Things That Bother
Further Remarks on Sinful Nature
The Christian doctrine of sinful nature proposes that, as a result of the Fall, all human beings are born sinners, not because they personally choose to disobey God but because they have inherited the status of sinner through the propagation of the species. While no one claims that sin is passed on by DNA, the doctrine essentially suggests that the very act of conception insures the resulting child will be a sinner in need of saving grace. Why? Because the spiritual nature of this newly-created being has already been tainted by Adam’s original sin and is therefore deserving of eternal punishment. The inherited sinful nature is the ultimate cause of all resulting sinful actions. In this sense, sinful nature is much like blood type. It cannot be changed. It is part of what it means to be a unique human being and it is the foundation of one’s existence. Sinful natures, of course, produce what they essentially are – sin. Just as an acorn cannot produce a banana tree, so a man with a sinful nature cannot produce righteousness. Sinful natures produce sin and on that basis every man, no matter what age, is guilty either because he has actually followed his nature and committed acts of disobedience or in principle because given time he will produce acts of disobedience. Having a sinful nature is being guilty.
Kierkegaard wasn’t the first to recognize that if this doctrine is true, every sex act that results in pregnancy propagates more rebellious human beings. Therefore, it must follow that pregnancy itself is a concomitant in crimes against righteousness. If Christians wish to eradicate the sinful nature of men, they must stop producing children. In fact, insofar as they have children, they are merely adding to the register of those condemned to hell. To produce a child knowing that this child will add to the enormity of sin by simply being born must strike at the very heart of righteousness. Christian parents become the progenitors of sinners. God’s institution of marriage and His command to be fruitful results in expanding the borders of Hades. That is certainly comforting, isn’t it?
Furthermore, if men are born with a sinful nature that causes their actual sins, then it is hardly reasonable to hold them accountable for such behavior. Would we condemn a child born blind for not being able to cross the freeway safely? Would we prosecute a Downs-syndrome infant for not walking properly at 12 months or speaking with perfect diction at age three? If our sense of justice makes allowances for those who are born with defects not of their choosing, what kind of God would condemn the otherwise innocent to eternal punishment simply because their most distant ancestor passed on to them a defective trait?
For that matter, if sinful nature is not a direct result of the physical human genome, then how does it get passed to human offspring? Does God Himself insure that this nature determined to rebel against the Creator makes its way into the “spiritual” DNA of the child? Or does God simply declare that all subsequent human beings following Adam will be treated as if they were also engaged in Adam’s act? Either way, do we really wish to serve a God who is so implacable and uncaring as to condemn millions to eternal hell for being born? How can we reconcile this with the overwhelming evidence of personal responsibility and culpability found in Scripture? Or perhaps we should simply erase all those passages, knowing that they make no difference in the long run.
Maybe we need to consider just how much Greek philosophy influenced this idea of sinful nature, an idea that did not arise in theological thinking prior to the second century AD. Perhaps we need to begin once more with a thorough review of the difference between the Greek and the Hebrew view of Man.
When teaching first graders for many years, I find obvious proof of the sin nature. We are born with a desire to do our own thing and it is whatever gives our flesh pleasure, right or wrong, and we are the center of our world, and when we don’t get to be, a temper tantrum lets the world know we don’t like others in control of our nature. Until someone trains us that that route brings distruction and unhappiness, we act like our father the devil, as Jesus told the Pharisees. The flood and the destruction of Sodom are good examples of how painful it is for a loving God to have to watch His own creation corrupt itself into the pits of corruption without desire to turn around, but He saw the value of the choice to love as precious enough to risk the fact that, choice, like other gifts, could be abused. He chose it to be for the expression of love, we chose to let it fall into the same sinful nature that satan expressed which was independence from God needing redemption. All have the need for that redemption and because He provided it we can still chose to let Him redeem it according to His desire instead of ours. Apart from His Life in us where His love changes our desire, I do not find anyone willingly and gladly dying to their self nature. We like being own lord and are often convinced we are good at it, until we find our sin nature isn’t capable of being a qualified Lord over our life to attain to righteousness.
Hi Kay,
I don’t doubt for a moment that you have personal experience with unruly children. I am sure many would agree. But that isn’t the problem with sinful nature. The problem with the idea of sinful nature is the this is the CAUSE of sin and is itself a form of guilt. That means that an infant just born, who clearly has not made any “sinful” choices, is equally guilty because of its sinful nature and deserves eternal punishment. While some of your school children certainly deserve punishment for their actions, it is difficult to imagine that a new-born does.
