Nyquil Sheol
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53 NASB
Who had fallen asleep – Matthew is the only gospel account that includes this very odd event. You would think that bodies coming out of tombs would have left a memorable impression on many believers and would have been included in at least some of the other gospels. But there is no record of this anywhere else. If that weren’t strange enough, notice the timing of Matthew’s record. The text suggests that these saints (in Hebrew – holy ones) came out of the tombs at the death of Yeshua but didn’t enter the city until after the resurrection. What did they do for those three days? Can you imagine the terror of seeing formerly dead people wandering around for several days? And what happened to them afterward? Matthew says nothing more. As R. T. France notes, this text “leaves plenty of unanswered questions for the historically minded interpreter.”[1]
We may never know whether Matthew intended this to be symbolic of the new life in Yeshua or whether he was actually reporting such a strange event. We will leave those questions behind because we want to concentrate on an implication in Matthew’s statement; an implication that suggests the common Christian idea of death isn’t quite what the first century authors may have thought. The Delitzsch Hebrew Gospels translation of this verse says that these saints were “sleeping in the dusty ground.” The metaphorical use of the term “sleep” means, of course, that they were dead and buried. But notice the implication that these people are asleep. They are not extinguished, eliminated or extinct. In the same way that Yeshua approaches the son of the widow of Nain and the daughter of Jarius, we find that the dead are not really dead. They are asleep. Paul uses the same terminology. What we discover is that the Jewish view of life does not end at the grave. Of course, Christians also believe in a life after death, but it seems to me that we treat the dead very differently than the kind of treatment we see in the gospels. To be asleep is to still be present, but unconscious. That is very different than being “departed.”
It seems to me that the idea of the sleeping dead is much more in line with the Old Testament concept of Sheol. Sheol is the place of the dead. Everyone goes there when they die. The population of Sheol is waiting for Judgment Day. While they wait, they sleep.
When I have a really bad cold, I take Nyquil. Something amazing happens when I go to sleep. I do not dream. I simply close my eyes and then, eight hours later, open them. I have no awareness at all that time has passed. What if I drank Nyquil and slept for a week. Without dreams I would have no sense of the passage of time when I woke. I simply went to sleep one day and woke up on another day.
What if Sheol is like Nyquil sleep. What if we simply go to sleep (die) and then sometime later, perhaps thousands of years later, we wake. From our perspective, we have merely been waiting without any consciousness of the time. The only ones who are aware of the length of time we have been dead are those who are still alive. Perhaps the idea of Nyquil sleep is much closer to the biblical idea of death than we imagine. After all, doesn’t Yeshua speak to the dead as if they are simply asleep? Doesn’t He actually say that the daughter of Jarius is just asleep when everyone knows she is dead? Doesn’t He just wake people up?
Now I know that there is the strange comment to the “thief” on the cross. Someday we will have to deal with that one. But in the meantime, doesn’t sleep portray the biblical view of death far more accurately than our contemporary idea of extinction?
Topical Index: death, sleep, Sheol, Matthew 27:52-53
But then there is the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man which gives another side to this. I sure don’t have the answers. To us who are here in time anything on the other side of death is basically hypothesis and theory. I do know that I don’t have to worry about it because of who holds it all in His hands.
How about addressing the Christian view of heaven? My 18 year old son is turned off by what is presented as being feminine. He perceives it as boring. I know we are told that we can’t imagine the good He has for us so it can’t be boring. From what I see the scriptures teach that we will live on this earth that has been renewed, not out in or beyond the clouds.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. It makes a point about compassion. It is not a doctrinal teaching about the nature of the the afterlife.
I can sympathize with your son. The only imagery we usually have of heaven is blond, female angels singing hymns. I have also felt that if heaven is going to be that boring, I would rather not be there. But our cultural imagery missing the point entirely. Heaven is the place of God’s presence and God is the ultimate Creative being. I have no doubt that being in His image without the shackles of sin will allow each of us to express our intended maximum creativity. And there won’t be any blond females angels to distract us.
That is what I told him recently. I also told him that I think we’ll have the ability to REALLY explore and learn the Creator’s creation. I DO NOT think that the life beyond what we know now will be boring. We really are not told that much about it other than there won’t be any more death and all that is associated with it.
“And there won’t be any blond females angels to distract us.”
“What if Sheol is like Nyquil sleep.”
Hi Skip,
As a long time allergy sufferer myself, the “Nyquil Sheol” metaphor resonates deeply 🙂
When I first moved into my condo, away from house and family, a couple of years ago
I experienced a prolonged period of time in which my sleep was like a “black hole”
I was out of work at the time
And I would wake up in the morning, not knowing where I was or where I had been
Typically when I wake up, my mind feels like it has regenerated; I take a walk and feel good
But during that period, when I woke up and came to my senses, I often wondered if I were dying
It seemed to have had something to do with being out of work and away from my family
Then the other night I had a dream about a woman I had worked with 25 years ago
She was married and I was single, but if she had not been married, she seemed perfect to me
In any case, I had a dream the other night in which I saw her at Target
When I saw her in the dream, I had an overwhelming feeling of love for her
And when I woke up, all my normal aches and pains and stiffness of old age were gone
I felt very limber and light
And I wondered if she were an angel in Hevean, with black hair and brown eyes
Michael, i didn’t read your post until after i had posted my reply about the blonde haired angels…
how funny – now you have a black haired brown eyed angel ministering to you to make you well…
Then the other night I had a dream about a woman I had worked with 25 years ago – MY QUESTION IS AFTER THIS DREAM THE OTHER NIGHT (HOW LONG AGO I DON’T KNOW & YOU DON’T SAY) – ARE YOU STILL HEALED – STILL FEELING NO ACHES, PAINS & STIFFNESS & STILL FEELING LIMBER & LIGHT??? I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW… ♥
I experienced a prolonged period of time in which my sleep was like a “black hole” And I would wake up in the morning, not knowing where I was or where I had been But during that period, when I woke up and came to my senses, I often wondered if I were dying… THIS IS AN AWFUL FEELING I’M SURE – I DIDN’T EXPERIENCE THIS FEELING WHILE SLEEPING OR UPON WAKING BUT AS I WAS WALKING AROUND FULLY AWAKE – I WOULD HAVE THOSE SAME FEELINGS – I THINK THEY ARE CALLED ANXIETY ATTACKS – I WOULD HAVE TO PRAY THROUGH THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE/ARE SCARY & FRIGHTENING TO SAY THE LEAST – BUT GOD BROUGHT ME THROUGH TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CRIPPLING FEAR TO HIS SWEET PEACE & ASSURANCE THAT ALL WOULD/WILL BE OKAY & THAT YES, HE IS IN FULL TOTAL CONTROL – ESPECIALLY IF WE RELINQUISH THAT CONTROL TO HIM – WHEN WE COME TO HIM IN PRAYER & ASK HIM TO HELP US THROUGH HE IS FAITHFUL TO DO SO… ♥
ARE YOU STILL HEALED – STILL FEELING NO ACHES, PAINS & STIFFNESS ANXIETY ATTACKS?
