this. -The cross of Christ. If I live according to man’s Torah, and keep all the rules, then I will be considered a righteous man by the community I live in. -“What a fine, upstanding moral individual.” What a good man he was,” my neighbors will say. Oh, and I do want everyone to think well of me. So I will keep Torah, that I may be accepted by my community. I do not want to be a lawbreaker- or one of those “sinners.” No way. I want to be “righteous” (or rightly related). If I’m stepping on some toes right now, –then feel the crunch.
When I die and stand before the Righteous Judge, before the LORD of Eternity, do you believe He will produce a set of scales to weigh my good works against my bad? Let’s see how you measure up Carl. Especially compared to the other 100 billion people who have ever lived. Let me see if you are “good enough” to be allowed into my heaven. (A sinless place, BTW). “Carl, have you ever sinned?” -Are you talking to me, LORD? How much sin would keep me out of your heaven?
Well, you see LORD, it’s like this. I have learned to modify my behavior, because I now have this wonderful list of rules to live by and everyone I know thinks I am a good man because I keep all the rules. I don’t even speed in my car anymore and I try not to think bad thoughts about anyone. I vote in all the elections and I don’t litter either. My family and friends all seem to think I am a good man. I know your word says all have sinned, but you see, I have modified my behavior and am not nearly as bad as the rest of “those people.” I really am a pretty good guy, G-d. You should weigh my works -all the good things I have done, and all the good thoughts I had ever thought, against my bad. I’m sure you would find at the end of my life, your scales would tip in my favor, and will have earned my way into your heaven.
“Remember Cain?” uh, yes Lord.. what about Cain? “His offering was unacceptable.” But Lord, he tried so hard and had those vegetables arranged so neatly and orderly- it was a truly beautiful thing he did. Why did you reject such self-effort? “Carl, whose offering was accepted?” Well.. as I can recall, it was Abel’s. “And what did he offer unto me?” It was a blood sacrifice, Lord. “Yes, it was.” And Carl, when I covered Adam and Eve, -what did I cover them with? “It was the skin of an animal, Lord.” Was blood shed for this to happen? “Yes, Lord.” Blood was shed. Carl, this is only the beginning. “Remember the sacrifice of Abraham?” Yes, Lord. “What did he sacrifice to me? “It was the sacrifice you yourself provided. A lamb, as I recall. “Yes, it was a lamb.” -Lord, I remember the lamb.
Oh, but Lord.. (never say these words!). Remember the Lamb that was slain. Yes LORD. (these are two words that are wonderful traveling companions.) “Whatever He says unto you- “do it.” Whatever?- Wow!- that sure is a long list. How is this ever going to happen? It seems we have gone from 10 “commandments” to 613 “tweaked” commandments. (We really do want to get this thing right..) and now we have gone from (a mere) “613 rules for righteous living” to “every word of G-d.” This is quite a task- “bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience Christ.” Is this possible? -“Lord”- (he said weakly), could I get some help with this? “Ask, and you will receive” is His ready reply. “Seek” and you will find. “Knock” and it shall be opened unto you.
Do we, (or do we not) have the Author of this book of books living within us today? How shall we even begin to keep Torah (G-d’s instructions for righteous living), without His help? How is this Help available? Is this Help available for us today?
Constantine or Christ? Great question. “If it seems bad to you to serve ADONAI, then choose today whom you are going to serve! Will it be the gods your ancestors served beyond the River? or the gods of the Emori, in whose land you are living? -As for me and my household, we will serve ADONAI!”
So powerfully written! — — I would like to say to those seeking a group to worship with that observes the ” Sabbath” on the traditional Jewish seventh day, and think that is what is missing in their lives, that I would recommend the Seventh-day- Adventists. They are loacated in many areas and nations; I have three precious Old/New Covenant friends that have been walking with them for numerous years. These people are educated, dedicated sincere Christians that believe the Torah, and all the rest of the 613 rules, and truly try to follow the teachings of all the things mentioned/taught in the teachings of Daily Devotional. Ed and I , did the ‘Bereavement Meal’ in our home, for their mother, preparing for 35 people, when she died four or five years ago, as their church was 35 miles away from the home & her services and burial place were here. Wonderful Godly people truly keeping the Sabbath as the Old Testament observed it.
