Shake It Up, Baby
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. Revelation 21:1 NASB
Passed – Things aren’t always what they seem. If we’ve learned anything from the last decade of New Testament scholarship, we’ve learned that the previous theological paradigm based on Greek metaphysics initiated by Augustine’s love affair with Platonism has seriously misled the Church. We’ve learned that New Testament followers were the continuation of a thoroughly Jewish understanding of the world, of heaven and of God. We’ve learned that we have to rethink some very basic religious ideas, bringing them back into alignment with their Hebraic origins. This isn’t easy. It is seriously disturbing to discover that we might have misunderstood major components like law, grace, baptism, sin, redemption, heaven and hell. But re-evaluate we must. The truth will not let us be free to continue to believe whatever Church ecclesiastics taught. We must know for ourselves.
N. T. Wright, a world renowned scholar, recently published Surprised by Hope. In it he questions the usual Christian idea of heaven, particularly the idea that heaven is a place free from bodily restraints, completely unlike the corrupt earth and immediately experienced upon the death of the believer. Wright questions the entire theological focus on “going to heaven.” Wright’s contribution to our understanding of this very famous verse in John’s apocalyptic vision is his remark about the reunification of heaven and earth. “At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, ‘Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven.’ It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation.”
Of course, knowing that John writes from an Hebraic perspective already tells us that John views this act as restoration and renewal, not an absolutely new beginning. This stands in utter contrast to the Augustinian-Platonic idea that this world is essentially worthless since the Fall and destined to be replaced, not renewed. Based on the thought of passing away, the Church since Augustine has taken the Platonic idea of the ethereal, transcendental abode of pure Forms and used that to describe the other-worldly place called heaven. But that doesn’t square with Yeshua’s remarks nor any of the Hebraic teaching about Sheol or heaven. Furthermore, as Wright points out, there is no justification for the idea that we are instantly transported to heaven upon death. That thinking stems from Plato, not YHWH.
I know that this is hard to swallow. We have been part of the “go to heaven” crowd for so long that it’s agonizing to realize we were duped. So many of our “sacred” myths seem to be dismantled when we read the Bible within its own culture. But it can’t be avoided unless you just want to put your head in the theologically-correct sand. Even the verb should have warned us that the Platonic concept was suspect. “Passes away” is the combination of apo and erchomai, literally “to come or go near or away.” It could be translated, “to flow past,” or “to come to an end,” but it also means “to disregard, to remain unnoticed, to depart.” Read the verse again and ask yourself why John connects “going away” with the absence of the sea? Does that mean there aren’t any beaches in heaven or is John using imagery that expresses the removal of borders, precisely the role ascribed to the land and the sea in Genesis? Is John poetically suggesting that this current arrangement of boundaries will be replaced with a conjoining of heaven and earth into one cosmic Kingdom? Since Jewish thought was never preoccupied with getting out of this world, why do we think Yeshua endorsed an escape route? If God created the world good, and blessed it, why would He abandon it?
Maybe this is one more thing we need to rethink.
Topical Index: heaven, new, passing away, aperchomai, Revelation 21:1, N. T. Wright
I clicked on the link to read the interview with Wright (and it’s interesting). I’m kind of surprised that Time Magazine ran something like! But it’s neat to see that we’re not the only ones who wonder what happened to the Hebraic worldview and are realizing that what we’ve always been taught isn’t necessarily true. Great post Skip! I hope your trip is AWESOME! 🙂
Hola Skip, gracias por enseñarme.
Sin embargo a la apelación de hoy tengo si tengo inquietudes:
Si bien aparece la palaba “pasaron” hablando de los cielos y la tierra (y no discuto tu opinión sobre significado etimológico), ¿No aparece también en el versículo 1 la palabra “NUEVO” cielo y “NUEVA” tierra?
