God of Vengeance
“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both men and women, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” 1 Samuel 15:2-3 NASB
Utterly destroy – A woman from India wrote to me. “I do understand what you say that law and grace are NOT opposed to each other; that Moses and Jesus say the same thing. However, I am confused about all the killing God orders in the Old Testament – this is so opposed to the character of Jesus in the New Testament. Can you throw some light on this ?” Actually, I can (and I appreciated the use of the verb “throw” since it is also a violent act).
Jacques Ellul comments: “These things are unjust only according to our view of justice and unacceptable only to our mind.”[1] Ellul’s remark (regarding slavery in the New Testament) reminds us that we do not determine what is good and what is evil. In the thinking of the ancient near-East, whatever God does is good. Whether or not we understand the action or agree with it is completely irrelevant!
This seems shockingly unreasonable to us. But once we recognize that the thinking of Hebraic “ethics” is entirely different than our own, this shock allows us to raise the question, “Why are we so disturbed?” The answer is embedded in the presuppositions of the Western Greek worldview. In the West, ethical standards are determined by Man’s evaluation of the Good, the True and the Beautiful. Plato is the exemplar of this thinking. Through rational argument, his followers (that would be us) derive ethical principles that have universal and eternal value. These principles are then used to judge the behavior of any given individual. All of the legal system of the West is based on this kind of thinking. That’s why we have supreme courts with judges who are supposed to determine if any particular act is properly included within the universal standard. With this kind of legal system in mind, God’s actions are subjected to the same kind of evaluation, and when we discover that God instructs His people to “utterly destroy” even children and infants, we are repulsed, thinking that no person could justifiably do such a thing to “innocent” children. With our Greek glasses on, we reject such a God as unworthy of worship. But all of this depends on the false premise that we set the standard!
In the Ancient Near East, and in the Hebraic paradigm, what God does is the standard. God, by definition, is good. Therefore, no matter what actions He takes, they are, by definition, good. We must set aside our presuppositions concerning ethical standards derived from rational explanations and adopt the biblical point of view. There is no supreme court that judges God’s actions. There are no arguments we can mount against His morality. He is the standard, whether we like it or not. And if you don’t like it, then too bad. And if you don’t accept it, then you aren’t part of the biblical paradigm.
The modern world has a parallel in Islam. What Allah says is true. What Allah demands must be done, no matter what. There is no appeal, no argument, no negotiation. This is why the West will never reach a peaceful settlement with Islam. The West doesn’t share the same paradigm and is consequently entirely irrelevant to the will of Allah.
I realize that this is a hard transition to make, but it is not hard because it lacks biblical evidence or exegetical accuracy. It is hard because we don’t think like this. But who is mistaken? If God reveals Himself to us in this way, who are we to say, “Oh, no. That doesn’t meet my standard.” Can you imagine standing before the Judgment Throne and proclaiming that God’s verdict is wrong because it doesn’t meet your requirements?
“Utterly destroy” (in Hebrew haharamtem) comes from the root haram. It is used frequently to describe the total destruction of those in the Land as the Israelites entered. But in Leviticus 27:28-29, it is also used to describe complete consecration to YHWH. Perhaps this apparently contradictory use helps us to see that the act is not simply about destroying. It is about absolute commitment to whatever God requires. In paleo-Hebrew, the picture is a fence between a person and chaos. Contemporary jihad is precisely this: to utterly destroy the corruption of the West (the paradigm case of chaos) in absolute obedience to Allah. Once more we see that our standards mean nothing in this ancient world. What God asks, we are expected to do. Without question. Without hesitation. Simply because it is God who asks.
Topical Index: utterly destroy, haram, ethics, jihad, 1 Samuel 15:2-3
God is good. Period.
Yes, as long as we aren’t the ones who decide what “good” means.