Hi Jan,
I’m glad you asked 🙂
Actually a lot of the stiffness is gone, but the pains come primarily from walking my dog Max
There is nothing between the bones in my knees but nerves, so the pain comes back
I know ANXIETY ATTACKS well, but the demons lurking in the black hole can be to anxiety what a cap gun is to an atom bomb 🙂
But now Max is with me so the black holes have abated, I’m happy to say
But the Mem (Memory) and the Dalet (Door) are always there
Some great music can turn that into a good thing, like the following song by the Youngbloods (1969)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-CYWbfFoXY
Darkness, Darkness
Be my pillow
Take my head
And let me sleep
In the coolness of your shadow
In the silence of your deep
Darkness, Darkness
Hide my yearning
For the things I cannot be
Keep my mind from constant turning
Toward the things I cannot see now
Things I cannot see now
Things I cannot see
Darkness, darkness,
Long and lonesome,
Ease the day that brings me pain.
I have felt the edge of sadness,
I have known the depth of fear.
Darkness, darkness, be my blanket,
Cover me with the endless night,
Take away, take away the pain of knowing,
Fill the emptiness of right now,
Emptiness of right now, now, now
Emptiness of ri-ight now.
Darkness, darkness, be my pillow,
Take my hand, and let me sleep.
In the coolness of your shadow,
In the silence, the silence of your deep.
Darkness, darkness, be my blanket,
Cover me with the endless night,
Take away, take away the pain of knowing
Fill the emptiness of right now,
Emptiness of right now now now
Emptiness of right….
Oh yeah Oh yeah
Emptiness, emptiness
Oh yeah
Speaking of the Mem, which I like to thing of as water/memory/unconscious
My daughter was listening to the following song, by Ron Pope, the morning
A Drop in the Ocean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LCBkkSdjEo
A drop in the ocean,
A change in the weather,
I was praying that you and me might end up together.
It’s like wishing for rain as I stand in the desert,
But I’m holding you closer than most,
‘Cause you are my heaven.
I don’t wanna waste the weekend,
If you don’t love me, pretend
A few more hours, then it’s time to go.
And as my train rolls down the East coast,
I wonder how you keep warm.
It’s too late to cry, too broken to move on.
Still I can’t let you be,
Most nights I hardly sleep.
Don’t take what you don’t need, from me.
Just a drop in the ocean,
A change in the weather,
I was praying that you and me might end up together.
It’s like wishing for rain as I stand in the desert,
But I’m holding you closer than most,
‘Cause you are my heaven.
Misplaced trust and old friends,
Never counting the regrets,
By the grace of God, I do not rest at all.
and New England as the leaves change;
The last excuse that I’ll claim,
I was a boy who loved a woman like a little girl.
Still I can’t let you be,
Most nights I hardly sleep,
Don’t take what you don’t need, from me.
Just a drop in the ocean,
A change in the weather,
I was praying that you and me might end up together.
It’s like wishing for rain as I stand in the desert,
But I’m holding you closer than most,
‘Cause you are my
Heaven doesn’t seem far away anymore no, no
Heaven doesn’t seem far away.
Heaven doesn’t seem far away anymore no, no
Heaven doesn’t seem far away.
aooo
aooo
A drop in the ocean,
A change in the weather,
I was praying that you and me might end up together.
It’s like wishing for rain as I stand in the desert,
But I’m holding you closer than most,
‘Cause you are my heaven.
You are my heaven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-CYWbfFoXY
“And there won’t be any blond females angels to distract us.” GOOD – BECAUSE THAT GOES ON TOO MUCH ALREADY IN THIS LIFE – ESPECIALLY IN REGARD TO THOSE MEN FOLK WE LOVE SO MUCH… ♥
“won’t be any blond females angels to distract us”
Hi Jan,
About 20 years ago my wife and I were in Paris near the Eiffel Tower
I had just eaten a croque-monsieur (hot ham and cheese grilled sandwich)
And we went up to a our hotel room to sleep
That night an extraordinarily beautiful blond angel descended over my right shoulder
And started to raise me out of the room
It was a wonderful feeling until she turned into a horrifyingly ugly witch, which filled me with terror
It was like no other dream I had ever had, and I was sure glad my wife was with me 🙂
It was like an “alien abduction”
Michael, i would be sure & not ever eat another croque-monsieur (hot ham and cheese grilled sandwich) while in Paris again… 🙂 ♥
aren’t you glad you saw the truth before it was too late or woke up – what a dream to be like no other dream you have ever had – what did your wife say about that dream???
you didn’t answer my question about… MY QUESTION IS AFTER THIS DREAM THE OTHER NIGHT (HOW LONG AGO I DON’T KNOW & YOU DON’T SAY) – ARE YOU STILL HEALED – STILL FEELING NO ACHES, PAINS & STIFFNESS & STILL FEELING LIMBER & LIGHT??? I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW… ♥
Hi jan,
I responded, but it did not “moderate” so I am reposting below:
ARE YOU STILL HEALED – STILL FEELING NO ACHES, PAINS & STIFFNESS ANXIETY ATTACKS?
Hi Jan,
I’m glad you asked
Actually a lot of the stiffness is gone, but the pains come primarily from walking my dog Max
There is nothing between the bones in my knees but nerves, so the pain comes back
I know ANXIETY ATTACKS well, but the demons lurking in the black hole can be to anxiety what a cap gun is to an atom bomb
But now Max is with me so the black holes have abated, I’m happy to say
But the Mem (Memory) and the Dalet (Door) are always there
Some great music can turn that into a good thing, like the following song by the Youngbloods (1969)
Darkness, Darkness
Be my pillow
Take my head
And let me sleep
In the coolness of your shadow
In the silence of your deep
Darkness, Darkness
Hide my yearning
For the things I cannot be
Keep my mind from constant turning
Toward the things I cannot see now
Things I cannot see now
Things I cannot see
Darkness, darkness,
Long and lonesome,
Ease the day that brings me pain.