También vale la pena recordar Skip que aunque dios ceo el mundo tov, tras la caída de nuestros padres, Dios maldijo la tierra (Gen 3.17)
Perdóname Skip si he malinterpretado tus palabras en esta ocasión, pero mi lengua nativa es el español y hago un gran esfuerzo todos los días por entenderte de la mejor manera.
Dios te bendiga.
—
David Rodríguez
Colombia
—
This definitely does SHAKE UP my paradigm. However, what has been brought to my attention (from the Scriptures) in the last few years certainly opens up a new way of examining my beliefs, according to that phrase “IT IS WRITTEN.”
It is exciting to consider how much participation we get to enjoy in the restoration of all things, beginning today – here and now!
Rob Bell’s latest “Love Wins” isnt the only voice suggesting that the traditional Christian theology of heaven be reconsidered. I say “shake it up baby; twist and shout”. That’s because I was raised in a Pentecostal church and I secretly listened to sinful rock and roll. The concept of 2 becoming one may mean more than we first thought. Come on come on Yeshua.
“Balderdash” would be an appropriate word for today. “Wright is wrong.” But isn’t this typical of the world today. What’s right is wrong.
The man writing these words is holding on to the hope of heaven. Why? Because , dear friends (both Jewish and Gentile)- according the scriptures- “it is so.” The “concepts” (more real than the things which are seen) of heaven, of hell, of angels, of demons, of Christ, of Satan, of this world, of the world yet to be, of Christ’s incarnation, of His life, of His death, of His resurrection, of His ascension, of His soon return, of the “ecclesia”, of the nation of Israel, of the past, present and future of all mankind, of the cities of Bethlehem, of Jerusalem, of the disciples of Christ past,present and future, of the new birth, of the Hebrews scriptures, of the Greek New Testament, these all testify of the reality of the “newness” found in the Messiah, for He has said, (are we listening?) –
“Behold, I make all things new.” This “newness” is found in one place. (Yes, that was a period) It is found “in Christ.” Mr. Wright- are you “in Christ?” Are you “Christ-centric?” Are you found “in Him, not having a righteousness that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ–the righteousness that comes from G-d and is by faith? (Philippians 3.9)
Christ said, “I AM the truth.” Present then, Christ unto me. Show me truth. Show me the scriptures. What do the scriptures say? What is sir, the source of truth? “Search the scriptures,” was the command of Christ. Show me, scripturally – there is no heaven. Show me, scripturally- there is no hell, no devil, no Savior, no “hope of heaven.” I’ll be waiting..
Meanwhile.. (back at the ranch..) -I will sing the wondrous story of the Christ who died for me..- sing it with the saints in glory, gathered round the crystal sea..
“If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.” (1 Corinthians 15.19) Pity the ones who believe “in this life only” we have hope.. – I believe (only) in the things that are seen- right?
Listen to this noise..
I love to tell the story of unseen things above,
Of Jesus and His glory, of Jesus and His love.
I love to tell the story, because I know ’tis true;
It satisfies my longings as nothing else can do.
I love to tell the story, ’twill be my theme in glory,
To tell the old, old story of Jesus and His love.
I love to tell the story; more wonderful it seems
Than all the golden fancies of all our golden dreams.
I love to tell the story, it did so much for me;
And that is just the reason I tell it now to thee.
I love to tell the story; ’tis pleasant to repeat
What seems, each time I tell it, more wonderfully sweet.
I love to tell the story, for some have never heard
The message of salvation from God’s own holy Word.
I love to tell the story, for those who know it best
Seem hungering and thirsting to hear it like the rest.
And when, in scenes of glory, I sing the new, new song,
’Twill be the old, old story that I have loved so long.
Words: A. Katherine Hankey, 1866.
Poor deluded fool..- let us pity her- she believes in heaven.- No, not at all. Katherine, my friend..- It won’t be long, I’ll be there with you, singing the same “old, old story that I have loved so long..”. “Jesus saves.” This is my story- this is my song.. praising my Savior, -all the day long. Perfect submission, perfect delight, visions of rapture now burst on my sight- Angels descending, bring from Above, echoes of mercy, whispers of love.. Hallelujah, what a Savior, hallelujah- what a Friend!- saving, helping, keeping, loving.. He is “with us” to the end. “Verily,-truly, amen” for “it is written.”