Yes, Bessy, – all the time…- and to everyone! ~ For the LORD is good, His mercy (mercies are) is everlasting, and His truth endures to all generations. ← !
and as always, back to Scripture. Thanks Skip, for helping us walk this path through Scripture.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don’t be astonished that I said to you, ‘All of you must be born from above.’ (John 3.6,7)
~ For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace ~
~ For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live ~ (Romans 8.13
A difficult topic to explain to the once-born, but to those who know Him,- this will come easy.
FOR YOUR EYES ONLY:
“We have met the enemy and he is us”
We have (and have always had) three enemies. The world. The flesh. and the devil. These three remain. Today, we focus on what I (personally) believe to be public enemy #1- “me”. The man in the mirror. My flesh. Now for the task of illumination. Let us shine the bright light of the word of God upon “flesh”.
“Flesh” is who I am apart from or without God, a body without breath. A better word for “flesh” might be “self” or if you wish, “ego”. EGO- “Edge God Out”.
We, (the Greeks) have been taught: “look out for Number 1!”- Exceed, excel, -climb to the top of the heap, by hook, by crook- whatever it takes to be the best and he who dies with the most toys wins. Be all you can be, -and by whatever means necessary- no matter who gets stepped on or abused along the way.- Rise to the top, O mighty one!
Flesh- or “self” or “Amalek” is the enemy. It is the rotten cancerous part of me (and the part of you) that rebels against the ONE who has made me. It is hard to surrender to the ONE we are in rebellion against! Until we learn (at long last) to bow the knee, – oh!- how hard-headed and hard-hearted is the one who live within the body of “this flesh!.” Stubborn, stupid rebellious “self.”
A cancerous mole was not to long ago discovered on my arm. Yes, -it was, upon further investigation, found to be melanoma. After surgery, all that remained was a surprising scar from “here to there!” And now, several years later, – all that remain are a memory and a scar, but it is absolutely one of my “favorite” scars!- And when the doctor declared me to be “cancer-free”- I can guarantee, “the nine-hundred pound gorilla” was released that gloriously blessed day.
How much “cancer” would you tolerate in your own body? Would you “tolerate” a single drop of gasoline to be placed in your morning cup of coffee? Just one drop? Just one sin?- no thank you- I want my coffee to be unpolluted and to be pure,- the real deal.
Now what to do about “the flesh?” Or as Paul put it- “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” How do we deal with the one we cannot run from? (Lol!,-I have to live with this guy!)- and so does my wife, and my children, and my neighbors!
~And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts ~ (Galatians 5.24)
and the answer is: crucifixion. Not ours. His. When He died, “I” died. “I” died with Him, and was buried (immersed) in a liquid grave, then raised to walk in newness of life. – So long “self..”
~ For “you” died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God ~ (Colossians 3.3)
~ For we know that our old self (“I”) was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin ~
~ For “you” died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God ~ (Colossians 3:3)
This death is really good news! Why? Well tell me, just how would you “tempt” a dead man? – No can do.
But, Bob Dylan was right!- you gotta serve somebody!- ~and as for me and my house,- we will serve the LORD!”
This, most assuredly, is worth the time it takes to read it, and if I’m not mistaken will be a “keeper” for many who are wrestling with public enemy #1, (“self”). For those who are pressed for time (aren’t we all?) here is the “reader’s digest” version: ~ not I, but Christ! ~
Not I, but Christ, be honored, loved, exalted;
Not I, but Christ, be seen be known, be heard;
Not I, but Christ, in every look and action,
Not I, but Christ, in every thought and word.
Not I, but Christ, to gently soothe in sorrow,
Not I, but Christ, to wipe the falling tear;
Not I, but Christ, to lift the weary burden,
Not I, but Christ, to hush away all fear.
Christ, only Christ! no idle words e’er falling,
Christ, only Christ; no needless bustling sound;
Christ, only Christ; no self important bearing;
Christ, only Christ; no trace of “I” be found.
