God’s Rival
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever -“ Genesis 3:22 NASB
Knowing – What does it mean to know good and evil as God knows good and evil? That is apparently the threat involved in God’s concern. To be like “one of Us” somehow involves this kind of knowing. Why is this any threat at all? Isn’t God the Almighty, Sovereign, Omnipotent Ruler of all creation? Why would a puny man knowing good and evil make one molehill of difference to God?
The question is even more complicated by the fact that the verb here is yada’, the completely common verb for “to know.” Occurring 960 times in the Tanakh, it covers nearly every kind of knowledge associated with sensory data. It is the way human beings are in the world, before or after the Fall. We might have expected some other specialized verb here that would distinguish this particular kind of knowing from all the other common ways we gather information. But, no, the word is the same. So what makes this such a threat? What makes this “knowing” like “one of Us”?
Ellul provides the answer. To know as God knows is not just gathering facts or forming principles. “To be like God is to be able to declare that this is good and that is bad. This is what Adam and Eve acquired, and this was the cause of the break, for there is absolutely nothing to guarantee that our declaration will correspond to God’s. Thus to establish morality is necessarily to do wrong. This does not mean that a mere suppression of morality (current, banal, social, etc.) will restore the good. God himself frees us from morality and places us in the only true ethical situation, that of personal choice, of responsibility, of the invention and imagination that we must exercise if we are to find the concrete form of obedience to our Father. Thus all morality is annulled. The Old Testament commandments and Paul’s admonitions are not in any sense morality. On the one side they are the frontier between what brings life and what brings death, on the other side they are examples, metaphors, analogies, or parables that incite us to invention.”[1]
In other words, to know “like one of Us” is to determine for myself what is good and what isn’t. But this is God’s exclusive prerogative. It is never Man’s place to determine, to decide, to choose what is good and what is evil. That action, in any form, is sin because it asserts the independent moral judgment of Man.
When I was a teenager, I lived in a small community in Michigan. The church that I attended enforced a morality that included no dancing. They taught that dancing was a sin. Were they determining a morality independently of God? How many other examples can you think of where the religious community has “known good and evil” like “one of Us”? There is but one code of conduct and it is not ours to change as we please. You might laugh over the “no dancing” rule, but then what do you do about Sabbath? The “Lord’s Supper”? Christmas? Easter? Circumcision? The Shema? The marriage ceremony? Who “knows” what is good and evil now? You? The Church? Or “Us”?
Topical Index: know, yada’, good and evil, Genesis 3:22
Good questions?
THE MARRIAGE CEREMONY??? I DON’T REALLY GET SOME OF THIS – REGARDING MORALITY??? ISN’T THERE MORALITY IN THE TORAH??? MORES FOR THE SOCIETY OF THE ISRAELITES – I’M SURE THERE ARE… DIDN’T DON’T AT LEAST SOME OF THEM COME FROM GOD??? AREN’T LAWS LIKE OR THE SAME AS MORES/MORALITY OR AT LEAST LEAD TO THEM???
mores – Wiktionary
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mores
A set of moral norms or customs derived from generally accepted practices. Mores derive from the established practices of a society rather than its written laws.
WELL ISN’T THIS WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN GETTING AT ALL ALONG ABOUT THE CULTURE/HISTORY IS TO BE CONSIDERED IN OUR TEXT/WRITTEN LAWS/SCRIPTURES & NOW WE ARE THROWING THAT OUT???
THIS PARAGRAPH BLOWS MY MIND: “Thus to establish morality is necessarily to do wrong. This does not mean that a mere suppression of morality (current, banal, social, etc.) will restore the good. God himself frees us from morality and places us in the only true ethical situation, that of personal choice, of responsibility, of the invention and imagination that we must exercise if we are to find the concrete form of obedience to our Father. Thus all morality is annulled. The Old Testament commandments and Paul’s admonitions are not in any sense morality. On the one side they are the frontier between what brings life and what brings death, on the other side they are examples, metaphors, analogies, or parables that incite us to invention.”[1]”
AND IF THIS IS TRUE – HOW ARE YOU EVEN GOING TO MAKE A CHOICE OF RIGHT & WRONG FOR YOURSELF??? “In other words, to know “like one of Us” is to determine for myself what is good and what isn’t. But this is God’s exclusive prerogative. It is never Man’s place to determine, to decide, to choose what is good and what is evil. That action, in any form, is sin because it asserts the independent moral judgment of Man.”