They are known in most areas now as “The Adventists”. They have several hospitals that were founded by them. Like most hospitals now, Corporations and Groups own them, but in the ones in Central TX they still have pictures and verses from God’s Word on many walls throughout the Hospitals. I have intended to mention them for months, never got around to it. I have a book they gave me, Seventh-day Adventists Believe….27, A Biblical Exposition of Fundamental Doctrines. And as my friend told me about six years ago, there are 613 more. The introduction of the book is gloriously written.—— No, we are not members, but appreciate this group of believers so akin to what Skip wants to teach. Look on line for them in your area. LaVaye -Ed Billings
Christianity is NOT a creed or a code- it is Christ. It is not a list of rules, or rituals. Christianity is NOT a religion,-it is a relationship. Jesus said “I am”. I agree, “He is”. Constantine was so wrong in what he did. (Another in a long line of fallible men). The G-d I pray to, worship and adore, is the very same G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
We are the adopted ones. We are the ones who have been grafted into the Vine. If anyone has been “converted” it is us. The Jews always have been and always will be G-d’s covenant people. But without Christ, they also have no hope. Without Christ, there is no hope, there is no joy, there is no peace, for any man. A Christless life on this side of death will result in a Christless life on the other side of death’s door, for any man. The Messiah has come and deliverance is through Him and Him alone. It is written: -For I am not ashamed of the Good News ,for it is the power of G-d for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Romans 1.16)
Hi Carl,
For me and most of my friends, it was “good news” when Obama came upon the scene.
We felt that after 8 years of war, the creation of enormous debt, and much abuse of power.
We were ready for change.
I would agree that “good news” is not religion; it is information and it is often exaggerated.
In my view, when we move from Mark and Matthew to Luke and John we move away from “news.”
And, in the process, we move away from a “concrete” Jewish worldview.
To what can easily be interpreted as an “abstract” Greek worldview.
We move away from a focus on the Hebrew “Yeshua” toward a focus on the Greek “Christ.”
And, in my view, this movement ends up in a new religion that is not Jewish.
In fact, this new religion can easily be interpreted as anti-Jewish.
oops, some how lost Mark 1:1 “The beginning of the Good News about Jesus Christ…”
“easily be interpreted as an “abstract” Greek worldview.”
Michael
You don’t provide examples of abstractions so it is unclear exactly what you are referring to.
But . .. assuming you have read the NT correctly 🙂 this question arises. Why can’t God use “abstraction” in the “New” Covenant to explain the “Old” Covenant?
“You don’t provide examples of abstractions so it is unclear exactly what you are referring to.”
Hi Ian,
For me, the following passages from John seem very abstract and relatively unclear:
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
On the other hand, Mark paints a pretty clear, concrete, picture IMO:
Mark 1:10 No sooner had he come up out of the water than he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit, like a dove, descending on him.
Mark 1:11 And a voice came out of heaven, “You are my Son, the beloved; my favor rests on you.
Regarding your question about God using abstractions to explain the old covenant, I’m not sure we can explain those kinds of questions.
If we take the two creation stories as examples of concrete vrs abstract, we would say that the first creation story is not as old as the second creation story.
And, as a result, the older creation story, Adam’s rib, is more concrete than the newer story, “male and female” and less sophisticated.
As I understand it, the newer, more abstract creation story was written by priests who were probably very sophisticated, intellectually speaking.
So my point was not that Jews can’t be abstract, it was that in my view the NT tends to become more abstract and less Jewish worldview.