Carl, you might look at his books on Amazon.com for info on him. I did that, and it would appear that he has really done the work to develop this area of understanding. If he is not ‘in Christ’, he is surely fooling a lot of people.
John 17:20-24
“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”
“that they may be one, even as we are one” ~ “that the world may know”
Clearly, the Father has given us many levels of understanding in His Word. It may require a larger shovel to dig that deep. My guess is, even if we could use an industrial mining machine, we could never dig deep enough to find it all. Line upon line, precept upon precept. What surprises must await us in the distance! 🙂
Brother Carl,
Greetings, my brother! I would like to know, “If you have read his book?” I will not defend, Mr. Wright, but I have read this book. It seems to me, his faith and view of heaven is very orthodox. Would you like to dialogue more about this? If you have not read this book, I believe it is very unwise to make such comments. In respect, Brian.
Like destinies I suggest we are careful with our “periods”. The Bible, the Tanak, the New Covenant writings, the Talmud with it’s Misnah and Gemara are all records of conversations. These conversations have been taking place between men and women since the ancient of days. These conversations are about the Creator, what He said, what He has done, who He is, and perhaps more relevant how those created in His image and according to His likeness are grappling with all of this information. People have have been seeking to understand for a long time. As for me, I want to join in on the dialogue. I grew up with Sunday morning monologues, and they no longer interest me. Give me a dynamic community where disagreement is valued and encouraged. O God save me from the unison voices of passivity and apathy.
Very thought provoking post today. It makes me wonder about what happens to us when we die. If this view is correct, then what happens to us before Yeshua comes back to join heaven and earth in a new creation? After I die am I some place or am I ‘dust’ waiting for the resurrection? Also, Yeshua told the thief that he’d be with him in paradise. So, where and what is paradise?
Also, I know a few people who have had profound experiences with a deceased relative who was saved and in Heaven. So, were they hallucinating or deceived? I’m just throwing out some food for thought.
I have the sense that some day we will all learn just how little we truly know or understand.
Hmmm, reunification, removal of borders, no separation…could being “in Christ” be a visible and growing example of that society which will eventually arrive? That Kingdom of Heaven?
I think Paul was pretty clear when he said “To live is Christ, to die is gain,” “Having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better”, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.” Whatever the “intermediate state” is that Wright talks about, it sounds like it is very much better than being in our body on earth.
What I don’t see in Wright’s interview with Time Magazine (I haven’t read his book) is support for the idea that the intermediate state is like being asleep compared to being in the body, which I assume he means the body we have now. I don’t see how feeling asleep compared to now is “far better”. I do think that Wright got it right (or Wright) when he said that it is being with God and Christ and is a place of rest and refreshment. I think that both Christ and the thief were in this state when their spirits were both departed from their bodies. I would be willing to conjecture also that paradise is synonymous with heaven. And the Bible definitely seems to teach that there is a final state of bodily resurrection that is even better than the “intermediate state.”
Either way I am sure looking forward to it, especially as this body gets older! 🙂
Let it be known unto all this day, Yeshua is LORD of heaven and of earth. He said (His words)- “my kingdom is not of this world”. There is “literally” another world. Yes, G-d made the heavens (skies) and the earth and yes, He called it good. But this is “boot camp”- a training ground for all of us, preparing us for the “life yet to be.” Folks- these years upon this little green planet are just a blip on the radar screen of eternity.
No, I do not believe in raping the planet or nor creating greenhouse gases indiscriminately because “this world does not matter.” No, this world, does matter because this is my Father’s world. But , there is another world, largely unknown to all of us (who I presume at this point are still living and able to read these words) marked by the doorway known as death. And people- “to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” Gain, as in “better.”
