Explaining It Away
“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.” Luke 14:26 NASB
Hate – What in the world can Yeshua possibly mean by this statement? Taken at face value, it has caused more stress, more confusion and more division than almost anything else He said. The history of Christian interpretation shows that the Church variously took this to mean self-loathing, rejection of parents and siblings, a call to complete monasticism and a denial of the very fabric of the human community. In fact, most English translations will include some sort of marginal note attempting to explain away the severity of this verse. Even Hebrew translations of this text contain notes suggesting the verb sane should be understood as “to love less by comparison.” But sane is the opposite of ahav so it’s hard to see the justification for mollifying its impact. This statement just doesn’t sit well with any loving person and it hardly seems appropriate of Yeshua.
This verse has also been one of the reasons Judaism rejects Yeshua as the Messiah. On the surface, it is a flat-out instruction to contradict Torah. The Torah tells us to honor our parents. How can Yeshua be the Messiah if He tells us to hate them? We could appeal to the parallel passage in Matthew 6:24 and say that Yeshua really meant “love them more than me.” Or we could try to tone down the Greek verb miseo (hate). But this is difficult. Miseo is the opposite of agapao and phileo, both commanded by Yeshua toward all people. No matter how we slice it, it certainly looks like Yeshua is breaking the fifth commandment.
We need to realize just how shocking this statement would have been in Yeshua’s culture. The rabbis taught that the Lord put the obligation of honoring one’s father and mother before honoring Himself. They considered honoring parents one of the great obligations, equal with honoring God.[1] But there is one rabbinic comment that might explain Yeshua’s remark within the Jewish context. It is a rabbinic teaching on Leviticus 19:3. “Even though I have admonished you regarding fearing [your] father, if he shall say to you ‘Profane the Sabbath,’ do not listen to him.” Clearly, the requirement to not honor parents or anyone else depends on the condition that these people are encouraging Torah disobedience. What if Yeshua’s remark is taken in this sense? Does He claim that He is greater than the temple, greater than the Sabbath, greater than Moses? Wouldn’t this rabbinic exception apply if relatives were instructing you to disregard His status as Messiah and Son?
The context of Yeshua’s statement is about clearly understanding the cost of discipleship. He uses a parable about building a tower. He exhorts followers to carry their own crosses. He talks about planning for battle. All of the context of this difficult verse is about proper evaluation and preparation. Who is his audience? Those who have been living their lives without serious reflection on the demands of the Kingdom. Now Yeshua says, “Even if your closest family, even if you yourself, provide justification for not doing what I demand, what God demands, do not honor them. Repel such suggestions. Hate that alternative. Do not let your present view of life prevent you from becoming a follower of the One who is greater than all these.”
This is a perfectly adequate rabbinic explanation for such a difficult saying, an explanation that does not require us to moderate the meaning of the verbs. It is also an explanation that upholds Torah. But in order to see it, we have to become students of a great rabbi. Nevertheless, there it is. It is consistent with Torah and with tradition. I see no reason not to embrace it – and therefore maintain the integrity of the text as it stands.
If this is Yeshua’s rabbinic approach to discipleship, then it raises an important question for all of us. Are we willing to uphold Torah no matter who tells us that we don’t have to? Are we ready to be His disciples and follow His example and live according to His instructions no matter what? That’s the real question.
Topical Index: hate, miseo, sane, Luke 14:26, Matthew 6:24, Torah
“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.”
For me the statement above has the same effect today as it did the first time I read it
It makes me want to put down the Bible and not read any further
My sense is there is a problem with Luke, not Jesus
Similar to the problem we find with “Paul”
“But Kaypha answered and said to Yeshua, “My Lord, it is beautiful for us that we should be here, and if you wish, we will make here three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (Matthew 17.4)
Peter really did have a good heart. He meant well. His intentions were good. Those were some “heavy hitters”, some dignitaries, some luminaries, some very influential people who were there on that day with Yeshua. Come on now..-it was Moses! and Elijah!- Men of G-d! and prophets extradinaire!- This wasn’t Joe or Sally (with apologies to Joe and Sally..)- this was the revered Moses and the honored Elijah! Prophets of G-d!
