Unforgivable
and also for the innocent blood that he shed; for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the Lord would not pardon. 2 Kings 24:4 (Hebrew World)
Would not pardon – What is the unforgivable sin? Most Christians would say, “Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit,” citing Yeshua’s remark in Matthew 12. That incident summarizes an ethical reversal of values that displays idolatrous attitudes. It takes time to develop. There is, however, a single act, a moment of violence, that God does not forgive. At least this appears to be the case in the story of Manasseh. That act is the shedding of innocent blood. Manasseh may have prayed to be forgiven, but the Hebrew text says that God would not listen. The phrase is lo-avah. The negative particle (lo) is very strong. It is the same negative particle that precedes the Ten Commandments. “It is never the case that” is the sense of it. The verb, ‘avah, means “to be willing, to consent, to yield, to be positively inclined.” If you thought that God was always ready to forgive, then this verse will be a real stumbling block. God will not forgive the shedding of innocent blood. Payment must be made.
It’s quite instructive that the LXX alters this verse to read “the Lord did not want to be conciliated.” Did you catch the subtle shift? In Hebrew the verse declares that God will not forgive. His justice demands His refusal. He chooses not to overlook this heinous crime. But in the Greek LXX, the implication is that God doesn’t want to forgive – but He still could. In the LXX, the issue is God’s struggle with what He wants to do (not forgive) and what He could do (forgive). There is no struggle in Hebrew. God absolutely will not forgive this offense. The offender cannot receive remission of this sin. He must die.
I realize that this divine resistance is out of character with our cultural characterization of YHWH, but I am afraid that we are the ones who are misinformed, not God. His retaliation against such acts is a constant theme of Scripture (cf. Jeremiah 19:4, Psalm 106:38, Joel 3:19, Proverbs 6:17, Psalm 94:21, Deuteronomy 21:8ff). This is especially troublesome in a world that is convinced capital punishment is morally wrong. Who decided that? Certainly not YHWH! One wonders if the Church’s idea of the all-forgiving God didn’t have some ameliorating effect on YHWH’s requirement for justice.
Most sins can be forgiven. Some cannot. Does this mean some people have acted in such terrible ways that they cannot find reconciliation? I don’t think so. After all, there is David. If any king deserved punishment for the shedding of innocent blood, it was David. Yet God forgave. But someone had to pay. Usually the one who pays is the one who perpetrates the crime. In David’s exceptional case, the one who paid was the child. There are times when any attempt to understand the mind of the Lord seems beyond us, aren’t there? Here’s what we know. God avenges innocent blood. May that blood never touch our hands in any way!
Topical Index: lo-avah, would not pardon, Manasseh, David, 2 Kings 24:4, innocent blood
“But someone had to pay?”
Innocent bloodshed – innocent child paying for that. Measure for measure?
Isn’t abortion innocent bloodshed? Am I guilty if I haven’t DONE something to stop it, or will I be forgiven if I only disagree silently?
To me, the new name for “the visible Hand of God” is “natural disasters” like sunami’s, earthquakes. In Bible times it was called plaques, droughts and going on a 40 year tour of the wilderness. Surely in those times the innocent paid the price with the guilty, same as now(sunami’s)?
Am I as innocent of innocent bloodshed as I would like to think? What is my country’s abortion rate and what have I done about it? Ignorance does not make me innocent.
Don’t think I have done enough to stop innocent bloodshed.
“But someone had to pay. Usually the one who pays is the one who perpetrates the crime. In David’s exceptional case, the one who paid was the child.”
This seems so simple I must be missing something basic–I thought the price was paid on the Cross–that should have been me and it should have been you. Forgiveness was obtained through payment with the blood of Jesus.
Also, is there such a thing as “innocent blood”? If so, who has it (other than Jesus)? How do you reconcile it with Romans 3:10-12?
“There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” (Romans 3:10-12)
I’ve heard it said, bad things don’t happen to good people because there are no good people. Along the same lines, Keller has observed Abraham never goes below “10 righteous” in pleading for Sodom. You would think the next logical step is “One” (would you destroy one righteous person). Keller suggests that Abraham didn’t go there because he was afraid that there wasn’t even one–not even Lot.
Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Just a quick reply on “innocent” blood while I think about the rest. It seems obvious to me that an unborn fetus qualifies as innocent blood. The only way you can argue otherwise is to accept the doctrine of sinful nature which I reject on both historical and theological grounds. Therefore, abortion is the taking of innocent blood. I am not prepared to say that aborted human beings are neither human nor innocent. Could any Christian be comfortable proclaiming that the unborn deserve to die because they were guilty anyway?
More on the Christocentric viewpoint later, as time permits.
Is a 1-minute-old baby innocent? 1-hour-old? 1-day-old? 1-week-old? 1-month-old? 6-month-old? 1-year-old? Where does “sin” come in?
Hard to imagine there were not at least 10 young babies or even 10 pregnant women with unborn fetuses in Sodom.
Yes, and maybe Abraham should have made that point. One significant difference between Christian and Jewish views on this subject is that Christians have generally accepted the Augustinian-Lutheran view of sin and its inherent nature while Jews have associated sin with behavior and accountability. The implications and historical consequences are enormous for each view.
Good points, Luzette and Paul. I’m interested to see Skip’s responses.
So this leaves me with the somewhat obvious question: What about current military campaigns? Who pays for all the innocent blood when the ship fires its cannons into a city? The captain? The person who loads the cannon? The person who pulls the trigger?
What about abortion clinics? Who pays? The mother, the father, the doctor?
What about pharmaceutical companies that purposely suppress data that confirms that some will have that nasty side effect of death for the treatment of a non terminal condition, who pays?
Mercy upon us all.
Yes, mercy is the only solution. And that does not depend on us. No wonder the rabbis pray that God’s mercy will outweigh His wrath. In a theology that puts all the emphasis on forgiveness, do you think that we have become immune to the enormity of our crimes?
This is how I see it: yes, the price for me, the repenting sinner, was paid by Yeshua, the Lamb of YHWH sacrifice. This price rescues me from eternal death, but the consequences of my sin do not magically disappear( the example: Girl falls pregnant. She repents but is still stuck with a baby 9 months later. That’s if she does not have an abortion(with those consquences). But if I kill the innocent, I will not be forgiven and will pay(atonement). YHWH already has one sin that is unforgivable, why not have more?
So I too need to know who the innocent is.
Even if the people Manasseh killed were not innocent before YHWH, may be they were innocent in relations to himself(Manasseh). If this is true, then this verse has even more implications, for how many innocent people( in relation to myself,now) have I killed with the tongue (slander or gossip)?
May be there are no real innocent people according to YHWH’s standards, but to me a child or a baby, is as innocent as you get. Are you willing to argue that all the kids being molested, used in children armies, sold as prostitutes deserve what is happening to them. Someone is guilty of killing their spirits. And YHWH says that that is unforgivable! Somehow, someone will pay. And even if YHWH forgives, if it is not the killer himself that pays the price, someone does.
What about the sins of the fathers and the bloodline theory? David’s child paid the price,bloodline?
On another note, something controversial. it is becoming evident to me that the Torah is the knowledge of good and evil. It started in the Garden probably when it was not good for Adam to be alone (first mention of not good), then the choice to actually know good and evil and to experience the consequences of making choices between the two. The garden seems to be a rich metaphor of our origins and what transpired to bring us to the human condition as we know it and what we are returning to through Yeshua. Look at Romans 4:15 “because the Torah (knowledge of good and evil and subsequent actions) brings about wrath; for where there is no Torah (idyllic time in paradise garden) no transgression.”
Robin, I respectfully disagree with the premise that Torah is “the knowledge of good and evil”. Torah was given before the fall. It had one clear instruction – “Don’t eat from that tree!”. Torah is from the root word yarah which means “to cast forth as rain” or “to shoot straight as an arrow”. Torah itself means basically “teaching and instructions”.
What do you suppose Adam and YHVH talked about as they walked in the garden “in the cool of the day”? Perhaps, YHVH giving Adam “teaching and instructions” as to how to fulfill the purpose for which he was created?
The Torah provides the standard by which actions are judged. Without the standard, there can be no judgement because there is nothing to judge against. If a builder builds a house to a plan with no measurements specified on it, how can one judge if the house is built correctly, to the right dimensions? No measurements means that the builder is free to choose his own. He does “what is right in his own eyes”. The architect cannot judge if the builder has done it correctly, because he didn’t specify the standards.