Heads, we win, tails- we win. To live (Christ) to die (gain). Heaven is a glorious place. (understatement of the year award) It is a place untainted by sin, not like this glorious world our Father has created. The problem with this world is sin, which runs rampant in our streets, in our homes, in our places of business, and in our minds. We are under the influence of sin and because of this – paradise, -right here, right now does not exist. I am forced to take a bath often, both physically and spiritually. Have you heard this dirty joke? – No, thank you. Our is still (to this day) to refuse the evil and to choose the good. But thank G-d for the power of choice, He has bestowed upon every one of us. We are able to choose the good!- Isn’t this wonderful?
We see through a glass darkly.. our eyesight is impaired.. but every now and then, we catch a “glimpse of glory.” What is heaven like? As it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what G-d has prepared for those who love him”— (I Corinthians 2.9) Streets of gold, gates of pearl, a twelve-fold foundation of precious stones?- What part of Poughkeepsie is this located in? Is heaven a real place? I so want to say.. “in my Father’s house are many dwelling places .. ” “I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from G-d out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.” (Revelation 21.2)
Yes, Heaven(s) exist. And hell? Ah, I asked you for a response once, but you did not. I think it’s a theologic monstrum, invented to scare people into church. This does not mean there will be no judgement! But eternal flames? Heaven forbid, nowhere Scriptures teach this.
Heaven exists. But this does not imply we go there once we die. What’s the use of ressurection when I’m in heaven as soon as I die? I would strongly protest to God: please, leave me in Your good heaven! I don’t want to go back to this place called earth!
No, death is really death. There is no knowledge, work or anything in sheol / hades, to which we all are going (Eccl.9:5,10). Only through ressurection there is new life. That we will not die is what the serpent tried to make Eve believe…..
Kees, read Luke chapter 16 and Revelation chapter 20. Remember, our foundation is “it is written.” No fear, -just the facts. “Perfect love casts out fear” (1 John 4.18) “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3.9) “For G-d sent not the Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.” (John 3.17)
Could it be that the truth is somewhere in the middle? That heaven and earth will be unified, is shown in Gen. 1:1. The statement that when we die we will be present with the LORD is just as real as the fact that man is intimately, eternally tied to this earth, and that this kingdom of Heaven will be here, NOT somewhere else. Is that a time after the millenium, when there’s a “new heaven and (vav) a new earth. It certainly raises some issues about the resurrection and it’s timing and purpose! We won’t be able to get to the bottom of it, but let’s not be prevented from trying.
“At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, ‘Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven.’ (I agree) It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation.” (I agree)
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of G-d. (Romans 8:21)
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. (2 Peter 3:10)
But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. (2 Peter 3:13)
We may know Christ in this life, but we will not know Him in His fullness, until the next, because to know Him fully (I believe) will take us an eternity to do so. Life is beautiful, and life is grand, but this short life is not the “end of the line” for anyone. Eternal life is “both” a quality and a quantity. Seven, eight or nine decades does not qualify for “eternal”, unending life.
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of G-d and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re 20:6 (KJV) To live for a thousand years just ain’t natural folks..- and this is just the millenial reign.. It’s still not over!
I used to believe the Christian perspective on heaven and hell. At present, I am still convinced heaven is the most beautiful and glorious state of existence, however, that can not be compared to standards other than the Word/Torah. Heaven is the community of the Kingdom. It is the place where YHWH’s Word is in EVERY person’s heart and no one will be teaching the Law because within the community, EACH person will be obedient and loving one another according to the Law.
Quite obvious is the fact that we are not there NOW. This “heaven” is a mystery yet, the glimpses we have through the lens of the light of Scripture, present us with the desire to be there. This Kingdom is at hand, it is near, it is present through Christ. we have access through our Messiah, who has shown us the Way. No waiting to get to the other side to make things right, to have peace with God is to live out His grace as obedient children in our Father’s House.
