Some Final Thoughts on Body and Soul
By now you have struggled through the implications of Matthew 10:28, Yeshua’s supposed endorsement of the “body-soul” dualism that we have been exploring for the last 4 days. Perhaps we haven’t solved the riddle of the translation, but we have at least learned these few things:
1. The “body-soul” or “body-mind-soul” or “body-spirit-soul” concepts found in most Christian theology are akin to those Greek philosophical systems found in Pythagoras and Plato. They do not have readily available counterparts in Hebraic thought.
2. Hebrew has no dualistic terms that approximate the categories found in Greek philosophy. The Tanakh does not embrace, endorse or support the idea of the separation of Man into various parts.
3. Since we believe Yeshua did not embrace this Greek dualism, the text in Matthew is either a) corrupt, b) an addition by someone else, c) a mangled translation of an attempt to convey a Hebrew concept in Greek language, or d) an idiomatic expression in Hebrew that was mistranslated as a word-for-word concept into Greek.
4. We ruled out a) and b) above and determined that the most likely explanation for Matthew 10:28 is that it was spoken as a Hebrew idiom but badly translated into Greek, and subsequently forced to fit a Greek paradigm. Since the Church had already adopted a Greek metaphysics by the time our versions of the Greek text of Matthew came into existence, it would not have caused in startled suspicion to read the text as “body and soul.” The culture already assumed such a dualism was biblical.
With this in mind, we suggested that the appropriate idiomatic translation might be something like this: “Do not fear those who are able to inflict terrible means of death upon the body. Rather fear the one who is capable of wasting away life.” This idiomatic expression is also ironic (a common tactic employed by Yeshua) because the one who is able to waste away life is NOT God but rather you and I. In other words, Yeshua is teaching us that not fulfilling God’s purposes for our lives is the equivalent of destroying life and WE ARE RESPONSIBLE.
Why is this so difficult to discern from the current Greek of Matthew 10:28 and virtually all the English translations? Because English adopts the Greek paradigm of Man, breaking the unity of the embodied person into pieces which are subsequently treated differently. To put is simply, English (and Greek) do NOT have the needed linguistic forms or ideas necessary to translate this Hebrew idiomatic expression. Much like the HEbrew concept of hesed, Greek is simply inadequate to convey the Hebrew meaning.
Try talking to someone about what it means to be human but do not use any reference to body or soul. You will see just how much our own thought patterns and language is saturated with this Greek idea. Try explaining that the biblical text does not contain the idea of an immortal, disembodied soul and you will probably be considered a heretic. Try explaining what it means to “sleep in the earth” until the Day of Judgment. All of our Christian ideas about heaven and hell, reward and punishment, eternal existence, etc. come under attack. No wonder people have such a terrible time when they try to answer the question, “What would this have meant to the audience that first heard it?”
Try explaining that the biblical text does not contain the idea of an immortal, disembodied soul and you will probably be considered a heretic.
So THAT’S what the problem is!!!? 🙂 !?
GOOD MORNING – IS THAT GREEK TOO???
I “UNDERSTAND” WHAT ALL YOUR ARE SAYING BUT WHAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND IS WHY GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT WOULD LET US ALL GO THIS LONG DOWN THE ROAD BELIEVING LIES ABOUT HIS WORD – THAT IS WHAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME. SURELY HE WOULD HAVE NIPPED THIS IN THE BUD WAY BEFORE NOW IF IT WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO HIS FOLLOWERS – THAT IS WHAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME. WHY NOW DO WE FIND THIS ALL OUT & IF THIS IS SO THEN WHY AREN’T THE JEWS IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD “JESUS” IF THEY HAVE ALL THE RIGHT & CORRECT TRANSLATIONS TO THE SCRIPTURES – THIS IS WHAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND.
AND THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE NEVER GOING TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE OF THE GREEK & THE HEBREW SO WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM??? I JUST CAN’T BELIEVE THAT THIS LITTLE COMMUNITY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT HAVE THIS REVELATION OR NEED IT TO BE IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT. DOES IT REALLY MAKE THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE IN THE LONG RUN??? DOES IT CHANGE THE FOUNDATIONAL TRUTHS OF OUR SALVATION??? NOT THAT IT IS NOT GOOD TO KNOW BUT HOW IS IT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO US AT OUR AGE AFTER BELIEVING WHAT WE HAVE INTO OUR GOLDEN YEARS – WILL IT AFFECT OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT NEGATIVELY IF WE DIDN’T KNOW WHAT WE ARE FINDING OUT “NOW?” I DON’T THINK SO – SO EXACTLY WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS NEW FOUND KNOWLEDGE FOR US AT THIS POINT – IS IT GOING TO MAKE US MORE SAVED & LESS GOING TO HELL??? I’M NOT SURE WHAT THE PURPOSE IN KNOWING IS…
jan
Consider your argument. You imply that if God knew things would be misunderstood or manipulated, He would have prevented it from happening. Really? Then why is there sin in the Garden? If God knew that Adam and Havvah had the potential to disobey Him, why didn’t He “nip it in the bud”? You argument assumes that God PREVENTS the consequences of human choice from occurring. But there is no evidence of this – in the Bible or in history. Did God prevent the Holocaust? Did He prevent Roman torture of believers? What makes you think that God would prevent men from corrupting His word. Jeroboam did it. Why couldn’t Luther? Your WISH that God would stop men from introducing errors is only that – a WISH! But it isn’t reality.
What if God expects you to study His word so that you will discover the mistakes – instead of merely accepting whatever the theologians tell you?
WELL LET ME SEE IF I CAN ANSWER ALL OR ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS [IN MY WAY OF THINKING/PERCEPTION]:
You imply that if God knew things would be misunderstood or manipulated, He would have prevented it from happening.
Then why is there sin in the Garden? BECAUSE THERE WAS A PLAN FOR SALVATION – DID HE/GOD NOT KNOW THERE WAS GOING TO BE SIN IN THE GARDEN – WAS THE PLAN NOT ALL ALONG TO SEND JESUS/HIS ONLY SON FOR THE PROPITIATION OF OUR SINS – SO ARE YOU SAYING GOD DOES NOT KNOW WHEN WE ARE GOING TO SIN – EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE FREE CHOICE???
If God knew that Adam and Havvah had the potential to disobey Him, why didn’t He “nip it in the bud”? WELL, HE DID NIP IT IN THE BUD – HE SENT THEM AWAY TO FIN FOR THEMSELVES INSTEAD OF BEING IN THE GARDEN WITH HIM – BECAUSE HE KNEW FROM THAT POINT ON WITH THE BAD/INAPPROPRIATE CHOICE/DECISION THAT THE PLAN OF JESUS WAS NOW IN PLACE/OPERATIVE…
You argument assumes that God PREVENTS the consequences of human choice from occurring. YOU WILL NEVER EVER CONVINCE ME OF ANYTHING ELSE BUT – THERE ARE TOO MANY TIMES TO COUNT IN REAL LIFE WHEN HE DOES JUST SO – I DON’T GET WHERE YOUR SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD GOES – ONE TIME YOU ARE LAUDING THE/HIS SOVEREIGNTY & OTHER TIMES YOU ARE DISCOUNTING IT…
Did God prevent the Holocaust? NO BUT HE DID DELIVER CERTAIN PEOPLE FROM SUCH ATROCITIES – JUST LIKE HAPPENED WHEN THE TOWERS WENT DOWN – THOSE WHO WERE LISTENING/BEING OBEDIENT WERE SPARED THEIR LIVES… JUST AS JOSHUA & CALEB THAT GOT TO ENTER THE PROMISED LAND… THERE WERE FEW THAT ESCAPED THE HOLOCAUST & LIVE TODAY…
Did He prevent Roman torture of believers? NOT ALL BUT I’M SURE SOME – CAN YOU TELL ME/US WHY SOME ARE SPARED & SOME ARE NOT – NO YOU CAN’T JUST AS YOU CAN’T SAY GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY IS NOT FOR A PURPOSE NOT BECAUSE WE DON’T ALL KNOW HEBREW…
What makes you think that God would prevent men from corrupting His word. Jeroboam did it. Why couldn’t Luther? Your WISH that God would stop men from introducing errors is only that – a WISH! But it isn’t reality. IT IS NOT A WISH – IT IS REALITY IN SOME PEOPLES LIVES EVEN YOURS IF YOU WOULD STOP & THINK ABOUT IT…
What if God expects you to study His word so that you will discover the mistakes – instead of merely accepting whatever the theologians tell you? WELL I COULD ALSO SAY WHY DO I HAVE TO MERELY ACCEPT WHATEVER THEOLOGIANS TELL ME AS CORRECT WHEN I HAVE HAD THE WORD OF GOD IN GREEK & ENGLISH…
Your WISH that God would stop men from introducing errors is only that – a WISH! But it isn’t reality. WELL WHAT THE HELL IS FAITH THEN & WHY IS IT SO PLEASING TO GOD???
I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE LITTLE COMMUNITY THAT HAS THE EDGE OF THE REAL TRUTH OF REALITY – THAT THE WORD IS SEVERELY SKEWED & ALL WE HAVE COME KNOW ABOUT GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT CORRECT… JUST SEEMS KINDA LUDICROUS TO ME IN THE BIG PICTURE OF SALVATION…
I THINK YOU HAVE PRESENTED THE CONS OF THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN YOU & I BUT WHERE ARE THE PROS OF GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY & MIRACLES & FAITH & HIS WILL BEING DONE – CAN’T HAPPEN BECAUSE WE DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT TRANSLATION???
“I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE LITTLE COMMUNITY THAT HAS THE EDGE OF THE REAL TRUTH OF REALITY.”
Entire denominations have discovered many of the things talked about here, but it seems that the truth does not lie in one set of creeds. In addition, I think we can all agree that correct theology does not always lead to sanctification. I haven’t sat down and studied these things extensively, but just off the top of my head I can think of several denominations that have espoused similar truths talked about here, for many many years.
A few examples:
Jehovah’s Witnesses: Seem to have a clearer understanding (at least on the books) of what the “Gospel” is. The gospel is the “Kingdom of Heaven”, not just the fact that we are eligible for heaven because of Christ’s sacrifice.