This is the point of Romans 4:15. The gentiles coming into the faith in Rome were holding themselves to a different standard than the established Jewish community, and this was causing division and rejection of the new believers by the established authorities. Sha’ul is making the point that Torah is necessary not just for the Jews, but for the non-Jewish believers also, to set the standards for living harmoniously in the community and so, by setting an appropriate example and living in a manner “approved by God and man” to “provoke the Jews to jealousy” and be able to share with them the truth of Yeshua as the Hebrew Messiah. Not to “evangelize” as the “church” tries to do today, telling them that all they need to do is “accept Jesus as saviour, then they can forget about the Law”, which to any observant Jew is an affront and an offense.
I should add that a Hebrew euphemism for the Torah is “the tree of life”. The “pages” of the scroll are known as “leaves” and the axles on which the scroll is rolled (is “axles” the right term??) are known as the “branches”.
John was Jewish, remember? He understood and used Hebrew euphemisms in his writing. It is instructive to do a search for all the verses containing the phrase “tree of life” on Blue Letter Bible (or your favourite Bible search tool). Try substituting the word “Torah” for “tree of life” and see if they make sense. It doesn’t work with all of them, but here’s one that could:
פְּֽרִי־צַדִּיק עֵץ חַיִּים וְלֹקֵחַ נְפָשֹׂות חָכָֽם
Peri tzaddik ets chayim v’locheh nepheshiym lacham.
“The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever is wise wins souls”. The fruit of the righteous is Torah – the righteous will bear the works of Torah as fruit – and whoever is wise (i.e. bearing the fruit of Torah) will win souls.
“a Hebrew euphemism for the Torah is “the tree of life””
Hi Rodney,
That’s very interesting, I didn’t know that (and feel a little foolish).
I always wondered why Juniper Networks chose a tree for a logo.
Compared to Cisco’s SF bridge (Ocean) and Foundry’s ServerIron switches (Fire)
The Tree did not seem very cool to me.
But now it does.
It seems to me that the shedding of innocent blood by Manasseh is similar to what we are seeing today in the news where dictators are randomly murdering their own citizens…shooting them in the streets…entering their homes and shooting down families, including children and babies. People undeserving of such treatment and caught off guard with no way to protect themselves. People that have not committed crimes. Just randomly killed while going about their way. Innocent blood also reminds me of Cain killing Able and YHWH hearing Able’s blood calling him from the earth. We don’t have the right to murder others. This also makes me think of drive-by shootings, and school shootings and serial killing.
In the case of abortion…what if the crime was committed through ignorance to the fact that the situation would “grow” into a baby after x number of time. In the 70’s, the “counseling” available at community health clinics was such that lead the unsuspecting and petrified girls/women believing that what was inside up until 12 weeks was just tissue matter, that would eventually become a baby.
I don’t think much has changed until very recently with the prolife movement presenting the truth through undeniable biological information and very convincing pictures with ultrasound. Children who were not raised with any spiritual compass back then, is this an unpardonable sin for them? Is there no odpportunity for salvation for them?
This presents quite the issue, over grace and Law doesn’t it? This should cause us to take a long prayerful look at why there are as many “sinners saved by grace” still sinning and still thinking they are ok. No Law, no conviction, no sin right? We need to rethink this, church.
In another view, maybe what is happening with the judicial system and culture today is the measure for measure of how we interpret(ed) and theologized/rationalized YHWH’s commands.
Although I do not agree with all the sensual indulgences of the hippies in their heyday, I can certainly understand their rebellion to the status quo at that point in history. They only acted out in public what was going on in secret, in homes, churches and politics. YHWH remember mercy!
If any king deserved punishment for the shedding of innocent blood, it was David. Yet God forgave.
Hi Skip,
Do we really know if God forgave David? Or Paul? Seems to me that we are responsible for what we do and have done.
How would we know if God forgave us?