Isn’t it rather difficult to explain John’s comment about drinking the blood of Jesus, in a Jewish worldview?
Pretty much all of John 1 is a midrash on Genesis 1:1…and very Hebraic indeed. In fact, if you’ve ever seen it written in Hebrew, whilst admittedly translated from the Greek it still reads like Hebrew poetry. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if John’s gospel was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek.
We know this to be true (with reasonable certainty, based on linguistic evidence and historical testimony from sources considered by many to be generally reliable) of Matthew’s gospel account; I suspect the same is also true of Mark and John (given their background and target audience) although we don’t have the historical evidence to prove it, only (circumstantial) evidence of linguistic signatures within the text (and these appear even in Luke’s gospel), but “absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence”.
“As I understand it, the newer, more abstract creation story was written by priests who were probably very sophisticated, intellectually speaking.”
Rodney
Which priests? When? What is the literary evidence for this?
“I’m not sure we can explain those kinds of questions.”
Michael
OOPS! My last post was to you, not Rodney. Sorry.
But this statement begs these questions:
Is your comment a universal, true for everyone, “can’t explain those kinds of questions”? If so why.
If it is just your opinion, then it is just your opinion, and no one is obliged to accept it. They may find it interesting, a curiosity, even disagree with it. 🙂 But no obligation to accept it as a truth. 🙂
“So my point was not that Jews can’t be abstract, it was that in my view the NT tends to become more abstract and less Jewish worldview.”
Michael
Rodney has already made this point: has the NT been correctly interpreted?
The Scriptures will always be interpreted by some foundational principles – presuppositions.
So the question becomes: Are our presuppositions the right ones, and how do we know?
Until that question is answered correctly and people agree with the presuppositions, disagreements will continue.
Not sure about this? Read Prov. 1:7 (or 9:10) and see also Luke 16:19-31. Understanding Torah and the Prophets comes first. When you understand Torah and Prophets, you have the Hebrew mind. There is no other way to get it. Without it, “facts” such as people rising from the dead, have no meaning. In other words, you cannot argue “facts” and eventually conclude the truths of Scripture. You begin with Scripture in order to give everything meaning. There’s no other way possible.
Psalm 36:9 – “In your light, we see light.” His light comes first, not second, or third. If He is not first, it is idolatry.
We should allow ourselves to become epistemological idolatrists.
“Regarding your question about God using abstractions to explain the old covenant, I’m not sure we can explain those kinds of questions.”
“”Is your comment a universal, true for everyone, “can’t explain those kinds of questions”? If so why.””
Hi Ian,
As far as I know, it is universally true, because we cannot prove the existence of God in the first place.
Therefore, it is logically impossible to PROVE how God is using “abstractions.”
Abstractions tend to be used by the highly educated people in societies.
The picture we have of Adam, Eve, the Snake, and Yahweh is not very abstract.
When the story was written down, it retained its very simple, primitive form.
We don’t see much “embellishment” of the text.
But the first creation story was probably written down much later.
It is a very abstract, almost systematic, view of the image of God in human form.
In my Bible, the footnote refers to this passage as coming from the “priestly source.”
For me this kind of language and style is very similar to that found in the Talmud.
“We should allow ourselves to become epistemological idolatrists.”
“because we cannot prove the existence of God in the first place.”
‘Therefore, it is logically impossible to PROVE how God is using “abstractions.”’
Michael
The sentence above SHOULD have been:
“We should NOT let ourselves become epistemological idolatrists?
Now to your statements.
What constitutes proof? Scientific proof? That makes the idea of truth depend upon our measuring devices. Not such a good idea!
But what about Scriptural proof?
You see, the ONLY way to get out of the epistemological nightmare that is created by all non-biblical presuppositions, is to accept that the ONLY way you can “disprove” God is by assuming the truths of Scripture in the first place. Because no other assumptions (presuppositions) allow you to make any claims about right and wrong, what’s true or false. Period.