Not I, but Christ, my every need supplying,
Not I, but Christ, my strength and health to be;
Not I, but Christ, for body, soul, and spirit,
Christ, only Christ, here and eternally.
THIRTY-ONE KINGS, OR THE VICTORY OVER SELF (A. B. SIMPSON)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6591377/31-Kings-Victory-Over-Self-AB-Simpson
I really struggle with this one, particularly since the Crusades, the Inquisition, (and other such atrocities committed in the name of “God” or “Jesus”) found some of these OT incidents as their inspiration. Obviously, people don’t always reflect God’s love or intent. 🙂
Bad exegesis and application aside, one of the theories I’ve encountered that has made reconciling the “utterly destroy” passages with scripture about God’s unwillingness to let any perish easier is the Judeo-Christian teachings on the Nephilim. God’s orders to Israel to “utterly destroy” appear to be limited to cleaning out the promise land of the Nephalim and their descendents (see Gen 6 and the extrabiblical text the Book of Enoch for explanation of how they came to be in the first place). Thinking of these tribes as corrupted (not just in a normal human sinful way, but in the fallen angels trying to ruin God’s messianic plans method) makes total annihilation more palatable to my tender heart. Maybe this is just me trying to “feel better” about my skewed perspective on justice, but I’m trying to grow and wholly embrace God who is good in all that He does, even that which I don’t understand.
Skip, I’m pretty sure you’re familiar with this theory. I’d love to hear your persepective on it!
I think you already understand. Your intuition about “trying to make me feel better” is correct. Remember, these words have meaning WITHIN the culture. We have the tendency to read them OUTSIDE their own culture and then try to apply our definitions of “good” and “just.” It doesn’t work that way. Think like someone who heard these words on the day they were spoken.
ABIGAIL, THAT NAME ALWAYS BRINGS MY MEMORY TO THE STORY ABOUT THE WOMAN/ABIGAIL THAT LATER MARRIED KING DAVID WHEN HER MEAN OL HUSBAND WAS SO STUPID & DIES[D]…
FUNNY WHAT COMES TO OUR MINDS FROM THE SCRIPTURES…
Unconverted men justify their anger by referencing how Jesus drove the money changers out. Converted men just drive the money changers out. If I can’t see the difference, then I must pray for God to heal my blindness.
During the Inquisitions and Holy Wars, atrocities were committed in the name of God. Unconverted men used scripture to justify their greed or blood lust. What does this have to do with 1 Samuel 15:2,3? Nothing!
The breakthrough story for me was the actions of Phinehas as described in Numbers 25. At first I just saw a man who decided to love someone from the wrong ethnicity – getting stabbed along with his girlfriend by an overzealous fundamentalist. Then one day it hit me like a ton of bricks, what about the 24,000 who died from the plague this sin caused.
Why did my mind imagine more innocence in the guilty and more guilt in the innocent?
And another thing that bothered me, why did I always see Joseph as a young brat? Because the cartoons portray him as a self-righteous tattle-tale? Why did my perspective fit that of his brothers? My own interpretation of the story told which side I was on. Didn’t the religious elite see Jesus statements in the same way?
God is just, and I believe that the closer we get to him — the less frightening and strange his actions will seem….. even when he is shooting the suffering horse (or Canaanite).
Good insight Gabe.
~ His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will clear his threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn, but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire. ~ (Matthew 3.12)
LORD of harvest, grant that we, wholesome grain and pure may be.
~ To Me belongs vengeance, and recompense; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste ~ (Deuteronomy 32.35)
wow, finally an answer I can understand and the more I understand, the more terrifying I find this great God I serve.
God’s love vs. God’s righteousness. Fact: God’s love requires God’s justice.
God’s mercy in the O.T. may well exceed His mercy in the N.T.
God’s pouring out of wrath in the N.T. may well exceed His pouring out of wrath in the O.T.
In the greatest story of judgment in the O.T., God sent a flood to kill everybody except 8 people. But, mercy was extended, Noah preached of the coming judgment for 100 years while he was building the ark.
