Further Thoughts on Sinful Nature
It’s worth reflecting on Heschel’s remarks concerning the Christian doctrine of sinful nature, especially since this doctrine contains implications that are antithetical to Judaism. If what Christianity teaches about the federal headship of Adam and the subsequent guilt passed to all generation is true, then it is no wonder that Judaism cannot accept Christian doctrine as biblically based. This should give us great concern since a clear objective of the Kingdom is the reconciliation of Jew and Gentile. Christian apologists have usually maintained that the only appropriate course of action is for Jews to give up their view of God and Scripture and convert to the Christian paradigm. But historical evidence proves that none of the apostles or Paul abandoned Jewish thinking or Jewish exegesis when they accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. In other words, none of these men converted to a different religion called Christianity. That should cause us to ask, “If the disciples did not leave Judaism when they accepted Yeshua as the Messiah, when did this doctrine so opposed to Judaism actually come into being?” The answer will help us see why Judaism rejects the doctrine and why Christianity thought it was so important.
Heschel remarks: “Perennial guilt deriving from a state of sin was certainly absent from the Kotzker’s thoughts [the Kotzker is Reb Menahem Mendl of Kotzk]. A sense of irreparable disorder caused by sin or of a catastrophic and final loss of God are inconceivable in Jewish thought; nor is inherited guilt, as already stated, a part of the Jewish consciousness. Even the mystics who have believed that Adam’s sin or some other cosmic disaster corrupted the original order of creation and who have seriously sensed its consequences to their own day, did not place the burden of guilt upon the individuals of subsequent generations. Judaism maintains that human existence is a state of involvement. Man is involved with the Creator by his very being; for in being he obeys the command, ‘Let there be!’ Just to be is holy. Being is not a predicament of guilt but rather a triumph, a tribute to Him Who has created the world. Just to be is a blessing. Being is a continuous bestowal of blessing. The problem is not being. How to be is the dilemma.”[1]
This difference in the view of life and the nature of Man results in significant contrasts in other theological arenas. In Judaism, life is cherished because it is only in this life that a man is able to fulfill the mitzvot in the service of God and impact the Creation with righteousness. In Christianity, this world is a place of trial where the only appropriate attitude is acceptance of inevitable suffering in hope that a day of escape will soon come. For a Christian, the ultimate goal is martyrdom. Christianity honors its noble dead by declaring them saints. Judaism honors those who have died by recalling their righteousness in everyday actions.
For Christians, original sin emphasizes the absolute separation of the transcendent God and corrupt Man. Judaism, on the other hand, operates on the belief that there are innumerable ways to please God who is intimately involved in human history and in the lives of every individual whether righteous or wicked. Christianity has traditionally taught that the commandments of the Old Testament have been set aside, not simply because Yeshua’s death “fulfilled” them but also because they were essentially flawed and temporary. Judaism views the commandments as part of the very structure of the universe, a reflection of the nature of the Creator, applicable to all men at all times and essential for understanding and following God.
For Christianity, sin is the central point of religious life. Christian living is, as Luther suggests, a continuous experience of repentance and a daily, existential confrontation with moral failure. Judaism recognizes the problem of sin but its central focus is on the Torah, God’s instructions for living here and now. For the Jew, sin is grave but not without remediation. Torah provides forgiveness. For the Christian, there is nothing a man can do to remediate his inherent sinfulness. He is completely helpless, lost and condemned until God acts on his behalf. Furthermore, he can never measure up to God’s standards in spite of the fact that he is held accountable to them. His real situation is pathetic insufficiency.
When Augustine introduced the idea of original sin and extended it to universal guilt, he moved Christian thinking on the nature of Man as far away as possible from its Jewish roots. Instead of finding the meaning of life in understanding and acting upon God’s demands, Augustinian Christianity found the meaning of life in the next world where the fallen helplessness of this existence is overcome by divine action. Judaism recognizes that Man is indebted. He is indebted because he has been created by God and owes his life to God. Therefore, he is called to serve His creator according to the directions he is given. But Augustinian Christianity does not view Man as merely indebted. It views Man as evil. The real issue in the life of men is how to remove the evil within. Since this evil within is the ultimate source of all acts of sinfulness, no action taken by men can ever overcome it. In Christianity, man is born to strive for salvation. In Judaism, man is born to worship.