THAT is what Scripture teaches. I already gave you some references.
Any other proof would require the mind of man to be the determiner of what is true or false. Back to Genesis 3:5. This is the “sin” problem. This is the core of idolatry, to “be like God” determining for ourselves what is true or false, right or wrong.
Therefore, to you last quote: the question is this one: On which set of presuppositions is it impossible to prove how God is using abstractions.
How do you know you have the right assumptions to make this statement? How were these assumptions developed? And what is the basis for the assumptions so the charge of “arbitrariness” can be avoided?
Get the idea? Presuppositions (assumptions) are the key. 🙂
“But what about Scriptural proof?”
Hi Ian,
We are given the freedom to choose whether we want to believe Scripture or not.
Our faith is based upon the choice we make to be obedient to God.
But Scripture cannot prove the existence of God.
“But Scripture cannot prove the existence of God.”
Michael,
Why not?
Michael,
I have to disagree with you about Luke and John (especially John). The gospel of John is among the most Jewish of all the “NT” writings – it is just the western/Greek interpretation and slant that has been put on it by the Christian church that gives the opposite impression.
Towards the end of his gospel John states that he wrote it to show that Yeshua was the “Lamb of God”. In order to do this, he has to show Jesus keeping Torah and going up to Jerusalem for each of the Feasts of YHVH as required by the Torah. He does so, but the translators/redactors have done us a great disservice by making every Feast (with the exception of Hanukkah) a Passover and in later Greek manuscripts even inserting verses that don’t appear in the earliest known manuscripts.
BTW, changing every feast mentioned in John to a Passover is necessary to support a 3-1/2 year ministry of Yeshua on earth (an invention of the RC church). If, in fact, John shows Yeshua going up to Jerusalem for each feast in turn, that means that His ministry would only be 70 weeks from His baptism (mikveh) in the Jordan river by Yochanan ben Zacharia (John the Baptist) to the Holy Spirit being poured out at Pentecost (Shavuot), with His crucifixion being 62.5 weeks after His baptism (“After 62 weeks, in the midst of the week, the Prince shall be cut off, but not for Himself…”).
“later Greek manuscripts even inserting verses that don’t appear in the earliest known manuscripts. ”
Hi Rodney,
You may be correct but, to draw an analogy with a computer program, isn’t that kind of like saying:
“it’s a really good program, but it has been corrupted so badly that the computer can’t process it anymore?”
And how do we explain John 6:53:
Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you”
John 6:53 does not seem very Jewish to me and even if it is, the image certainly does not appeal to me.
On the other hand, as a boy I found Holy Communion to be a meaningful, spiritual, experience.
Rather it is very Jewish (it must be – it is written by a Jewish talmiyd about his Rabbi speaking to his talimidiym); we just have to stop trying to interpret it literally, put it back into its cultural and linguistic context and understand the idioms used.
I’m not claiming to be an expert on this, and I would welcome input as to the idioms used here (although I have some ideas, I need to do further research), but I have figured out this much: Yeshua could not have been speaking about literally eating flesh and drinking blood, because that would have clearly been against Torah (esp. the prohibition from consumption of blood) since the nefesh (the “life”) is in the blood although, perhaps, therein lies a clue to the real meaning…
Actually if we are going to use a computer analogy it is probably more like a program that has been infected by a virus (or perhaps a trojan horse is a better term). It needs to be cleaned of the infection before it can be executed lest it infect other processes along the way…;-)
Hi Rodney,
I have read through all your comments several times and would like to reply in general.
First let me say that I don’t disagree with the points you are making.
And I find your arguments very compelling.
At the same time, in general, when I read John’s opener “In the beginning was the Word.”
The tone is set for the abstract arguments to come, at least for me.
If I understand it correctly, these abstract “Jewish” arguments are called Midrash.
Now I have been reading a bit of Everyman’s Talmud lately.
And am continually reminded of the Catholic culture of my youth.