Skip – what do you think about the concept of the so-called “age of accountability” for moral/spiritual accountability? That we are not morally/spiritually “culpable” until we are able to discern between right and wrong (for better lack of terms) and then exercise our will in choosing between right and wrong actions?
Age of accountability is certainly in line with rabbinic teaching. The problem, of course, is determining what age counts. Again, we must look at the underlying motivation here. Remembering the yetzer ha’ra is a part of human being from the moment God created Man, we have to ask “What is the purpose of the yetzer ha’ra and how does it fit into the role that God designed into Man.” It is not SIN itself. That is a Platonic distortion. But without the power of desire, nothing human would happen (as the rabbis point out). Therefore, the question is the choice of direction, not the existence of the propensity. When do human beings begin to understand the nature of the direction of their choices. I doubt infants do, or even young children, but certainly at some point everyone who is truly human beings to grasp the idea of action and consequence.
Skip – this has always been more a curiousity for me and less something that hangs me up. I do find it interesting, however, that we know so little about Yeshua’s childhood other than his getting lost and then found in the temple “doing His Father’s business” and the more expansive statement that “he grew in stature with God and men”….Wondering if these omissions of his life-story were more intentional because they simply weren’t relevant to the writers of the gospels? Wondering if the “fully-man” Yeshua was a “perfect” child or if he required correction by his mother while growing up? Did “Yeshua” have an “age of accountability”, I suppose is the curious part of my thinking….And while perhaps subject to closer examination and perhaps translation issues, I have also wondered about the statement in Hebrews where the English translation says that “He (Yeshua) learned obedience.” Hmmm….mystery, I suppose.
Assuming an age of accountability, which no one knows when it begins, do children (or even young adults) who die before that age of accountability achieve the status of the redeemed on their own statement, “I’m not accountable yet” or on the blood and life of the Savior?
In the light of your comments about Kierkegaard, I wonder how he might have explained Prov. 16:4: “ADONAI made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of disaster.” Is Kiekegaard complaining about the manner in which YHVH allows evil to come into the world (procreation)? Or is he suggesting YHVH should not allow any evil to come into the world in any manner (including procreation) because YHVH is obligated to “the Good”?
This is a great article. It kills yet another basic tenet of Fundamentalism. Thanks Skip!
I can’t wait to begin this next segment of this discussion. When will you begin pointing the differences between the Greek & Hebrew view of man? Thank you. Whether it happens or not, I certainly have a lot to cogitate on in my ‘spare’ time.
You could listen to the audio lectures called “Commentary on Who Is Man” from my web site
Now, this should be a great discussion – a subject I would expect to encounter at a sixth day evening meeting of the ‘Men of the Bima” Of course, I will take a viewpoint that is something akin to the traditional Gentile world view, as flawed as it is.
I recall an old Jewish saying, “Where there are two Jews, there are three opinions.” I think we might get to test that accepted truism with this subject.
Shalom Aleichem
We call that “popping paradigms” in my little study group. Really fun and worthwhile.
I really miss those encounters since leaving Colorado. There are no Messianic assemblies in my area, and not being an observant Jew, I don’t get invited to synagogue for such round table discussions.
Of course, there are almost NO Christian churches that would even entertain such a concept! It might make the pastor/preacher/teacher look bad by illustrating gaps in his/her knowledge! /sigh/ But that is the purpose – let everyone challenge each other, and require everyone to provide scriptural support for any positional (theological/doctrinal) statement so challenged.
While that table talk approach works quite well in face to face discussions, it has some draw backs on an open forum where a 15 minute discussion could require several days to take place
Even so, it might be fun (educational?) to attempt it on this board, just as a test.
Some of us have been thrown out, or frozen out, of more churches than we would like to admit, and you’re right, the synagogues are not exactly welcoming us either.
So we started a little group of women getting together with some of the word books that Skip recommends, multiple translations of our Bibles, books we had collected, etc., with each of us bringing an opinion or two to the table and examining every side of an issue. It was so exciting that the men soon got jealous and wanted to join us. A few of the braver ones did; but those who felt threatend by this wide open format stayed away. When some began to question the roles of women in these studies, we were armed with Skip’s Guardian Angel book, and asked them to read it before they challenged what we were doing. One of the men actually demanded that we raise our hands and be recognized by one of the men before we could even speak in these small round-table discussions. We were “disorderly” according to him. We just had to inject as much humor as possible, actually took a vote to keep the discussion going as we had been, and continued on. Many of these objections have arisen, but we handle them the same way.
One day, not long ago, there was an eerie silence after somebody asked a question. Suddenly somebody spoke up. “Come on! Let’s make like Rabbis and start an argument.” I’m sure somebody will break us up at some point, but by then we’ll have a better idea of how to start another one, or two.