Consider Heschel’s closing remark on the impact of the doctrine of sinful nature from a Jewish perspective: “If man was created ot seek the purity of his soul, [this is the underlying motivation of the Platonic influence in Augustine] then his entire worship was for his own benefit. And if serving God meant to serve the self, what happened to faith? . . . To do what was Holy in order to please oneself was an act of idol worship. Thus, the doctrine that man was born in order to strive for personal salvation would signify that he was intended to worship an idol . . . No, the supreme purpose could not be personal salivation.”[2]
You and I have probably never imagined that a doctrine like original sin and sinful nature could be interpreted as a foundation for idolatry, but Heschel makes it clear. No wonder Jews cannot accept the teachings of the Church. Everything about Christianity presented in the Augustinian-Luther model smacks of another temptation to idolatry and that they will never do again.
If the Jewish do not view sin as the Christian faith did, why do they have the need for yearly blood sacrifices. Why are they devoting time to using blood to cover the sins of the nation? Im confused about a doctine that states “To do what was Holy in order to please oneself was an act of idol worship.” What church teaches that? Certainly not the ones I have attended.
Dear Donna,
I think you may have misunderstood the point here. The Jewish view of sin as disobedience and its effect on the relationship with the Father isn’t different from a conservative Christian view. But HOW sin occurs is very different. Churches that hang on to the Augustinian-Lutheran idea of the sinful nature are philosophically and theologically committed to a view of Man that implies that the real goal of humanity is to seek personal redemption – to “clean” myself from the inherited sinfulness that I have. So, salvation becomes a means of gaining PERSONAL holiness. The real goal isn’t worship of God. It is getting rid of the sin nature. That’s the point Heschel is making. Judaism sees sin as an impediment to worship. Christianity sees sin as an impediment to human being.
Im not sure its fair to lump all of “Christianity” as having the Lutheran ideal. There are many non=creed Protestant churches who do not teach this.
You might be right that there are many non-credal churches who do not teach a doctrine of sinful nature. I can think of a few myself. But that isn’t the issue. The issue is that as a matter of historical record, from Augustine to Luther-Calvin, this doctrine has been identified as essential to Christianity. Therefore, we have to deal with it even if now, after 1800 years, we see its flaws.
So, salvation becomes a means of gaining PERSONAL holiness. The real goal isn’t worship of God. It is getting rid of the sin nature. That’s the point Heschel is making. Judaism sees sin as an impediment to worship. Christianity sees sin as an impediment to human being.
Salvation is the means of personal holiness. I cannot be holy for you, neither can I be saved for you- we each must come to G-d- one by one. Each of us will give account of himself/herself before our Maker. Sin is an impediment to “both” worship and to being fully human. The command of YHVH remains “be holy, for I am holy.” Holiness is both imputed and imparted- If we wish to see a life of holiness modeled for us- we need to look no further than our Master- the LORD Jesus- who went about doing good. The ten commandments can be summed up- “love G-d, love people”- and does this not describe the life of Christ? “The end of the commandment (the goal!) is love out of a pure heart, a clear conscience and of faith unfeigned.” (1 Timothy 1.5)
With respect to the two views of how sin occurs, does not a Jew know he has imperfections and flaws and accepts them, knowing that God already knows; therefore, although we continue to look to God for instruction and correction and strength to overcome, it is HE that is the focus, the one to worship because [is this right?] “He is within/inhabits the praises of His people”. ??
Thanks again Skip. O how my soul longs to meet our Redeemer one day so that this struggle being human can stop. I bless His Holy Name. “Thank You Abba Father for your patience, unconditional love and grace. Thank You Father for Yeshua HaMoshiach. What would mankind do without this!”