We should diligently search the Scriptures as Skip is suggesting and view the teachings according to them and not the lure of fables and ole wives tales used to bring about the warm fizzles. Many counting on fishing as they laze away the days chillin by the crystal sea, or strumming harps on the clouds may be sorely disappointed by heaven. When YHWH’s lex Rex is the constitution and no lawless ones will be present, we should be taking note now, shouldn’t we?
Yes Mary, the kingdom of YHWH is “both”- now and later. He rules. Right here, right now. G-d is not an absentee Landlord. He is very present in the affairs of men.
If I were to “present” G-d, I’ve often fantasized about doing it the same way Vince Lombardi would start every season: “Gentlemen, this is a football.” Well, folks- you can’t see G-d. Do we need some scriptural “backing” for this? G-d is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. In Him we live and move and have our being. Reach out right now and cling to that which does not appear. Huh? That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. I love to tell the story of “unseen things above,” etc. G-d is invisible. -No news to a fifth grader..
“No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is Himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.” (John 1.18) Houston- we have a problem. If G-d is ONE-(according to the scriptures)- how can this Father/Son/Spirit “presentation” or “problem” be explained? The (Eternal) Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Yeshua’s claim? “I and my Father are ONE.” Or this claim by the ONE: “No man comes unto the Father except through me.” Yeshua is the DOOR. We (sinners) gain access to the Father through the Son and the propitiating, atoning blood He shed for “all”- both Jew and Gentile on Calvary’s cross.
I am a Christian. But I am a Christian with “very” Jewish roots. Furthermore, I am a charismatic Jewish “catholic” Christian. lol! (you’ve got a lot of explaining to do Mr.- lol!) Oh Mary, – how blessed we are to be called the children of G-d and that is exactly who we are. How do I know this? The same way you do- “it is written.” According to- “it is written”. Comfort one another with these words- (what words?) the words that have proceeded out of the mouth of G-d, written for all to read, to discern, to study, to ponder, to do, to meditate, to marinate, to proclaim,- to enjoy. Hallelujah! for the word(s) of G-d. “Both” Hebrew and Greek. “Both” Old Testament and New Testament- more accurately- Old Covenant and New(er) Covenant- for the New Covenant, (brought to you by) the blood of Jesus (who is the) Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach, (for those who wish to call Him by that name), is a fulfillment of hundreds of Old Covenant prophecies. Thousands of bulls, goats, lambs, turtledoves were slain upon the altar as a sacrifice for sins, “but when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of G-d, waiting from that time until His enemies should be made a footstool for His feet.” (Hebrews 10:13) Oh Hallelujah for the cross! We should lift high (and cling to) the cross of Jesus Christ. We should lift high the tslav of Yeshua HaMashiach. It was through the cross He conquered death, sin and the grave. It was through the cross His victory was complete. The very cross in which Hasatan rejoiced at the death of this carpenter’s son, was the “gallows of Haman” which destroyed forever His dominion. “O death, where is your sting? O grave- where is your victory? Gone. Christ has triumphed over the tomb. He is risen and dear friends- He is risen indeed! Alive! Alive! Alive! Hallelujah! Alive forever- Amen! Oh, let us tell others of this glorious victory. Our G-d reigns!
But this central event in history is not the end. It is the beginning. Salvation has come in the form of a man. Someone sent from the very heart of G-d who Himself proclaimed to be G-d. We have seen in this carpenter’s son from Nazareth (of all places!..) a Teacher, a Rabbi whose words never fail. I have studied this man’s words and have found them to be ‘without error.” I wish to model my life after this man. He is the “gold standard.” My goal? -“The measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” The bar has been set high, but is it attainable? “Be ye holy for I am holy” is the command to us. All of us who are called by His name, “both” Jew and Gentile. This “all of us” explains why I call myself (or have labeled myself)- “catholic.” Catholic as in “universal.” Whosoever will may come and no man-whether Jew or Gentile, male or female is left out. “Whosoever will” is very extensive. This is G-d’s open invitation to “all.” The veil of the temple was ripped from top to bottom (G-d did this!) to proclaim His “satisfaction” with the propitiating offering of the blood of Christ upon the mercy-seat. He was the “final sacrifice” for sin. His last words? “It is finished.” Paid in full. (may I?..) Hallelujah! Yes!- He included me, Yes!- He include me!- when our LORD said “whosoever”- He included me!.