We know their stories and we know them well. Remember Moses? What has He done? What is his testimony? What is his story? And what about the mighty man of G-d Elijah? No small potatoes for this man- What a mighty man of valor!
So what is so wrong with Peter’s idea? All he did was want to honor three men, and to mark the occasion. Let’s give Peter some credit here. He meant well, no doubt.
So, tell me. What went wrong here? What is the fuss all about? Moses, Elijah, Jesus. These three.
If you answer this one- you’ve come a long, long way in your understanding. I’ll pause here for you to consider… (Selah!)
Have your reached a conclusion? Do you know the answer to this? What is wrong with a booth/tabernacle/memorial to these three? Sounds like a plan to me.. Except………-
There is ONE among them who is greater than Solomon. -Yes, friends- who would that be?
For you see, Moses is a man and only a man. Elijah is a man and only a man. Jesus (the Annointed) is ADONAI. LORD. He is G-d incarnate. He is not in the same league with these men for He is their Creator, and Soverign Master of the Universe(s). Far above all principalities and powers- here on this earth, -the very earth He created and owns, things above the earth- (angels worship Him) and things beneath the earth. He now holds the keys to death and to life. He is the ONE, dear friends, who conquered death, sin and the grave. He is the ONE who created and then thoroughly defeated and dethroned hasatan, the fallen angel of light.
Have we forgotten who Jesus is? Yes, – we have. You think He is a man? You are right- He is. He is the carpenter’s son and yet- He is the virgin born Son of Mary. Do you have any other friends who are virgin born? lol!- I think not. No,- He (and He alone) is Christ,- our Savior and our LORD.
Worthy, worthy, worthy of our prostrated worship. We too will fall at His feet in adoration when we see Him.
I love my wife, and love her dearly. I love my children and would gladly give my life for them, but they are number two in my priorities, for anything I love more, serve more or value more than G-d is an idol, including my wife, my children or my parents. YHVH comes first. Not prominence, but pre-eminence. He does not occupy a special spot in my life- He is my life. I am my Beloved’s and He is mine. Glory!
Now- because I am His, I am able to love my wife, my children and my parents with a love that does not come from me. This love has a Source. It is Calvary’s love. I will love them (all) unto death, for that is what my G-d did for me. He loved me unto death- and beyond.
Amazing love- how can it be? That Thou- My G-d, would die for me?
Now who was it, dear friend.. -Who was pinioned to the tslav? Who did we crucify on that day?
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on Me, the ONE they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn Son.” (Zechariah 12.10) “See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.” (Isaiah 49.16)
There is a Man in Heaven we will have no trouble recognizing when we see Him. He will be the ONE with the nail-scarred hands. How may we honor Him today? “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13.35). “Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.” (1 Peter 1.22) Calvary’s love- once again. This is how He loved us, unto the bursting point- straight from the heart.
We do have another example of this extreme commitment to Yah in the Torah-one even more extreme than Yeshua’s command to hate, one that involves the slaying of brothers and friends if they are opposed to Yah. Remember the idolatrous incident of the golden calf shortly after the children of Israel came out of Egypt.
Exodus 32:26-29 reads: “then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said: ‘Whoso is on the LORD’S side, let him come unto me.’ And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them: ‘Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.’ And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. And Moses said: ‘Consecrate yourselves to-day to the LORD, for every man hath been against his son and against his brother; that He may also bestow upon you a blessing this day.”
If we have trouble hearing Yeshua’s word to hate your brother let us ask ourselves if we could have obeyed Moshe’s command to kill them?
Yeshua: “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.”
Moses: “Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
MS: “We do have another example of this extreme commitment to Yah in the Torah-one even more extreme than Yeshua’s command to hate”
MO: Moses orders his followers to kill innocent people but does not say to hate them; we can love our enemy and kill them for the love of God, but you cannot hate them for the love of God. It is illogical.
Hate and Hell have something in common 🙂
who is that Michael??? jan
That’s me 🙂
Michael, you will have to explain yourself further on that on because i was not thinking of you when i asked that question but please do enlighten me on why (that’s me) it is you… ??? jan
Hi Jan,
I thought you meant “who said that” and my answer was nobody
I meant that hatred and hell go hand in hand
Not sure about the logic of your logic. I wish now that I didn’t drop out of Logic 101 in college! I just know I would rather someone hate me than slay me!