Another example, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, for their evil was a stench in His nostrils. How stinky were they? All the men of Sodom (young and old) tried to rape the two angels who came to warn Lot of the coming judgment, but were prevented when the angels caused blindness.
In many lesser known stories, God warned the people prior to executing judgment. Some of these warnings were taken and others laughed at, with the expected consequences.
Atheist’s commonly spew accusations of atrocity at God for killing whole peoples so that the Jews could have a homeland. Then they follow up with God can’t be loving or fair or worthy of worship.
They miss that it is for His faithfulness–and no wonder–they don’t know Him.
“It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)
To be fair, everyone is a sinner, so just how “wicked” could those people have been? How about killing their own sons and daughters by burning them in sacrifices to their gods. (Deut. 12: 31)
Ewwee! . . . horrible! but wait, hummmm, . . . er, that sounds like a legal, protected practice in America today. Called abortion. Saline abortions BURN the skin off babies in the womb. But the chopping up, and sucking the brains out is not a better alternative. How about let the baby have a birthday instead of a death day? And some of the very ones who practice this, the so-called “doctors”, call God mean and say He’s guilty of atrocities.
How about Revelation? Its in my N. T. There God will judge and kill billions of people who reject Him when Jesus returns, and be perfectly righteous for doing so. His grace and mercy are evident in the fact that He doesn’t kill us all, and long ago at that. Behold, what great mercy! How loving and kind is our God, There is none like Him.
And, in fact, I DO agree with God in His judgments, no problem whatsoever. I only rock my head back and forth in my hands in amazement that He chose to extended mercy to me.
I rather wish this teaching was titled: “God of Mercy” He’d rather save you than kill you. In fact, He’ll even die in your place if you but accept the deal.
Well said. I remember feeling so trapped in my sin that I thought, “God would be merciful to put me out of my misery, for my own good, and to stop me from hurting those around me.”. As evil distills and concentrates through generations, God is just and merciful to stop the avalanche.
I cannot believe that the Crusades and the Inquision were conducted by anyone who knew the Lord God. Just another bad rap, like “did God say?”.
People/history can claim anything they want to, but there is a test verse: Matt. 7: 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.”
Yep, works for me, I know them. No matter what they say, I see what they did.
Since this was sent as today’s word you are not just trying to answer the question from her perspective understanding are you? So I will ask my question straight out. Are you saying as the true and living God annihilated evil in the old testament, Allah within contemporary islam is justified?
From your last posts I am wondering how you connect the dots to Solomon asking to judge and administer justice to the people rightly, was that the next era?
Solomon did have a peaceful reign because of his father David, but it wasn’t the ultimate Kingdom.
What if the tree that Adam was not to eat from unless he live forever was actually Eve?
Remember, when we see Him we will be like Him! Our eyes will see and we will know ourselves as He does. (the accuser will be naked and exposed) I think he did steal my covering!:) Now restored from innocence to being ready for love. (and choosing rightly)
The desire of the nations will rule and reign as every eye and heart see the Bride and the Bridegroom in Love, high and lifted up everything bows to that love. There is no other prize there is no other seductions. They are sealed with Holy fire and they see as one. They rule and reign as hearts desire a love they have never known.
Dear Sharon,
Truthfully, I just can’t follow your thinking here. It seems to wander all over the place. I know that you are trying to communicate something about God’s justice, but for the life of me, I just can’t make all the connections you seem to see.
I can respond to one thought. Maybe two. How can you make the jump from God exercising judgment on unrighteous nations to the god of Islam? The god of Islam has almost no similar characteristics to the God of Israel. While both systems consider obedience to be the heart of faithfulness, Allah shows himself angry, vindictive, vengeful, intolerant, impatient and completely lacking in chesed. The God of Israel WAITS for a very long time before moving to action and those actions are forced upon Him as a result of holiness and justice. I see no rational argument for suggesting that Allah is like YHWH.