“Common ‘taters” abound. They are worth about 12¢ a bushel. So what’s your opinion? Surely it’s every bit as good as mine- or how about you or you or you? Let’s all speak up (at once of course) and give out what we think is true– or shall we allow- “What do the scriptures say?” to be our guide..
I think (just my two cents) we are entering into dangerous territory not allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves. When a presidential candidate comes on t.v. and ‘speechifies’ and then two seconds after he has done speaking some eggheaded individual comes in front of the boob-tube to ‘tell us what he (or she) ‘really’ said- this twice-born individual Greek thinking Hebrew Charismatic american citizen gets mighty rankled. (I wonder if being rankled is the cause of my wrinkles?)
Ah, those Christians! – George Bush is supposedly a Christian isn’t he? We all “know” it’s all George Bush’s fault!- even Chuck Norris knows- for heaven’s sake. I believe the words would be something on the order of: “oy vay!” (wrankled again!..)
If it weren’t for “those” Christians this world would be a better place. Who needs all that “salt and light” stuff anyway. Let’s just all go and do “our own thing”- Something in the order of “every man did that which was right in his own eyes..” (I hope to high heavens this ‘sounds’ familiar to someone) Have you ever read those words in the Book of books? You know- the book ‘Christians’ carry around with them. They never read it, or do what it says (those hypocrites- what’s wrong with “those” people?- oh yeah, -it George Bush’s fault- why do I keep forgetting?) -but it sure “looks good” under their arm on Sunday mornings. (Sunday morning bench warmers that they are) – Hey, this “Christian bashing” is rather fun!- I could get used to this!- I’m feelin’ froggy! woohoo! -Grab a stick and let’s go hunting!
Back to the Bible. Away with Carl’s blathering. By my words I will be justified and by my words I will be condemned- therefore (that means in conclusion) let us (all who have any sanity left) return to the word of G-d and let the Bible speak for itself. Would anyone like a cup of Sanity? – What’s your opinion? Surely it’s just as good as mine- Don’t all speak up at once now..-Let’s be civil.
Self or the Savior. This is the choice.It’s all about Me (or is it Him?) You choose. -Did you know you have the power of choice? (Amazing, isn’t it?) Choose you (are you talkin’ to me?) this day, this hour, this moment – Who you will serve. Am I serving “self?” Hello, me.- Or do I serve a Living Savior? – Sorry, we may only pick one.. It’s me or Him..- who’s it gonna be? –
When we were little tykes- and at one point in time we were- it was ‘all about me’- little self-centered Carl- isn’t he the cutest thing? So precious! Like a little puppy- they (little self-centered sinners) are so cute when they utter “mine” while playing with their toys. Now little Carl- “share your toys with Suzy..” How do I respond to this request? Is someone asking me to share? “No way”- this is MY TOY and don’t you know the world revolves around me? -what’s wrong with these people- after all- I’m large and in charge! – (right?) -Wrongy-dongy. Actually, it’s me, no me, no me- Hey, “we will not have this man to reign over us..” Rats, – I was so wanting to be king. Well then, – if that’s the way you want it to be- I’ll just collect my toys and go home..- Ah.. little (self-centered, self-aware) Little Carl. You sir, have been “pegged”- a sinner.
You have a lot to learn young lad. If only there were Someone who could teach you, and little fella-if only you would listen and obey. “Children, obey your parents in the LORD, for this is right.” Have I always done this? After all- I was such an ‘perfect child’ born to ‘perfect parents’ and living in a ‘perfect world’- right? Selah. -Take a breath Carl and say it once more- It sure feels good saying it: “oy vay!”
What do the scriptures say? (wanna hear some more of ‘what I think?’- I’ll wear you out!- feisty little creature, -isn’t he?) Please..-Just say no. Enuf of the blather- (what will this babbler say?-Acts 17.18-lol!-)- Let us return unto the word(s) of G-d. Let someone (please) say: “Thus saith the LORD” -Oh, Hallelujah! Relief!- Return, renewal, rejoicing, refreshment- thank you Redeemer, Master, Savior -Friend for your Book of Instructions-where would we (all) be without it? -What do the scriptures say?
“For all have sinned and come short of the glory of G-d”. At what age does this occur? Listen to what I am saying- “I do not know.” Neither is it up to “me”. If we would read G-d’s book we may learn something. If we listen to one another- we end up in a jumbled up mess of chaos and confusion- what’s your opinion?
“All have sinned”- Houston, we have a problem- those humans they are sinners- all of them- the Jews, the Greeks- the rich,poor, black,white, Hispanic, Eskimo’s, vegetarians- “all have sinned”. Does this include “me?”- check yes or no. What’s your opinion? – (oy vay!..)