Also logic doesn’t always play into man’s religious practices. Take the Muslims who for the love of Allah hate all those who do not bow to him and are willing to slay them- including children, women and babies.
And remember there are even brothers and sisters who Yeshua warned that will both deliver us up and kill us.
Mat 24:9 Then will they deliver you up to be afflicted, and will kill you: and you will be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then will many be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another.
Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against [their] parents, and cause them to be put to death.
And just to add to your perplexity, consternation and “problems” consider David’s plea in Psalm 139:21 O LORD, do I not hate those who hate you, and despise those who oppose you? I absolutely hate them, and they have become my enemies!
And even YHWH the “G*d of love” can hate men. Consider this verse in Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
I don’t mean to offend you Michael -just help draw you out of your “Hollywood” vision and version of Christianity.
Thank you Michael Stanley for putting forth these truths & saying what you have said so eloquently – GOD HAS & DOES HATE – JESUS HATES SIN ALSO (but maybe not the sinner). i hate sin & i hate to see people sucked in by sinners & call it loving them – people need to use some wisdom here.
AGAIN, JESUS DOES & DID NOT “HANG OUT” WITH & CAROUSE WITH SINNERS – HE HATED THEIR SINNING & HE INVITED THEM TO COME FOLLOW HIM & SOME DID & SOME DIDN’T – HE OFFERED THEM ETERNAL LIFE, SALVATION, DELIVERANCE & HEALING & TOLD THEM TO GO & SIN NO MORE.
PEOPLE PLAY WITH FIRE & CALL IT LOVE – CAUSE IT GIVES THEM AN EXCUSE TO FOLLOW ALONG & DO WHAT I TRULY DON’T KNOW – I SEE IT SO MUCH IN THE WORLD – I WOULD RATHER BE AT ENMITY WITH THE WORLD THAN WITH CHRIST – STAY AWAY FROM THE WORLD’S WAYS & HAVE SOME WISDOM ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE AN IMMATURE CHRISTIAN… ♥
BUT WHO WILL LISTEN TO THE WISDOM OF OTHERS WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE THEM – NO ONE, THEY WOULD RATHER GO THEIR OWN WAY & HAVE TO SUFFER RATHER THAN LISTEN & OBEY THE SCRIPTURES & ADVICE OF THOSE WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE THEM & EXPERIENCED THE PAIN THAT THEY INEVITABLY WILL SUFFER ALSO…
I GET SO GRIEVED BY ALL I SEE GOING ON IN THIS WORLD & SOME RIGHT BEFORE MY EYES DAILY HERE ON THE WORLD OF THE INTERNET – I ALSO KNOW THAT IF I AM GRIEVED THE WAY I AM – I CAN ONLY IMAGINE HOW MUCH THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT RESIDES WITHIN ME IS GRIEVING BECAUSE SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE MY HEART & GUTS ARE GOING TO FALL OUT… 🙁
jan
“Take the Muslims who for the love of Allah hate all those who do not bow to him and are willing to slay them- including children, women and babies.”
Hi Michael Stanley,
Whether you are a Muslim, Jew, or Christian, if you have hatred in your heart, it can lead to such things as killing innocent people
And I don’t think we need a course in logic to know that we cannot love God and hate others at the same time
And Jan, to hate sin for more than a second or two is to focus on sin and to focus on sin is not to focus on God; and God is pleased most when we are praising him
Yahweh is a jealous God who does not want us to focus on other false gods (hatred)
Yeshua commanded his followers to love one another and their enemies (not hate other people)
David was a terrible man, full of self hatred, who killed a loyal friend to steal his friend’s wife
We sympathize with David and admire his relationship with God, but he is not a model to emulate
Unless, psychologically speaking, we want to end up in a state somewhere between heaven and hell
Michael,
“Take the Muslims who for the love of Allah hate all those who do not bow to him and are willing to slay them- including children, women and babies.”