So, -I am saved. Born again. Delivered. From sin set free. No condemnation. Justified, reconciled, made new in the eyes of the Holy ONE. -Now what? Yes, when I die there will be “pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by” but what about the “nasty now-and-now?” How then, shall we live? lol!- What is written? Back to the Bible friends, our “user manual.” Read the book. “It’s in there!” Enuf, to keep us busy till the Master returns to claim His bride. (that’s us!).
We are twice-born people living in a once-born world. “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to G-d, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light. (1 Peter 2.9) Is this more than I can “handle?” Oh yes! – it is.. Glory!
I have heard many times, the PARABLE in which Jesus spoke of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), used as “proof” of heaven or hell. I really did not understand what this parable meant until this morning. I read it afresh, out loud. You may see it, too.
Very s-l-o-w-l-y, with an open heart, and a hearing ear, read Luke 16:19 – 31.
(Remembering that whoever has an ear to hear, will easier hear it out loud.)
But, before you do, ask yourself these questions:
Who said this?
Exactly who was he speaking to?
What does he say is his reference material?
How important is this?
Is this what we are teaching?
How did I miss the meaning of this passage all these years?
Shalom,
In relationship to the story of the rich man and Lazurus found in Luke 16:19:31. Robert L. Lindsey, (one of the founding members of the Jerusalem School For Synoptic Research) has written a book entitled, “Jesus Rabbi & Lord,” he believes this story was connected to a larger story that can be found within Matthew and Luke. Yeshua, responds to an incident with a teaching discourse, and to establish what He just taught on, He gives two parables. The units he believes that fits together to tell this larger story are: Luke 10:38-41; Matthew 6:25-34 and/= Luke 12:22-34; Luke 12:22-34; Luke 16:19:31.
I have a very busy day ahead of me, but if this whets anyone’s appetite?
Thank you, brother, for these texts. All of them are so very true! But sometimes I ask myself: do I really understand what I’m reading? In my many years of studying I discovered time after time I did not read as I should. My opinions changed, the Word remained the same! You’re so right: just the facts. In this we are one. But still there is difference in the way we read. I often value your way of reading very much. Sometimes allow me to read somewhat different. If you want to know how I read Luke 16, please read my comment on Gayle’s remarks.
Gayle, could you expound? Kinda just want to know wherte your coming from. Thx.
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, the ‘lovers of money,’ during this conversation. Just before this, he made the statement that “it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.”
Verse 31 says, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.” He points out that the Torah is the way for us to HEAR. Maybe that is why they pray three times a day, “Hear, O Israel, . . .”
That last verse, coming from the mouth of the one who would rise from the dead, is so powerful when I ‘hear’ it. I think it is about life and death (whatever that would be). I also think it points to the place where very important ‘words of life’ are found – in the Torah.
I was meditating on this yesterday, and it brought to mind the charismatic movement in the Body, about 40 years ago. It was very powerful, and brought many people out of complacency in the churches. So many of the songs that I heard during that time, came from the Tanach (OT). Not trying to diminish the NT in any way, but it it sent me back to the beginning.
It’s just that I saw the meaning of this parable in a whole new light. Not about heaven or hades, but about one’s willingness to ‘shema’ – hear and obey – what the Scripture has always said.