A lot of the Talmud seems like “common knowledge” to me.
A lot of this Midrash became part of the general belief system of my generation.
Or so it seems.
So when I read or listen to John Dominic Crossan on TV, I respond to his passion.
What I seem to share with Crossan is his sense that there is a profound difference.
A difference between the Old Testament and Mark on the one hand.
And the rest of the New Testament and Catholicism on the other.
To return to your “program with a virus” metaphor and the program (NT) with the virus.
Maybe most folks should just use the old program until we eliminate the NT virus?
Michael
Psalm 36:9 “For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light.”
Isn’t that some kind of abstraction? An “Older “Covenant one? 🙂
Back to the question: Why can’t God use NT abstractions to explain OT theology? He seems to do this in the OT anyway.
“Isn’t that some kind of abstraction? An “Older “Covenant one?”
Hi Ian,
I think there is a sense in which all language is an abstraction.
But for me Psalm 36:9 is not very abstract as a metaphor for God.
“For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light.”
I see a fountain with water and light in the water; it could be partly concrete 🙂
“But for me Psalm 36:9 is not very abstract as a metaphor for God.”
According to your understanding, What’s the difference between an abstraction and a metaphor? And how do you determine that this passage in Psa. 36:9 is one and not the other? 🙂
“What’s the difference between an abstraction and a metaphor?”
“And how do you determine that this passage in Psalm 36:9 is one and not the other?”
Hi Ian,
Good question.
It’s been a while since I’ve thought about these things from a technical perspective.
So let’s start with some practical definitions:
– Abstract terms refer to ideas or concepts; they have no physical referents
– Concrete terms refer to objects or events that are available to the senses
Roman Jakobson defines metaphor and metonymy as related “rhetorical figures:”
– Metaphor represents a procedure of substitution by “similarity” (heart = soul)
– Metonymy represents a procedure of substitution by “contiguity” (sail = boat)
Umberto Eco explains metaphor with the following example :
In the 12th century, and can substitute for each other because they both connote
Thus the “dogs of God” becomes the metaphor for the Dominicans, an order of mendicant friars.
Please bear with me here, while I digress, it will be related to my point, I think.
Last night my wife called and asked me stop by Frye’s on my way over to Great America to pick up my daughter.
She wants to switch services in my condo from Comcast to AT&T and I so needed a wireless “endpoint” from Netgear.
When I walked into Frye’s, to my surprise, the first thing I saw was a DVD of The Professionals.
And it was on sale at a giveaway price, so I bought for my collection.
If you recall, the most important character in The Professionals is Jesus Raza.
And in the end, Burt Lancaster (the professional) rides out of the desert in a cloud of dust.
Together with Jesus Raza (the revolutionary), whom he is saving.
To be reunited with his “heart and soul,” Claudia Cardinale.
And Lee Marvin (the team captain) refers to them as a “Whirling Dervish.”
Coming back to the question of what is a metaphor?
Seems to me that in The Professionals we have a little “string theory” of metaphors.
Hero = Jesus = revolutionary = lover = heart = soul = Whirling Dervish
If you recall, I mentioned some time ago how the Whirling Dervish was related to Sufi mystics.
And to the Persian letter “dar,” which signifies “door” if I recall correctly.
And dar seems to be related to the Hebrew letter “dalet,” which signifies door as well.
But door is not just a metaphor in my mind.
A door can also function as a gateway to another place; and a kind of “metonymy.”
I like to think of this part/whole function of door in terms of the gate at the OK Corral.
Or, in Hombre, the Dalet of the corral where John Russell leads his horses to safety.
Of course, in addition to safety, Dalet opens the way to Mem (water).
Which brings us back to Psalm 36:9.
While I think we we can say in everyday language that the light is a metaphor for God.
That light = God.
Technically speaking it might be more appropriate to say that light is a sign of God.
As language, light, cement, and water are part of the whole “spiritual universe.”