Hi Michael Stanley,
Whether you are a Muslim, Jew, or Christian, if you have hatred in your heart, it can lead to such things as killing innocent people – SO GOD REALLY DID HATE BECAUSE HE KILLED THOUSANDS OF “INNOCENT PEOPLE” MEN, WOMEN & CHILDREN…
And I don’t think we need a course in logic to know that we cannot love God and hate others at the same time – OH, I THINK THAT IS VERY POSSIBLE BECAUSE GOD HATES SIN & PEOPLE ARE SINFUL BUT HE DOES HATE THEIR SIN & NOT THEM & YES, THERE ARE MILLIONS THAT LOVE GOD & HATE PEOPLE & FEEL IT IS RIGHT IN LINE WITH THEIR gods… SOME OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO ERADICATE THE JEWISH RACE ACCORDING TO THEIR GOD…
And Jan, to hate sin for more than a second or two is to focus on sin and to focus on sin is not to focus on God; and God is pleased most when we are praising him – THE ONLY WAY TO PLEASE GOD ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES IS WITH FAITH – THAT IS WHAT PLEASES HIM – WORD SAYS WE CANNOT PLEASE GOD WITHOUT FAITH… AND PRAISING HIM/WORSHIP MUST BE DONE IN TRUTH & SPIRIT WHICH A LOT OF THESE DAYS IS JUST ENTERTAINMENT & FLESH…
Yahweh is a jealous God who does not want us to focus on other false gods (hatred) SO WHEN GOD HATED HE WAS WORSHIPING A FALSE GOD???
Yeshua commanded his followers to love one another and their enemies (not hate other people) – THE WORD OF GOD STATES THAT IF WE ARE FRIENDS WITH THE WORLD WE ARE AT ENMITY WITH GOD; Enmity is a deep and bitter hatred, usually shared between enemies. (noun) JAMES 4:4
http://bible.cc/james/4-4.htm
David was a terrible man, full of self hatred, who killed a loyal friend to steal his friend’s wife – SO NOW DAVID IS A TERRIBLE MAN & FULL OF HATRED BUT A HERO OF THE BIBLE IN THE LINE OF JESUS… URIAH WAS A LOYAL FRIEND – HOW ABOUT A LOYAL SOLDIER TO THE HOUSE OF DAVID/ISRAEL – NOT SO MUCH A LOYAL FRIEND TO THE KING BUT HIS COUNTRY… DAVID ALSO SUFFERED THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS SIN – BASICALLY HIS HOUSE/LEGACY WAS CURSED…
We sympathize with David and admire his relationship with God, but he is not a model to emulate – I WOULD SAY PERHAPS MORE SO THAN HIS SON SOLOMON – THE WOMANIZER THAT HE WAS…
Unless, psychologically speaking, we want to end up in a state somewhere between heaven and hell – NOW THAT IS A STATEMENT I WOULD TRULY LIKE YOU TO EXPLAIN CAUSE I DO NOT GET YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS & CONCLUSION THERE… VERY INTERESTING STATEMENT 4 SURE…
J
Starting at the bottom…
Jan: “between heaven and hell” ?
Mike: In my mind, heaven is a state of peace and hell is a state of torment
Jan: “SOLOMON – THE WOMANIZER THAT HE WAS”
Mike: Solomon was known for his wisdom
Jan: URIAH NOT SO MUCH A LOYAL FRIEND TO THE KING BUT HIS COUNTRY
Mike: I agree, but that does not change the immoral and outrageous behavior of David
Jan: A HERO OF THE BIBLE IN THE LINE OF JESUS
Mike: Jesus was a Jewish prophet and a great man and David was a Jewish King and bad man
Jan: THE WORD OF GOD STATES THAT IF WE ARE FRIENDS WITH THE WORLD WE ARE AT ENMITY WITH GOD
Mike: John is saying that unless we want to hate God we should not be friends with the “world”; but he is not advocating hating anything but the world (a way of life oppsed to God)
Jan: SO WHEN GOD HATED HE WAS WORSHIPING A FALSE GOD???
