Paul and the Jews

For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; . . .  1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 NASB

Jews – No author of New Testament documents has been more disparaged than Paul when in comes to understanding the word ioudaios (Jew, Judean).  Verses like this one, taken out of the context of Paul’s entire corpus, became the biblical support for untold pogroms against the Jews.  “Christ killer” was a common insult thrown against every Jew when the Church attempted to prove itself to be the new and accepted Israel.  But even Paul’s harsh words in this verse must be understood in the context of his entire worldview.  And when we look, we find something very different than the usual, grossly mistaken, view of the Church.

Did Paul say that the Jews killed the Messiah?  Yes.  Did he mean every Jew was responsible for Yeshua’s death?  Obviously not!  Paul was a Jew.  James, John, Peter, Matthew, and the “thousands of devout men” in Acts 15 were Jews.  To suggest that Paul included every Jew in his statement in Thessalonians is the equivalent of saying that every American is a slave owner and every German a Nazi.  It is a tragic shame that many Christians still think of all Jews as one, uniform, guilty group.  It is just as much a tragedy that many Jews think only of the rendering of Paul promulgated by this version of the Church.  If only we would read all the text instead of picking what suits our tradition.

When we look at all the text, we find that Paul uses this word to describe those Jews who reject Yeshua as the Messiah and who are of a similar mindset as the Jewish ancestors who killed the prophets.  But he uses exactly the same word to describe Jews who keep Torah and accept Yeshua (Romans 2:7ff. and 1 Corinthians 9:20).  The same term is used to describe Jews who adhere to Torah (Galatians 2:13) and who is justified by his faith (Galatians 3:28).  Paul himself recounts his Jewish heritage, proclaims his rabbinic education and practice and declares that he continues to be an adherent to Torah and a follower of Yeshua (Acts 24).  Furthermore, Paul and his Jewish opponents both appeal to Jewish law when they plead their cases before pagan and Jewish authorities.  If Paul considered all Jews deceitful murderers, why would he hold himself accountable to the Jewish Law?

Just in case we thought Paul was the only one who employed this term in multiple ways, we should not forget its use in the Synoptics and John.  In the gospels the same distinction is made.  Some Jews believe; some do not.  Context distinguishes the two.  The word by itself is entirely neutral.

I believe it helps to translate this verse according to its first century context and its Hebraic background.  That means it would read, “For you, brethren, became imitators of the assemblies (the religious gatherings of Messianic believers of both Jews and Gentiles) of God in Yeshua HaMashiach that are in Judea, for you endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen (namely, the Gentiles of Thessalonica) even as the Messianic Jewish believers did at the hands of their countrymen (the Jews who refused to believe).  It was those who did not believe who were responsible for the actions that led to the death of the Messiah (although, obviouand declares that he continues the Romans were the actual executioners).”

Context, context, context.  Just as we must STOP thinking that all Pharisees were false teachers, liars and hypocrites, so we must STOP thinking that all Jews rejected the Messiah and persecuted “Christians.”  The historical truth is that everyone was mixed together just as we are today.  What separated them was not nationality but personal declaration.  May we have the grace to allow the same thing.

Topical Index:  Jews, ioudaios, 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

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Dorothy

I am the one who killed Yeshua. I’m guilty. I did it and I’m sorry. I have already told Him so with many tears. I’m going to kiss the scars on His hands and feet someday if He will let me.

Michael

“I am the one who killed Yeshua.”

Hi Dorothy,

How did you kill Yeshua? “I am” (God) had a hand in it

We are free to feel guilty, and might be responsible, in some sense

But in my view, Yeshua showed us the way to peace, love, and good will

Our job is to transform our guilt into responsibility IMO

Ilze

I am wondering about what would be the Hebrew way of thinking of it?