But can we really substitute these words for God?
Theologically speaking I don’t think so.
oops seem to have lost part fo the following sentence:
In the 12th century, and can substitute for each other because they both connote
okay, the system is not accepting some special characters and so is delete text between them
“Theologically speaking I don’t think so.”
Hi Michael,
My previous question was “how do you know it is metaphor and not abstraction”
You’ve given some interesting definitions. You even made a conclusion (Greek? :)) and said “I don’t think so”.
But my question is really more fundamental, and, being Australian I like to repeat myself — this is an epistemological issue. What do we know, how do we know it, and how can we be sure we have the right knowledge?.”
You have provided definitions and conclusions, and as they stand at present, these are your opinions. But what is the basis for both issues: the definitions as being the right ones, and your conclusion as being the right and necessary conclusion? 🙂
“That light = God.”
Michael
In order for this conclusion (Greek, again :)), wouldn’t the text in Psa. 36:9 have to say “In light we see light”?
But it doesn’t. It says in “your light” we see light. Here, the word “light” does not = God. The word “your” is a pronoun and that = God.
So is the light of God a metaphor or an abstraction? Or both? And the answer to those questions will depend on the definitions we give to our words.
Back to that inescapable issue of epistemology again. Sorry. 🙂
“these are your opinions.”
Hi Ian,
In my view, most everything I write is just an opening argument or an opinion.
I began by saying “that is a good question,” meaning I don’t have the answers.
Then quickly wrote down my thoughts on the subject in a rush with way too many errors. My apologies.
The thoughts I share tend to have deep meaning to me, but like a dream might not mean much to others.
Eco and Jakobson are giants in their field of study so I began with some of their basic concepts.
In linguistics there are different schools of thought, but I like the little I know of their structural and semiotic approaches.
Back in 1974, I had the great good fortune of attending an undergraduate seminar taught by Umberto Eco.
In those days he was known in the US for his pop cultural criticism of James Bond.
And then later for his novel Name of the Rose.
Which coincidentally has a metonymical connection to the name of Skip’s wife, if I’m not mistaken 🙂
And like Skip, Eco also wrote his PhD dissertation on Thomas Aquinas.
When it comes to the Psalm, I don’t really know its author, history, or language.
It is a beautiful poem and it inspires thoughts that are interesting to me 🙂
Epistemologically speaking, I don’t think poetry is really intended to give us knowledge.
IMO it is intended to give us an aesthetic experience of the good, the true, or the beautiful.
To correct one of my earlier errors…
“Dog” and “friar” both connote “fidelity”; dogs defend their masters and friars defend their religious principles.
“Constantine was so wrong”
Carl,
What did Constantine do that was so wrong?
Right on, Carl. Jews do not need to convert, they need to be redeemed (accomplished by Yeshua) and restored (in process). Gentiles can’t be redeemed, because they’ve never been in covenant and then out of covenant. Gentiles need to be converted and joined to the covenant. If they then fall out of covenant, they can be redeemed and restored. Our definitions need reviewing :-).
The Jews are still in covenant with God (or rather, He is in covenant with them) – the sign of this is that they’re back in the land (which is the dowry of the Bride).
BTW, once we are converted we are no longer Gentiles, but fellow citizens with Israel and heirs to the covenants of promise (as Paul told us). “You who once were gentiles….”; if I was once a gentile, that implies that am no longer a gentile (which means “one outside the covenant”).
Incidentally, when Yeshua said, “You are the salt of the earth…” what did He mean? In the scriptures salt represents covenant, so that could be rendered, “You are the covenant of the earth (eretz – land)”.
There is something else that He is referring to, though. On the altar in the Temple they had 3 fires and a huge pile of salt. THe salt was used to salt the sacrifices (a sign of the covenant). When it had “lost its savour” it was thrown onto the ramp leading up to the altar to make sure that the priests did not slip on the ramp whilst carrying the sacrifices up to the altar (and thus, literally, it was “thrown out and trampled underfoot”. Yeshua was referring directly to the temple service – yet another example of a Rabbi using a familiar, physical thing that made perfect sense in the culture of the day to illustrate a deeper principle.