I have felt the edge of sadness,
I have known the depth of fear.
Darkness, darkness, be my blanket,
Cover me with the endless night,
Take away, take away the pain of knowing,
Fill the emptiness of right now,
Emptiness of right now, now, now
Emptiness of ri-ight now.
Darkness, darkness, be my pillow,
Take my hand, and let me sleep.
In the coolness of your shadow,
In the silence, the silence of your deep.
Darkness, darkness, be my blanket,
Cover me with the endless night,
Take away, take away the pain of knowing
Fill the emptiness of right now,
Emptiness of right now now now
Emptiness of right….
Oh yeah Oh yeah
Emptiness, emptiness
Oh yeah
Speaking of the Mem, which I like to thing of as water/memory/unconscious
My daughter was listening to the following song, by Ron Pope, the morning
A Drop in the Ocean
A drop in the ocean,
A change in the weather,
I was praying that you and me might end up together.
It’s like wishing for rain as I stand in the desert,
But I’m holding you closer than most,
‘Cause you are my heaven.
I don’t wanna waste the weekend,
If you don’t love me, pretend
A few more hours, then it’s time to go.
And as my train rolls down the East coast,
I wonder how you keep warm.
It’s too late to cry, too broken to move on.
Still I can’t let you be,
Most nights I hardly sleep.
Don’t take what you don’t need, from me.
Just a drop in the ocean,
A change in the weather,
I was praying that you and me might end up together.
It’s like wishing for rain as I stand in the desert,
But I’m holding you closer than most,
‘Cause you are my heaven.
Misplaced trust and old friends,
Never counting the regrets,
By the grace of God, I do not rest at all.
and New England as the leaves change;
The last excuse that I’ll claim,
I was a boy who loved a woman like a little girl.
Still I can’t let you be,
Most nights I hardly sleep,
Don’t take what you don’t need, from me.
Just a drop in the ocean,
A change in the weather,
I was praying that you and me might end up together.
It’s like wishing for rain as I stand in the desert,
But I’m holding you closer than most,
‘Cause you are my
Heaven doesn’t seem far away anymore no, no
Heaven doesn’t seem far away.
Heaven doesn’t seem far away anymore no, no
Heaven doesn’t seem far away.
aooo
aooo
A drop in the ocean,
A change in the weather,
I was praying that you and me might end up together.
It’s like wishing for rain as I stand in the desert,
But I’m holding you closer than most,
‘Cause you are my heaven.
You are my heaven
Michael, aren’t you the one that always talks about “the other”…
here is a video where the person/man says God is completely other…
I AM…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=239418426139028
“Michael, aren’t you the one that always talks about “the other”
“Here is a video where the person/man says God is completely other”
Hi Jan,
Yeah, I guess I picked up the “self/other” concept from Jean Paul Sartre and Jacques Lacan
With Yahweh serving as a kind of “Absolute Other” in my scheme of things 🙂
Regarding the video, I liked it a lot. Thanks for sharing!
I completely agree with you, Skip. When someone says of the ‘departed’ person “He is now with the Lord”, I think to myself, no, he is asleep, and will be with the Lord in his next waking moment.
Exactly! What use would it be to be resurrected in a physical body on earth, if in the time between our death and the resurrection we would be in ‘heaven’? I would protest against having to return to earth if this was the case!
YHVH is a God of restoration. I believe He will restore all things, back to what He originally intended from the beginning. We will have new bodies. There will also be a new heaven and a new earth. The new Jerusalem is coming down, we are not going up. To live in Gan Eden again will be anything but boring in my opinion. I believe that our imagery of both heaven and hell are fraught with pagan concepts, and the Eighth Day will be more than we can even ask or think. I can think of nothing more exciting then dwelling with YHVH and Yeshua being the Light!
You’re so right! The whole concept of your spirit / soul going to heaven after death is Platonic dualism covered in a christian coat.
One more thing, on Sheol, this seems much closer to the truth than burning flames unquenched. Thanks so much.
The idea of burning in hell originates in a misrepresentation of Isaiah 66:24. This is not hell, but a place on earth, where the bodies of apostate people will be, to their shame not being buried, but laying on a dumpsite, where there is always fire and between the rubble there are always worms. This probably is the valley Ben Hinnom, outside Jerusalem.
Theology is good in mixing texts after taking them out of context!
what do the scriptures say? ~ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments ~ (bad dream?) too much pepporoni pizza?
~ And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. ~ Ah, now the dream really gets bad..- now he is “tormented” in some “type” of flame..
We know how wild and crazy the Greeks can get- surely heaven is only a dream also and not a glorious reality. And the cross of Christ and the blood that was spilled- we’re only dreaming- right?
One more thing about Lazarus “sleeping” for four days. “Roll the stone aside,” Jesus told them. But Martha, the dead man’s sister, protested, “Lord, he has been dead for four days. The (imaginary) smell will be terrible.”
The dead (really dead?) man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, “Take off the (imaginary) grave clothes and let him go.”
Carl, something you may not be aware of about this story (not directly relevant to this discussion, but then again, maybe so). There was a commonly held belief among the Jews at that time (possibly even in some circles today) that the spirit of a person remained close to the body for 3 days after death. It was not unheard of for deceased persons to be raised from the dead within 3 days of their death; after 4 days, however, it was considered that the spirit had now departed (returned to YHVH) and that it was then impossible for a person to be raised (except in the final resurrection and judgement, which clearly some believed in as witnessed by Martha).
I believe that this is why Yeshua waited for 4 days before going to Lazarus’ tomb (whose Hebrew name, btw, was Eliezer – El (is) my ‘ezer) – to prove that he was not limited by their understanding of how the universe works and that, with God, anything (that is within God’s will and in accordance with his purpose) is possible. 🙂
Dear Carl,
The secret of Luke 16:19-31 is the word ‘parable’. Look at the context: In Luke 15 the Lord starts his teaching in parables: the lost sheep, than the lost coin, than the lost son(s), etc. B.t.w.: everything lost is found again. Than we come to Luke 16:19-31. Is this suddenly a picture of reality? No! And yes! No, because it’s a parable too. Yes, because of what it tells. Who is Lazarus? Who the rich man? The rich man is the pharisees and scribes. Nowhere Scripture tells us what his sins were. Feasting? Surely not: even Yeshua went to parties! Who is this rich man? Look at his clothes! purple and fine linen. That’s priestly garments! That’s the leaders of the priestly nation! That’s the pharisees and scribes. They loose their position along with the destruction of the nation by the Romans. The went, as a nation, asleep, in Sheol. They were there no more as a state, but had to suffer severely in the flames of 2000 years of holocaust. Terrible! Horrible! But it’s a warning. Listen to the resurrected one (once He is resurrected) Yeshua sadly knows they won’t listen (vs.31).