Seventh-Day Adventists: Believe closely to the view of body/soul as Skip has outlined, clean food laws, and the sanctity of the seventh-day sabbath.
Muslims: Except for extremists, they are probably closer to the culture of Jesus with fasting, prayer, and alms-giving — than almost any Western church.
Maybe I missed it, but when has Skip,… or someone else on here EVER claimed that ‘this little community’ is the only place where these truths abide? On the contrary, I have only heard people re-affirm that we are all students and apprentices trying to seek greater truth. Especially since we understand that DECEPTION/IDOLATRY, not CLARITY/TRUTH, has historically characterized those who profess to follow God. The prophets were sent to the church, to people who thought their worship was acceptable, to self-deceptive people like you and me.
GABE, WHO DO YOU THINK THE PROPHET IS IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE??? AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PROPHET IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH IN THIS INSTANCE??? IS THERE A WARNING WE ARE TO HEAR OR UNDERSTAND – A WARNING OF WHAT??? TO HAVE MORE UNDERSTANDING OF THE SCRIPTURES???
DOES THIS MEAN THAT UNLESS WE UNDERSTAND IN THIS WAY SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO US OR IS IT JUST ANOTHER SCHOOL OF THOUGHT – TO WHAT IS THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE FOR THOSE OF US WHO ARE JUST LEARNING ALL THIS FROM SKIP???
KNOWLEDGE AND/OR TRUTH – TRUTH I VALUE BUT AT THIS POINT I FEEL MY SALVATION IS SET & I WORK OUT WITH FEAR & TREMBLING WITH WHAT I HAVE ALREADY KNOWN – TO WHAT POINT IS THIS KNOWING OF MORE GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO MY SALVATION EXCEPT JUST MORE KNOWLEDGE. DO WE ALL NOT AGREE ON THE FOUNDATIONS – EVERY JOT & TITTLE OF IT???
I AM NOT SAYING THE KNOWLEDGE IS WRONG BUT TO WHAT END IS IT BUT TO BE MORE ENLIGHTENED – DOES IT AFFECT OUR SALVATION AT THE POINT MOST OF US ARE AT HERE… THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING – IS THIS CHANGE IN UNDERSTANDING OF GREEK TO HEBREW GOING TO CHANGE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT – THE FUNDAMENTAL/FOUNDATIONAL TRUTHS OF SALVATION???
Your salvation is “set”? What does that mean? You can’t be wrong? What you know now is all that there is to know? There is nothing more to learn? It’s not possible to be mistaken?
God made the decision. Take it up with Him!
This is not the only community. There are plenty of teachers that have tried to teach kind of the same – but none with such good validation for the whole truth, yet clear enough for us with a foreign tongue(and to understand. Brad Scott and others have been teaching this for years, http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/hebrew-greek-mind/lesson10.html- its seems it’s only the students that are not willing or a little slow in doing, including me.
LUZETTE, THE ONLY COMMUNITY I “KNOW” ABOUT & A PART OF IS THIS ONE… I MAY BE REALLY CONFUSED IF I WERE IN SEVERAL COMMUNITIES ALL TEACHING WE DON’T KNOW THE TRUTH OF THE SCRIPTURES AS THEY REALLY ARE OR WERE…
No one here is teaching that we don’t know the truth about Scripture. What we are learning is that we often ASSUME we know, but on further investigation we have to rethink our assumptions. We can know the truth, but it doesn’t come “spoon-fed.” You and I are responsible for finding it by searching with all our hearts. And that doesn’t mean you just pray and wait for God to whisper in your ear. You must DIG AND DIG AND DIG until you reach rock bottom.
I’ve heard this verse in Matthew used for lots of things, but, Praise the LORD, it also means God preserves His Word, Jan.
Matthew 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
He repeats it in Luke 21: 33 and Mark 13: 31.
He couldn’t make that promise unless He was sure that God can/would/is able to preserve His Word.
God’s Word was given specifically for mankind, and it would not be fulfilling its purpose if it were not available to us. (I often kiss my Bible!)
The Word is God-breathed. Puny man nor demons of hell cannot alter God’s breath. That’s laughable. If Scripture were not supernaturally preserved, there would be no way to ensure the consistency of the message it contains.
I looked this up: The early scribes, whose jobs were to make exact copies of Scripture, were very meticulous. One example of their scrupulous precision is the practice of counting all the letters in a given book and noting the middle letter of the book. They would then do the same for the copy to make sure it matched. They employed such time-consuming and painstaking methods to ensure accuracy.
What we do have are thousands of manuscripts from which the original writings can be ascertained. By thorough examination and comparison of those manuscripts, it is determined what the original writings stated. This does not mean that there are absolutely no differences between the manuscripts. But the differences are extremely small and insignificant and do not in any way affect the basic teachings or meaning of God’s Word. The differences are things like minor spelling variations. We should keep in mind that this would not and does not affect the accuracy of Scripture, nor does it mean that God has not preserved His Word. God has supernaturally kept or preserved His Word.
God’s Word will remain forever (Isaiah) and it will accomplish that which God has planned. You CAN trust the Bible in your hands. Our (yours and mine) faith in in God for being able to do as He says.
t)
DOROTHY, THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT I SEEM TO NOT BE ABLE TO CONVEY BUT GOD DID ALLOW ME TO GO AROUND THE MOUNTAIN PER SE…
I STILL TRUST THAT GOD IS SOVEREIGN & WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT HAS BEEN OKAY WITH HIM OR HE WOULD CHANGE HIS WORD[S] FOR THOSE WHO SEEK HIS FACE FOR TRUTH…
“God’s Word will remain forever (Isaiah) and it will accomplish that which God has planned. You CAN trust the Bible in your hands. Our (yours and mine) faith in in God for being able to do as He says.”
I am amazed (as Paul said) that you are so easily fooled by this cultural mythology. Do you imagine that God TAKES AWAY human free will whenever it might misinterpret His word? If you think that this is so, you need to read once more the lesson on 1 John 5:8 (see my web site) which for hundreds of years was treated as though it were part of John’s letter but was IN FACT a scribal notation in the margin. We could point to other verse with the same historical misunderstanding, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Why didn’t God prevent that scribe from inserting his comment into the text? Why did He let people go on believing that the words were John’s for hundreds of years? Open you eyes! Men alter God’s word to fit their own desires – and God rarely prevents them from doing so. That is not the same as saying that there is no way to find the truth. It is simply saying that we cannot be so naive as to assume that God correct all errors along the way.
“THE PURPOSE OF THIS NEW FOUND KNOWLEDGE FOR US AT THIS POINT”
Hi Jan,
If this knowledge is true, and it seems true to me, then true is better than false knowledge
What was that old Traffic song from the 50’s, Heaven is in your Mind:
Guiding your vision to heaven and heaven is in your mind
Take extra care not to lose what you feel
The apple you’re eating is simple and real
Water the flowers that grow at your heel
Guiding your vision to heaven
And heaven is in your mind
Every now and then I find myself in Hell
And in my experience there is only one way out
The Door in the Here and noW must be opened
Metaphorically speaking 🙂
I, too am in my ‘golden’ years…and absolutely NOTHING that I imagined would be .. is as I had imagined. I ‘imagined’ our house would be mortgage free, we would be living comfortably, sitting on the back porch swing with grandbabies on each knee…having wonderful relationships with my two sons and daughter-in-laws and being the one they come to for wise advice.
Well, none of that has transpired….none of it. Even as our physical lives have not manifested themselves as our ‘imaginings’ … neither has our spiritual lives! We have traveled the map of life from Catholicism to mmm not sure what I am now… but it has been a search for ‘truth’ … and has led us down many, many different pathways. And what has it done for us – for me? It has opened that metaphorical DOOR into the deeper places of the mansion of my Master. Each door that I have walked through I have had to set aside preconceived ideas, tightly held traditions and set in stone concepts of doctrine. What does it matter you ask? It matters because we are on a journey to KNOW (intimately) our bridegroom! We are on a journey to SEE Him as He really is. We are on a journey to LOVE Him for who He is … and to remove the filthy and torn garments that we have been passed down to us from centuries past!
My desire is to meet him on that final Yom Kippur – that final judgment day….and He looks at me and smiles….and says…’well done’.
How can that happen if I choose to walk in the well worn rut of my forefathers?
Well said. Thanks Pam.
So well said Pam
Hi Jan,
All kidding aside, it’s not about what we “know” as much as it is about how we conduct ourselves and what we do with this gift of life we’ve been given. (btw, these are just personal thoughts) How we believe and/or if we believe what God reveals to us will make a direct impact on how we interact with those around us. The questions we might need to ask ourselves may be things like, are those who are witnessed to (in action and word), concerning Yeshua and the Kingdom of God, drawn in fear or in love? Is the salvation we proclaim by the life we live about getting to heaven (only) or is it about deliverance in the here and now (or both) and is it about God, or is it about us!!?
The issues and implications are various and many so, in short, that will have to do for now.
1Jo 4:12 ¶ No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
“perfected in us” It’s an ongoing process, isn’t it? It makes no difference where we’re at, God’s able to reach us, however we still have choices to make. Do we belive what God says, or what man says He says! 🙂 Frankly I’m not interested in whether a teaching or doctorine is Jewish or Christian or neither. What I am interested in is, is it biblical (in the purest sense of the word)? While I will continue to give proper honor to the Jewish people as God’s chosen vessel for His revelation, and to the Church as the institution of ministry to the nations, my sole desire is to know and believe the God who loves us and saves us. That brings me to this verse,
1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
“BECAUSE as He is, so are we in this world” How we look to the day of judgement is related to our conduct in this life. Are we “like” Him? Do we act like Him, and do we reflect His Image? Hard questions for sure, but we’re told to work out our faith with fear and trembling. It’s serious buisness as far as God is concerned so I suppose it should be for us as well.
Here’s the whole of the passage, just sos’ I don’t leave anything out. Its ALL good.
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son, the Saviour of the world.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God,and we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
We love him, because he first loved us.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
How do we “love” God!?
YHWH Bless you and Keep you…..
“God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.”
Hi Robert,
I was just thinking about perfection and how life in this world is so far from perfect
Although I must admit that relative to most I have nothing to complain about 🙂
I like your quote from John above; I tend to think of God as the Other inside of us
On the Other of the Door 🙂
Hi Micheal,
You wrote, “I was just thinking about perfection and how life in this world is so far from perfect.”