DID ANYONE IN YOUR CHURCH OR GROUP WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP EXPLAIN TO YOU OR OTHER YOUNG PEOPLE WHY THEY FELT DANCING WAS A SIN – PROBABLY NOT. I DO NOT THINK DANCING IS A SIN BUT I THINK SOMETIMES IT MAY LEAD TO SIN – DIRTY DANCING FOR SURE. I THINK THAT IS JUST A PART OF THE FLESH THAT CHURCH/GROUP TRIED TO SPARE YOU/KEEP YOU FROM – LIKE DON’T TOUCH THE FIRE OR YOU WILL GET BURNED… I’M SURE ALL CAN UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT HERE…
I DANCE BEFORE THE LORD IN MY OWN HOME AND A FEW TIMES IN PUBLIC DAVID DANCING BUT THAT IS A FAR CRY FROM DIRTY DANCING FOR SURE – I UNDERSTAND WHY SOME PEOPLE GROUPS/ORGANIZATIONS CREATE CERTAIN PROHIBITIONS FOR THEIR YOUNG PEOPLE – BET SOME OF THOSE SAME ADULTS DANCED OR DANCE WHEN ALONE TOGETHER IN THE PRIVACY OF THEIR HOMES.
JUST LIKE THE STORY OF DAVID DANCING BEFORE THE LORD & THE WIFEY GETTING UPSET – I WOULD SAY THERE WAS WAY MORE TO THAT STORY THAN MET THE SCRIPTURES – DAVID COULD BE A WOMANIZER FOR SURE & WAS EXPOSED FOR SUCH – I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY HIS WIFE SAID & ACTED THE WAY SHE DID – IT WAS MAINLY ABOUT ALL THE YOUNG MAIDENS HE WAS PERFORMING FOR THAT SHE OBJECTED TOO… FOR HER IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DANCING BEFORE THE LORD BUT DANCING/PERFORMING BEFORE THE YOUNG WOMEN – FLAUNTING HIS STUFF YOU MAY SAY – HE WAS PRONE TO SUCH THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE IN THE SCRIPTURES… WE ALL KNOW THAT…
BUT SHE WAS CHASTISED HARSHLY FOR IT – WAS BARREN. SO – WAS SHE TO RESPECT THE OFFICE OF HER HUSBAND & KING & ZIP UP WITH HER FEELINGS – EVEN THOUGH SHE MAY HAVE FELT THAT WAY & IT MAY HAVE BEEN TRUE, SHE WAS NOT TO EXPRESS IT PUBLICLY OR MAKE A SCENE I GUESS YOU MAY SAY – ANYWAY AS FAR AS WHAT WE READ IN NON-HEBREW TEXT – SHE PAID FOR HER FEELINGS & EXPRESSING THEM OPENLY.
AFTER READING THIS PIECE – I FEEL TOTALLY NAKED WITHOUT ANY BOUNDARIES OR MORES TO PROTECT ME – I DON’T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON NOW… 🙁 I LIKE LAWS & I LIKE MORALITY/MORES – I FEEL MOSTLY THEY ARE IN PLACE TO PROTECT US NOT HURT US…
Bobbie forwarded my TW to a friend who wrote back that he didn’t understand this comment about morality. It is apparent that others do no understand it either. That’s because most of us are not careful with our words and are confused when careful distinctions are needed. So, here’s what I wrote back to clarify:
Bobbie Jensen forwarded me your comment and I thought it appropriate to reply directly to you. First, of course, you must understand Ellul.
In his work, morality is the enforced code of behavior provided to a society by some institution. It is not the result of a transformation of the heart. It is a matter of legal compliance accompanied by potential punishment. This is the current state of the marriage of the Church with the government, and it is for this reason that the morality of the society is fragmenting and collapsing. The influence of the Church on society as a whole led to passage of laws that enforce a morality not reflective of the hearts of the people. So today we see that the real behavior of the society is not uniform (although it never was even though institutions attempted to make it so). As the influence of the Church wanes, the truth emerges. Society’s past morality was merely a shell, not at the core of the people.
The Torah is not morality. It is an expression of the heart of those who desire to worship God. This is why Torah compliance without heart motivation is worthless. Torah is not applicable to everyone, although it is intended for everyone. It is applicable only to those who have been transformed since they are the only ones who can adopt it as their expression of worship. To enforce Torah by means of the sword is simply contradictory to everything about Torah – but, of course, in a legislated society, this is precisely what the institutions attempt to do.