Gayle, My husband and I discussed this parable last night and I too a saw it in a “new light”, a more revealing light, if that is ok to say. When we recognize Messiah was speaking to certain Pharisees, the reference to divorce in vs. 18 makes more sense. It may seem out of the blue, however, Messiah reemphasized the point of their missing the goal of the Law because their hearts were hardened and they had left their love, YHWH, to serve the god of mammon. He then went on to recount the fate of the rich man who received his reward of self centeredness as he consumed all he had upon himself rather than using a portion of it to help the poor beggar Lazarus. God had given him the opportunity to live out the Spirit of the Law, but were too blind to see that their possessions and means were blessings to be used to help the poor. Those with means should be serving others, not expecting the poor to be their servants.
The rich man then appears to have a missional glimpse of compassion, but Yeshua counters the man’s understanding with the reality of the gospel. YHWH gave everything necessary to avoid living a wasted life through the Law and the prophets. The sign, even of resurrection, was never to replace the Law and the prophets. This is an additional challenge to my understanding. I wonder if this resonates in our ears, or do we think this only applies to people with the official rank and title of “Pharisee”?
This should have read: YHWH gave everything necessary through the Law and the prophets to avoid living a wasted life.
Blessings of our Messiah to you today.
Thank you Gayle,
I agree, why wouldn’t they believe even if one raised from the dead?! Because the Tanach defines ressurection. When I first started this “search?” i was bothered occasionally about spending so much time in the “old” testament,
Until I read the “new” testament in light of understanding the terms as defined by the “old”. Then it became incomparably richer. Until then, Jesus was standing afar off (up on the mountain!) speaking words of life to me, now He whispers in my ear, just loud enough for me to hear. And the words are mine, He’s given them to me.
Indeed, as I read it, Luke 16:19-31 is not a picture of heaven and hell. It’s part of a parable starting in Luke 15 and ending here. This part is a picture of what is going to happen with this rich nation, Israel. What nation had more riches than they, having received the teachings of God? They were a royal and priestly nation, just look at their dress: purple (only for royalty!) and fine linen (the priestly clothes). They – the Pharisees – are the royal priesthood Jesus is talking about! What’s going to happen to this nation? They will be dead – as a nation. And indeed they disappeared from the face of the earth whem the Romans ruined their land. It took until 1948 to get back their land and be a nation once again. In those ages of death, they were in hell. Really! Persecuted, murdered, thrown out from one country after the other: this was worse than hell! Mind you: the Greek doesn’t say ‘hell’, that’s just a very, very bad translation! Were they in fire? Yes! How it hurts me to admit that my country didn’t do anything to help them during Worldwar II!
I could say so much more. But for now I only want to make clear how I read this passage: Jesus is speaking about the sad and terrible consequences for the nation of rejecting Him as the Messiah. The future He paints is terrible, and sadly this happened just as He had warned them about.
I cannot possibly read this as a picture of afterlife anymore.
Wow, I can see what you might mean. It is horrifying. To extend this principle further, the judgment begins at home, because He uses His Own for an example to ‘the nations’. Would this be an accurate representation of what you are saying?
I don’t know if that conclusion could be made, but it certainly showes me that Gods words should be taken seriously!
I fear the Lord, but I’m not at all afraid:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. (Rom.8:1)
(b.t.w. I have no other English translation than the KJV, sorry. My ten Dutch version won’t help you!)
the book”heaven is real” was about a 4 year old boy who died,he said he saw Jesus and John and James. it was on the t.v.last night.Wed.May 18th.he is now around 12 years old.hopefully someone else has seen this also story on t.v.local news in Homestead Florida…..
This reconstruction comes from pp. 98-101 of Bivin’s and Blizzard’s book, “Understanding the difficult words of Jesus.” The Mary And Martha Story Reconstructed
He entered a village, and a woman named Martha welcomed him to her house. Her sister Mary seated at the Lord’s feet to listen to his teaching. But Martha was irked because of all the preparations that had to be made; and she went to him and said, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do all the work by myself? Tell her to help me.”
Martha, Martha,” the Lord replied, “you are worried and disturbed about many things; only one thing is important. Mary has chosen what is better, and what she has chosen will not be taken away from her.”