While I understand what you’re saying I often wonder if we get the fact that God has allowed all things to happen for His purposes. I find myself rejecting the “imperfect” as not God’s will and the “perfect things” as more or less from God. God has shown me much in my life that has been “bad” that has led me to Him and it turned out to be the “perfect” thing for me. God seems to be teaching His people that, “though He slay me, yet in Him I will trust.”
That doesn’t make me a believer in “set destiny” (quite the opposite) however it does make me realise that God retains sovernity in all things. Remember that passage about the stumbling of the jews becoming the springboard for the salvation of the nations? Who’d a thunk it!!?
“perfect”, by who’s standard!!? 🙂
Just an added thought:
Me make poor choices, and we can suffer from them,…. OR,.. me can make poor choices, and by subsequently following God — he can turn the disaster on it’s head and make it a blessing.
I followed my lust, and at age 18 I found myself married with children. I don’t think God it was God’s intended approach to marriage. However, I have now been married 16 years to that same woman, and I can’t imagine life without her. Our problems have always been a tiny fraction of those experienced by any of our family and friends. I feel incredibly blessed! However, I think this blessing has been DESPITE, NOT BECAUSE, the way we started out.
I also flunked out of medical school about two years ago. Many wonderful things have happened since then, but I don’t think it was necessarily “God’s Plan” for me to squander the opportunity, launch my family into debt, and stress the crap out of my darling wife. However, as I have sought God more fervently and desperately since the “Great Flunking” — I think God has turned the disaster to an opportunity and a positive disciplining process.
God’s providence includes so many contingencies for our own stubbornness. This is part of His charisma. A Perfect Planner can deal with disasters, and can turn the arrows of the enemy back on himself.
Thanks, Gabe – love your openness and honesty. You’re in good company, btw. Do you think if Abraham (offered his wife up, twice, to save his own skin), Moses (killed a man and then covered up the evidence, literally) or King David (murder and adulterer) showed up in any of our churches today that they’d be allowed to preach or teach? Not to mention Solomon, a serial womaniser who obviously didn’t know when enough was enough. Yet look how God used them.
I have to admit that I’ve not lived a “perfect” life either. Plenty of wasted time, effort and so on. With maturity comes (hopefully) greater wisdom, and I hope that I can use however many years God grants me from here on more wisely than I did some of the first 44. Thankfully the scripture isn’t shy about showing the flaws of those “heroes of the faith”. It gives us all hope. 🙂
What I have observed as an educator of graduate students who are mostly pastors is that far too often our doctrinal positions prevent us from actually examining what we believe. We are trained to accept a certain set of theological beliefs. Usually we accept these WITHOUT seriously examining them, either historically or linguistically or culturally. We allow those who are “professionals” to tell us what the Bible says rather than being Berean and searching the Scriptures for ourselves. This leads to an intellectual paralysis – the view that what I believe is right because it is what I have always believed OR (worse) because “God has revealed it to me.” While it is true that God may provide you with insight and emotional comfort simply by reading a text, it is not generally true that theological depth comes from divine PERSONAL revelation. History is replete with examples of sincere men and women who believed that God revealed something directly to them (via the Spirit, for example) but whose “revelation” was inconsistent with Scripture or clearly tied to cultural norms. Understanding takes WORK, not instant illumination. I am particularly wary of those who speak on behalf of God as if He were their personal advisor but who do not acknowledge or understand the impact of culture, language or historical situation. There are just too many cases where proclamations of divine intention turn out to be utter nonsense. No, we are far better served by hashing it out for as long as it takes even if we never agree. The “gift of the Spirit” is no substitute for study. As Os Guinness once said, evangelicals are particularly prone to the error of firm bodies but fat minds.
Hi robert,
Please see my comments inline:
Robert: “I often wonder if we get the fact that God has allowed all things to happen for His purposes.”
Mike: That’s a very good point!
Robert: I find myself rejecting the “imperfect” as not God’s will and the “perfect things” as more or less from God.
Mike: I know what you mean, for me “perfectionism” can be a sort of “Mental Disorder”
Mike: On the one hand, I can see “much in my life that has been “bad” that has led me to Him and it turned out to be the “perfect” thing for me.
Mike: On the other hand, I tend to project my “perfectionism” onto others and try to change them rather than accept/love them as they are (God’s Will)
Robert: That doesn’t make me a believer in “set destiny” (quite the opposite) however it does make me realise that God retains sovernity in all things.
Mike: I share your belief 🙂
Don’t you find it interesting that the projection of “perfection” (those things that WE decide fit into our version of the “perfect” world) is exactly the way PLATO describes hope. Hope in Greek philosophical thought is the projection of personal wish fulfillment that desires to bring about the Good. But this is not the Hebrew idea of hope. Nevertheless, have you ever stopped to consider just how much the Greek idea actually influences your thinking – so much so that the recognition of the difference between what I want and what God does is EVEN A CONSIDERATION.
How do we “love” God!?
Hi Robert,
By loving other people?
Seems to be same-o-same-o!!
Thank you for this detailed explanation of Matthew 10:28. It makes so much more sense to me the way you have explained it. I would be interested to know what you think about all the “either/or” controversies in the church, for example, “either predestination or free will.” Are these also a result of the Hellenization of Christian thought? It seems that we have a need to categorize everything, placing things neatly in boxes so that we think we can understand them. But Yeshua spoke in paradoxes, and neat explanations forfeit the essence and mystery of God. Jewish thinking is different; even Tevye in The Fiddler on the Roof was a better theologian! There is a back and forth dialogue, assessing the different facets of a problem:
“On the one hand…..But on the other hand…” I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Thanks so much for this site, and, by the way, it’s okay with me if you miss a day now and then. 🙂
We can all learn from Teveye – and from each other. Seems our biggest problem is failing to hear (Shema) our Creator over ourselves. We can’t become like our Father unless we release the lies of this distorted world. If I’m not stumbling forward towards my Father then I’m not on His path. Love this site and all you like-minded brothers and sisters.
Greek thinking and Greek paradigms in theology seek answers that result in doctrine and creed. Greek thinking aims at conformity of thought and certainty. This actually works pretty well within certain “games” described by fixed rules. Mathematics, for example, provides certainty as long as you stay within the parameters defined by the game. But life isn’t like that, or at least it seems not to be. The biblical worldview reflects life as DIALOGUE with plenty of fuzzy edges and lots of unanswered questions. Sometimes it seems it is even difficult to state the question, let alone the answer. This Hebraic paradigm focuses on the experience and practice rather than on the cognitive articulation and analysis. It is therefore able to embrace controversy and even contradiction, since that is the usual experience of life as well.
It takes a long time to understand how much our cultural ASSUMPTIONS actually shape the way we view reality. My suggestion is that the “body-soul” dualism is a cultural artifact, not a biblical one. Try to imagine a worldview and a language that did NOT incorporate this dualism. Just attempting to think about this shows you how much it is part of your present reality, a reality that is the result of your cultural assumptions, not the result of some independent, objective existence. God speaks in Hebrew. If we are going to understand Him, we need to think in Hebrew. Greek is NOT Hebrew, but Greek is the basis of the entire Western world.
I WOULD THINK THAT GOD SPEAKS IN ALL LANGUAGES – NOT JUST HEBREW – HOW LIMITING IS THAT FOR THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE – IT IS STATEMENTS LIKE THAT ONE THAT SEEMS VERY VERY UNREALISTIC TO ME…
“God speaks in Hebrew. If we are going to understand Him, we need to think in Hebrew. Greek is NOT Hebrew, but Greek is the basis of the entire Western world.”
GOD IS NOT IN A HEBREW BOX NOR DO I THINK HE WANTS TO BE IF HE IS THE GOD THAT I KNOW… DID HE NOT CONFUSE THE PEOPLE THAT WERE SO ARROGANT AS TO BUILD THE TOWER OF BABEL BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL OF ONE TONGUE – HE/GOD DID NOT LET THAT HAPPEN & YOU SAY THE ABOVE???
I think you are missing the point. God CHOSE to reveal Himself in Hebrew. Why He did that is not abundantly clear, but that He did it certainly is. It is therefore incumbent upon us to learn His language, not to insist that since He is God He should communicate to us in OUR language. The statement does not suggest that God CANNOT communicate in any language. Certainly He can. It simply says that He chose to use Hebrew. I expect that assumption is that He wants us to learn about Him in the language He chose to use. We can, of course, insist that God speak to us in our language and ignore the structure, patterns and culture of Hebrew, but then if we do that, who is acting like God?
Do not mistake FACT for RESTRICTION. God Himself restricted His revelation to Hebrew. That is a FACT of history, not a restriction on what He is capable of doing. Who are we to say that He should have done it in English?
God is speaking to us today through The Holy Spirit whom He has given to us to “lead us into all truth” (John 16:13). He speaks to us continually, (in our hearts and minds, in our language, not Hebrew unless you are a Hebrew speaker) teaching us (1 Corinthians 2:3), reminding us of all things that Jesus taught (John 14:26), guiding, correcting, and convicting us of sin (John 16:8).
“The just shall live by his faith” (Habakkuk 2:4). God expects us to trust what He has already done, search the Scriptures daily, respond to the Holy Spirit within, and live by faith, not by sight (Matt.16:4; John 20:29)
I know that you’ve taught that Matthew might have been written in Hebrew originally, but except for that, isn’t the rest of the new Testament written in Greek, and isn’t it inspired? Why should we be looking at Luke’s writings and Paul’s letters to the gentiles and filtering them through the Hebrew world view?
God has not restricted His revelation to Hebrew, unless the New Testament doesn’t count as part of His revelation.