Secondly, very briefly, there is no basis at all for suggesting the Havvah is the Tree of Life. Where did that come from? If there is any connection to later developments, the imagery of the cherubim is only found in relation to the Torah. Beside, Havvah is just as much a sinner as Adam, so how can see be “eaten” to produce eternal life?
TO SKIP & SHARON…
“The modern world has a parallel in Islam. What Allah says is true. What Allah demands must be done, no matter what. There is no appeal, no argument, no negotiation. This is why the West will never reach a peaceful settlement with Islam. The West doesn’t share the same paradigm and is consequently entirely irrelevant to the will of Allah.”
PERHAPS THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE IS WHERE SHARON DREW HER CONCLUSION AND/OR QUESTION ABOUT ” Are you saying as the true and living God annihilated evil in the old testament, Allah within contemporary islam is justified?”
THE WAY WE READ AND/OR PERCEIVED THIS PIECE OF WRITING FROM SKIP ESPECIALLY IN LIEU OF THE ABOVE QUOTED PARAGRAPH – IT SEEMED TO ME YOU WERE SAYING THAT IS WHY THERE WILL NEVER BE PEACE BETWEEN ISLAM & THE WESTERN WORLD – MY PERCEPTION & TRUTH IS THAT THE REASON THERE WILL BE NO PEACE IS THAT ALLAH IS NOT THE ONE TRUE GOD OF ISRAEL/TORAH & NOTHING ELSE. ALLAH IS A FALSE god – NOT TO BE BELIEVED OR DECEIVED BY & THAT IS THE ONLY PROBLEM BETWEEN WESTERN & ISLAM.
AND TO DOROTHY – WEREN’T THE CRUSADES & INQUISITIONS BETWEEN ISLAM & CHRISTIANITY???
WAR IS WAR – MANY PLACES IN THE PAST & PRESENT HAVE BEEN ANNIHILATED BY MEN/WOMEN IN WAR BECAUSE OF GOD OR false gods. THIS TOO WILL PASS WHEN KING JESUS COMES BACK AT LEAST FOR A MILLENNIAL & THEN ETERNITY – WHY WOULD WE NOT WANT OR DESIRE THAT IN OUR WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN – OH HOW I LONG FOR THE PRINCE OF PEACE TO BRING PEACE… AND AIN’T NO MAN OR WOMAN GOINNA’ BRING PEACE TO THIS WORLD SO KING JESUS WILL COME BACK – THAT IS NOT THE PLAN…
I don’t even like so much as to hear ministries call themselves “crusaders” because of the deplorable actions of a band back in approximately A.D. 1095 to 1230. (I love Billy Graham, but wished he wouldn’t use the word. I simply hate some words!)
First of all, the crusades should not be referred to as the “Christian crusades.” Most of the people involved in the crusades were not truly Christians, even though they claimed to be. The name of Christ was abused, misused, and blasphemed by their actions. (which is what I said earlier today)
The crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately A.D. 200 to 900, the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Turkey was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam became powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and murdered the Christians living in those lands.
In response, the Roman Catholic Church and “Christian” kings/emperors from Europe ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken. The actions that many so-called Christians took in the crusades were still deplorable. There is no biblical justification for conquering lands, murdering civilians, and destroying cities in the name of Jesus Christ.
At the same time, Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.
The crusades were attempts in the 11th through 13th centuries A.D. to reclaim land in the Middle East that had been conquered by Muslims. The crusades were brutal and evil. Many people were forced to “convert” to Christianity. (now what TRUE followers of Christ thinks like that?) Those who refused to ‘convert’ were put to death.
The idea of conquering a land “for Christ” through war and violence in the name of Christ is completely against everything the Christian faith stands for.
“Christian Crusades” is an afront to the Holiness of God.
And trying to blame all the history of Christianity for the crusades is similar to blaming all Muslims for Islamic terrorism.