Shabbat Shalom :-).
gentile- (which means “one outside the covenant”).
“For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by G-d for us to do. Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth – called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised – at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra’el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God’s promise. You were in this world without hope and without G-d. But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. For He himself is our shalom – He has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom and in order to reconcile to G-d both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity. Also, when He came, He announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, news that through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with G-d’s people and members of God’s family. You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. In union with Him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord. Yes, in union with Him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for G-d!
Thanks Carl,
You’re love for G-d is so powerful and all consuming. God has blessed you with an amazing gift of ENERGY (that keeps on going) to express that love!!
I was very blessed by your comments today. I’m glad you went back and posted on Wednesday’s “Community ID,” even though it Thursday. 🙂
oops. Grammar check.
I meant “your love” NOT “you’re love”
For me and most of my friends, it was “good news” when Obama came upon the scene.
We felt that after 8 years of war, the creation of enormous debt, and much abuse of power.
We were ready for change.
-And Michael,- how’s that “change” workin’ out for you? -Listen again, for the first time to this from G-d’s Word- “there is no wisdom, nor understanding, nor counsel against YHWH.” (Proverbs 21.30) and again from Psalm 127.1-“Unless ADONAI builds the house, its builders work in vain. Unless ADONAI guards the city, the guard keeps watch in vain.”
Allow me to say from the “git-go”, right out of the gate,-I despise politics. I despise and yes, abhor, all who use authority to manipulate the masses. I don’t care whether you are red or blue, -the question we all should be asking is: “who is on the LORD’s side?” (and please believe me when I say G-d is not a Republican, -neither is He a democrat,- He is LORD. Is there anyone left who has a clue what this means? Where is the fear of the LORD? I fear, for many,- it is gone.
So Michael, (and others..)- “Who will save us?” “I will lift up mine eyes unto Capitol Hill from whence cometh my help”- my help comes from Congress to save me.” I must pause here for the retching taking place within my soul. -Gag me with a maggot. You think the answer is found in politicians and power? If only we elect the right people to rule over us, all will be well. (silent scream in progress………..puh-lease.)
We don’t need a red state and neither do we need a blue. We need a white state. We need purity and holiness before our G-d. (I’m just beginning to grasp the meaning of the word- “oy!”) and also this verse from G-d’s book is standing out from the page- “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6.12). -Open our eyes Adonai, and until you do, we are clueless. Amen.
I’ll say this again. I despise politics. What ever happened to “public servants?” Who are these kings and queens reigning today? These master manipulators, speaking great swelling words of emptiness? Promise them anything- sell them anything- no one recognizes truth anymore. Snake oil,-only a dollar! And aren’t we lined up to buy it? Who are these people who we ourselves have empowered to spend ourselves into oblivion?
The heart of Y’shua is a servant’s heart. How far, how far we have fallen. Adonai, we are blind in one eye and we can’t see out of the other. Truly you are our greatest threat and our only hope. Amen.
Just thinking and speaking of these things,- I’m headed for a hot shower. Filth. Capitol Hill is a pigsty.
Has America become an Obama-nation? “Religion and politics”-“what’s that smell? and where’s the soap?- lol! One question: -Who is on the LORD’s side? (not red, not blue,- white). And does the American flag ever need a trip to the laundry.
Carl Roberts – you are a man after God/Jesus/Holy Spirit’s heart – your passion & truth are straight from HIS/Their heart(s) – if only all men are where you are in their life/walk – this earth would be a much better place for it – but the Kingdom is coming & I say stop trying to stop it & lets all usher it on in with prayer & fasting – COME QUICKLY LORD JESUS… ♥