WHY DO INSIST ON TAKING WHAT I SAY & TWISTING IT TO OUR ADVANTAGE??? I DID NOT SAY THIS, “not to insist that since He is God He should communicate to us in OUR language.” I WAS SAYING HE CAN CHOSE TO SPEAK IN WHATEVER LANGUAGE HE WANTS TOO…
WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING/STATING/TYPING THIS: “We can, of course, insist that God speak to us in our language and ignore the structure, patterns and culture of Hebrew, but then if we do that, who is acting like God?” NO ONE HAS EVER STATED SUCH ON THIS SITE THAT I CAN RECALL…
NO ONE IS SAYING THIS: “Who are we to say that He should have done it in English? WE ARE SAYING/STATING/TYPING JUST THE OPPOSITE – THAT HE CAN DO IT WHATEVER LANGUAGE HE CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO OTHERS – NOT JUST HEBREW…
I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT FROM YOU: “God Himself restricted His revelation to Hebrew.” THAT IS NOT THE TRUTH… HE HAS REVEALED HIMSELF TO MANY OVER THE EONS & NOT IN HEBREW – IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE WHERE THEY COULD UNDERSTAND HIM…
WHAT ABOUT INDIGENOUS TRIBES THAT WILL NEVER STUDY OR KNOW THE SLIGHTEST THING ABOUT HEBREW OR A HEBREW GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT – AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD THAT WILL NEVER EVER KNOW HEBREW OR TEACHINGS LIKE YOURS – WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT THEM IN REGARD TO THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT – IT JUST DOESN’T MAKE SENSE…
Bill, you wrote;
All of the NT writers were Jewish, if not by ethnicity then by practice. Yes, even Luke. He may have been a gentile proselyte, but he was writing to Theophilus. Who was Theophilus? There is a growing scholarly opinion that he was in fact the son-in-law of Caiaphas and High Priest in Jerusalem. If this was the case then he was a Sadducee. Luke’s gospel, more than any of the others, seems to be aimed largely at addressing and countering specific aspects of the Sadducean beliefs, perhaps in the hope that Theophilus would use his influence to reduce or stop the Sadducean persecution of the followers of “The Way”.
What about Paul? Paul’s own testimony should answer that question:
By Paul’s own testimony he remained true to his Jewish faith and practice. He was writing to mixed assemblies of both Jews and gentiles and his thought patterns were thoroughly Hebraic. Every doctrine of Paul (Sha’ul), Peter (Keefa), John (Yochanan), Jude (Yehuda) and Jesus (Yeshua) can be found first in the Tanakh. In fact, I will go even further – every doctrine of the NT can be found first in the Torah. Right down to salvation by grace, through faith.
I know not why God’s wondrous grace
-To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
Redeemed me for His own.
~But know Whom I have believed,
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
Unto Him against that day ~ (2 Timothy 1.12)
I know not how this saving faith
To me He did impart,
Nor how believing in His Word
Wrought peace within my heart.
~But know Whom I have believed,
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
Unto Him against that day ~ (2 Timothy 1.12)
I know not how the Spirit moves,
Convincing men of sin,
Revealing Jesus through the Word,
Creating faith in Him.
~But know Whom I have believed,
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
Unto Him against that day ~ (2 Timothy 1.12)
I know not what of good or ill
May be reserved for me,
Of weary ways or golden days,
Before His face I see.
~But know Whom I have believed,
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
Unto Him against that day ~ (2 Timothy 1.12)
I know not when my LORD may come,
At night or noonday fair,
Nor if I walk the vale with Him,
Or meet Him in the air.
~But know Whom I have believed,
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
Unto Him against that day ~ (2 Timothy 1.12)
THIS GRAPHIC REMINDS ME OF THIS DISCUSSION:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=238491596206531&set=o.167221928517&type=1&theater
What doe Paul mean when he says he would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord?
“What doe Paul mean when he says he would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord?”
Hazarding a guess: I can focus on the pain in my neck, the pleasure of good food, or the presence of God
Jan,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoNtj27a6Rk&feature=related
Alfie ~ Burt Bacharach
What’s it all about, Alfie?
Is it just for the moment we live?
What’s it all about when you sort it out, Alfie?
Are we meant to take more than we give
or are we meant to be kind?
And if only fools are kind, Alfie,
then I guess it’s wise to be cruel.
And if life belongs only to the strong, Alfie,
what will you lend on an old golden rule?
As sure as I believe there’s a heaven above, Alfie,
I know there’s something much more,
something even non-believers can believe in.
I believe in love, Alfie.
Without true love we just exist, Alfie.
Until you find the love you’ve missed you’re nothing, Alfie.
When you walk let your heart lead the way
and you’ll find love any day, Alfie, Alfie.
Burt Bacharach – What’s it all about, Alfie?
Back in the 70’s, when I lived on the alley in a very old redwood house in Del Mar
There was a big new vacation home built right across from me on the beach
One Halloween night there was a knock on the door and much to my surprise
Burt Bacharach and Angie Dickenson were standing with their little girl, trick or treating
Many verses refer to various aspects of the immaterial part of humanity. The soul, spirit, heart, conscience, and mind are somehow connected and interrelated.
Any Bible owner can make your own list to study. I dare you to let the Holy Spirit be Who HE is, your Teacher.
Num. 16: 22 “But they fell on their faces and said, “O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?”
Rom. 12:2 “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”
Mark 14: 38 “Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Prov. 4:23 “Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life,”
Acts 23:1 “Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, ‘My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.”
Matt. 10: 28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Hebrews 4:12: “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
This Hebrews verse is KEY, telling us at least two things about this debate. The soul and spirit can be divided, and the division of soul and spirit is something that only God can discern.
Better focus is on The Creator, Who I stand in total awe of, He has graciously (I’m so thankful!) made us: “fearfully and wonderfully” (Psalm 139:14)
I like that you brought up the “Holy Spirit” in this conversation, since even our idea about what the Holy Spirit is — could potentially be tainted by false assumptions. I like Jeff Benner’s description of the “Spirit”, which fits nicely with Yeshua’s description to Nicodemus.
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Benner:
The Hebrew word ru’ach literally means the wind and is derived from the parent root rach – a prescribed path. The word rach is not found in the Biblical text but is defined by the various child roots derived from it. The child roots derived from this parent root are ARACH, RACHAH and YARACH.
ARACH – is a traveler who follows a prescribed path from one place to another.
RACHAH – is a millstone which goes round and round in the sense of following a prescribed path to crush grain into flour.
YARACH – is the root of yere’ach meaning the moon which follows a prescribed path in the night sky.
The child root ru’ach is literally the wind that follows a prescribed path each season. By extension ru’ach means the wind of a man or what is usually translated as spirit. A man’s wind is not just a spiritual entity within a man but is understood by the Ancient Hebrews as his character.
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Also, I don’t know that most Christians can distinguish between their “soul” and “spirit”, even using a Greek mindset. Most Christians use these pretty interchangeably in my experience. The verse doesn’t say, “…dividing soul and body….”, either, so I don’t know that it has much bearing on the conversation.
More to the point, is the Holy Spirit a magical force that gives us some sort of psychic ability to tell the truth? Is it like downloaded insight and virtue? Or is this Holy Spirit [Set-Apart Character] something that we gain through a thoughtful and desperate seeking of God, to mend our broken condition?
I don’t know who Benner is, but I do know who the Holy Spirit is. Its very true, He isn’t spoken of much on this site. Maybe you don’t know him? 🙁
The Holy Spirit is God, the third person of the Trinity, and is clearly seen in many Scriptures.
Acts 5:3-4. Peter confronts Ananias as to why he lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had “not lied to men but to God.”
Ps. 139:7-8 declares His omnipresence, “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.”
Rom. 8:26-27 tells us the Spirit intercedes for us.
Being fully God, the Holy Spirit can function as the Comforter and Counselor that Jesus promised He would be in John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.”
There are other verses, too.
GABE, LET ME ACT IN THE WAY OF THE PROPHET THAT YOU SPOKE OF PREVIOUSLY & WARN YOU THAT YOU ARE TREADING ON SHAKING GROUND WITH YOUR DISRESPECT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOUR POST:
“More to the point, is the Holy Spirit a magical force that gives us some sort of psychic ability to tell the truth? Is it like downloaded insight and virtue? Or is this Holy Spirit [Set-Apart Character] something that we gain through a thoughtful and desperate seeking of God, to mend our broken condition?”
I WOULD SAY WITH THE ABOVE STATEMENT YOU JUST TYPED YOU SURELY DON’T KNOW WHO HE/THE HOLY SPIRIT IS… DID YOU SAY THE ABOVE OR ARE YOU QUOTING BENNER & IF IT IS BENNER I HAVE NO NEED TO KNOW HIM NOR DESIRE TO READ ANY OF HIS DECEPTION…
Jan, those were questions about the Holy Spirit, not comments.
If someone ‘knows the Holy Spirit’, I think they should be able to say something about what they know (although I know these themes can be difficult to articulate). I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a “magical force”, however, many Christians treat it as such – even if they would not dare to use that particular vocabulary. Those questions were meant as starting points, so that Dorothy could clarify or contrast her views. She said the Holy Spirit wasn’t spoken of much here, so I was opening the door for more dialogue.
The prophets I spoke of earlier were the biblical prophets like Amos and Jeremiah who gave consistent warnings to the people about false worship. I think the people, conversations, and ideas presented in this forum help me see more clearly between the true and the false. Otherwise, why would I waste my time reading things here? I also do not think Skip is a prophet, which it seems what you were insinuating.
Jan, you seem very edgy today. What gives? I have to admit, you hurt my feelings a bit when you said that I obviously don’t know the Holy Spirit. 🙂 Can we give each other the benefit of the doubt a little more here?
WELL WHO SAID THOSE THINGS ABOUT HOLY SPIRIT – BENNER??? I WOULD BE AFRAID TO SAY THOSE THINGS YOU POSTED ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT. IF IT WERE YOU & NOT BENNER STATING/TYPING THOSE THINGS ABOUT HOLY SPIRIT – I WOULD STILL SAY YOU DON’T KNOW HIM – SO WHO MADE THOSE STATEMENTS – THAT IS THE QUESTION I ASKED – WAS IT YOU OR BENNER???
NO, I AM NOT INSINUATING THAT SKIP IS A PROPHET BUT PROBABLY PROPHETIC TO SOME POINT AS WE ALL SHOULD BE IF GOD CHOOSES TO USE US IN THAT MANNER – IN PARTICULAR TO WARNING PEOPLE. I DID NOT MEAN TO HURT YOUR FEELINGS BUT I HAVE NEVER EVER HEARD ANYONE SPEAK OF HOLY SPIRIT IN THAT MANNER – SEEMED VERY VERY DISRESPECTFUL & NOT KNOWING HIM AT ALL…
@Gabe – wonderful insight into a deeper revelation of how ‘we’ should be trying to walk our lives out …
“And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone (RACHAH) tied around his neck.”