I don’t think of any of the three (or more) Marys during Yeshua’s ministry as people who would have killed him. Neither do I consider any of is disciples as His killers. But, I do believe Caiaphas did not speak out of his own when he said that Yeshua (one man) had to die for all of the people – by implication to clear all of their transgressions. (John 11)

I am certainly guilty of sin, and I am certainly in need of reconciliation with HaShem, but did I kill Yeshua when I chose to follow Yeshua as Messiah? Or did I humbly accept a willing sacrifice on my behalf, because I really just am too incompetent of doing it for myself and realizes my dependency on this Sacrifice made on my behalf?

Maybe I am just trying to find a cop-out?

Help me to renew my mind on this, please.

Michael

“I am wondering about what would be the Hebrew way of thinking of it?”

Hi Ilze,

In my view, Hebrews are Historians

The story begins when the Galilean rebel Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy in the Hebrew Bible about the coming of the Messiah. He’s mobbed by an adoring crowd.

The next day Jesus raids the Temple, the heart of the Jewish religion, and attacks money-changers for defiling a holy place.

The leaders of the Jewish establishment realise that he threatens their power, and so do the Romans, who fear that Jesus has the charisma to lead a guerrilla uprising against Imperial Rome.

Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, tried by Caiaphas and then by the Roman Governor. He’s sentenced to death and executed.

Michael

“but not quite historical”

Hi Skip,

I understand

Was speaking in very general terms

For example, no mention of Judas 🙂

Dorothy

I was just talking “no me/no tree”
The plan of salvation was detailed long ago.
He knew our need for a Savior before we were created. He gave His only Son, freely.

” . . Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, …. crucified …..” Acts 2: 23

Gave the remedy before the illness. Still does, btw. Likely in the rain forest today (and been there since creation week) rests a cure for cancer and all diseases. (one of the reasons our enemy has set the rain forest on fire — that can be seen from space!)
He knows all things, He provides all things — there is a deficiency in His nature

“Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; His understanding is beyond measure.” Ps. 147:5

Dorothy

oops, NO deficiency in His nature!!

Dorothy

. . . right you are !

Pam

I must concur with you Michael. YHVH sacrificed Him on our behalf. We can’t take credit for this one.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD (YHVH) to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD (YHVH) shall prosper in his hand.

Kees Brakshoofden

Hi Michael,

What does IMO mean? (I’m Dutch)

carl roberts

Kees, IMO, is an abbreviated way to say “in my opinion.”
I am in with Dorothy on this confession: “it was I who killed Him”. I know He died in my stead and in my place and died for my sins. And for this confession- what is His response to me? “I forgive.” I’ll never get over it- neither will I attempt to get over it. I will stay- “lost in wonder, love and praise.”
Charles Wesley wrote this hymn in 1747. There is a reason it has endured the test of time and the reason for this is truth. Truth endures- and the words of this song resonate in the heart of many of the followers of Christ. Does this also “ring true” in your heart?:

Love divine, all loves excelling,
Joy of heaven to earth come down;

Fix in us Thy humble dwelling;
All thy faithful mercies crown!

Jesus, Thou art all compassion,
Pure unbounded love Thou art;

Visit us with Thy salvation;
Enter every trembling heart.

Breathe, O breathe Thy loving Spirit,

Into every troubled breast!

Let us all in Thee inherit;

Let us find that second rest.

Take away our bent to sinning;
Alpha and Omega be;

End of faith, as its Beginning,

Set our hearts at liberty.

Come, Almighty to deliver,
Let us all Thy life receive;

Suddenly return and never,

Never more Thy temples leave.

Thee we would be always blessing,
Serve Thee as Thy hosts above,

Pray and praise Thee without ceasing,

Glory in Thy perfect love.

Finish, then, Thy new creation;

Pure and spotless let us be.

Let us see Thy great salvation
Perfectly restored in Thee;

Changed from glory into glory,

Till in heaven we take our place,

Till we cast our crowns before Thee,

Lost in wonder, love, and praise.

Ian Hodge

“What separated them was not nationality but personal declaration. May we have the grace to allow the same thing.” – Amen!!!

Pam

WOW Skip,

“For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea”

I never made this connection before in this passage.

The Thessalonians were persecuted for imitating their Torah observant Jewish brethren in Judea.

Pam

Sure does!