Jan, here is a good trustworthy site for info on the (cruel) Inquisions: http://www.gotquestions.org/inquisitions.html
As you can see, everything that calls itself “church” is not the bride of Christ.
Its not fair that everything gets thrown into one folder, but that seems to be how its lumped together.
Imagine Him dying for and making that group of torturers and hellions His called out people. *shudder*
Talk about going where I don’t want to go!!! I am not sure what God is “up to” in these texts. They puzzle me and as one of his creatures, there is no way I can reconcile them with Jeshua, at least according to the text as we interpret them and see them on the written page. The Goodness of God is put to prose and explained far better then I can ever do: see CS Lewis, “The Problem of Pain”, page 28-47. Putting a baby or innocent child to death, by command, is something I could not do!! I cannot reconcile this with the God I know (maybe God is saying YES!!) and as presented in the the complete Scriptures. This is not the same issue that Abraham faced, but one of war and plunder. God has tutored me to understand , “I ought and I ought not.” Could these texts have been intended as a kind of test for his creatures?? Will you do the right thing and reflect my image to this world?? May God’s Shalom be upon all of us and may it bring understanding.
While it is hard/impossible for us to know what God knows or understand His higher ways, God knows the future.
Tough as it is to swallow, –but faith in God being good and only good makes it go down– God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely get rid of the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God’s orders, the Amalekites would come back to “haunt” the Israelites again and again.
Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying for in only a couple of decades there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Sam. 30:1-2).
After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see Esther).
SO, Saul’s incomplete obedience (=total dis-obedience), nearly resulted in Israel’s destruction! God KNEW this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time.
For the Canaanites, God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deut. 20:16-18).
The Israelites failed to obey again, and exactly what God said would happen occurred (Judges 2:1-3; 1 Kings 11:5; 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3-4).
God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but rather to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.
ref. http://www.gotquestions.org
One of the problems is that when we see the pictures of “evil” before Noah’s flood – it’s drinking, gambling, a group mugging another group — ect. These things that can be pictured in a kid’s book, but is that really the EVIL that was so bad God had to wipe them out? No. It’s just what could be pictured in a kid’s book.
Also, what is the most evil things we see today? In Darfur, with machete killings and rapes? Still not as bad as then, or,… God would have judged them already.
Jesus said, “As in the time of Noah,….” — we haven’t gotten there,… yet. (Matt. 24:37)
I see Gen. 6: 5 as telling us exactly what the point of no return was and how it was reached. When there is only evil thoughts and nothing else, continually in man’s heart.
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (G. 6.5)
But, (prepare for my making a case for my pre-trib rapture beliefs)–at least listen–God does not make the righteous to go thru the wrath. God sent angels to remove Lot and his family, God saved Naoh and his family, He saved Rahab out of the city and her family, many more. Enjoy doing a search yourself.
I’ll throw out some other thoughts as time goes on, that you may or may not find interesting–some conclusions I’ve reached about a certain type of evil that goes on before the point of no return is reached.
I’d be interested in hearing those insights. We ought to pay attention to the signs of the times, as a faith-building activity, not necessarily for doomsday preparation.
SAVE & RESCUE – REMOVE & ESCAPE – THAT IS LOVE FOR SURE…
THANK YOU JESUS YOU ARE COMING TO SAVE, RESCUE, REMOVE & HELP US ESCAPE THIS EVIL WORLD VERY SOON…
God can do anything He wants, and He doesn’t even need my permission! Yes, I know, a preposterous thought but that is exactly what we do when we “question” God’s motives, designs, or purposes. As I recall, His ways are higher than my ways, His thoughts higher than my thoughts, (Isaiah 55.8) -so who am I to question the ONE who created universes, both macro and micro? -It just ain’t gonna happen folks,- no way- not this little creature.