I believe in these verses Yeshua pictures Israels future if they reject the Son. So reality? Yes. But no picture of afterlife.
My daughter’s favorite song is called Paradise
By Cold Play
When she was just a girl she expected the world
But it flew away from her reach
So she ran away in her sleep and dreamed of
Para-para-paradise, para-para-paradise, para-para-paradise
Every time she closed her eyes
From Hamlet:
To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream;
Ay, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.
Good morning all, interesting discussion! I’ve wrestled with this subject and the seeming contradictions within scripture, ie; the statement to the thief on the cross and Paul’s statement in 2Cr. 5 in contrast to the term (as used in scripture) asleep. I ask for your forgiveness in advance if this post causes further confusion, it’s not the intent, but rather reconciliation of apparent contrasts.
There’s a parable that Yeshua gives that might shed some light on this subject. While this is a parable of the Kingdom, and we don’t often see it as a teaching on this particular subject, we can glean some insight into how Yeshua used the term asleep.
Mat 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
While I’ll leave the thrust of the parable alone for now, I will note that if we follow the “pattern” of it, we wind up back in the garden, for this is the 1st instance of an enemy sowing bad seed and men “sleeping”. I’m not saying that Adam was snoozin’ and cuttin’ z’s while the serpent was speaking to Eve, only that, while we know Adam was there, he wasn’t “active” in the discussion.
Consider that the term “asleep” may not have so much to do with a state of consciousness as it does with the ability (or inability) to interact, or “do” something that would make a difference. As men, we are given the task to “rule” while on this earth, and when we die physically our part is over, we can do nothing else here. We can petition, or even be conscious of events, but our ability to change the course of events has past. That is left to those who walk the earth, and the work of God in them.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
You can’t rule, if your asleep!!
Wow, just wow! thanks for that insight, it will be what I think on all day
Whoops!
That should have read, ” our ability to change the course of events has passed.”
SORRY!!
Thanks for this. I have come around to this way of thinking but I still wonder about the verse that says “to be absent of the body is to be present with God” but if there is no conscious passage of time I guess it’s a moot point.
Enjoy your insights very, very much!
The scriptures often speak of sheol in these terms, ie; the mighty are made weak, and they have lost their strength. While conscious (of time and events) they are powerless to do anything about the flow of that time and event. (no intercession possible physically) Apparently those who are absent from the body AND present with the Lord are in this state, conscious, yet removed from the activity of men on earth.
Again, I’m only putting this forward as a consideration, not “gospel” truth. 🙂
Interesting discussion today, as usual.
What Skip says speaks ‘yes’ to my heart. People have long asked if saints might be tired of running around without a body in heaven, (tho God the Father is not tired of it.)
Anyone care to comment on the Mount of Transfiguration where Moses & Elijah appeared with Jesus and He spoke with them. Jesus could have awaken them & then they went back to sleep?
What about Enoch who walked with God & then wasn’t for He took Him? Maybe a few are in the presence of God in a different way. Anything is possible, I know.
Maybe dreams aren’t allowed to be discussed here, if so just delete this & in future I will know. I won’t be offended at all.
When my sister died I was in very deep grief. It was like the loss of two people at once. Having lost our parents at a very early age, it was she who reared me. So it was a sister/mom combo loss to my heart.
One morning just as I was stirring awake (or thought so, the whole thing could have been dreamstate) I was suddenly taken somewhere. There was no sensation of moving or speed or anything like that, I was just suddenly standing in a small group of trees. Somone stood behind me & slightly to my right, but far enough back that I couldn’t see them. I didn’t for a second want to turn away from the sight of a sunlighted meadow in front of us. The one behind me was talking, or thinking, –I feel like it was a blend of both & I was listening. I was not allowed to be able to recall any of what was said, except for the brief part I am going to tell you now.
I was told to watch, & shortly a group of people dressed in white came into the clearing. They were talking & laughing among themsleves & such joy of fellowship I have never witnessed before! I saw my sister in the group.
Then I knew then it was time to go. Frantically I made a wish/request & instantly the answer yes/granted came to me. I wanted to take something with me from that place. The only thing I could take was a deep breath & I purposely held it as long as I could.
I came fully awake, still in my bed, & was concious of slowly letting air go out of my lungs. I even put my hands in front of my nostrils to feel it. I sat up, & the grief was gone. Genuine comfort, with real substance, has remained these many years.
What a sweet story, Dorothy. Comfort comes in unexpected ways.
Good word.
There are thousands of denominations and biblical interpretations, so I often wondered how we could ever really find the truth. Everything is just another interpretation, right? Well, it gives me hope to know that the abandonment of Torah, and the Greek/Roman view of death are historically adopted,… yet not very biblical. Some beliefs and actions ARE closer to truth than others. If the bible is pretty clear on a topic, yet millions believe otherwise, then I am encouraged to search the scriptures myself.
I can finally stop thinking that there is nothing left for me to discover.
Interesting word today…am still trying to wrap my head around it…especially with the other references in the Bible to heaven.
I also have a question about James, the author and Jesus’ half-bro…was he a Rabbi or just very well studied to be able to lead the church in Jerusalem?
Thanks
I don’t want to be asleep. I want to be with my friend Jesus. I want a hug from Jesus. Why would he make me wait a 1000 years to get a hug. I am not saying that I deserve a hug, I just want a hug or at least see Him smile at me.
But if – I stress ‘if’ – we should go to ‘sleep’ , we would not remember a thing or miss a thing while being asleep, because we simply are no part of history during that ‘time’ – like the blink of an eye: stop living – blink – being there again. In the meantime thousands of years might have gone by without me even noticing. I find it comforting to awake the same moment as David awakes or Abraham or Paul. Than we finaly meet Yeshua – together!!!! Than we may hug Him – together!!!! Nice thought.
I believe the disciples on the mount possibly saw a vision of the futere. Moses and Elias APPEARED to them.
Elijah never saw death, and Moses,… MAY have been resurrected early if Jude 1:9 is read that way.
So it could have been both Elijah and Moses in the flesh,… and also representative of Jesus’ unity with both the Law and the Prophets.
A couple of good reads on this subject is N.T. Wright’s “Surprised by Hope” and Rob Bell’s “Love Wins.”
More on the subject, especially the statement to the other man from the cross, is coming. An interesting problem with punctuation. Look for it in about a month.