That’s one of the biggest reasons Paul is difficult to understand in my opinion. He packs so many facts into each sentence. How many 100s of times have I read this verse and missed that part of it? I caught that they were persecuted for their faith but not a Torah obedient faith.

One of the key verses that finally sent me over the edge to pursue Torah was 1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I am also of Christ.

What really makes the difference is understanding and excepting that both Jew and Gentile first century believers were Torah observant. Without that understanding how could we know what they were imitating?

Pam

Thanks I’ll do it.

Gabe

I’m reading “Meet the Rabbis”, and I appreciate the suggestion.

Rodney

Is this yet another case of unhelpful punctuation being added to the English translation? Consider how differently this reads:

For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out

…as compared to this:

For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and drove us out

What a difference a couple of commas can make; “the Jews, who killed…” or “the Jews who killed…” – one a general reference with a parenthetical remark, the other a specific reference to a particular subset of the whole.

Rodney

OH, and btw, I think history shows that it was the Tzadikiym – the Sadducees – who staged the mock trial before the sagan priest (the “backup” to the High Priest) who was, of course, a Sadducee, and that it was the Sadducees who were most active in their persecution of the Nazarene sect known as “the Way”. Given that Sha’ul was a pharisee it is hardly surprising that he should write somewhat disparagingly about the “Jews who killed Yeshua”, given the rivalry and even animosity that existed between the Sadducees and Pharisees.

Michael

“Have you thought about why the Christian church proposed the that CROSS was the center of redemption? Is that biblical”

Hi Skip,

Well I always assumed that it was because Christ was on the Cross

But I don’t remember the concept that the CROSS was the center of redemption in Catholicism

In Hebrew, as I understand it, the letter “t” signifies a Cross

And the letter “t” has a numerical value of 400

God’s name has 4 letters (YHVH) and a Cross creates 4 angles (t)

Heart is an important Hebrew concept and it would be at the center of the Cross

In Eastern religions, God is typically at the center of everything

So a cross would have strong associations with God, Jesus, sacrifice, and redemption

That’s just how I would see it 🙂

Dorothy

I ask again as before and am still waiting for the answer:

Everybody knows punctuation, including commas, was introduced into the biblical manuscripts centuries after the books were completed. How then can you use them like they are as authoritative as the words?

carl roberts

–Have you thought about why the Christian church proposed the that CROSS was the center of redemption? Is that biblical? —

Yes, and yes. Absolutely “critical.”

carl roberts

Who sets the rules?

carl roberts

Was (is) Jesus- God? Yeshua is YHWH. Did God the Mighty Maker die for His own creature’s sin?
Abraham, did God provide Himself the Lamb? Yes, He did. The Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world. “Behold the Lamb” remains forever the Master Theme of the Book God wrote.

~ saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” ~ (Revelation 5.12)

let me attempt this once more..

~SAYING WITH A LOUD VOICE, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” ~ (Revelation 5.12)

The Old Testament Scriptures Foretells A Coming Messiah – And Only One Fulfilled All The Prophecies: Jesus (who is the) Christ.

http://www.vojo.com/rev/messianic_prophecies.htm

Dorothy

AMEN !
Today my heart is stuck on this song:

In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless Babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save

On that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory
Sin’s curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ

No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From a life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny

No power of hell, no scheme of man
Could ever pluck me from His hand
Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I stand

I will stand, I will stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground, all other ground
Is sinking sand, is sinking sand
So I stand, (secure in His hand)

http://youtu.be/qLy8ksqGf9w

Ryan Toups

Carl,
Yeshua has not yet fuflilled ALL the propecies my friend. This is from His own mouth in the Gospels. We need to look at the scriputres with a Hebrew mindset since our Messiah was Jewish and then we can understand them more.

Dorothy

Want Hebrews? We got Hebrews

“How much more is done by the blood of Christ. He offered himself through the eternal Spirit as a PERFECT sacrifice to God. His blood will make our consciences pure from USELESS ACTS so we may serve the living God.” Hebrews 9:14

carl roberts

Yes, my good brother- there are prophecies yet to be..- but His “track record” of over three hundred fulfilled (so far) is perfect. He is the chosen ONE of Israel, the long-awaited Messiah, the virgin-born, resurrected second Adam, Son of God and son of man.