Mark 9:42
Hi Gabe,
Benner’s definition of millstone (RACHAH) is very interesting in the context you provided
The associations with the wind and moon are also very interesting to me
Regarding a man’s character:
“A man’s wind is not just a spiritual entity within a man but is understood by the Ancient Hebrews as his character.”
My mother would always make a comment when a conversation would contain the name of someone whom she thought was “full of hot air”
The millstone is interesting. Samson also ground a millstone before he found redemption.
I’ve also found that when God went to find Adam in the Garden, it was during the “cool” of the day – I always thought it was a strange detail, but it turns out the it’s the [breeze/wind/ruach] of the day. I haven’t figured out the significance, yet, but it has to be something because otherwise it would be such a random detail to include.
I’ve also wondered why God chose to institute the Jewish calender based on moon cycles, since it seems inferior to a solar calender, but I really think God had a purpose for it which is for our benefit to discover.
Why do you think the solar calendar is superior? First, it isn’t regular (364.25 days). Second, it would have been a concession to the culture that worshipped the sun. Third, doesn’t God choose the lesser most of the time. I am sure there are many other reasons. But even your comment betrays a cultural assumption that isn’t found in Scripture. How easily we become part of the environment that nurtures us.
Sorry, Jeff Benner is the main guy of the “ancient hebrew research center”, a website devoted primarily to studying “Paleo-Hebrew”. There are hits and misses on the site, IMO, but lots of good stuff. I especially like his emphasis on the concrete meanings of what we think of a fairly conceptual words.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_home.html
The above address has some very common words used in the bible. I suggest clicking on “truth”, “faith”, and “wilderness” — for some great examples of how a Hebraic understanding of those common words will enrich scripture reading.
————————————————————————————————-
I’m not trying to be confrontational (I guess it’s effortless 🙂 ), but please understand that all the arguments you are posing are incredibly familiar to me because I learned them and espoused them for so many years. Perhaps our experiences, heart, or faith would have been drastically different — but the words, proof texts, and assumptions seem identical.
I suppose if I should appeal to experience, it’s to say that only after seeking and learning more about what scripture is actually saying (e.g. Hebrew vs. Greek) — has Christianity become a powerful force in my life. I have more and more continuous feelings of love and adoration for God than I ever have, and I can sense my character being transformed. It’s drastically over-simplifying things, but with my prior Greek-like understanding – scripture was much more schizophrenic and there were so many more things that I needed to “wait until heaven” to be explained. I know a lot of this comes off as an “I used to be like you..” speech, but I only want to assure you that my position does not come from a lack of familiarity with verses like John 14:16.
The bible used to be a book of blessings for me, and warnings for others. However, the more seriously I took the warnings as being directed to me personally — the more blessings have come. This site is something I believe God has used to warn me about some of the idols I have set up in my heart and my house. Why do you come here? Are you trying to set us poor and deceived souls free from Babylon? Or, is there something of value here, and you are simply trying to glean the wheat from the chaff like all of us?
As far as your question goes, “Maybe you don’t know Him?” [the Holy Spirit] – How is the Holy Spirit different from Yeshua, or God the Father? Could I even know only one and not the others? Which One told Moses to stone the Sabbath Breaker in Numbers 15:35? This verse used to seem out of character with the God I believed in, or did I just have a Pacifist-idol set up? I think I know the Holy Spirit better than I ever have in my life, and that is exciting, but is there a point I should have already ‘arrived’ at? What was the point where you KNEW that you KNEW the Holy Spirit? I only ask because your question suggest something more concrete.
I’LL THINK ON ALL THOSE QUESTIONS ABOVE BECAUSE I HAVE TO GO TO BED NOW IN ORDER TO RISE EARLY FOR WORK – I DIDN’T WANT TO JUST LEAVE YOU HANGING ON MANY THINGS YOU ASKED…
@ Jan – please do not take offense – but could you turn off your caps key? It is difficult to read your responses when everything is in capital letters . thank you
Pam, Jan, this reply is truthful –yet a perfect example of the “difference in all our thoughts and ways: I laughed when I read Pam’s reply above to turn off the caps keys, because at 79 years of age and new glasses in limbo for me for about three years– ( eye surgery–waiting to have more surgery before new glasses, then the last pair I had were totally broken -not to be repaired-when I fell , –the story continues with so many other prior needs first for my 83 year old husband, and all the people we minister too here in this town close to a large military base—) With that all said, I have loved Jan writing in all caps, I CAN READ IT SO EASILY!
— BE BLESSED ALL WHO READ THIS– HOPE AND PLAN TO WRITE ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHEN I FIND TIME. LaVaye
I love it… brought a smile to my face LaVaye – I’m 60 and still on readers – and so it goes – we all look through different specs 🙂 be BLESSED …
Is God “knowable?” May a sinful man (or woman) know God (who is holy?) And how do we know Him?
~ Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent ~ (John 17:3)
and of course the Christian’s favorite: (John 3.16).
And hasn’t “Christian bashing” become our favorite sport!
Not much is mentioned about Calvary on this website,- I’ve been watching and waiting for it for years. I do like the Hebrew word studies though,- I have gleaned/learned much from the words of God. But I’ve never heard “tslav”- the execution stake mentioned- why is this?
But here is what I suggest. God is Sovereign. The fact (and it is a fact) is the O.T. was written in Hebrew and the N.T. was written in Greek. So what do we have here? A divided Book? Not a chance, no not one. Not division, but wonderful unity and clarity. These are not in competition, but in cooperation! Just like the two halves of our brain, just like male and female, Greek and Hebrew complement one another- and the N.T. is a commentary about the O.T. One is shadow, the other substance. One is a foretelling- -the other is a fulfillment. We need “both.” The Master Theme of the book God wrote is: “Behold the Lamb”
And to further clarify, -and oh how we all need clarity, -btw, we “Christians” (please do “call me” a Christian- a little Christ), we are children of light, -confusion belongs in the camp of the Philistines, not in our lives- God has given us light and light is that which reveals.
Are we ready for some good news? Or shall we continue with our bickering, strife and division over “who’s who”- and what’s what? Here is the good news- the “gospel” good news.
Christ died for sinners.
I am a sinner.
Christ died for me.
But that is not the end of the story. No, -there is more. So much more..
Christ died. This much is true. Any doubters among us? No? Good, maybe we can be settled on this. Christ was cruelly crucified on a hill called Mt. Calvary. Amen?
But something happened “after.” An event, often overlooked. Something occurred within the then existing temple. A veil was torn. Torn from top to bottom.
In the words of the scripture: ~ what meaneth this? ~
What about the torn veil? Torn from top to bottom. And this was no piece of Belgian lace. Man did not do this. God did. – Why? Why the torn veil? – Where was this veil located? Anyone remember?
(You) tell me- what about the torn veil? Is this also “good news?”- I’m listening (intently) for your response. What is your response sir? What is your response m’am?- to the testimony of this torn veil?
Do we (as in- anyone) now (today) have access? – I am ready to hear your confession, and until then here is my confession:
Thank you for the cross, LORD
Thank you for the price You paid
Bearing all my sin and shame
In love You came
And gave amazing grace
Thank you for this love, LORD
Thank you for the nail pierced hands
Washed me in Your cleansing flow
Now all I know
Your forgiveness and embrace
Worthy is the Lamb
Seated on the throne
We crown You now with many crowns
You reign victorious.
We serve a Living Savior.
And until we know Calvary’s Love- we will never know. This, is Love worth finding.
I have been blind, unwilling to see
The true love you’re giving.
I have ignored every blessing.
I’m on my knees confessing
That I feel myself surrender
Each time I see Your face.
I am staggered by Your beauty,
Your unassuming grace.
And I feel my heart is turning,
Falling into place.
I can’t hide
Now hear my confession.
I have been wrong about You.
Thought I was strong without You.
For so long nothing could move me.
For so long nothing could change me.
Now I feel myself surrender
Each time I see Your face.
I am captured by Your beauty,
Your unassuming grace.
And I feel my heart is turning,
Falling into place.
I can’t hide
Now hear my confession.
You are the air that I breath.
You’re the ground beneath my feet
When did I stop believing?
Cause I feel myself surrender
Each time I see Your face.
I am staggered by Your beauty,
Your unassuming grace.
And I feel my heart
Falling into place.
I can’t hide
Now hear my confession.
I can’t hide
Now hear my confession.
Hear my confession: Jesus Christ IS (not was) LORD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSmlBDtEQDk&feature=related
I appreciate your desire to see more about the cross on this web site. My orientation is really toward the empty tomb, since the cross means nothing without the resurrection. But that is for another discussion.
While it is true that the majority of the New Testament was written in Greek (the letters primarily), it is not true that classic Greek “complements” Hebrew. The New Testament authors were all Jewish in one form or another and their use of Greek is based oin the Greek of the LXX, not the Greek of Plato and Aristotle. That means that the choices of Greek words, and in some cases the invention of new Greek words, were attempts to capture Hebraic concepts. If WE followed the same pattern, we wouldn’t have such problems with interpretation. But we don’t follow this pattern since we are the product of the classic Greek culture. So our definitions of the Greek terms often follow the ideas of Plato and Aristotle rather than the rabbis. That’s why it is important to distinguish different forms of Greek. And that’s why it isn’t appropriate to assume that our English translations actually capture the Hebrew ideas, as we clearly see with the term hesed translated in Greek as eleeo (mercy). If you thought that hesed was mercy, you would be mistaken. But how would you know unless you realized that the LXX uses eleeo for hesed?
Skip, I remember when several of us ‘voted’ for you to completely comb out the Book of Ruth, and after a few car showings and such, lol, you did it! With audio. I was amazed.
The words you could empty out on a study of the cross would be such a treasure house to get into. I have recently been studying on the lessons of the cross and crown of thorns.
The cross, “tslav”- being the intersection of God’s love and His justice, offer enormously rich fields to explore!
The Roman soldiers unknowingly took an object of the curse (Gen. 3: 17-18), and fashioned it into a crown for the One who would deliver us from that curse. (Gal. 3:13). While intended to be a mockery, the crown of thorns was a symbol of who Jesus is (King) and what He came to accomplish.