Yea, I’ve noticed that just by moving the comma, it can change the entire meaning of Yeshua’s response to the thief.
I read “Velvet Elvis” and wasn’t a big fan, is “Love Wins” better? I don’t know if you happened to read Samir Semanovic’s “It’s Really All About God”, but they both have the same feel – emphasis on the gospel as a social movement, rebranding Christianity, ect.
Anything that N.T. Wright has written is excellent and well researched. Wright’s, “Surprised By Hope” breaks down, into a very readable and compelling nature, the real Christian hope, i.e., what likely early Christians believed, who were exposed to the presence of Yeshua or his immediate teachings, which is the whole of the Christion Sect of Judiasm, the early Christian community. Wright’s focus is First Century Jewish context with respect to NT/OT scriptures, i.e, plugging us into that culture 2000 years ago and trying to understand what the text meant to those humans and its relevence, to God’s covenent with the nation of Israel. Rob Bell also invites us to think outside of normal thinking. What Rob Bell does best is ask “questions”, in keeping with ancient Jewish methods of inquiring into slippery slope subjects, which border on mystery, and the unverifable. This is classic Seond Temple Jewish thinking and inquiry. Answering a question with a question, requires you to think!!! Rob Bell wants us to think, not just absorb church doctrine and dogma. Rob’s new book, “Love Wins” has raised many a petard amongst those whom claim Christian righteousness and absolute knowledge of the truth, i.e., about Heaven and Hell and the ultimate end of all humanity. Don’t read Rob Bell or N.T. Wright unless your mind is engaged and open to considering other then what you believe to be truth, as passed down to you. Or for that matter, don’t read Skip Moen, unless you want to to challenged in exactly the same manner!!! Shalom
Thank-you. That is exactly what I was wondering about,… the gist of what you appreciated about the authors.
I will be reading Rob Bell’s”Love Wins” book, since it is also suggested reading for my son in one of his classes. The only N.T. Wright (so far) that I’ve read was his bible study on the book of Galatians.
And, yes, I do have some baggage about some of this stuff.
Just some thoughts on the subject.
In the ancient Semitic world there was such a fascination with death and the nether-world. It would be understandable that when God delivered them out of that fallen system of seeing the world and its overt focus on death and such, that there would be a focus on this life and how to live your life as a free people in loving God and one another as is revealed in His torah.
Even though the thrust of YHWH”s intention and revelation is about this life and how to live faithfully before YHWH who redeems, and because it does not explicitly talk about the next world and what all of that entails, it was from these same texts that the Pharisees derived their ideas about angels and the general resurrection from the dead and judgment that would happen at the end of the age. The Pharisees had a great influence on the common populace of Israel and their teachings regarding these subjects found connection within their lives.
In regards to the parables of the rich man and Lazarus. Why would Yeshua use concepts regarding the after-life if they did not have some commonality and resonance within the hearts and minds of His listeners? Even though the thrust of the parable was not about the after-life, but about how we live our lives in this life in response to the King and His kingdom. I believe that this parable at some point was a part of larger context and teaching on not worrying and focusing on what you are going to eat and drink and what you are going to clothe yourself in, but seeking first the kingdom and His redemptive activity.
How about this passage in Revelation.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before You will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
There is consciousness here and dialogue!
Even though the text of the Tanakh does not emphasize the after-life, it does emphasize that YHWH is faithful and that He does give what we need to live before Him faithfully and with His blessing. When we see that He has been faithful here to reveal Himself and we learn to live out what He has declared for the intent of our lives, then I believe we will begin to have a healthy balance and humility regarding the interim between our death and whether we have consciousness before the One who loves us and the final resurrection. I believe that Yeshua and the Apostolic Writings gives us hints and clues regarding the consciousness of those who have gone before.
I believe we need to note and take into consideration the Apostle Paul. When he is talking to the body of believers in Thessalonica he said in relationship to the Lord’s return.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen alseep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another wit these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (ESV)
Then Paul writes to the Philppians on a personal note regarding his own life.
Yes, and I will rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means frutful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Philippians 4:18b-24 (ESV)
In both of these accounts he is talking intimately! In regards to regards to the Thessalonians he is given them real courage in the face of real possible persecution which could lead to martydom. He is talking directly in their face to give them courage. This came directly as a word from the Lord. He was not given them sweet sounding metaphors of the after-life.
The second one he is talking about his own life and ministry. How could death be gain if he was in a state of unconsciousness? He even said, “My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” We need to take these two accounts from Paul legitimately and seriously. There is a legitimate and real sense of believers being with Christ.
On a personal note. This evening at 9:47 will be the seven year going “to sleep” of my beautiful first wife and beloved. May her name always be a blessing as it will always be to me!
Anyone out ther like to here a story?
I’d love to!!
OOps. . . sorry for the mistake above. Hear not here. I will share a story a little later.
I have no ax to grind or a whip to crack in relationship to whether I am right in my observations of the texts above. I am exicited to learn and open to being corrected and instructed in my journey of wrestling and grappling with the text of the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writngs. I do desire to trained for righteous living, resulting in effective service for the advancement of the King’s sgenda!
In relationship to the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Parables are effective because they do use images that are familiar with those who are listening. I believe it was the late Dr. Robert Lindsey of the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research, who believed that Yeshua was using humor in relating this parable to His audience. Was Yeshua using these images of the rich man in hell and his desire to have his thirst quenched and his brothers warned of this place of torment, and then the opposite, Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom being comforted as a caricature to make His point? Are we missing the point if we make these images an absolute picture of the after-life?
Regarding whether there is consciousness and awareness after death in relationship to the passages mentioned above in my first comments. Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians in giving them real courage in the face of real possible persecution and martydom? And then we have Paul’s personal and intimate portrayal of his own ministry and his desire to be with Christ as revealed in the letters to the Philippians? How about the believers in Revelation who had been slain for the word of God? Are these good questions or are we chasing after something that was never meant by these passages?
We need to put ourselves back into the shoes of the believers who first read these letters. These believers were facing serious situations and were looking for real courage and comfort and not some sweet sounding platitude of the sweet by and by.
Hints and clues of being conscious and aware of being with Christ after having fallen to sleep/death. Should we build a theology around these hints and clues? Or should we allow them to give us Holy Spirit courage and comfort in the face of the journey we all are going to make?
I would appreciate any dialogue regarding the questions and comments above. I still do have a story/stories I would like to share regarding my first wife and beloved.