When God says destroy, or build or tear down or plant what is our right response? When God says “don’t touch the ark”- what is our right response? “Faith” is our right-response to the word(s) of God. And again..- what is our right-response? (I’m gonna throw in a “selah” for free here…) -I’ll give you a moment or two to think this through..- When God asked (remember “na?”) Abraham to sacrifice his son, what was the right-response of Abraham? -It was (drum-roll necessary?) – obedience. Obedience every time and all the time. Need another testimony to this? Look at the life of Christ, a life of perfect submission and perfect obedience. (and perfect delight!) And what, dear friends, gives our Father great joy? What does any father, anywhere delight to see in his children? Obedience.
Son, “don’t play in the heavy traffic!” Oh, but dad!- I want to, besides I just don’t understand, -why not? Why, I’m almost eight years old now.. Surely, I won’t get hurt! Son, don’t put your hand on the burner, – it’s hot. Oh, but dad! OUCh!- I said it was hot. You wanna go for the other hand? Sin, (disobedience to the Father, children) is every bit as “stupid” and always damaging. And yes, we can even carry it to it’s conclusion- sin is a form of insanity.
What is the wisest thing any of us could do? Uh, obey God? Yes! and What springs out of obedience? Uh.. blessing? Yes! And to disobey God- to not do as He asks? One more trip back to the garden anyone? Oh, – that’s right! – the way is blocked! -Or is it? There is ONE who claims to be the Way. Does the Father delight in those children who are obedient?
Where is our heart in all this? “trust and obey”- for there’s no other way- to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey. “Shema” the Savior and avad ADONAI out of a heart of love, and we haven’t even gotten to our right-response to the love of God! (worship!).
“In paleo-Hebrew, the picture is a fence between a person and chaos.”
Thank You Skip. I so look forward to you posting things like this.
We were first introduced to a small booklet (now a much larger book) nearly 20 years ago by Frank Seekins called Hebrew word pictures. Two word pictures impacted me so hard that it changed my view of scripture and my life forever.
The first was the paleo- Hebrew picture for shalom (peace). The picture is; destroy the authority that establishes chaos. WOW! My first impression was “If the light that is in you is darkness how great is that darkness!” This shed an entirely different light on “Blessed are those who pursue peace: for they shall be called sons of God.”
The second picture (which is the first one I ever figured out for myself) came the same night.
YHVH His sacred Holy name. The simplest word picture for it is; The hand-behold-the nail-behold. Words cannot describe what this does to me even to this day. My Greek premises were struck a fatal blow that night. I can only liken it to the gold that was overlaid into the wood of the arch. His commandments became my personal mandate. It made Him a part of me that simply can’t be undone. Oh how I pray that the people of YHVH come into this kind of revival.
Skip,
I can appreciate the paleo-Hebrew understanding of G-d’s sovereignty and sole arbiter of good/chaos (in today’s world G-d would be put before the Hague!), however this does not answer the woman’s question: “. . . this is so opposed to the character of Jesus in the New Testament.” I, too don’t understand the apparent contradiction in His character.
Bill Schenck
Opposed to the character of “Jesus”? Perhaps you have been infected by the liberal/evangelical views of Yeshua. Perhaps those Sunday school stories (which systematically avoid Yeshua’s harsh comments) stand behind your view of the Messiah. Isn’t it Yeshua who provides us with parables about “outer darkness” and “gnashing of teeth?” Isn’t He the one who warns the churches that He will judge them severely? Isn’t he the one who says that there is NO forgiveness for the debtor who refuses to forgive others? Don’t the pictures in Revelation portray Him as coming with a sword of vengeance and wrath? We could go on. I think that this is a case of reading what we WANT to hear and ignoring the rest. If Yeshua is God manifest in the flesh, do you suppose that He doesn’t represent the same holy wrath against the wicked that we see in the Tanakh? Time to read the text again.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH HOLY WRATH AT ALL – I HAVE MORE OF A PROBLEM WITH GREASY SLIMY GRACE THAT NEVER LIFTS A FINGER TO “PUNISH” SIN (SORRY CARL – I KNOW YOU DETEST THAT WORD “PUNISH”)…
THERE IS ALWAYS BALANCE OF LOVE & WRATH – ALWAYS… ONE DOES NOT EXIST WITHOUT THE OTHER… AT LEAST NOT NOW…
God never changes, He is the same today, yesterday, and forever. No shadow of turning. Why some see two different Gods in the two testaments I don’t know either. One sheepfold, One Shepherd, from begining to end.