Please do think about our request for a study on the cross–don’t say yes or no–surprise us. Carl has waited for years. I’ll watch and wait with him, (but I won’t ask again)
I agree Dr. Moen, but I also believe God is fully capable of not only saying what He means, but He also means what He says. Case in point- (today’s chosen word: “hesed.” ) Love this Bible word. It is a word of mercy, but (of course, and again.. typically- so much more!). Hesed is a covenant word. It is a blood-covenant word. Oh yes!- Let us speak of the blood covenant- the new covenant God has established with us through the blood of the chosen Lamb. We are Mephibosheth (just my type) feasting “At God’s Table” (sounds familiar!) because of David’s friendship (another covenant word) with Jonathan. Grace, grace and Hallelujah!- more grace! O, the depths of His “hesed!”
Lovingkindness (I agree- a poor translation) is the English for “hesed”. Yes, we do need (desperately) the Hebrew background, but also need to remember all these things have been fulfilled and revealed in and through Calvary’s Lamb- the LORD Jesus (who is the) Christ.
There are those who take offense even at the name of Jesus, saying His name is not Jesus, but rather, more properly- (or “more gooder” as my English teacher would say) Yeshua. I don’t have a problem with this- what is His name in Spanish or Portugese or Chinese? He is (and remains) the Savior of the nations. To the Jew first (always)- but also (praise God) to the Greek, His Name(s) is Salvation! Over three hundred “titles” assigned to Him, let’s be sure to include them all next time we mention the Name which is above all names. And to think this Man, this King has invited us to feast at His table! Glory!
And what would prompt Paul, ( a Pharisee of the Pharisees) to say- “What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my LORD, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ. ” ~ For the circumcision is not anything, neither is uncircumcision; only the new creation ~ (Galatians 6.15) It is the LORD. Not religion but relationship. Christ is the center, the compass and the circumference. ~ And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself, (the Living Word).
As I said somewhere in this thread – no matter how old one gets – nothing remains the same. I am thankful there are those students of the word that are thirsty for the deeper things of Yahovah and are willing to share it with others.
For those that seem to take exception and are so resistant and argumentative to any other interpretation/idea/discussion – they truly do not know what they are missing in the deeper waters. Maybe – if this is you – would be better served learning/discussing somewhere else.
OUCH!
sorry …..didn’t mean to come off so ‘ouchy’ … just have seen so many really informative threads, teachers, people get bricks thrown at them and the discussion descend into mud slinging and divided over who is right and who is wrong -that it just saddens me that we can’t all just glean and accept whatever Abba reveals to us or someone else at some particular moment, instead of trying to make others see everything from our own tainted glasses………me included. And we all wear tainted glasses. Not saying you can not question someone – let’s just do it so that we can all be on the learning page ….. don’t agree with someone – agree to disagree and go on. ok…off my soap box – sorry if I’ve offended anyone – not my intent.
I totally disagree!! 🙂
Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Well said Pam.
The project of At God’s Table is to allow open discussion of DISAGREEMENT. How would we ever learn if we all thought the same? Theology does not move forward with doctrine. It moves forward with dialogue – with God and with others.
Perhaps we just have too many examples of fruitless disagreement, not necessarily here, but in the church in general.
If disagreement brings a rift between people most of the time, then it’s little wonder we shy away from it. However, I was thinking about the directive to “exhort one another”, which we may typically think of as causing conflict,… but scripturally, “exhorting” seemed to be a mechanism which worked to bring UNITY among believers.
So then, thanks for the opportunity to develop the ‘Godly science of disagreement’!!
ahhhhh Gabe … exactly what I meant 🙂
>>Perhaps we just have too many examples of fruitless disagreement, not necessarily here, but in the church in general.<<
Side comment/disagreement only–lol–where in the world are all these "churchs" you guys lambast all the time as so argumentive and off track and in error??? I'm not in one of those. My church is very loving. And sound-minded and Christ-centered in counselling, etc.
I've 'agreeded to disagree' with plenty people on certain topics, but remain close friends with. No split, no hate, no seperation, no failure in admin. If you don't have 'group-think' here, then quit grouping all that calls itself Christian churches into one giant blue bin marked 'looney'.
I thought Christian bashing was only from the unsaved or preverted, why am I dodging it left and right here of all places? It spews forth on this site like oxygen from the forest. I can't understand why if you love God's Son.
I found this site when looking for : "Kana, the Jewish war". Looking to learn the Jewish perspective on fasting, goodgrief, I found a war I didn't know existed. I'm sad. Really really really sad.
Dorothy,
Since pointing out the negatives is a large portion of scripture, I guess my question would be: What is it that really bothers you here? Where am I, of where are we, bashing in an “unsaved or perverted” sense? I know ‘everyone’s a critic’ gets old after a bit. And I really don’t like the way Christianity is portrayed in the mainstream media, ect,… but the answer is not to turn a blind eye to the significant problems of the corporate church.
Let’s take a look at your criticism of people who post here. To my knowledge we are all professed Christians here – are you bashing us? Or, are you exhorting your brothers and sisters in the faith? Several times now, I feel you have ignored the merits of some of my comments, and answered that I just “want to be a teacher”, “answer for Skip”, “Christian bash”, and suggested that I don’t know the Holy Spirit. I’m sure you feel you are criticizing in the right way (standing up for truth and against error), and we are doing it in a lower, fallen, and more sinister way – but in that case help this community to know the difference.
Certainly we learn from the prophets that we have a large capacity for self-delusion within the church. While it is easy to criticize, I think there is both beneficial and degrading ways to do it. Otherwise, the bible wouldn’t be so chalk-full of warnings, exhortations, and CRITICISM of those who professed to follow God.
Most of what I read here isn’t what I’d consider the degrading kind of criticism, it’s more of a call to get back onto the pathway. Most internal “arm-chair” criticism I hear of the church, in other venues, is about the superficial things such as the style of music, length of service, lack of programs, church budget line-items, ect. I don’t care about those things as much as clearing out the internal and external idolatry from my life. I want to jump up and down in church when I see a marriage saved that was on the brink. That does much more for my spontaneous desire to worship than if the music is just the right tempo for my taste.
The intended audience of the bible is those who profess to care about it’s contents — and how much criticizing do you see Jesus/Paul/and the prophets doing? What I mean to say is, the bibles intended audience (of the criticism) – is the professed followers of God. Us! “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.” – is not a code taught or practiced by Jesus. Spiritual maturity should teach us when to speak the negatives, and when to bridle our tongues.
I wish I had written this. Thanks
I think we need to make a clear distinction between “Christian” bashing and examining Christian doctrine. I believe, and have always said, that there are many, many sincere, loving, faithful followers who call themselves Christian. There experience with God is real. There conviction about salvation is real. But that is not the same as saying that their doctrine or their theological beliefs are either true or even well-considered. Since there are no sacred cows on this site, I feel perfectly correct when I raise serious issues about doctrinal positions and statements that are either not supported by Scripture (but usually by tradition) or cannot be derived from Scripture (usually from some other source). This does not demean the spiritual experience of the believer. But it does show that most believers have no idea WHY they actually believe what they do. They haven’t considered the history or the linguistic background. That’s what we go after here. If you think that is “Christian bashing,” then I ask you to reconsider your definition.
Unable to “reply” in the correct place, so I will simply put it here to be near to Gabe and Skip’s comments. Quite a bit to address, I am sick of it, so I won’t wander too much.
Gabe, I address your accusations:
1. “answering for Skip”
I already apologized and explained to you that was NOT the issue but rather that Skip let it suffice. –Hey, guys, I’m past that now. No big deal, I don’t care anymore. Can we move along?
2. “I want to be teacher”
Well, don’t you? I do, Skip does, and likely everyone does. I know my husband goes down the road wanting to ‘teach’ everyone to drive. This comment didn’t started with me as something to throw at you, but an idea that explains our strivings on this blog and I think it is a truthful point. If you are in disagreement with it, fine.
3. … and that maybe you don’t know the Holy Spirit.
I’m glad you do know Him! and I take your word for it. Now. But I guess if you’d re-read your own post, you’d see why that would even come from my mouth. You were waving around words like “who is the Holy Spirit, a magical force……etc.” What in the world can you expect others to think when you ‘Shakespeare’ from some non-Biblical writings. How was I to know they weren’t your words?
4. Gabe, you talk of church programs and type of music. Is that all you see the body of Christ doing when they meet in a meeting house-mortgaged or not? That is like criticizing a family for setting limits on TV shows viewed, or the choice of color of carpet, asserting that if a family engages in these things it is less than a true family, and therefore must not be directing the maturing of the children, etc.
5. You say “If you can’t say something nice, say nothing at all” does not apply here and Skip backs you. Okay.
But let me ask you this: Have you ever heard “If you aren’t part of the problem, and you aren’t part of the solution, then you are gossiping”?
So if you aren’t engaging in these things you highly criticize the church for, — then why gossip about the local body of believers who, at least, are not forsaking meeting together? Is the church an institution, which can have no feelings? No, it is blood bought people.
6. I accuse you of Christian bashing.
Skip asks I reconsider my definition for that term. I have. If I were to write my conclusion here it would evoke another defense. I’d rather concentrate on the exchange of ideas/beliefs/revelations were supposed to be sharing here. (at least to my understanding). My ‘point 5’ is adequate explanation on that.
7. To both Gabe and Skip, please accept my apology for any offences. I think we’re really on the same side, just a debatable issue of how many points we must collect (like the childhood game) in order to be “safe and home free”. For me, Jesus got them all.
SOOO thankful for the ability to argue. I have felt, for the last 20 years or so, that in order to get along with Christians one would have to duct tape one’s mouth, and brain, and just nod to everything everyone said. The ONLY way to learn is to argue AND you have to know two things. First, the difference between arguing and fighting, and the second is knowing the difference, as my husband says, between a tragedy and a burnt potato…most of them are potatoes.
Choking on my first draft, almost done.
“and the second is knowing the difference, as my husband says, between a tragedy and a burnt potato…most of them are potatoes.”
Cheryl that’s priceless. Can I use it please?
It reminds me of the time Ron and I set out to help a ministry several years ago. When we called to let them know we believed YHVH was calling us and we were on our way, the lady on the other end of the phone warned my husband “You gotta realize this is the wilderness!”