In His Care, Brian
The history of theological interpretation is filled with allegorical exegesis. Just look at both the Christian and Jewish views of the Song of Songs. It’s very difficult for theologians to admit that the Song of Songs is an erotic love poem between a man and a woman, not necessarily married.
The heaven/hell debate will not be resolved until we are willing to open the floodgates to influences from outside the biblical text, but that doesn’t mean those influences are evil or wrong. It only means that the biblical text itself doesn’t pay very much attention to this matter. Since contemporary Christianity makes this whole issue the CENTER of its eschatology, we might reasonably ask why we are so concerned with the afterlife but the biblical account is so unconcerned. That reminds me of a comment by John Watson in his book on the ancient near east.
Skip,
I grew up in a body of believers who emphasized heaven and hell to the max. I do believe there is an unhealthy fixation of these matters within the body of Messiah. Forsaking the instructions and teachings of our Father as revealed in His commands and believing that God’s instructions are no longer valid for today, we will then indubitably and unduly begin to go down the road of focus on the life to come. I do believe that the whole heaven and hell as emphasized within Christianity is a very me-centered gospel and is a very gross picture that bears false witness to the God of Israel.
My reply is not in regards to influences that have shaped the theology of the Christian church regarding heaven and hell (even though we need to be vigorously intentional in our understanding of where those influenes came from). My intention was in bringing up the text itself and its surrounding environment. Why did Paul write what he wrote to the believers in Thessalonica and about himself to the Phillipians congregation? That passage in Revelations speaks of awareness and dialogue. Historically their has been an allegorical understanding to the Song of Songs instead of a love poem between a man and a woman. Are we to look at these passages from Paul and John allegorically? Should we not take them for what they are worth? There is a definite frame within the Apostolic Writings of speaking of death as going to sleep and the resurrection as in waking up. It does not emphasize the in-between time. I do believe though that there are hints and clues regarding and awarenes and consciousness of those believers who are dead yet are actively present in some mysterious way with Christ. Should I build a theology around this? Of course not! I do believe that these clues and hints are markers for living with courage in the midst of the terrror of life in the here and now.
Again the emphasis of the Apostle Writings is the death and the resurrection of our bodies and an account giving for the deeds done in our bodies. We should also live with that emphasis.
I read John Waltons book very quickly and with a lot of enjoyment. I will go back and read it slower
and pay attention to the details regarding the afterlife.
Walton’s crucial point is the most ANE cultures focus on death, therefore they have robust visions of the afterlife. But the Hebrews focused on life and the God of life. Therefore, they have little if any concern about the afterlife. Judgment happens but it is function of righteousness and justice, not a fire insurance policy.
This whole area is a Christian ( and I do not mean to limit that to evangelicals) sacred cow. It is so threatening to most believers to contemplate the possibility that they may simply sleep, completely unconscious, until the return and the judgment. You’re right. The focus is on ME. I want my life to continue so I project immediate presence with the Lord. Death is simply a moment of door-opening rather than expectant waiting in hope of righteousness. Imagine the shock if you answered the evangelical question, “Where will you go when you die?” with the biblical “Into the grave, of course.”
Skip … I have aften puzzled over the subject of cremation rather then a normal burial and how this might play out at the resurrection. Do you have any thoughts on this?
N. T. Wright’s book Surprised By Hope, pp. 171-172, under the heading, Paradise.
I therefore arrive, fourth, at this view: that all Christians departed are in substantially the same state, that of restful happiness. Though this is sometimes described as sleep, we shouldn’t take this to mean that it is a state of unconsciousness. Had Paul thought that, I very much doubt that he would have described life immediately after death as “being with Christ, which is far better.” Rather, sleep here means that the body is “asleep” in the sense of ”dead,” while the real person—however we want to describe him or her—continues.
This state is not, clearly, the final destiny for which the Christian dead are bound, which is, as we have seen, the bodily resurrection. But it is a state in which the dead are held firmly within the conscious love of God and the conscious presence of Jesus Christ while they await that day. There is no reason why this state should not be called heaven, though we must note once more how interesting it is that the New Testament routinely doesn’t call it that and uses the word heaven in other ways.
If the text can be interpreted one way or another,… then maybe some light can be shed on the topic by looking at the nature of man.
Are we dualistic? Is there a conscious spirit trapped in our body that retains it’s conscious once the body ceases functioning?
Or, is the body PLUS the breath (translated spirit) = “a living soul”, or the essence of a person.
Matthew 10:28, Ezekiel 18:4, Psalms 146:4 , ect – are interesting because they suggests that there is no inherently immortal part of a person. Only God can grant immortality.
Gabe,
How are you doing? I am in the midst of teaching my daughter, so this will be a brief response.
I believe man by the breath of God became an animated being. He is a human being only in relationship to the One who created him and doing what He reveals. I do believe that God is the only Immortal Being.
My question is in regard to the passages that I referenced above. Is there a sense and hint that those who go “to sleep” are in some viable awareness of the presence of the living Christ? To emphatically state that there is no awareness or consciousness to those who have died, I believe, does not give enough weight to these passages by Paul and John. There are hints and clues, not the full story. And should we build a theological paradigm with these passages? Of course not! That was not my point. We need to see these passages within their own space and time, and from that place discover how those first century believers would have heard and understood. This is what have been trying to communicate. And I realize it must fit within the overall thrust of the revealed word of God.
Please if you have any more comments, I would love to continue the conversation. What do you think about the passages that I wrote about?
I got a feeling that is why God references it as the “olam” (over the horizon). I would imagine that even if we were told, we wouldn’t get it.
There’s that adage about trying to describe to a two dimensional creature (width and depth) what up and down is. It isn’t going to go too well!! 🙂
Hey Brian,
I take the 1st Thessalonians text as a direct reference to the second coming (Setting aside for the moment Paul includes himself with those living when it happens). My understanding would be that this text supports the “sleeping”, since both living and dead meet Jesus at the same time. So they are not, as comforting as it is to some, “up there watching over us” right now.
I think a plain reading of the Philippians text, by itself, WOULD suggest a more direct ascension to heaven, not “sleeping”. But there are more interpretive gymnastics involved in immediate ascension, than in death as sleep.
I can speak to more of your references a bit later in the day.
Brian,
The verses you gave in Revelation 6:9-11, do seem to say that some, at least, of the dead are conscious. If there were not other verses that conflicted, I would take the Revelation verses at face value, and apply them as literally and widely as possible. But given what has already been talked about here, there is good reason to take a second look.