With this in mind, Ellul is correct to claim that any attempt to legislate morality is sin. Why? Because such attempts replace the necessity of heart transformation with legislation, decoupled from the heart. That, by the way, is why the Church is inept today and why its attempts to recover the legal status of its past morality are worse than failures. What the Church should be doing is bringing people into the presence of the King – and guiding those with transformed hearts in their expression of love for Him. All the rest of the blustering about “morality” ignores the obvious – people who do not love God will not submit to Him no matter how onerous the penalties.
Does this clear it up?
Clears it up, and opens another topic. I love it.
I recently worked in a classroom for “emotionally disturbed” elementary students, and I remember reading a blurb about another teacher in a similar environment. He was constantly whispering prayers for his students and getting amazing results from his loving and prayerful approach. His comment about “prayer in the schools” was awesome. Basically, he said they could never outlaw his type of prayer.
If Christians want prayer back in schools, then they should go to school and pray. Why the need for legal compulsion?
ah, but “legal compulsion” provides CONTROL and control tells me who is IN and who is OUT
SO LEGALLY WITH PRAYER IN SCHOOLS DECLARED TO BE SO OR NOT – WE CUT OFF OUR NOSES TO SPITE OUR FACES. BUT AGAIN, THIS WAS NOT THE LAW OF THE TORAH – THE TORAH STATES THERE ARE TO BE NO OTHER GOD’S BEFORE US BUT THE ONE TRUE GOD OF ISRAEL… PRAYING TO/SPEAKING TO…
TO GABE: I’M SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE PRAYING ALL THE TIME IN SCHOOLS EVERYWHERE – THEY JUST WANTED TO BE ABLE TO DO IT PUBLICLY & NOT BE PERSECUTED FOR IT. AND THE LAWS TRYING TO REMOVE PRAYER IN SCHOOL WILL NEVER REMOVE IT – BUT IT HAS GIVEN US/THEM THE RIGHT TO INJECT ALL OTHER KINDS OF PRAYERS NOT OF GOD. IT IS A DOUBLE EDGED SWORD FOR SURE… lucifer IS A CRAFTY ONE…
AND I’M SURE THAT BUDDHA, ALLAH, ETC. ARE NOT THE ONE TRUE GOD OF ISRAEL – SO THAT LAW SHOULD & CAN STAND FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF ELLUL…
Yes, I’ve been a political junkie for most of my life — so it’s freeing to know that I can still hold my staunch beliefs about what is right, but I need not hold my breath waiting for politics to bring righteousness.
I’m not shirking my responsibility as a citizen, but every system of laws can be bypassed or misused by selfish hearts. The opposite is also true, even unrighteous and evil laws can be bypassed and used for good with a pure and Godly heart. (Thanks for the example Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.)
It’s curious that when Darius decreed “no prayer but to me for 30 days” Daniel didn’t walk around whispering to himself. He threw open the window and challenged the assumption of Darius’ self-proclaimed absolute jurisdiction. It was a test over Daniel’s commitment to Torah.
It was a full-on battle on whether the king could and should impose such a law. Though condemned in the court of the king, Daniel was vindicated in the court of the real King when it came time to test Darius’s self-proclaimed sovereignty in the lion’s den.
Maybe it’s time we all stopped whispering!
OH IAN HODGE – I SO TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU – WE SHOULD ALL BE TAKING STANDS & SHOUTING FROM THE ROOF TOPS – YES, WE HAVE COMPROMISED WITH OUR BATTLES – TO LAY DOWN & WHISPER LIKE ISRAEL DID IN THE HOLOCAUST – SEEMS THEY WERE CONFUSED AS SO MANY ARE TODAY.
SINCE WE HAVE LAIN DOWN & WHISPERED – WE WILL SOON, I’M SURE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO STAND UP & SAY NO & THEN HAVE OUR HEADS CHOPPED OFF FOR OUR BELIEFS & OUR STAND – WHAT A QUICK & SHARP SLICE OF THE KNIFE – NO SUFFERING – THE SUFFERING STARTED WHEN WE KEPT WHISPERING…
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE ANOTHER MAN IN THE FIRE & THE LION’S DEN WITH US…
“Does this clear it up?”
I’m not sure! All legislation – repeat, ALL legislation- is the enactment of a moral code. Man cannot live any other way but by a moral code. The question is which moral code?
If Torah is not morality, then what code are people to live by? Torah establishes, for example, a confined but necessary place for the civil magistrate – the adjudication of claims and the sentencing by Torah standards on the convicted party(ies). That’s an application of Torah.