I love making people think. And nothing is better for that than causing us to reconsider traditionally held, but probably not carefully conceived, beliefs. We start by taking God at His word. If He says He will not forgive, then there is no use trying to reinterpret the statement to fit our theology. We have to build our theology around what it says, not what we want it to say. Of course, one verse doesn’t make a doctrine, but one verse cannot be shoved aside either.
I suggest the following: God will NOT forgive the shedding of innocent blood. This means that He will not alter the consequences so that the nature punishment associated with such crimes is circumvented. Manasseh must pay with his life. Now punishment is not the same as guilt. Guilt can be forgiven, but forgiveness does not always set aside the consequences and in this case, God explicitly says that removing the guilt WILL NOT set aside the expected punishment. Manasseh must die. David might have had his guilt removed, but the consequences still proceeded. Thus so with abortion and the other slaughter of innocents. God will avenge them. Does that make you wonder if America the Great, political perpetrator of 50 million aborted innocents, should not expect reprisals?
Hebrew thought certainly draws a distinction between forensic guilt and actual punishment. We need to do the same. Otherwise, the God who forgives is a God who is not just.
Michael,- these are the words of David: “Of David. A maskil. Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.” (Psalm 32.1)
These are the words of Carl: “I (too) am that man!” Call me “blessed!” -He has forgiven me.
It is written: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1.9)
I (too) have prayed this prayer: “Father, forgive me for I have sinned..”
“But God has demonstrated His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5.8)
“Of David. A maskil. Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.” (Psalm 32.1)
Hi Carl,
I’m currently at work without The Jerusalem Bible, documenting a computer network command called “max-authentication-failures” (before the user is “blacklisted” as a security threat).
So I can’t verify my interpretation and am just going to respond off the “top of my head” to one of my favorite “maskils” of David.
I’m guessing that David is thinking about folks like you; saintly guys, who have never considered shedding the blood of innocents, but does not consider himself as one of the “blessed.”
Of course David had a very close relationship with Yahweh, but as I recall David suffered a great deal right up until the end of his life and his only relief came when he turned to Yahweh.
–Not to “evangelize” as the “church” tries to do today, telling them that all they need to do is “accept Jesus as saviour, then they can forget about the Law”, which to any observant Jew is an affront and an offense.–
Rodney.. just to let you know- there is one (dare I say evangelistic?) Christian out there (I’m sure there are others) who in no way believes once we are “saved” we may live as we choose or even think about forgetting the “law of the LORD.” “The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple..,” etc. “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?” And what about- “be ye holy, for I am holy?” No, -I do believe in “once saved, always saved, but as I now have G-d as my Father, (we are called the sons of G-d), there is no way I may sin with impunity. I really don’t think my Father would like it very much and I know it not only cause me great harm, but my family, co-workers, and community as well. None of us lives and dies to themselves. We each influence many others- either positively or negatively. I have seen too much of the scars of sin, both personally and in close friends to want to continue in sin. If you claim to be Abba’s child and still want to sin, I would do some seriously soul-searching. What are the consequences of sin? Here are but a few: death, defeat, dispair,discouragement, doubt and disease. Sin can never win and faith cannot fail. As witnessed in the life of Yeshua- obedience is “where it’s at!” Again, (it is written) “if you love me, keep my commandments!”
“…just to let you know- there is one (dare I say evangelistic?) Christian out there (I’m sure there are others) who in no way believes once we are “saved” we may live as we choose or even think about forgetting the “law of the LORD.”
Amen, and I am honoured to be able to call you brother (although we have never met in person). YHVH bless you and yours today and every day. 🙂 Shalom.
This is an important message. A person who sheds innocent blood must pay with his mortal life but he will still be forgiven, if he truly repents, so that his soul will be saved, correct? Or is this saying that God will not forgive a person who sheds innocent blood and his mortal and immortal life will be lost? I believe that it’s the former but I want to be clear on this issue. If it’s the latter then I think you’re interpretation may be in error.
I really get a lot out of your daily messages. Thank you.
May God continue to bless you, your family and your work.