Mike: No, God hates sin because it hurts us and him. But why would I want to hate sin? If I’m walking down the road with God where is the sin? I don’t want to think about sin, I want to think about peace and love and doing the right thing. When I start to think about sin, I want to stop and get on the right track as quickly as I can 🙂
Jan: THE ONLY WAY TO PLEASE GOD ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES IS WITH FAITH
Mike: My bible is about 2000 pages and in the first 1500 pages I don’t remember anything about faith. And Jesus wants us to do the will of his Father as I recall 🙂
Michael,
Starting at the top…
Starting at the bottom…
Jan: “between heaven and hell” ?
Mike: In my mind, heaven is a state of peace and hell is a state of torment – [jan] that is in your mind but in the reality of life – a prophet, a believer, a loyal yokefellow could be in a state of torment by what God/our Lord is asking them to do, to intercede for others, to give words/warnings to others, to rebuke, reprove, correct – even God’s work to a servant can be troublesome/tormenting to some extent – in other words, serving God & being obedient is not always a bed of roses – even Jesus’ life was tormented by many & He took on the torment of sin that we would be empowered to live above it or walk blameless by faith which is accounted to us as righteousness (that’s just the little that i know)…
Jan: “SOLOMON – THE WOMANIZER THAT HE WAS”
Mike: Solomon was known for his wisdom [jan] so what, what difference is there in Solomon & his father David – almost one in the same except that David was known for his integrity of heart & quickness to repent…
Psalm 78:70-72
70 He chose David his servant
and took him from the sheep pens;
71 from tending the sheep he brought him
to be the shepherd of his people Jacob,
of Israel his inheritance.
72 And David shepherded them with integrity of heart;
with skillful hands he led them.
Jan: URIAH NOT SO MUCH A LOYAL FRIEND TO THE KING BUT HIS COUNTRY
Mike: I agree, but that does not change the immoral and outrageous behavior of David [jan] you are correct, nothing changes the *consequences* of David’s immoral & outrageous behavior but repentance changes David’s heart & future actions/behaviors & turns him away from his sins – & in God’s mercy the consequences will be just & loving… the price we pay for repentance is never the same as what we are due because God is merciful & compassionate – even in the old Testament with Israel He would become so enraged & wrathful but then His heart would melt & take the whoring nation into His bosom once again – it was a way of life for/with God & Israel…
Jan: A HERO OF THE BIBLE IN THE LINE OF JESUS
Mike: Jesus was a Jewish prophet and a great man and David was a Jewish King and bad man [jan] JESUS YESHUA WAS THE MESSIAH NOT JUST A JEWISH PROPHET & GREAT MAN – WHO AM I TYPING TO HERE – AN UNSAVED MAN??? DAVID WAS HAND PICKED BY GOD/YHWH – HE WAS KING & A SINNER/BAD JUST LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT YOU BELIEVE WE ARE ALL TO LOVE BUT YOU DON’T SOUND LIKE YOU LOVE MUCH ABOUT A JEWISH PROPHET & GREAT MAN OR A JEWISH KING & BAD MAN… ???
Jan: THE WORD OF GOD STATES THAT IF WE ARE FRIENDS WITH THE WORLD WE ARE AT ENMITY WITH GOD
Mike: John is saying that unless we want to hate God we should not be friends with the “world”; but he is not advocating hating anything but the world (a way of life oppsed to God) [jan] do not nations & people live lives opposed to God??? the world is full of people – the world is people – their ways, their customs, their false gods, their idolatry – their unbelief in the ONE TRUE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISSAC & JACOB; many a people/nation were cut off because of their unbelief & idolatry – it is just not that cut & dry about hating & loving – again, their are two halves that make a whole – there is a balance in the world of hate v. love on the scales of life & you/we will never experience total love until the PRINCE OF PEACE/JESUS/YESHUA comes back & His feet rest on the Mount of Olives… their is a tension of life that pulls against itself with hate on one side & love of the other…
Jan: SO WHEN GOD HATED HE WAS WORSHIPING A FALSE GOD???