So what about Yeshua? Was it he who died on a cross at Calvary? And why did he die? And was there a resurrection? And did he talk with his disciples afterwards? And what of people who still speak of still meeting him? This is a knee-jerk reaction. But somehow I like it. I also like the discussion very much. Must read Herschel and Augustine. Every Blessing.
Hi Harry,
I’m not sure how to understand your comment. Can you elaborate a bit about the “What about” questions? How are the questions connected to this subject?
you have heard it said, but I say unto you..-“follow Heshel..”
“G-d paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors.” (1 Peter 1.18)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3.28) Huh? neither Jew nor Greek? – I thought that is what I just read- maybe I’m mistaken- I thought this was a war of Hebrew vs. Greek? The O.T. written in Hebrew and the N.T. written in Greek- both halves fighting against each other- right? Those bad ol’ Greeks- they think they are sinners! No,- it’s the Hebrew half- they are so wrong!
“What is causing the quarrels and fights among you? Don’t they come from the evil desires at war within you?” (James 4.1) Evil desires at war within us? Within us? Is “sin” (is this any such thing as sin?- are “WE” sinners? Let’s ask Heshel- he seems to know- he is, after all our “go-to guy”- our Rabbi, our teacher, our authority-right? Or shall we look into G-d’s Book and find every single answer to every single question we may have concerning life and godliness? -Choose you this day who you will serve- find a man among you- a man unlike any other man this world or any world has ever known! – I too, know a Rabbi (personally!). The greatest Master/Teacher ever. ← (yes, that was a period) I choose to believe this: “it is written”. I will quote from a book that has been given to “whosoever will”- a book that has been written to the Jew first and also and also and also to the Greek. A book that has been written in the Hebrew language and also and also and also in Greek. A book which reveals (in totality) a G-d who loves the world, the world, the world- Jew and Gentile- all. Define the word “all” for me -someone. If you speak Hebrew what does “all” mean to you? If you speak Swahili- what does the word “all” mean to you. Do you have a word for the word “all” in your language? -Wonderful- now hear this (in your native tongue.) “ALL” have sinned. Jew, Gentile, male, female, the educated and the ignoramus- “all have sinned. What separates us (sinners all) from a G-d who has revealed Himself as thrice-holy. (Shall we deny the holiness of Yah?-may I answer Heshel?- I shall not.) Stand before your Creator and answer when he asks- weigh your ‘holiness’ against His and fall on your face before Him. Both knees will bow- (all who have knees)- Hebrew knees included. Black knees, white knees, Democratic, Republican, old, young, black, white- “every” knee shall bow- “in heaven and in earth”- The pair this man has been given to be included.
G-d is holy. (Fact or fiction?) Man is sinful. (at what point, where, how, when- moot points all- sin has been both declared and established- make no mistake- “I have sinned, and am no longer worthy to be called your son” has proceeded forth out of my mouth.” – Friends, I know what I have done. I have sinned. (What I have done- matters not..) It is not the “amount” of sin- it is the fact of sin. May I illustrate? If I were to add one drop (just one!) of gasoline to the glass of water you were about to drink and then invite you to drink this very cup- you would look at me as if I were nutz. (unless of course- you liked the flavor of gasoline. The cup of water has been polluted by the gasoline. One drop did it. -It is not the amount (or weight) of sin, -it is the fact of sin. Sin, the presence of sin- the very thought of sin- is foolishness. “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom”- Why should we fear G-d? Because friends- He is holy (just the facts) and we (all of us) are not. Light and darkness do not mix. G-d hates sin. Sin is what nailed Christ to the cross. My sin, your sin- all sin- paid for (in full) by the blood of the Lamb.
If we (sinners) are to be reconciled to G-d it will be “only” through Christ the Messiah. Christ is the Reconciler. He is the Redeemer. Not “a” redeemer- “the” Redeemer. We (yes, I said we..) all may approach Heaven’s throne through the Door (not a door) “the Door” who said, “I AM the way..”