Being one that is responsible for shedding innocent blood (2 abortions)this message really hit home for me. I have shed many tears over my past actions and continue to shed them. I know what I did was wrong and was murder and I have been on my knees and on my face repenting for it. I do believe I am forgiven for as His word says if we repent and ask for forgiveness He will forgive us and that Yeshua died for us so that if we believe we would be forgiven, thus my “guilt” is removed. I also believe that I must be punished for my sin. What this punishment is I do not know. Nor do I know if it was already renedered or if not when. Was the punishment that a part of me (emotionally and spiritually) is dead and I carry it around with me daily, especially when I look into the faces of my two children. I don’t know. However I do know that I have given it into His hands and I will accept His punishment whatever and whenever it is given.
Hi Tim,
It touches my heart to hear a man talk about the guilt of abortion. It seems as though, although men are as responsible (it DOES take two!), they suffer little to no emotional consequence for having committed this atrocity. I must shamefully admit that I too am guilty of having shed innocent blood through abortion. Even before accepting the work of Christ on the cross for removing my guilt, when I became pregnant again and actually wanted the baby, I was TORTURED, thinking God would bring the punishment I deserved on my baby. I was OBSESSED with haunting thoughts of whether my baby would die or have some sort of birth defect, because if what I had done.
For a long, long time after the abortions, I suffered miserably through YEARS of depression and shame. After reading this message today, I was freshly reminded of my sin; I will never be able to run from the pain of having murdered such precious gifts, but know I too am forgiven, having repented and trusting in the work that Christ accomplished for a wretch like me. I think that the suffering to the point of being almost suicidal, could have been part of the punishment, but only He knows.
This is a scourge on the US, and shows the idol we have built around sensuality and sex. We have exchanged the truth of God (the beauty of sex within the boundary of marriage established by YHWH) for a lie and I do believe part of the judgment we are facing morally, politically, financially, and of course, spiritually here is, in part, due to this sin of shedding innocent blood.
The good news is, He blessed me tremendously with a wonderful gift and I gave birth to a beautiful and gifted child 25 years ago. I am so thankful for YHWH’s tender mercy and grace to forgive. It is His kindness that led me to repentance, and the love He lavishes on me, has lifted me many times. Praise forever to the Almighty Elohim of Israel!
It sounds as though we have experienced this great love of the One who loved us before we loved Him. I appreciate your honesty and transparency, although personally, I still have great difficulty talking about this face to face with others. Blessed is the Set apart Name and those who love Him!
Shalom, Tim.
Shalom brothers and sisters,
What about Judas Iscariot? Would Yeshua have forgiven Him if he would have repented? Matthew 26:24, The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had never been born.
Yeshua speaks a woe, and been better if he had never been born. This is very strong language!
Amen, Brian. Excellent word study (for the future?) brother Skip. “Woe.” This word would be at the extreme opposite end of “blessed.”
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. (Isaiah 5.20) This reminds me of another word, “iniquity” or twistedness. How could anyone ever call or say “evil” is good? or “good” is evil? We don’t have to look very far, do we? “And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (Matthew 24.12)
“How could anyone ever call or say “evil” is good? or “good” is evil? We don’t have to look very far, do we? ”
Too true, Carl – just watch the news. It is people like you and me, who desire to live set-apart lives, who desire to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to come into covenant with Israel, who are (and will continue to be) blamed for all of the evil currently in the world (by the world, of course, not by YHVH). We are the cause of the problems in the Middle East, the uprisings in the Arab nations, the reason for Israel’s existence (which in itself is an affront to the doctrines of Islam[1]). We’re also the source of all the problems in our society, because we are bigoted, extremist, hateful people who insist on telling others how to live their lives!! That is how they see us anyway. The US State Department is terrified of people who believe Bible prophecy and say so openly (and it doesn’t stop in the USA either). Believe me, brother, things are going to get worse (a lot worse) before they get better. Sorry to be so pessimistic but, after all, that is what the Scriptures clearly say.
[1] The Koran teaches that once a land is in Muslim hands it is waqf forever. The very existence of the nation of Israrel on land that was previously controlled by Muslims proves the Koran wrong. Is it any wonder that Muslims the world over are so determined to destroy Israel?
Oh dear family! How blessed, how blessed we are to be called the sons (and daughters) of the King! Our G-d reigns! Blessed, blessed hope! When has YHWH ever forsaken those who belong to Him? When, (please tell me when) He has ever abandoned those who call upon His name? Never, no never! “I (too) have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread..”