When I go into business, and I say to my staff, “don’t steal from me” that’s an application of a moral code.
If I say to my friends “don’t lie about me” that’s the application of a moral code because we have to know the difference between the truth and a lie.
And when Yeshua says that even lusting after a woman in your heart is wrong, that’s an application of a moral code.
When folk get on this blog and make statements that this is right or that is wrong, it’s an application of a moral code.
Morality as a concept is not the problem. Man-centered morality – or man-originated morality – is a problem, as you recognize above.
The trouble in our age, as G.K. Chesterton wrote so well in his article “Conversion without a Creed” is that politics has replaced renewing of the mind, to borrow a phrase from Rabbi Sha’ul. No one any longer believes you can change society by preaching and teaching – except the missionaries who go to foreign lands where they wield no political power. Having denied God’s law, the churches have no where to go but to man-centered law through politics as the solution to the “human condition.”
The legitimate Levitical roles have disappeared from out culture precisely because Torah has been suppressed. Unless Torah is a moral code that confronts man with his sin, then he will continue to believe, as Australian’s like to say, “She’ll be right, mate,” and continue with their sin.
It is because Torah has been replaced by “heart-felt” rules of morality thanks to the enormous shift the European Pietists brought into Christianity, that the world is going to hell in a handbasket.
Conclusion? Ellul’s statements are incoherent. He says to “declare that this is good and that is bad. . . . there is absolutely nothing to guarantee that our declaration will correspond to God’s.” It is not the declaration of morality that is the problem. But Ellul seems a little skeptical that we can actually know God’s declaration – no “guarantee”. Therefore, he concludes, we should not declare at all. What kind of “guarantee” does he want before he will commit to a moral code?
Ellul throws us an epistemological red herring “we can’t know”. Red herring is not on my diet. 🙂
AGAIN IAN HODGE, I AGREE & APPLAUD YOUR STANCE ON ellul…
“Conclusion? Ellul’s statements are incoherent. He says to “declare that this is good and that is bad. . . . there is absolutely nothing to guarantee that our declaration will correspond to God’s.” It is not the declaration of morality that is the problem. But Ellul seems a little skeptical that we can actually know God’s declaration – no “guarantee”. Therefore, he concludes, we should not declare at all. What kind of “guarantee” does he want before he will commit to a moral code?
Ellul throws us an epistemological red herring “we can’t know”. Red herring is not on my diet.”
SOMETIMES READING & TAKING IN THESE KINDS OF WRITINGS ARE NOT BENEFICIAL TO OUR MINDS OR OUR SPIRITS… I AM NOT ACQUAINTED WITH RED HERRING & DESIRE NOT TO BE…
This is so important, and I think it is why God preserved the story in a way that looks like the serpent told the truth and God lied.
The serpent said they would “know(discern) good and evil”, and God seems to verify this.
God says they will “surely die”, and Adam lives on to be 900+ years.
The truth comes when you decide for sure that although it doesn’t look that way –God told the truth and the serpent lied.
Adam and Eve lost what was most important about life, what distinguished them from the animals, they lost their humanity by acting like beasts of appetite. But in our narrow view we think of a heart beating and brain functioning as = life.
What is God’s definition of life? Maybe the story of the prodigal son gives a clue:
“And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.” Luke 15:23-24
And as far as “discerning good and evil”, God spoke truthfully that they had usurped that position (“become like one of us”) in deciding what was good and evil — however, they/we are woefully equipped to take that position.
OKAY – IT HELPS SOMEWHAT BUT STILL NOT COMFORTABLE WITH IT – I SEE WHAT HE IS “TRYING” TO SAY BUT NO SURE IT WILL WORK & HASN’T…
In his work, morality is the enforced code of behavior provided to a society by some institution. It is not the result of a transformation of the heart. It is a matter of legal compliance accompanied by potential punishment. [THESE STATEMENTS/SENTENCES I AGREE WITH]…
This is the current state of the marriage of the Church with the government, and it is for this reason that the morality of the society is fragmenting and collapsing. [OKAY – I NEVER THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE FOR THE CHURCH TO BE MARRIED TO THE GOVERNMENT – WHY WE HAVE SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE. SO – THAT IS WHY WE CAN NEVER MAKE THIS PLACE/WORLD/GOVERNMENT BETTER BECAUSE IT IS NOT POSSIBLE – THAT IS WHY KING JESUS IS COMING BACK TO MAKE IT HIS GOVERNMENT [ON HIS HEAD] – THE PLAN]…
The influence of the Church on society as a whole led to passage of laws that enforce a morality not reflective of the hearts of the people. So today we see that the real behavior of the society is not uniform (although it never was even though institutions attempted to make it so). As the influence of the Church wanes, the truth emerges. Society’s past morality was merely a shell, not at the core of the people. [“a morality not reflective of the hearts of the people” – IN A GOOD OR BAD WAY???]