Meet me at the cross Rabbi Heshel, there “together” we will worship Him. We will one day “bow the knee” together. -May that day be “today.” Amein.
Skip,
This is one of the most important discussions of my spiritual life. Thanks for pushing this subject out there.
I don’t understand the final statement, however: “Everything about Christianity presented in the Augustinian-Luther model smacks of another temptation to idolatry and that they will never do again.”
It doesn’t quite make sense to me. Can you please clarify?
-MB
Judaism learned its lesson about idolatry in the Babylonian captivity. Since then it has never entertained anything that appears to be polytheistic. Christianity as presented in its current form appears polytheistic, not simply because of its trinitarian view but also because the doctrine of sinful nature seems to suggest that man seeks salvation for himself, for his own benefit. This is viewed as a form of idolatry since it appears to place worship on the creature rather than the Creator.
“… appears polytheistic, not simply because of its trinitarian view … ”
Are you suggesting Trinitarianism is polytheistic?
I am stating that Judaism views it as polytheistic.
If Judaism is incorrect about the Trinity, it is therefore wrong about the Messiah, so why is Judaism trustworthy on the idea of original sin?
Apples and oranges, my friend. Apples and oranges. Is Einstein right about space-time flux? Does that mean Newton couldn’t be right about the relationship between mass and gravity? Does a mistake in one aspect of theology invalidate all other claims? Gosh, if that were true we would have to throw out everything Luther said because of his remarks about the Jews.
So we view Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the Holy Trinty and they only consider God? What do they do with their future Messiah? Is he not a part of God? If that is true that would suggest the disciples did indeed change from jewish faith to Christianity. They claimed Jesus as the Messiah, Christianity is believing in Christ as the Messiah. Did the disciples believe Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit were 3 in one?
I think your confusion begins with thinking of Yeshua as “part” of God. Even that isn’t the Christian doctrine. Since the topic is so difficult, and there are no unambiguous Scriptures regarding the Trinity, I think it best if we are very careful about the language we use.
Come on, Skip, how do you know that Judaism learned its lesson about idolatry in the Babylonian captivity? On the contrary, they merged much of Babylonianism into Judaism, it is so obvious in modern Judaism and many of their historical writings. Both Christianity and Judaism are riddled with Babylonianism. It appears, you think Judaism has gotten it right.
Robin, At God’s Table needs a “like” button to make it easier to say “I like that comment.” 🙂
I think you missed the point. Certainly modern Judaism has been influenced by Hellenism. That is obvious even in Maimonides. But modern Judaism finds its roots in the Pharasic movement established after the destruction of the temple. It is not the biblical version of Judaism and certainly not the Judaism that Yeshua embraced. And it would be incorrect to say that Judaism after Babylon worshipped any other God than YHWH, as they had before Babylon. I would be interested in an elaboration of your statement that the Judaism of the first century “merged much of Babylonianism”. What exactly are those mergers?
I’m not just speaking about Hellenisim although all of the pagan religions have a common thread. I’m specifically referring to the Babylonian mystical and philosophical influence the Jewish people brought with them from the Babylonian captivity. It is in the Kabbalah which influences orthodox and hasidic religious thought. This influence can be seen in the Talmud and other Jewish writings. I’m not saying everything is Babylonian mysticism is untrue but clearly there is a real mishmash. I believe that one can only discern the often subtle intertwining with the revelation of the Ruach HaKadosh, and one is given this light of revelation proportionate to one’s willingness to to be mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically cleansed. If you are interested in more specific details I will provide them when the Ruach provides the time.
With regard to this entire discussion, I would like to refer back to something I wrote in December last year. Here it is in its entirely.
December 8 For the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. Deuteronomy 30:14
Moses Lied
Do – “Evil is not man’s ultimate problem. Man’s ultimate problem is his relation to God.” We might need to read this line from Heschel a few more times. It underscores the difference between the Bible and all other ethical systems. The Bible is a guide to repairing the relationship with God. Actually, it is more accurate to say that the Bible is God’s manual about repairing our relationship with Him. It is not an ethical system for overcoming evil. In fact, the Bible doesn’t even explain the existence of evil. Such an explanation is simply not important. What is important is God’s pursuit of Man, His desire for fellowship with us and the amazing steps He has taken to repair this breach. No follower of the King could deny this.