Mike: No, God hates sin because it hurts us and him. But why would I want to hate sin? If I’m walking down the road with God where is the sin? I don’t want to think about sin, I want to think about peace and love and doing the right thing. When I start to think about sin, I want to stop and get on the right track as quickly as I can
[jan] i hate sin because HE hates sin & i am supposed to be like HIM – i am supposed to emulate HIM – i am supposed to imitate HIM – HE hates & HE loves & so do i – you will never hear me say i love everything & everyone – not possible unless you lie… unless you are blind there is no way you will not see or experience sin in this/your life or world – sin is all around us. if a person did not hate sin why would anyone want to change the world to be better & “less” sinful – like human trafficking – if you never acknowledge sin why would you ever want to help rescue anyone from the talons of sin, death, degradation if you can’t/won’t acknowledge sin – not a very stable way of thinking about sin – just to ignore it??? why would you need to think about doing the right thing if you do not acknowledge & deal with sin??? Exactly Michael, when you think about sin it prompts you to not sin or suffer the consequences so you get back on the right track of not sinning – seems you don’t like to be held accountable for your sin so you just deny there is a sin problem anywhere – especially the world & it is all love & kissie kissie – that is not the world we live in – so where are you???
Jan: THE ONLY WAY TO PLEASE GOD ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES IS WITH FAITH
Mike: My bible is about 2000 pages and in the first 1500 pages I don’t remember anything about faith. And Jesus wants us to do the will of his Father as I recall [jan] are you kidding me – first off, what Bible are you reading – the Old Testament/Covenant is full of faith from the end to the beginning & the New Testament/Covenant is also full of faith & how people acted in/with faith to do the will of God/Jesus…
okay – just looked in Strong’s Concordance & it is showing the only 2 scriptures in the OT are Deut 32:20 & Hab 2:4 for “faith” but the word “faithful” starts in Num 12:7 & is mentioned 28 times until the NT – so you tell me what word was used in the OT instead of faith – was it trust – what kept the Israelites going/moving out when they did not know where they were going most of the time – what was that feeling of following others into the unknown & trusting God to lead them – did that require faith or to be faithful or the faithfulness of God to know best for them – i don’t know – you tell me your thoughts about this faith issue in the OT – what was the word they used for faith because i know they exhibited faith???
Hebrews 11:6
New International Version (NIV)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
btw: Shabbat Shalom & Faithful Yom Kippur… ✡✞
hey michael, look what i found over in today comments
“The Last Word of Life” regarding faith by A.W. Bowman
October 8, 2011 at 8:48 am:
“If one seeks after the face of God and obedience to His commands, he/she may or may not reap abundant earthly blessings and rewards, but a place in the “world to come” is assured. **This requires great faith, as demonstrated by the heroes of the Bible attested through their lives – and many by their manner of death!**
Hi Jan,
Very well stated! And I enjoyed reading your reply very much 🙂
And I don’t really disagree, but would just say that we see things somewhat differently
Again, to oversimplify, I would say for example that David acted like a bad man
But God chose David for greatness anyway (is anyone ever really forgiven for murder?)
On the other hand, Jesus acted like a great man throughout his life from what we know
For me the Jewish “faithful” implies loyal, or trustworthy, or most dependable
Like Job
I work with a man named Deepinder who is very holy and dependable
I know that what he says and what he does are the same, but he does not require my faith
I don’t think God requires my faith; in my view he wants my attention
And he wants my actions to be in line with his will 🙂
Hi Jan,
Very well stated! And I enjoyed reading your reply very much 🙂
And I don’t really disagree, but would just say that we see things somewhat differently
Again, to oversimplify, I would say for example that David acted like a bad man
But God chose David for greatness anyway (is anyone ever really forgiven for murder?)
On the other hand, Jesus acted like a great man throughout his life from what we know
For me the Jewish “faithful” implies loyal, or trustworthy, or most dependable
Like Job
I work with a man named Deepinder who is very holy and dependable
I know that what he says and what he does are the same, but he does not require my faith
I don’t think God requires my faith; in my view he wants my attention
And he wants my actions to be in line with his will 🙂
Well okay Michael, i guess this scripture means nothing to any of us – especially you, “Hebrews 11:6
New International Version (NIV)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
???? maybe more later – going to bed… 🙂 jan
Well okay Michael, i guess this scripture means nothing to any of us – especially you, “Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
Hi Jan,
Well you are getting to know me pretty well 🙂
11/6 is my birthday and I must admit that Hebrews 11:6 means almost nothing to me
To say “without faith it is impossible to please God” begs the question “what is faith?”