The Torah is not morality. It is an expression of the heart of those who desire to worship God. This is why Torah compliance without heart motivation is worthless. Torah is not applicable to everyone, although it is intended for everyone. It is applicable only to those who have been transformed since they are the only ones who can adopt it as their expression of worship. [I AGREE ALSO]
To enforce Torah by means of the sword is simply contradictory to everything about Torah – but, of course, in a legislated society, this is precisely what the institutions attempt to do. [WHAT ELSE COULD A SOCIETY DO TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THOSE WHOSE HEARTS ARE NOT TRANSFORMED BY GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT/TORAH???]
With this in mind, Ellul is correct to claim that any attempt to legislate morality is sin. Why? Because such attempts replace the necessity of heart transformation with legislation, decoupled from the heart. That, by the way, is why the Church is inept today and why its attempts to recover the legal status of its past morality are worse than failures. [THIS IS TRUE IN THE HOME/WORLD WE SPEAK OF THAT YOU CLAIM DOESN’T EXIST FOR US/BELIEVERS/FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST KING JESUS NOT MATTER WHERE IT IS OR HOW IT STARTS – IN THE AIR OR ON THE GROUND. SAYING AN ATTEMPT TO LEGISLATE MORALITY IS A SIN IS LUDICROUS IN THIS PRESENT WORLD. CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW BAD IT IS GOING TO GET & WOULD BE WITH NO LAWS OR PUNISHMENT – BUT THERE IS COMING A DAY FOR SOME OF US THAT WHAT ELLUL PERCEIVES IN THIS/HIS WRITING WILL BE TRUE WHEN; WE LIVE WITH KING JESUS – THE LAWS WILL FINALLY BE LIVED OUT BY THE HEAVENLY DIVINE SOCIETY]…
What the Church should be doing is bringing people into the presence of the King – and guiding those with transformed hearts in their expression of love for Him. All the rest of the blustering about “morality” ignores the obvious – people who do not love God will not submit to Him no matter how onerous the penalties. [THAT DOES NOT TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT THE FALLEN WORLD & WHAT IS OBVIOUS]…
Does this clear it up? SOMEWHAT – WHAT LITTLE I HAVE READ IN THIS EXPLANATION SOUNDS JUST LIKE WHAT LIVING WITH KING JESUS IS GOING TO BE – FOR SURE NOT WHERE WE “LIVE/HOME” NOW… ♥
THANKS FOR THE EFFORT & UNDERSTANDING OUR REACTIONS…
Skip, I awe you an apology because I WAS WRONG about the verse Genesis 3:23. Although grammatically, both possibilities are available, viewed without bias, my Hebrew lecturer drew my attention to the picture given by the text. You were right on this point; the focus it seems is on the man here (Adam).
God’s Rival? Ludicrous thought. Listen (again, for the first time) only this time listen attentively to His words:
~ I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no Saviour. ~ (Isaiah 43.11)
~ I AM the LORD, and there is no other. There is no other God besides me. I will strengthen you, although you don’t know me.. ~ (Isaiah 45.11)
And again…- are these “my” words” “Who” is speaking here? “and besides Me -there is no Savior..”
and again..- (third time’s a charm?) “Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM God, and there is none else.” (Isaiah 45.22)
O soul, are you weary and troubled?
No light in the darkness you see?
There’s a light for a look at the Savior,
And life more abundant and free!
Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.
Through death into life everlasting
He passed, and we follow Him there;
Over us sin no more hath dominion—
For more than conquerors we are!
Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.
His Word shall not fail you—He promised;
Believe Him, and all will be well:
Then go to a world that is dying,
His perfect salvation to tell!
Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.
~ And let us (continuously) gaze at Yeshua, Him who is The Author and The Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was His, endured the cross and ignored the shame, and He sits upon the right side of the throne of God ~(Hebrews 12.2) ~ Because of this, God has also greatly exalted Him and He has given Him The Name which is greater than all names, that in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, and every tongue shall confess that Yeshua HaMashiach is THE LORD YHVH to the glory of God the Father. ~