But there is a reciprocal action. God’s pursuit of Man is to be reflected in our obedience. He loves first so that we might love second. He chooses us so that we might choose Him. He acts on our behalf so that we might act on His behalf. In other words, the Bible expects us to fulfill God’s instructions for living. It assumes that we are perfectly able to do so. In fact, it requires us to pursue Him just as He pursued us.
Moses stood before the people. He delivered God’s final instructions before crossing the Jordan. “All of you were born with a sinful nature. You are all sinners, you are all guilty because Adam fell and everyone since then is the product of a sinful constitution. The Law only demonstrates how miserable you are since it isn’t possible for you to keep it. That’s why I am giving you these holy instructions today, to remind you that you are helpless and hopeless before the Lord. You will never be anything but a sinner until God rescues you.” What? That’s not what Moses said! He said that God’s instructions for righteous living are not only “not too difficult,” they are so close to you that you are fully capable of doing them. The Hebrew phrase la-asoto (you may do it) surrounds the verb asah, the verb of simple practical action. More than 1,000 times, it is translated “do.” Another 653 times it is translated “make.” There is nothing about this verb that suggests we are incapable of completing the action required. In fact, just the opposite it true. The Bible assumes we are able to do what God asks.
Moses didn’t lie. There is nothing about being human that prevents us from doing good except our choice not to obey. Oh, that’s a big problem, for sure, but it isn’t an inherent problem. It doesn’t begin with a corrupt constitution. It begins when I choose to listen to myself. There are two impulses in a man. The one he feeds will dominate him. “There is always an opportunity to do a mitzvah [good deed], and precious is life because at all times and in all places we are able to do His will. This is why despair is alien to Jewish faith.”
Dear Robin,
I am no expert on Kabbalah. My understanding is that this mystical system of Jewish thought actually was developed much later, but it is possible that it has roots in the Babylonian captivity. I do have another concern, however. You suggest that our epistemology depends on the revelation of the Ruach HaKodosh. I have no doubt that Scripture affirms the aid of the Spirit, but that is a far cry from a theory of knowing that depends upon the Spirit. I am sure you can see how much this becomes the subject of anyone’s personal revelation. I can think of any number of religious leaders who have claimed a revelation from God – with disastrous consequences. It seems to me that if God’s word has been revealed in His prophets and that word is communicated faithfully to us, we are not in a place where we cannot understand His word unless we have further revelation. To suggest this is true is to embrace one of the implications of the doctrine of sinful nature – that Man’s reason has been affected by sin so that he is incapable of understanding anything of God without a divine interjection. I am sure you can see where that leads – to every individual’s personal declaration of unimpeachable direct divine content.
Skip, of course there are checks and balances. Any revelation must be within Torah bounds. Believe anything not substantiated by Scripture is speculation. I am not saying that the speculation might not be true but that we can’t validate it therefore, we’d be on shaky ground to teach it. I can understand you concern about people running around espousing or acting upon their own personal revelations without boundaries. That is one purpose for Torah. God’s children were designed to hear God’s voice and they recognize the Shepherd’s voice. This is literal not metaphorical. This is walking in the Spirit and they can discern things of the Spirit. You will only know these people by their fruits. People who are walking by another spirit are the one’s you have to watch out for because they often look like sheep but are actually ravenous wolves. Deep calls to deep, these things can only be spiritually discerned.
Great word today, Skip. Even thought I was raised as a secular Jew, I was kind of shocked when I first started to attend a church because it seemed to be all about sin, sin, sin. As a Jew, I just didn’t think about “oh what a horrible sinner I am”. Heschel’s insight is astounding to me. This really adds to what the late Dwight Pryor taught a few years ago. The doctrine of original sin never felt correct to me and I have never accepted it. What kind of loving G-d would create me that way? That’s how I see it. Simplistic, yes, but that’s how I relate to things. Yes, I sin (miss the mark, mess up, disobey, etc), but I reject the idea that Adam’s sin was implanted in my DNA.