Thy bountiful care what tongue can recite?
It breathes in the air, it shines in the light,
It streams from the hills, it descends to the plain,
And sweetly distills in the dew and the rain.
Frail children of dust, and feeble as frail,
In Thee do we trust, nor find Thee to fail;
Thy mercies how tender! how firm to the end!
Our Maker, Defender, Redeemer, and Friend.
He does want to make you burst forth into jublilant song, this (always) Victorious Savior. Yes, dear ones, it is getting gloriously dark! (helpful household hint..- just as He said..) -Everything is progressing according to His timing, -not ours!- This is the LORD’s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Are evil men and seducers waxing worse and worse? Yes!- Just as He said.. Hallelujah!
Oh, how we need to pray- “Thy will be done!” Remember this please..- “Three hundred sixty-six times He has said: “Fear not!”- Why would He have to bother repeating this so often? “Comfort one another with these words!” Whose words? – His. Back to the book, y’all. -When all else fails.. read His instructions! “Whatever He says unto you- do it!” Does this include repentance? Absolutely. Does this include prayer? (pray without ceasing) Positively.
I am so blessed to be part of this online family. It is thrilling to me to read your stories of salvation, rescue and deliverance. Our G-d is (always) able- Is He not? He is the worthy One, and we are one in the bond of love.
As we see the world we live in teeter and totter, is it not comforting to know- there is a merciful, forgiving G-d who loves us (unconditionally) with a love that excels all loves?
“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you!” (Isaiah 49.15) His name is Immanu’el, G-d with us! -“A very present Help in time of need.”
I’m still documenting authentication commands on the day of rest, but have some thoughts on abortion to consider:
Judaism 101 on Abortion
Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.
An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence.
The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.
Yes, and if this were only true of the majority (the vast majority) of abortions, no one would object. But abortions today are much more like child sacrifice in the time of Moses. They are offerings in order to insure a present lifestyle.
“They are offerings in order to insure a present lifestyle.”
Hi Skip,
I understand, but abortion still seems to me to be the “lesser of two evils.”
Young women who are not yet ready to properly raise themselves should not be mothers IMO.
Unless they choose to be.
If we do not allow them to have abortions, they become a huge burden on our society.
The “religious right” does not want to raise taxes to pay for their children.
And I don’t want to pay for their health, education, and welfare either.
Supporting these illegitimate children is an “unaffordable charity.”
Do you mean that finances are more important than life? Removing tax burdens more valuable than children? Excusing immoral behavior is easier than demanding consequences? Contributing to immaturity because maturity is expensive?
Hi Skip,
No, I don’t think any of those things.
First of all, I don’t think abortion is like murder, stealing, or adultery.
Abortion is not always wrong in my view, as Judaism 101 clearly articulates.
Nobody in their right mind could kill a child for any reason, after it comes out of the womb.
But until it comes out of the womb it is not a child, it is part of the mother who owns it, in my view.
In my view, regardless if abortion is an immoral act, the mother has a right to do what she thinks is best for herself and her family.
If the religious right wants to condemn abortion as an immoral act, I couldn’t care less.
But I don’t think abortion should be made illegal.
One could argue that abortion is not murder and that it is no worse than adultery.
Which is not illegal.
At the same time, I believe abortion has serious, negative, spiritual ramifications on those involved.
On one’s relationship with God.
I understand your point Michael, but frankly, your view doesn’t really matter here, right? The question is whether or not God considers an unborn fetus a person, not whether we do. That means a mother does NOT have the right to treat a fetus as if it is the equivalent of a tumor or an ingrown toenail if God holds the life of the unborn as sacred. As for your comparison, we know pretty clearly that God considers adultery immoral even if men don’t. So, are you suggesting that we live according to our own laws despite what God says?
But let me take the side of the religious right who does not want to pay taxes.
Let’s prohibit abortion and “put some teeth” into these anti-abortion laws.
And then take these young women and put them in jail where they belong.
Murderers that they are.
With the fathers who are equally to blame.
Of course that is all well and good until you pose the question.
Who wants to pay for more jails? Don’t we have too many already?
As far as I know, the only way we can pay for more jails is by raising taxes.
Not sure what to do with their young chidren either? Put them in jail too ?