Tho a long way from when I was in Sunday School, but I can still remember the lessons we had.
I was taught about judgements, presented with the flood, Samson, the Tower of Bable, Jonah, and others. I did know God judged sin as well as I knew God is love. My church today tells the whole story, too, to the children. Of course, age appropriate.
Over the years, I have seen the books, paintings, bedspreads, and toys in the nurseries of friends, and they included Noah’s ark, presenting God as savior and lover of our souls. You know, the same stories that some people see as vengeful, I think of as evidence of great caring and love, God doing what He has to do like a loving Father who will kill a snake before it bites his child.
I think you maybe didn’t have such a good church or teachings when you were growing up and I’m really sorry you didn’t. I am sincere. (((hugs)))
One mean and hyprotical person can sure ruin things. 🙁
Heb. 13: 8 “Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever”
If God were to change, it would be the worst imaginable thing in the universe. He could not be trusted. We would live in constant fear, thinking perhaps He would change His mind about His gift of salvation. After all, none of us are ever good enough to trust we did well in any given 24 hr. period. We would have no rest in a changing God, no confidence in Him whatsoever.
The God who delivered the Israelites yesterday will deliver you today and your children tomorrow. God’s love, power and almighty presence are unceasing. How firm a foundation is our God!
The God of the O.T. and the N.T. are the same God. He leads with grace and mercy from one end of the Scriptures to the last Word. His mercies are new every morning.
Do a personal Biblestudy on the charactristics of God, see His nature.
For now, please see: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-different.html
Again, I think it imperative to be careful about the words that we use. There are two senses (meanings) to the words “God never changes.” The first is the theological sense of strong immutability. This idea, most eloquently defended by Aquinas, suggests that since God is perfect, there can never be any alteration in God (any change). Change would imply either 1) God was before the change imperfect in some way or 2) God is now imperfect in some way whereas before the change He was perfect. Aquinas’ idea is based in the Greek concept of perfection (a mathematically based paradigm). What is perfect requires no addition nor can it tolerate any subtraction. This seems to be appropriate to attribute to God, but on closer inspection involves a host of logical and theological problems. It makes havoc of Scripture’s constant reference to God changing His will or His mind. But strong immutability continues to dominate the theological landscape and results in statement like “God never changes” being equated with denial of any alteration in God at all.
Weak immutability suggests that God does not change in His character or purpose, but that He is quite capable of changing His mind and the plans by which He exercises His will. This is far more compatible with the anthropomorphic tenor of Scripture, but causes other theological problems, particularly for the corollary of omniscience, for it implies that God actually does “learn” new things as the world of free agency unfolds.
So, we have a choice here: What do we mean when we say, “God never changes.” It is NOT the worst possible thing to imagine that He changes His execution in order to accommodate human agency. In fact, it is demanded if we are to have a God who is not merely Fate. But that means we have to give up the idea of strong immutability.
All of this is discussed in great detail in my book, God, Time and the Limits of Omniscience.
When we see JESUS (the same) yesterday , today and forever ,it does not mean that HE does not change.. but yesterday in our unconverted days, today in our converted days and tomorrow in the kingdom to come.
It is the same JESUS and not another but not meaning change is what I meant
I can’t help but think about the words of John (Mark 1:8)
I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
the way I understand the Holy Spirit is that he is a purging fire, bringing us to the knowledge of God and His Christ.
What strikes me is that it was this same fire that utterly destroyed them.