And the statement “I believe, therefore I’m OK” is false IMO
And to say we “must believe that he exists” can also be false
In what sense does nothing/God exist?
And in my case I didn’t really believe and he came to me anyway
With my daughter
But, as we have recently been discovering, if faith means “doing wht God asks”, then of course it is impossible to please HIm if we don’t do so, and that would mean that without “doing what He asks” we do not exhibit faith. In Hebrew, it’s pretty simple. It only gets complicated when we introduce the Greek distinction between “saying” and “doing.”
Well, Michael – let’s try it this morning:
Michael
October 8, 2011 at 11:44 am
Hi Jan,
Very well stated! And I enjoyed reading your reply very much THANK YOU SIR, GLAD YOU TOOK PLEASURE IN IT/ENJOYED… ♥
And I don’t really disagree, but would just say that we see things somewhat differently YES, I TOTALLY AGREE THAT WE SEE MOST THINGS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENTLY & IRON SHARPENS IRON ONCE AGAIN… http://www.flickr.com/photos/flygirljc/1445565143/in/set-72157603566115498
Again, to oversimplify, I would say for example that David acted like a bad man TRUE BUT NOT ALL THE TIME
But God chose David for greatness anyway (is anyone ever really forgiven for murder?) MURDER IS NOT THE/A UNFORGIVABLE SIN – I HAVE LEARNED IT IS UNBELIEF IN JESUS AS MESSIAH – GOD’S SON THAT WAS SENT FOR OUR ATONEMENT/PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS – TO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM COMING FOR US IS UNFORGIVABLE IN GOD’S HEART…
On the other hand, Jesus acted like a great man throughout his life from what we know – DO YOU KNOW HIM/JESUS – DO YOU *KNOW* HIM INTIMATELY – DO YOU HAVE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM AT ALL??? DO YOU CONVERSE WITH HIM & LISTEN TO HIM WHEN HE SPEAKS TO YOU??? IS HE YOUR FRIEND??? HE CAN BE… ALL THESE THINGS TO US IF WE WILL BUT ACCEPT HIM & CULTIVATE A RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR MASTER GARDNER… HE WILL UPROOT THE WEEDS IN OUR LIVES & REBUILD US WITH CLEAN TURF & MOW/PRUNE US REGULARLY TO HELP US GROW & OTHERS WILL HELP WEED & TILL OUR GROUND/OUR HEARTS & WATER US & THE “SON” WILL SHINE ON US & WE WILL GROW UP TALL & STRONG AS GREAT OAKS & WE WILL BE WELL WATERED BY HIM ALSO – HIM WHO CAUSES THE BLESSING OF HIS SON & RAIN ON US… I GUESS I GOT OFF ON THE BLESSING OF RAIN BECAUSE IT IS FINALLY RAINING HERE IN A DRY & THIRST LAND OF DROUGHT IN OKC/OK – A GENTLY LOVING RAIN THAT I AM STILL ENJOYING THIS MORNING AS MY HEART CRIES OUT WITH THANKFULNESS…
For me the Jewish “faithful” implies loyal, or trustworthy, or most dependable – I ONCE DESCRIBED MYSELF IN A LETTER/FORM OF APPLICATION AS A LOYAL PERSON – WONDER IF THEY EVER TOOK NOTICE OR SEE ME AS THAT??? SORRY ABOUT THE BUNNY TRAILS THIS MORNING… ♥ 🙂
Like Job – OH MY GOSHEN – I PRAY I NEVER AM TESTED LIKE JOB WAS…
I work with a man named Deepinder who is very holy and dependable – FAITHFUL AS YOU SAY ABOVE…
I know that what he says and what he does are the same, but he does not require my faith HOW DO YOU KNOW HE DOES NOT REQUIRE YOUR FAITH – HE MAY REQUIRE BUT YOU DON’T KNOW THAT HE DOES BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE THAT ARE FAITHFUL ARE OR DO SO BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN SOMETHING LIKE GOD/JESUS OR A PERSON – WHOM ARE FAITHFUL TO THEIR OWN CAUSE OR PASSION – JUST BECAUSE HE/DEEPINDER DOES NOT SAY TO YOU HE REQUIRES YOUR FAITH DOES NOT MEAN HE DOESN’T – IT IS GIVE & TAKE – WE DO NOT FOLLOW GOD/JESUS BLINDLY – WE DO SO BECAUSE WE READ OF HIS FAITHFULNESS, HIS LOYALTY, HIS DEPENDABLENESS, HIS LOVE FOR US IN THE SCRIPTURES/TORAH… YES, WE REQUIRE THE TRUTH OF HIM IN TORAH TO BE FAITHFUL & RECEIVE FAITH – TO WALK BY FAITH & NOT BY SIGHT – TO DO SERVE HIM WHEN WE SEE NOTHING IN SIGHT BUT BY FAITH WE HAVE RECEIVED…