This was great reading. Thanks. It explains why so many Christians lose hope and think they cannot overcome. I saw a man riding a bike one day. He was moving quite fast and ran right into a parked car. He and the bike went over the car, both landing on the ground in front of it. I asked a teacher why this happened. I could not understand how he ran into the car when it was right in front of him. The teacher told me that many times we will automatically run into what we are focused on. No wonder sin is so hard for us Greek-thinkers to get free of. No wonder so many are living in condemnation.
Could we focus on the facts? What is our current condition? Not when we were born- we all have progressed many miles from our mother’s wombs.. What is our current state? If we are “in Christ” according to Romans 8.1 (that is, if you believe G-d’s word to be true)-“there is therefore now,-no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.”
The question following this (to me) would be: what does it mean to be “in Christ Jesus?” I want in on this!
☼ There is no condemnation to them which are “in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).
☼ Spiritual life or living can be only found “in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:2).
☼ Folks are saved “in Christ” (Ephesians 2:12-13).
☼ We are sanctified in Christ’s body or the church “in Christ Jesus” (1 Corinthians 1:1-2)
☼ We become a new creation “in Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:17).
☼ We are made the righteousness of God “in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
☼ All spiritual blessings are found only “in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).
☼ We are one body “in Christ” (Romans 12:5).
☼ We are wise “in Christ” (1 Corinthians 4:10).
☼ We are begotten through the gospel “in Christ” (1 Corinthians 4:15).
☼ We can truly rejoice “in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:31 KJV).
☼ God establishes us with other brethren “in Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:21).
☼ The Old Testament veil is done away “in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14).
☼ The simplicity of the gospel is “in Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).
☼ We have liberty “in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 2:4).
☼ We are the children of God by faith “in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:26).
☼ By obeying our Lord in baptism, we are all one “in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28).
☼ The faithful are “in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1).
☼ God has raised us up and made us sit together in heavenly places “in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6; cf. Romans 6:4; Titus 3:5-7).
☼ We are God’s workmanship created “in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:10).
☼ “In Christ Jesus,” the Gentiles were made near by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:13).
☼ God’s eternal purpose is found “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Ephesians 3:11).
☼ Every saint is “in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:21).
☼ Our faith is “in Christ Jesus” (Colossians 1:4).
☼ Paul’s desire was to present every man perfect “in Christ Jesus” (Colossians 1:28).
☼ The truth is “in Christ” (1 Timothy 2:7).
☼ The promise of life is “in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 1:1).
☼ God’s purpose and grace was given to us “in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 1:9).
☼ Faith and love is “in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 1:13).
☼ Grace is “in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 2:1).
☼ Salvation is “in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 2:10; 2 Timothy 3:15).
☼ Our manner of life and living should be “in Christ” (1 Peter 3:16).
-not I, but Christ!
“Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to G-d for Israel is, that they might be saved.” (Romans 10.1)
That was then- this is now. Or is it? Do “Israel” or the people of Israel need salvation? Do they (still today) remain in need of a Savior? For they have been given the Torah and the law of Moses. The sacred writings.
But what of the Mercy Seat? That piece of furniture found within the veil of the (then) Temple. The place where YHVH met with the High Priest annually on the Day of Atonement? What was sprinkled upon the Mercy Seat? (may His blood- cleansing blood-the blood of the Lamb- be upon us and upon our children..)
“For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” (Hebrews 10.4)
What, then- can take away my sin? (-nothing but the blood of Jesus) What can make me “whole” again?- nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh- ‘precious’ is the flow- that makes me white as snow..-
“Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the LORD.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool. (Isaiah 1.18)
-and the blood of Jesus Christ (G-d the Son)- cleanses from all sin. (1 John 1.7)
“In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:” – (Colossians 1:14)
Was the cross of Christ necessary? “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of G-d.” The cross? The power of G-d? Was this cross revealed unto Moses? What about that brass serpent on a pole? What was that all about? “look and live.”