That’s because their argument, from a logical standpoint, is just “hot air.”
I understand your point Michael, but frankly, your view doesn’t really matter here, right? The question is whether or not God considers an unborn fetus a person,
Hi Skip, I agree.
not whether we do. That means a mother does NOT have the right to treat a fetus as if it is the equivalent of a tumor or an ingrown toenail if God holds the life of the unborn as sacred.
Agree.
As for your comparison, we know pretty clearly that God considers adultery immoral even if men don’t. So, are you suggesting that we live according to our own laws despite what God says?
My point was that we know God considers Adultery immoral.
Are you saying we should throw people in jail for adultery?
Actually, the penalty was a bit more severe for adultery. Of course, that was the MAXIMUM penalty. There are examples over lesser punishments.
“Actually, the penalty was a bit more severe for adultery. Of course, that was the MAXIMUM penalty. There are examples over lesser punishments.”
Hi Skip,
Well back in those days the MAXIMUM penalty was very cost effective.
Now days the MAXIMUM penalty costs the taxpayers millions of dollars 🙂
Yes, the replacement of personal reimbursement with an obligation to the State changed everything
Michael,
As a pro-lifer on the “religious right” I can safely say that I do not know of one individual who is pro-life for fiscal reasons. Yes some might be bothered by taxes supporting other families, but that certainly is not the basis for a pro-life stance. Michael, it seems like your heart is in the right place when you speak about a traumatized woman who has wandered into sexual sin, but it still seems like you are missing the point. You say that prosecuting the “mothers” would be the punishment for abortion, but then the issue is paying for them, etc., etc. The point is not “well since there are all of these consequences of unborn pregnancies, the better solution is to just allow the abortions; it saves money and there are fewer welfare-dependent families.” I certainly do not see it that way. The point I believe that Skip has been making in all of his writings is that the mother, father and doctor involved in a situation like that ALL have human, ungodly, and very selfish motives, beginning with lustful intentions and usually ending with the financial incentive of a doctor eager to manipulate a traumatized woman (or couple).
It seems like you are attacking those on the “right” of the abortion debate with distracting arguments. The issue is NOT one of dealing with the lesser of two or more evils; the issue is that we need to go back to a societal foundation that puts spiritual obedience first.
For the record, from an American legal perspective (even though I believe it to be irrelevant from a spiritual perspective), I would prosecute the doctor, not the woman.
Hi Jeremy,
I appreciate your feedback and thoughtful comments.
But you and Skip are not addressing my point.
My question is who is going to pay for the bills?
Many of these young women in poor communities don’t have jobs.
They don’t have faimilies and their husbands are in and out of jail.
They are a burden on the state already, the wretched of the earth.
They are the kind of folks that Jesus focused on.
It is expensive to have babies and raise children.
We often indirectly pay for their abortions with our tax money.
Or we can pay for their children with our tax money.
The right wing politicians understand my logic.
They just don’t acknowledge it.
Because they are hypocrites and liars.
The process itself is creating a criminal underclass.
That gives the right wing politicians something to moralize about.
I’m not crazy about left wing politicians either.
But do you have any idea how much money we are spending on our prison system already?
It is bankrupting our country and is paid for with our tax money.
Might as well “jump in”. -It is our duty to speak (dabar) and to protect the lives of the innocent. And what is more innocent than an unborn child? -“It’s not a choice, it is a child.”
Word of G-d speak:
“You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.”
-“even darkness like this is not too dark for you; rather, night is as clear as day, darkness and light are the same. For you fashioned my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I thank you because I am awesomely made, wonderfully; your works are wonders -I know this very well. My bones were not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed.” (Psalm 139)
this, (of course) was written centuries ago, before the advent of ultrasound. Surely you have seen pictures of our imperfect substance- the embryo growing in the womb of the mother? The heart, the eyes, the fingernails.. – what is this then? A blob of tissue with a heartbeat? Kill it!- It might be human!
Michael..- where is the compassion? Are you any type of glad your own mother made the decision to not abort you?- Welcome to the planet, – w’ere glad you made it. Now, -help others to make it as well.