When He relayed this to me I told him well lets stop on the way and get a washboard so I don’t have to borrow one. When we got there we were more than a little surprised to find a small laundry facility, running water, electricity, and every other modern convenience known to man.
It just happened to be out in the country 15 minutes from a small town. And she just happened to be a lady in her twenties and from a large city in W Virginia talking to a couple of old codgers who were familiar with living totally off the grid.
My dear husband looked at me and quipped, “suffering to her would be that the timer on the microwave didn’t work! The next morning as I sat in bed with my bible and coffee it occurred to me that not having that hot cup of java would be a small but real suffering to me and it softened my heart toward her plight. It’s all about perspective isn’t it?
I too am grateful for this site and the debates/arguments that go on here. And I’m grateful for each participant whether they do or don’t understand what we crazy Torah pursuant believers suffer at the hands of the church and I even thank YHVH they don’t know first hand!
Sorry Pam, been out of town, SURE you can use it…it doesn’t belong to me…
One thing I have carried away with me from this wonderful website is the Hebrew concept of community. This (for me) came at a wonderful time, (God’s perfect timing once again displayed) as I was just starting to “live” Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. God is constantly working in each of our lives conforming us into the image of the Son. God uses people (all people) to do this. They are and we are, tools in the hands of the Master Carpenter, molding, making, shaping and (yikes!) sanding each other (sometimes through heat and friction) forming and fashioning our “inner man.” God always (surprise!) speaks to a man- through a man. Moses (surprise!) was a man. So was David. So was Paul. So am I. And so are you.
Like rocks in the tumbler, we “rub” on one another- eventually (some sooner than later) emerging polished to perfection. (God says “when.”) Know any “abrasive” people? Good. lol! -“Tools indeed!”
Yes, R W, I agree- “it’s not about me..”- but, it is about us. “We” are the body (and bride) of Christ. And included His diverse body are Jews and Gentiles, Republicans, Democrats, males, females- etc.
My opinion? ha! please.. it’s not me that matters- look to Him. Listen to Him. He (alone) has the words of eternal life. There is only ONE Perfect Man ever to have lived. (surprise!)- it is not me.
Skip,
I tried to share your teachings on body and soul with a friend and they reminded me of Luke 23:43.
I didn’t know how to respond.
Is there an easy answer to explain this verse?
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43
I’m not trying to answer for Skip, but here’s a TW on the subject:
https://skipmoen.com/2012/02/21/a-comma-here-a-comma-there-2/
Also, after the resurrection — Jesus told Mary that He had not yet ascended to the Father. So He was not ‘in Paradise’ that day himself. There are also a few other texts that point to a switch of the comma, if you are interested.
“I tell you the truth today,… you will be with me in paradise.”
Gabe got it. No point in trying to argue from the English text. It is definitely NOT INSPIRED!
Ahh yes,
Now I remember reading “A Comma Here, a Comma There.”
Why didn’t I think of that at the time.
Thanks Gabe. Thanks Skip.
*extremely* silly sounding to think Jesus would say “I tell you the truth today”.
He tells the truth all the time.
Or even to say “I tell you the truth this day”. Again, He tells the truth everyday, why point out this day? Both of those terms would be redundant to the max, and makes it very hard for me to believe!
But, I know your views, I’ve read the TW (earnestly) and discussions.
If English is not inspired, okay on that point, but even to think He meant that in any form or way, still seems simply silly, and I cannot-CANNOT-can not! get past that.
Again, I think your “I already know what this means” stance is getting in the way. Repetition for emphasis is a very common Hebrew style (e.g. Exodus 34:6 opens with “the Lord, the Lord”) There is nothing unusual about this and furthermore, since the day that this was spoken is particularly crucial, namely the day of DEATH, it would be perfectly understandable to say it explicitly. The phrasing has nothing to do with the idea of what is true or false. It is about what is important RIGHT NOW! Secondly, both Hebrew and Greek syntax is not the same as English. So the WORD ORDER is different and can be rearranged for emphasis (unlike English). The English translation is NOT a reliable source document. You must begin with the question, “What did Yeshua teach about heaven or paradise?” before you can assert that there is only one way to understand this text. I suggest that Yeshua was also a product of his culture, and therefore would not have said something to a dying man that made no sense to that man. If that man were Jewish in the first century, it is unlikely that he believed in an immediate transition to paradise upon death. What we have in the Greek text is an approximation of what was said to this man in HEBREW. So, let’s begin by examining the Hebrew teaching and then ask how it applies to the translation into Greek.
Dorothy, have you never said to your children (or heard another parent say), “Listen here! I’m telling you RIGHT NOW that if you don’t behave…”, or words to that effect?
Or, speaking earnestly to a friend, “I’ll tell you right now, that guy is nuts!”
Redundancy for the point of emphasis, in English just like in Hebrew. Of course you’re telling them “right now” – you’re not telling them yesterday, or tomorrow, are you? It is an idiomatic expression meant to get across the gravity of your concern with the current situation. Just one example of how we use redundant expressions in English too.
No, I always walked over and smacked’em — I raised them to know I told’em! (joking)
*serious face again*
Give me another example where its used in this manner in the Bible.
Why didn’t Jesus say “Verily, verily, I tell you, you’ll be with me in paradise” ? or something like I see other places. Why day specific?
How can commas be authoritative since its common knowledge that punctuation was applied to the biblical manuscripts centuries after the books were completed?
Jesus prefaced His response with the phrase, “I tell you the truth” (“Verily I say unto thee” in the KJV). We know/agree that Jesus uses this as a prefix when He is about to say something that should be listened to with care.
76 times in the NT, it is used this way. Jesus is the ONLY one who ever uses this phrase. That is noteworthy. Every one of the 76 times, Jesus said something startling–very newsworthy.
What would cause Jesus to depart from His normal way of making His signature statement by adding the word ‘today’ to it?
Then, low and behold, here’s another mystery. “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!”
and that brings us full circle in our discussions, I think.
I have only one thing to add: PLEASE – stop reading in English.
Hi Dorothy,
Here’s something that might help you get “past” that. Just a direct word for word translation of the text in Hebrew.
And called Moses to all Israel and said to them hear Israel the statutes and the judgements which I speak in your ears. Deut. 5:1
Why did he tell them that he was going to speak “in their ears”, where else are they going to recieve the sound of his voice? What Skip said about redundancy is true all over the scriptures. This is only one example, I would place a fair bet there are thousands. It seems silly to us but God makes a point with it by the way the words are laid out. I once heard an english teacher (she was Jewish) say that she was always tempted to correct the text of scripture as an english teacher would with a students paper. I had to smile because I once felt that same way. Anyway, I hope you’ll take a quick peruse through, especially, the “old” testament and that it will help you. If your tuned to this particular oddity (to us) you’ll see how dominant a theme it really is.
The punctuation can go either way, and honestly, I would put it where most translators put it. Except,… if you add other scriptures into the mix, I think the evidence tips in the “I tell you today,.” direction.
#1 Jesus suggested before and after His death that He didn’t go to heaven that day:
John 20:17
“Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”
Matthew 12:40
“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
#2 – There is some precedent for making promises “today”:
Zechariah 9:12
“Return to the stronghold, You prisoners of hope. Even today I declare That I will restore double to you.”
70 comments at last talley. Perhaps no one will see this. Does not matter, for I am compelled to speak. 1 Cor. 2:1-5 “And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified….v4. And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men (like Skip, as learned as he is ?), but on the power of God.” Amen.
Duality? With a degree and post graduate studies in business, I have no clue; except from my experience. I am Jonah. I live Gal. 5:17 every day. Perhaps I have a split personality disorder, or perhaps I am just a normal human being. I came to Christ at 35 years of age and now am approaching 64, but my flesh still battles the Spirit of God within me. My shelves are filled with books on every Christian subject you can name. I have been to India and I have lived for 4 years with people of other faiths. I cannot tell you what Christ meant because he was speaking from a Hebrew perspective because I think that is ridiculous. If Jesus was a Jew, then God and the Holy Spirit are Jewish. Is He not the God of all who believe? Who among us knows the mind of God?
I do not have the time nor the patience and most of you are way beyond my intellectual level to debate, so I will boil it down to this: “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as fas as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Heb. 4:12.
The Word of God is living and active. It transcends time and people and languages and paradigms and biases and hidden agendas and it comes alive when you receive the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God will interpret the words for you and imprint them on your heart, and if that strikes fear into the intellectual community who has made reading the Bible a science, then so be it. All I know is Christ, and Him crucified, and that is enough for me.
Father fill me with your spirit and direct my paths. May the words of my mouth and the decisions of my heart be pleasing in your sight. Work in me your will today, and do not let me be influenced by the ways of the world, but convict with the power of your Holy Spirit when I go astray. Amen.
John
I hear you, John, many people hear you.
The best thing I’ve ever learned, I learned long ago, it is simply “Jesus love me”.
I’m so glad you wrote this here today. I’m glad I checked back in one last time to see it. Thank you.
John, I wanted to say just one more thing and then I’ll stop bothering you.
I have a folder titled “Brilliant Sayings”. I just copied and pasted your entire post into it,
because I don’t want to be forgetting what you had to say.
John,
If you’ve read much at all here, you know that you are reading one of only a very few topics which invites controversy on the forum. So please, before you pigeon-hole anyone as an over-intellectual or an under-spiritual bunch, please stick around and read more. I notice that when Skip devours his Hebrew sources and writes about a deeper or different meaning for something else,.. everyone seems to applaud (including some who are challenging him here). However, when he writes about one of two topics that I can think of,… suddenly there are passive aggressive accusations that the writing is too academic, neglecting the Spirit, church bashing, being overly judgmental, claiming to have a monopoly on the truth, or just ignoring some other proof text. There ARE things I disagree with Skip on, and I have voiced those in the past, but I keep coming back because the juice is worth the squeeze.