I don’t think God requires my faith; in my view he wants my attention TO GIVE GOD ATTENTION WE MUST HAVE FAITH HIM THAT HE IS GOODNESS, LOVE, PROTECTION, BLESSING, ALL THAT HE IS TO US REQUIRES FAITH TO GIVE HIM ATTENTION OTHERWISE WHY WOULD WE WANT TO GIVE HIM ATTENTION IF WE DON’T HAVE FAITH IN HIM – JUST LIKE A PERSON IN OUR LIVES THAT WE MAY NEVER SEE NOR TOUCH BUT WE HAVE FAITH IN THEIR MISSION(S) & WE GIVE ATTENTION TO THAT PERSON BECAUSE OF OUR FAITH IN WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN LIFE & FOR HIM… I WOULD SAY ATTENTION REQUIRES FAITH OR AT LEAST IT DOES WITH ME…
And he wants my actions to be in line with his will TRUE STATEMENT 4 SURE & WHEN OUR ACTIONS ARE NOT IN LINE WITH HIS WILL – HIS MERCY IS GRANTED IN FAITH BECAUSE HE KNOWS US & HE KNOWS THE END FROM THE BEGINNING – HE HAS FAITH IN US AS WE HAVE FAITH IN HIM TO DO THAT WHICH IS REQUIRED OF HIM BECAUSE HE ALSO HAVE GIVE US A MEASURE OF FAITH & SOME A GIFT OF FAITH… ROMANS 12:3 & THIS LINK
http://agapegeek.com/2011/01/18/understanding-bible-faith-your-faith-is-measureable-part-3/
ROMANS 12:3b…as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
HOPE THIS HELPS SOME & FORGIVE MY BUNNY TRAILS THIS MORNING…
JAN
By the time I was a senior in college, I had read quite a bit, and thought Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov was the greatest novel ever written
But I did not care for Paul
Now i think Dostoevsky had Paul in mind when he created the brother/character with the following lines:
“There is only one salvation for you: take yourself up, and make yourself responsible for all the sins of men. For indeed it is so, my friend, and the moment you make yourself sincerely responsible for everything and everyone, you will see at once that it is really so, that it is you who are guilty on behalf of all and for all. Whereas by shifting your own laziness and powerlessness onto others, you will end by sharing in Satan’s pride and murmuring against God.”
– Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
“What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love.”
– Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
Michael & Skip,
The Agapegeek Blog
http://agapegeek.com/2011/01/02/understanding-bible-faith-the-genesis-of-faith-part-1/
Faith is one of the requirements for Salvation.
Faith was a hidden spiritual concept until revealed by God.
Faith is the spiritual power to move physical or spiritual obstacles or obstructions.
Faith is a spiritual defense against the spiritual power of your enemy Satan.
Faith pre-existed the New Testament but was only formally revealed to us after Jesus died on the cross.
Faith was active in the Old Testament but never directly identified to be faith.
God used faith to create the world so God had faith before time existed.
Therefore faith existed with God eternally.
I just taught you several very key basic elements that are essential to understanding the spiritual subject of faith found in the Bible. This was just a basic introduction to the subject of faith so I hope you can continue to read and study this subject as I am able to continue it with God’s help. God Bless!
If you would like to continue reading in this series, you can continue to “Part 2“.
http://agapegeek.com/2011/01/06/understanding-bible-faith-your-faith-is-the-determining-factor-to-you-being-made-whole-part-2/