So first, those mentioned seem to be a sub-population of martyrs — these may be small in number and some of those resurrected that appeared in Jerusalem after Jesus was resurrection (or at another time?) Matthew 27:50-53
However, just like the parable of the rich man and Lazarus — there is imagery that seems symbolic and not literal. For instance, are they really stored under the alter?
I also think of Genesis 4:10 – A literal story, with symbolic dialogue, ” He said, “What have you done ? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground. ” I never really took this as blood forming an actual mouth.
Anyways, it’s not very neat and clean — but just some thoughts.
Gabe,
I was thinking about our conversation this morning and these thoughts came to me from the book of Genesis.
God breathed into Adam and he became a living, animated, and speaking being. The breath of God was His gift of life to Adam. Adam stands as a man from both worlds, heaven and earth! And because of God’s breath he has become intimately connected to both. When Adam functions in obedience to serve/tend the earth, he is living out the image of God as a human being in worship to his Creator.
The breath of God is what animates Adam and gives him consciousness and awareness. It is only by His breath that he lives. The Jews have prayed as well as Yeshua the rabbi from Nazareth for centuries “Into your hands I committ my spirit.” Why do they say this? Why do they not say into your hands I commit my body?
The breath that God gives is what uniquely makes and sets man/woman apart as the image of God in the world. No other creature has this distinction. This breath returns back to the One who gave it upon death. Does this breath that returns to its Creator have consciousness and awareness? I believe that there are hints and clues within the Biblical text that would answer in the affirmitive. Explicitly stated? No! Yet implied with a promise of rest before the living presence of God, awaiting the day of judgment and the resurrection of the body.
In relationship to the symbolism found in the book of Revelation and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Symbolism is always pointing toward a “reality” that cannot be easily or neatly described by words. Symbolism is not literal, but it is describing a “reality” that is beyond the scope of words and their ability to adequately capture it. The blood of Abel crying out, as you related to above, is a great picture of pointing toward a “reality” that is greater than words. There is really something going on behind the symbols that they are using. Why would Yeshua and the Biblical writers use this way of communicating, if it did not have a place of resonance within the hearts and minds of the listeners?
Thank you for sharing in this dialogue. In His Care, Brian
For me to say that I believe that we will have consciousness and awareness before the One who loved us and gave Himself for us is not to embrace the futility and centrality of the whole heaven and hell theology of the Christian church and its me-centered approach. Our awareness and consciousness will be focused on Him and not ourselves.
I would like to share a story.
When my first wife passed away or went to sleep a little over seven years ago on the 24th of this month, I had some extraordinary experiences that cannot be easily explained. The night of my beloved passing and the intense pain and release. . . I had to relate this to our little three year old daughter. It was late, so I decided to wait until the next morning. In the early morning hours, as I was in the process of waking up, I heard my beloved singing to me, “Knowing You Jesus, knowing You, there is no greater thing.” How does one explain this to make it believable? Yet I know it was my beloved who was imparting strength to me for the sharing with my daughter and for the days ahead.
On the evening of her wake (this a day right before the actual funeral where others can come and give their condolences), I had another out of the ordinary experience that was confirmed by two other brothers in the Lord. I was speaking to my beloved, as she was laying there in the coffin, I was again releasing her to the Lord and telling her I would see her again soon. This is again may stretch some of you who are reading this, but I saw my beloved smile at me. . and this was confirmed by two other brothers in the Lord. One of the brothers was really tripping out! He thought that my beloved was coming back to life! I can give you the names and numbers of these two brothers to any of you who would like to call and talk.
I was looking intently on the King at this time and this was his business and not my own. During the wake, God was supernaturally sustaining me and empowering me. I was prophesying and sharing with every one that evening. I asked a question to a young couple that evening of when they were going to have a baby? This was unnerving for the lady, for she had just had a dream that she was going to have a baby or something to around and involving that subject, Yes, and they soon discovered they were pregnant. This was the wife of one of the guys who had seen my wife smile at me. These may be things that hard to believe or grasp, but alas, that does not take away the testimony of others and myself of what the Father was doing in my life at this time.
I was aware of what Rodney made allusion to in writing to Carl (above) in relationship to the Hebraic/Jewish idea that the soul/spirit tarries here for three days before it departs back to God. My experience bears truth to that idea. Another story regarding another person in relationship to this time with my beloved is with my mom. My mom heard Tammy singing to her at the grave site that day. The song was, “Sunshine On My Shoulders.” Who wants her address to verify this? Does this mean that myself and others were hallucinating in a place of deep grief and not perceiving “reality” the right way? Maybe or maybe not. The constant testimony of myself and others will bear truth to whether these stories are the King’s History/ His Story or my own and others imaginations and hallucinations.
My experiences and others bears truth to the hints and clues that are seen, I believe, within the revealed word of God, that there is consciousness and awareness of those who have gone on before. I will not build a theological persuasion around this, but I will hold it with tension and courage, as I wait with hope for the day of the resurrection from the dead.
Any comments and challenges would be appreciated.
In His Care, Brian
Brian,
the day my father died & they took him away (he had been dead several hours before i arrived & knelt beside him & he was still very warm with his eyes shut – he should have been rigid & cold after so many hours) – in the wee hours of the morning as my mother, my sister, myself & my now ex-husband & my only son were struggling with sleep – i heard my father speak to me (because my sister & my mother were deeply & fanatically grieving & i was not), he told me to tell my mother & sister that he was feeling a love that he had never ever felt before & for them not to worry – his voice sounded like a young man but still i knew it was my (earthly) father’s voice.
in the later morning when we were all awake & together in the living room i told my family there (the same i mentioned above) what my dad had said & the strangest thing happened, all of us fell to our knees & worshiped God/Jesus in tears of thankfulness, release & peace. something i will never forget & have never experienced before or since.
i also had an experience in the hospital when i had my one & only son – i had a medical issue that caused me to stay in the hospital a week more than i should have & i was praying for God/Jesus to heal me so i could take my baby & myself home. i remember i spoke these words to my mother, “i just want my healing that belongs to me,” & i said it with such confidence & faith that i felt the Holy Spirit come over me & i was bent over with pain & it left my body & i straightened up & the pain was gone. my mother told me she saw something move over me & my whole countenance change & i began to go up & down the halls of the OB floor i was on & was praying for people & witnessing. it was astounding to say the least – those are just two supernatural happenings from the Lord Jesus that have taken place in my life so i don’t doubt your experience at all. i have several other supernatural healings/happenings in my life besides these two… ♥
Brian,
I can’t really speak to your experiences, they sound wonderful, and they seem to have enriched your faith and carried you through a very tough time. I would not venture to say that you didn’t experience what you experienced. But I also believe that Saul DID see the form of Samuel the prophet after consulting the witch of Endor — and I do not believe it was actually Samuel.