Then he said to his disciple, “Amen! I tell you, do not be worried about your life {literally, “soul”}, what you will have to eat and drink; nor about your body, what you will have to wear. Isn’t life {literally, “the soul”} more important than having clothes to wear? Look at the birds, they don’t sow or reap or store in granaries, and doesn’t your heavenly Father feed them? Aren’t you more valuable than they are? Can any of you add a single inch to your height by worrying?
“And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the flowers grow: they don’t toil or spin. I tell you, even Solomon, in all his splendor, was not dressed as one of these. If this is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow to stroke an oven, will He not more surely clothe you, O men of little faith?
“So don’t be worried, asking, ‘What are we going to eat or drink, or what are we going to wear?’ (Don’t be like the heathen) for the heathen chase after these things. Your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But more than anything else desire the Kingdom of Heaven {i. e. , long to be a part of my movement, to be where I am} and His salvation, and all these things will be yours as well.
“So do not be worried about tomorrow. Tomorrow will wory about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
“The field of a certain rich man produced a good crop. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my grain.
” ‘This is what I will do,’ he said, ‘I will tear down my granaries and build bigger ones, and in them I will store all my grain and goods. ‘Then I will say to myself {literally, “to my soul”}: “You have enough goods laid aside to last you for many years. ‘Take life easy, eat, drink, and be merry.” ‘ “But God said to him, ‘You fool! Tonight you will die {literally, “your soul will be demanded”}. And then who will have what you have prepared for yourself'”
“There was once a rich man. He dressed in purple and fine linen and feasted sumptuously every day. A poor man named Lazar used to be placed at his gate. He was coverd with sores. And as he lay there longing for a few scraps that fell from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.
“Finally the poor man died and the angels carried hm to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Gehinnom where he was in torment, he saw in the distance Abraham with Lazar in his bosom.
” ‘ Father Abraham, ‘ he cried out, ‘have mercy on me and send Lazar to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham said, ‘My son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things {literally, “goods”}, while Lazar received bad things. So now he is here being comforted and you are in agony. And besides, between us a great chasm has been firmly fixed so that those who want to crosss from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
” “Then I beg you, Father,’ he said, ‘to send Lazar to my family because I have five brothers. Let him warn them so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
” ‘No, Father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone comes back from the dead’ ” (Luke 10:38-42; Matthew 6:25-34 = Luke 12:22-31; Luke 12:16-20; Luke 16:19-31).
It’s disturbing to me that so much time and effort has been spent in recent days trying to figure out G’d’s plan for “After-physical-death”! If we have truly accepted Yahweh as our All-In-All and are convinced that he is in control and has our best interest wrapped up in His grace and mercy, why are we so concerned. Can we prove anything! Not on this side of the grave. I may be wrong to feel this way, but I think that arguing about G’d’s plan for His world is a waste of our time and energy.
Hello Bonnie,
It has been mentioned that Hebraic thought is not focused on the afterlife as so much of Christianity is. Otherwise there would be no need for the Law to instruct on how life should be lived. Some, it seems, are waiting to get to heaven to get it right…not perfect just forgiven. That used to be my mantra. Praise YHWH for His mercy! YHWH’s Law stands now and foreverl. The Kingdom of Heaven Yeshua spoke of was not coming in the future; He said it is at hand…
Blessings.
Bonnie, if you perceive or think we are “arguing” please- don’t think that way! This is an open blog and we each are free to share our thoughts, doubts, fears, beliefs, etc. No one is refused or reprimanded in any way. We are here to “search the scriptures” whether these things are so. We dive deep into the Hebrew and Greek and are learning wonderful things from G-d’s book of instruction. If you perceive me or anyone else to be “argumentative” please accept my apologies in advance. With much love, Carl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYijLl5PRRg&feature=related
I think the writer of this song knew where heaven is…
Mahalia Jackson..Walk in Jerusalem