Do we (yes, I said we) need a Savior or not? -check yes or no. Do we (yes, I said we) have a Savior or not? check yes or no. “..but deliver us from evil”- Who said that? Friend, -G-d did. Are His words true? Reliable? Trustworthy? Enduring? Endearing? Life-Giving? – Then don’t look or listen to me- look to Him! Listen to Him!- “Whatever He says unto you- do it.” For He must increase, but “I” (that’s me folks..) must decrease..
It’s not about me. (aren’t you glad?) And it’s not about him, her or “it” either.) The Bible is our “Him-book”. The written word reveals the Living Word. The will of G-d, the wisdom of G-d and the ways of G-d- all (Hallelujah!) have been revealed within the words of G-d. Now- “Who is this King of glory?” -What do the scriptures say? (Galatians 4.30)
“But Jesus answered and said unto them, You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of G-d.” (Matthew 22.29)
How firm a foundation, you saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word!
What more can He say than to you He has said,
To you, who for refuge to Jesus have fled?
Fear not, I am with you, O be not dismayed,
For I am your God and will still give you aid;
I’ll strengthen you, help you, and cause you to stand,
Upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand.
When through the deep waters I call you to go,
The rivers of sorrow shall not overflow;
For I will be with you, your troubles to bless,
And sanctify to you your deepest distress.
When through fiery trials your pathway shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be your supply;
The flame shall not hurt you; I only design
Your dross to consume, and your gold to refine.
The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose,
I will not, I will not desert to its foes;
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.
Some interesting thoughts there, Carl. That is exactly what I had in mind in the discussions I referenced above. Along with that, one must also consider the impact of the original language, culture, history, and religious precepts and practices of the authors, and having it all wrapped up in their individual world views. “let there be few masters (teachers)….”[KJV]
There was a major paradigms shift in Judaism in the 11-13th centuries with the advent of modern Hassidic Judaism, through the teaching of Rabbi Yitzhak Saggi Nehor, a Kabbala teacher and Moses de Leon, the most likely author of the purported 2ed century Zohar ms, and others. With the rise of Hebraic mysticism in Europe, it did not take long for major elements of it to gain acceptance throughout the world’s Jewish communities.
All of this to simply say, that reading Jewish commentaries on the Tanakh after the 12th century will be, at best, chancy. But they cannot be disregarded altogether. Commentaries written by Gentile believers are almost ‘a sure bet’ to be misleading, if not in down right error. The classic conflict between world views. The best approach that I have found is to do one’s own translation and test your interpretation against other translations – and against both Hebrew and Gentile commentaries. That is, one should become a scholar (a committed student, HaTalmid).
Of course, just reading the good old KJV of the Bible and/or hearing it preached has been, and continue to be, the primary vehicle for the English speaking peoples to come into a saving faith in Yeshua. That is, the gospel of salvation is rather simple, and we should keep it that way. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not too hard either. However, the gospels of God, the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, and the everlasting gospel may take some additional study for most folks.
So, what we are most often left with is this: Seldom can we find two people who can read the same passage of scripture and come away with exactly the same understanding and point of view. Then the process of sharing our understanding (interpretation and application) of scripture leads to a mutual agreement and unity on the key elements of biblical doctrines and the foundational theology. This process in no way discounts the integral participation of the Holy Spirit in this process. Acts 15 is a great example of this idea in action.
So, let the debates (er, discussions), begin. . . . . or not.
Great comment. (I fixed the typo too), Even Maimonides shows the influence of Greek philosophy. The quest is to return to the text and get as close as possible to the meaning for the original audience.
Thank you, and thank you. LOLOL
You really do put in a great deal of work on your site. If you don’t put in a great deal of work, your gifting, talents and abilities are indeed extraordinary! I also love the clear expression of your ideas.
As a teacher, I find that I am in a continual process of learning, i.e. receiving and examining challenges and insights from those whom I would teach, being instructed by knowledgeable individuals who disagree with my positions, and from other teachers of proven ability. By integrating all of these sources into my existing body of knowledge, making whatever personal adjustments that are required, and sharing the results with whoever might be interested, the process starts all over again.
What makes this so exciting is that the entire process must be renewed and practiced by every generation, starting with Cain and Able and continuing on with my own children.
Love your blog Skip.
Shalom V’Shalom,
Art
Thanks Art. Maybe you would be kind enough to add some thoughts to the current blog discussion with Bruce under “the Game Plan” as I am running out of time with this one.
Of course. I’ll take a look and see if there is anything I might contribute to the discussion.