“And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.” (Numbers 21:9)
A foreshadowing (the brass serpent) and a fulfilling (the Christ). Salvation foretold and salvation fulfilled. “look and live”. -“Behold, the Lamb..”
The issue for me is that i am seeking UNDERSTANDING of the God who speaks from the pages of the Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic scriptures. You have very provocatively shared what Judaism, and Heschel, understand of that God. THANK YOU!
Oops, Skip – i forgot to mention that since you called this article “Further Thoughts …”, may i ask that you please provide me with any previous blog/s that you’ve posted on this subject? Or is the above, “Moses Lied” it?
Thank you.
If you go to the home page of the web site and search “sinful nature” you will get a lot of material from previous posts. Hope that helps.
Skip
Done! Thank you! Getting my face into it now . . . . 😉
As I read some of these posts, the struggle to come to grips with the idea of an inherent sin nature vs. a “drive” inherent in us, is clear. If you would permit me, I would like to share some thoughts on the subject from perhaps a different angle. If this helps you, all the better, If not, throw it out. I just thought that seeing it from a different side may be beneficial.
One of the issues that Skip has been putting forward is that the “characteristics” of God , like love, justice, etc…, are not what we define as godly characteristics but rather the characteristics themselves are defined by what God DOES. Let’s take justice in this case and let it run it course as defined by God.
I won’t quote verses for the sake of brevity, as well as the simple fact that you all seem to be well enough read in the scriptures to discern the appropriate ones for yourselves.
All through the scriptures, God reiterates the fact that ALL He does is just. As Skip stated there is NO impropriety with Him. The law of repercussion goes exactly like this; eye for eye, tooth for tooth….If we apply this Divine justice to the Messiah and the work that was accomplished by Him, we find several things out almost immediately. The first of which I would list is that the sacrifice given (at the crucifixion) had to be at least equivalent to the sin (all) of man. The command says life for life. A life is worth only another life. If Yeshua wasn’t YHWH, the only life that exceeds the value of ALL life, than the sacrifice was insufficient to cover our sins. In other words, even if He was only a man, albeit a perfectly sinless man, than His sacrifice could have only covered ONE life. That puts the rest of us in a pretty precarious position!! Although I don’t sense that any on this board disagrees with the divinity of Yeshua, I brought this up as an example, as well as a precursor to address the issue at hand, ie. the “inherent” sinful nature of man.
If the Messiah was to be a sacrifice in our place, He has to be like us. In fact the scriptures say exactly that very thing, “He was in all tempted as we are, without sin. This throws us into a bit of a quandary if we have an inherent sin nature, because to be an appropriate sacrifice, (measure of justice to cover sin) He would also need to have it. If He had it, He couldn’t have been God, much less an appropriate sacrifice. Although this could be opened up a lot more, it’s something you might consider.
If this all sounds a little like “Greek reasoning”, so be it. I call it reasoning from the scriptures. Anyway, I found this to be an intriguing debate, and thank all of you for your questions and answers, I’ve learned a lot.
Yes, and now you know what motivated Catholic theologians to invent the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (which is not about Yeshua but about Mary), thus being able to claim that Yeshua didn’t have a sinful nature because the half of the nature he got from Mary was also sinless. How? Because Mary was also immaculately conceived. No wonder Mary is such a powerful figure in Catholicism. By the way, purgatory is also a response to the sinful nature problem.
You have to wonder how Luther could have been so insightful about grace and so opaque about sin.
I find the same imbalances in myself. Oftentimes it’s because the issue is to frightening to face, (ie. I find out that I’m wrong 🙂 ) so I turn away before I discover the fullness of the doctorine. I learn slowly most of the time, and unfortunatly the hard way!! But I find out sometimes what the spaces in between the letters are!! 🙂