I thought I saw my grandfather after he died – it was when I was about 12, and I’ve never had such a vivid experience since then,… but I do not believe it was actually my grandfather. It was grief, a “familiar spirit”, or something else. But for my part, I don’t see any communication with the dead as a positive thing.
I believe that God can accomplish the supposedly physically impossible. I believe he acts today in supernatural ways. But I also do not trust the senses. And when when senses and scripture come into conflict — scripture must be given a significant authority.
1 John 4:1 – “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. ”
1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 – “Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. ”
Now, I am not trying to apply all of these to your situation. However, these are the verses I have studied in trying to understand, and put in context, certain experiences people in my own family have had.
A few thoughts:
1. Consciousness of the dead and communication with them is to be taken seriously.
Leviticus 19:31 – ” ‘Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God. ”
2. Deception comes in the form of spiritual light.
2nd Corinthians 11:14 – “No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. ”
3. Saul seemingly sought out and found a way to communicate with a dead prophet — who seemed to correctly tell the future.
“1 Samuel 28:7 – “Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.”
4. I don’t think Saul actually talked to Samuel. It was either a God allowed deception, or a false miracle.
1 Kings 222:22 – “The LORD said to him, ‘How ?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ ”
OR
Revelation 16:14 – “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles.”
All this is not enough on it’s own, but I need to pick up my children from school. God bless!
Patrick,
Are you montoring Skip’s emails? I have a favor to ask you.
Gabe,
The text of Scripture is a sacred text that is telling a very particular God breathed story and His view and dealings with His creation. This story has limitations, in the sense that it does not cover every situational moments of His creation. WE need to bring that tension and understanding to the text and the characters involved.
In communicating that tension, there are events that happens in our lives that are not going to be explicitly seen in the text, but their implications can be brought into the story of Scripture and be judged whether it is faithful to the overall thrust of its message. We have to do this vigorously with others and the discernment of the Holy Spirit’s correction, training, reproving and teaching. Our lives do not happen in a vacuum and must be melded out within the borders of community and faithful living before God.
Now to approach some of the text you brought up. The text you brought up in relationship to Saul and his seeking out a woman with a familiar spirit. In the context of what I related in this story, I was not seeking for a familiar spirit with a woman or with anyone. I was telling my wife that, “she was released to go to the King and that I will see her soon.” In was in that context, that myself and two other brothers saw her smile.
The 2 Corinthians passage is Paul dealing with others who are proclaiming a different Yeshua than the one Paul proclaimed. I do not see where this would fit my situation.
Leviticus 19:14 does not even come anywhere close to my situation.
The passage in 1 Kings is dealing with Ahab and the false prophets. I was actually pursuing reconciliation at this time, because at times like this, all your issues with the families involved come to the fore. And unlike Ahab, I was not in defiance of the King.
The 1st Thessalonian’s letter admonitions seem to come practically from the believers who had already been lead astray concerning those who had gone to sleep.
How then does these passages weigh in regard to what I experienced with my first wife and any other out of the ordinary experiences that might come my way?
Beware of deception and the inclinations that I might have in seeking another spirit other than the living God!
I can surely take that warning with seriousness and sobriety.
The testimony that has come from that time was one of glorifying the Father and submitting to the name of Yeshua in the power of the Ruach HaKodesh.
I will continue to aim my life toward the conformity of Yeshua and the advancement of His kingdom, while voluntarily submitting to the teachings and instructions of our Father revealed in the commands of Torah.
In His Care, Brian
Jan Carver,
Thank you for sharing some of your history with God/Jesus. Many blessings in Yeshua!
Leviticus 19:31 is the reference I should have made above. I looked at every passage that I wrote about except for that one. My apologies for the wrong verse, but I did have the right chapter. Again my refrain still holds true to what I wrote about that particular verse.
Patrick, could you possibly fix that? I would greatly appreciate it.
Shalom to all!
Brian,
You have been very patient with me, and I appreciate your calm and inquisitive spirit during all this,… especially when it includes an experience so deep that involved a person you loved so dearly. I have only continued so far because of your request the ‘comment and challenges’ would be appreciated.
Just as food for thought:
1. The dead know nothing.
**Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 – “5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. ”
**Job 14:12,13 – “12 So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep. 13″Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! ”
2. The dead cannot celebrate,praise or remember God.
**Isaiah 38:18 – “For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness. ”
**Psalms 115:17 – “The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence ; ”
**Psalms 6:5 – “For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?”
3. The dead shall not return to their house.
**Job 7:10 – “As the cloud disappears and vanishes away, So he who goes down to the grave does not come up. 10 He shall never return to his house, Nor shall his place know him anymore. ”
(I understand that the book of Job is tricky to build theology from, esp. since God says later that what Job’s friends said about him was not correct. But, these are Job’s words — and God says that Job spoke rightly)
4. The thoughts perish.
**Psalms 146:4 – “His spirit departs, he returns to the earth ; In that very day his thoughts perish.”
5. David is saved, but dead and buried (not “looking down on us”, or “alive in heaven now”)
Acts 2:29 – “Brethren , I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.”
6. The dead regain consciousness at resurrection.
Matthew 27:52 – “The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised”
John 5:28, 29 – “All that are in the grave shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.”
7. Immortality is granted at the 2nd coming.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53 – “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
Gabe,
More than anything in this life I want to voluntarily submit my mind― thoughts and the use of my imagination unto the service of the King. I want my actions to conform to the advancement of His kingdom. This question of whether we are aware and conscious between the interim and the resurrection? The greater thrust of the Apostolic Writings is that there is a resurrection of the body and that we are going to give an account to the deeds we have done in our body. This should lead to awe and understanding that our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit and that they should be voluntarily submitted to the work of the Kingdom and for righteous living, so the world can see that the God of Israel is Holy and Distinct from all other supposed god’s and be drawn to His redemption, ruling, and reigning revealed through His people! (The three R’s above was beautiful used by Dr. Dwight Pryor in his teachings on the kingdom).
I am in the process of writting a response to the texts of Scripture that you shared with me last. It is rather extensive and I am not quite satisfied with it at this time. I will hopefully share sometime over the weekend. I do not want to take up too much space here and would appreciate others input on this subject. I am striving for the truth and am asking the Holy Spirit for illumination and understanding for He is truly the One who can lead us into all truth!
Shabbat Shalom!