Ryan Toups

Dorothy,
I am not speaking of the book of Hebrews, I am talking about learning the language and the customs that our Messiah Yeshua(Jesus) was part of. We have a real problem here in the West, you see we think like a western when it comes to reading(studying) a book written in the east. Carl, I was simply correcting you because you said Yeshua has fufilled ALL prophecies which He has not done yet. We miss so much that is being said, and we make the Messiah out to be a Greek messiah when he was NOT that at all. That is what I mean Dorothy when I speak of thiniking like a Hebrew.
Shalom(Peace)

Dorothy

Ryan, I was making a pun. I ought to have said so.

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ.

carl roberts

Whether we are Jewish or goy, Jesus (who is the Christ) is the Savior of all, for “all” have sinned. In the end.. there are only two- saved or lost, and here on this green planet there are only two again- those (whether Jew or Gentile) who are “in Christ”- and those who are “without”. ~ For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit ~ (1 Corinthians 12.13)

Only two types of people occupy planet earth- saints or aint’s. And what is a “saint” other than a saved sinner?

I once was lost, but now am found. Was blind- but now I see. My “Boss” is a Jewish Carpenter.

Gabe

The message of the church should be: “Come as you are!”, but it has turned into “Stay as you are!”. A ‘goy’ should not stay a ‘goy’.

At times, Paul seems to be talking out both sides of his mouth, but if we see that assimilation was a primary concern — then we see how he could stress love and patience one minute and judgment and ostracization the next. There were those who were pursuing righteousness and maturity, and those who would not let go of parts of the old life. It seems to me that Paul treated the two groups very differently.

Dorothy

“He came to His own [Judah], and His own [Judah] did not receive Him. But as many [Jews] as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name… [John 1:11-12]

Therefore I believe the purpose of God, and wish of God, is for ALL to become children of God. Period. No more divisions. No matter your background, you are dead while you breath until you be reborn into the Kingdom of God.

No church I have ever been in or associated with (many, btw, thru church-wide, country-wide activities) says ‘come as you are and stay as you are’.
‘Come as you are’ is a necessary message because no matter what, you can’t get good enough or cleaned up enough for God to accept you.

Evidence of being a new creation in God is that you WILL an do change; your life, your thoughts, your desires, your plans, your motivies, what you care about, what you spend your time on, etc.

Gabe

Oh Dorothy, I’ve never heard a church SAY, “Come as you are, stay as you are.”

And there is nothing that you said that I don’t disagree with, I just wonder if you think that what you described in your last paragraph — really IS the experience of most self-described Christians?

Dorothy

Okay, I’m willing to strike personal experience in this case. I’ll just stick with my first two paragraph sections. In order that it bring us back to what Christ wants to make us into after we have a true experience with Him. Division or one body?

> I … wonder if you think . . . really IS the experience of most self-described Christians?<

What or who someone 'self-describes' themselves as don't count a lot to me. I'll watch and see. Its a matter of either you are or you aren't. (general terms)
The "R"s will definitely have the heart-washing change. The R-nots will go on as before, else worse off. You can tell them by their fruit.

God has told us what to check. The fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control;
These are the things we look for as controlling a life. Anyone can sin and give in to the opposite of any one of these lovely attributes, — and does! — but the truly changed life will be pressed to repentance — and that by the GOODNESS of the LORD.

(this last comment I revert, again, to my own experience. I have felt more of His EYES looking at me than having to be disciplined)

Our main difference really is worth mentioning.

Those I clearly see living opposite the Spirit, I do not call "His church". You perhaps like to take them at their word and lump them all together in one muddy ball. Who am I to say what you can do or not do with your words? Nobody. I have enough trouble with my own. (tiny smile)
But one thing I am going to do henseforth, –if God helps me– is simply to accept that is the way many prefer it, and stop defending the true church. Those who are God's children, I believe He is able to defend them Himself.