We are all made in the image of our compassionate Creator. Amen? (or oh me!) If G-d is compassionate, (and I hope by now we all have come to the realization and recognition- He is,) then we also being His children should exhibit the same compassion to all, just as He did, (and does!). We should be merciful, we should be faithful and we should show love and compassion to everyone who comes across our path, because we have been made (and are being made) “like Him.” Like Father, like son.” This defines “the chosen ones.”- the ones who are “little Christs.” He went about doing good.
G-d is pro-life. There is not a moments doubt. “I have come that you might have life!” It is the Thief who want to steal, to kill and to destroy.
Abortion is and will remain a divisional issue. Life begins at conception. Do you believe or doubt this? If not, then when does life begin? Two weeks? Three months? Thirty nine days, fourteen hours and fifteen minutes? Even if we are not quite sure when life begins, should we not “err on the side of caution?”
I am out hunting in the woods and I see a flash of white. I think it might be a deer, but I’m not sure. Oh, well.. “BLAM!” I shoot anyway.. and the results are? Tragedy and travesty, just as has occurred in this once great nation. We are killing our future, murdering the innocents. All in the name of “convenience and comfort.” Brother, -it is a child, -not a choice.
May G-d have mercy on us all. Either He will have to judge America, or apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.
For those who may have had or or considering an abortion, I do not “judge” you at all. Not now. Not ever. Judgment belongs to the Son.
Would you like to hear what I have done? What sins I have committed? (I hope not). Suffice it to say, I (too) have sinned -sufficiently. It is not the amount of sin, it is the fact of sin, and these are the facts- “all have sinned.” I am simple enough to believe, when G-d says “all”, He means “all,” -(the man typing these words is included.) I also believe these words from His book: “But there is forgiveness with You, That You may be feared.” (Psalm 130.4). And dear family- if He can forgive me, -I know He can forgive you! Amen?- Hallelujah, -“It is so!” He has forgiven me, -a sinner, condemned, unclean.
I stand amazed in the presence
of Jesus the Nazarene,
and wonder how He could love me,
a sinner, condemned, unclean.
How marvelous! How wonderful!
And my song shall ever be:
How marvelous! How wonderful
is my Savior’s love for me!
For me it was in the garden
He prayed: “Not my will, but thine.”
He had no tears for his own griefs,
but sweat-drops of blood for mine.
In pity angels beheld Him,
and came from the world of light
to comfort Him in the sorrows
He bore for my soul that night.
He took my sins and my sorrows,
He made them His very own;
He bore my burden to Calvary,
and suffered and died alone.
When with the ransomed in glory
His face I at last shall see,
’twill be my joy through the ages
to sing of His love for me.
How marvelous! How wonderful!
And my song shall ever be:
How marvelous! How wonderful
is my Savior’s love for me!
Yeshua was innocent. Yet he paid with His blood for our sins. That is innocent blood. The greatest sin is therefore, not accepting His sacrifice on the cross. That is unforgiveable.
Hello Skip & everyone! A friend of mine is concerned about not being forgiven. Can you please let me know what I can tell her? She was 19 weeks pregnant and bleeding heavily. She lost her amniotic fluid as well, and the baby was not growing well. She & her husband were informed that the baby was not going to survive, and if they did not terminate the pregnancy, she would die, because she was losing a lot of blood. She has repented and asked for forgiveness, but is scared of not being forgiven. Any advice please?
Manasseh was the King of Judah. The proclamation by God that Judah, THE NATION OF JUDAH, was not to be forgiven is just that, a NATIONAL sin. Manasseh was forgiven when he came to see that there is only One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel. He repented, tore down all the altars and made child sacrifice illegal under his rule. His grandson, Josiah, would lead Judah (Israel and Judah had split) to a revival. After Josiah’s death his son would again practice child sacrifice. It was then that the judgment came. Look at the charts of who was king when they were invaded, and either taken prisoner or killed.
Anyone who repents is forgiven. Nations are not forgiven according to Leviticus 20. Did you know that Native Americans practiced human sacrifice? You know about the Maya’s and Incas. They were all invaded and only a remnant survived. God is just.
Always, always get a second opinion on the health of the mother and never, never kill a child who is “deformed”. They are the ones who will be called to serve the King of Kings, the Messiah, when He establishes His rule on earth.