You and I could spend hours discussing the bible and studying the wisdom contained in the English scriptures. Or, we could sacrifice the comfort of our own language and spend those same hours studying some of the original Hebrew,… or even the cultural setting that those words were spoken in. Why is one way more ‘over-intellectual’ than the other? In both situations, aren’t we straining to hear the voice of our Creator more clearly? I’m as weary of “the bible experts” as the next guy. We’ve all seen the mayhem caused by secular “Bible Scholars”. But is that really what you think is going on here? Is that why you would pay a back-handed compliment and call some here “beyond [your] intellectual level”? Why not join the conversation instead? I assure you I am not ‘too smart’ for you to interact with.
Hi John,
I read your comment! Yes, of course God can, and does, speak to people in all times and in all languages. But that isn’t the issue. The issue is how did He choose to reveal Himself IN HISTORY. And the answer is that the record we have of His self-revelation is in Hebrew (and Greek). So, while God can and does speak to us through the Spirit, and He does impress His will on our hearts, there is only ONE text for us to study and learn and that text is in a specific language to a specific people.
By the way, the verse you cites does NOT say, “for the word of God is living and active and transcends time and culture and people and languages.” You added those extras in your commentary. Clearly, understanding the TEXT requires knowing the language it was written in and the people it was written to. Do you really think you could go to India and speak only English and expect everyone there to understand all that you said.
Don’t confuse your personal experience with God with the study of Scripture. The tendency to universalize the text is firmly entrenched in our Greek paradigm, but it is neither good scholarship nor proper exegesis.
Nevertheless, I am sure glad you decided to speak out.
You said, “Don’t confuse your personal experience with God with the study of Scripture.”
Thank you Skip, sincerely. I promise never to do this, for I believe that He is more interested in my heart than my mind. I would also offer to not let the study of Scripture become a substitute for a personal experience with God; not that they are mutually exclusive, but taken to the extreme, one can overpower the other.
BTW, the language I spoke in while India did not require words. I think St Francis once said something to this effect.
Love your point about St. Francis.
Gabe: I have read and supported TW since 2006. I mostly read and digest and do not participate in the discussion because I trust my heart more than my intellect. At times, Skip’s message speaks directly to my heart, right where I am in my life circumstances at that moment and I know that is from God. Mostly however, I get weary of the constant hammering on Torah observance. It is a message and an agenda I do not agree with, yet I do not withdraw my support because I know that TW has accomplished much good in this world. 1 Tim. 1:5-7 says, “But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.”
That is why my brother.
John
Dear John,
I so much appreciate your faithful support, now more than ever since I hear what you say about your disagreement. Please don’t leave.
But I must challenge you on a few things. Not a rant and not hammering. Just a challenge. Is the real test of truth that it resonates in your heart? I don’t think you really mean this, as it suggests that YOU become the arbiter to truth. In addition, what each of us believes is a result of our history, culture, personal study and struggles. But that doesn’t make it TRUE! Muslims would claim that God speaks to them to tell them to explode themselves killing infidels. They know it is true because they feel it in their hearts. Does that make it true? “I trust my heart more than my intellect” you wrote. And I appreciate the sentiment. But surely you must see that this kind of epistemology is fatally flawed. If everyone adopted such a position, progress in understanding would be impossible. We would all become mystics, totally inwardly focused, not needing any OUTSIDE evaluation or authority. In fact, what you suggest (although I am sure you didn’t mean to) is precisely the temptation offered by the serpent to Havvah. Why listen to God’s voice OUTSIDE when you can just trust your heart? I am challenging you to rethink your FEELINGS. Yes, we need to pay attention to the movement of God in our hearts, but is that enough? It is, unfortunately, enough for those who espouse a kind of Christian mysticism (even if they don’t recognize it). Far too many Christian claim the personal insight of the movement of the Spirit. What is the result? A world where MY personal beliefs define what is true and what is false. A world where dialogue is finished and where the citadel of my heart stands impenetrable. And by the way, the Hebrew word lev (heart) means “intellect, emotions, volition” all wrapped up in one.
A second challenge: I “hammer” away at Torah obedience because I have come to the conclusion that Torah obedience is EXPECTED as a sure sign of the grace of God in my life. I do not argue that Torah obedience is required for salvation. In fact, I argue just the opposite. But I am convinced, by the study of the Word, that accepting God’s grace (hen) entails the obligation of Torah obedience as one element of hesed. Now, you can be upset about this, but being upset is not the same as demonstrating WHY this is NOT TRUE. Your heart may not resonate but then who is the arbiter of truth, you or the Word of God? And if the word of God teaches that Torah obedience is expected, are you going to argue that this is “hammering”? It is only hammering if it is an UNNECESSARY correction to common mistaken beliefs. Is it? If you think Torah obedience is NOT what God expects, then show that my argument is wrong, not that you don’t like how it makes you feel.
I would be grateful for your continued involvement. The community needs your voice. I need your challenges. Thank you, my friend.
John,
I was repenting of my tone after I pushed ‘send’. I’ve thought similarly for several of my posts in this thread — I tend to argue with past foes, through other people. So when your words echoed a familiar voice — well, let’s just say my defense is against all those who claim “legalism” for one kind of religious striving, but applaud anything on their own acceptable list.
Skip: I did not mean to convey a message that I was leaving TW because that is not the case. However, I will have to chew on your last words before attempting to digest them, and once I reach some conclusions, I will reply.
Have a good trip.
John
OK, I’ll look for your response in Italy.
My heart resonates with the thought (yes, “lev” mind-will-emotions) of a “true teacher”. One that teaches and is willing also to be taught. Very interesting (and of course beyond “coincidental”- to teach and to learn (in Hebrew of course!) are the same word! My personal prayer (and I most assuredly invite everyone’s prayers for me) is to have “lashon limudim”- that is, the heart (lev) of a talmudim/disciple. I want to be a learner. There are “things” that are “so” and things that are not so, and when the student is ready- the Teacher will show up. We each have a Teacher. (it is not Skip, neither is it me). It is God Himself. We each (and all) are taught by God and for His own purposes. How do I know this? By the word of God- friends, “it is written!” ~ But when the Father sends the Advocate as My representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—He will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you ~ (John 14.26) Stop! Stop! (in Hebrew “selah!”- the pause that refreshes, stop and think about this). We each have within us a Gift. It is a gift from the Giver of all good gifts- the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh- the holy Breath. His function? to remind me and to remind you (and that guy over there)- everything God has said to us in His holy Book- our Bible. Friends, “it’s all good!”- ~ every word of God is pure ~. Now you know, I don’t claim to be the sharpest crayon in the box- and I might be mistaken about this, but I thought I just read “every word”. Did I just read what I read? Or is there a “spin” here? Do I have a hidden agenda? None. I have nothing to do but to read it and weep. The truth? Every word of God is pure. And the rabbis were right- there is a world within a word. Words do have impact. Every word counts- and (according to God’s own words)- everyone of us will give account for every idle (non-productive) word we speak! (Matthew 12.36) Now, how did I remember this particular verse? It was God’s own Breath- living in me. He did this and used me as His tool. I like it. I want (so badly) to be “used” by Him- there is no greater joy! Hallelujah! My direct prayer? ~ Here am I (in Hebrew- “behold me”) send (and use) me. I want to be His servant. The desire of my (new and improved) heart is to serve (avad) the LORD my Elohim with ALL- my heart-soul-mind and strength!
I have learned (from this very website) to use Hebrew dashes instead of Greek commas. Heart-soul-mind and strength are all intricately and intimately connected as are we with one another.
Christ-Himself invites “whosoever will”- ~ take My yoke upon you and learn of Me- for I AM meek (God, meek?) and lowly in heart (God, lowly in heart?) and you (Skip, Mary, Gabe, Dorothy, Carl) will find rest (another underused, underestimated, mostly unknown word) “rest” for your souls. My soul needs rest? lol Most assuredly. ~Many there be that say of my soul- there is no help for him (me and you) in God. But Thou, O LORD ~ Oh, if only we would lay hold of the impact of the word of God! These four- and no more! But Thou O LORD!- What a radical game-changer. I keep your words, my brother and have an extensive file- I refer to often.. Why? Because (I know this is hard for some to grasp), but I promise “even a cultured caveman can do it!” Words have meaning. lol!- what do I mean by this? Get a grip. Cleave unto the LORD. Cleave? Doesn’t this mean “to divide with a cleaver?” No, it means to cling to. Get a grip and hang on tight. Cleave unto Who? Cleave unto the LORD. ← Don’t listen to me, listen to Him. Don’t look at me- look at Him. Don’t judge your brother, don’t condemn- Christ died for him also. Christ died for every man- we need to look upon every man, every woman as (at least) a potential brother- this is one for whom Christ died. Christ died. That is history. That is His-story. Christ died for me. That is salvation. That is deliverance. That is our only hope. But that (praise God) is by far, not the ‘”end” of His story”- No, no and no. This is the “never-ending” story. There is ONE who (now) reigns. A King. A Prophet-Priest AND King. And we may know Him, for He (Himself), the ONE who never lies or even capable of a lie, has said, ~ he that comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out ~ and His invitation remains – (as His words are everlasting)- “Whosoever will may come.”
The invitation stands. His invitation remains. The table is ready. It is God’s Table. ~ I will feed you with the finest of wheat and with honey from the rock I will satisfy you ~ No more eating tin cans with the devil’s billy goats, we have a kind, compassionate Shepherd who leads us to green pastures and restores, renews, rebuilds, rewards our souls. Who is this King of glory? The LORD- strong and mighty. The LORD- mighty to save. ~ Look to Me, and be saved/delivered, all the ends of the earth: for I AM God, and there is none else ~ (Isaiah 45.22) – Whose very Name is Salvation? – and Who did we (knowingly-willingly) crucify upon Calvary’s cruel cross?
You’re right, Carl. We all long for the true teacher. I suspect that if we were in perfect harmony with the Father, the Spirit would not only be the true teacher (as Jeremiah 31:31 suggest) but we would also HEAR and LEARN exactly what He says. Unfortunately, we are not in perfect harmony. Therefore, the process of learning is difficult, discomforting and disarming. Such is the way of sinners.
The history of Israel suggests that for some reason or another, God did not often speak to people ‘en mass’ – he sent a messenger. Israel never seemed to think they were denying God, they were always religious people. They had His word, but history suggests those who usually profess to be His followers are a stiff-necked and rebellious people.
Psalms 50:16-17 “But to the wicked God says: “What right have you to declare My statutes, Or take My covenant in your mouth, Seeing you hate instruction And cast My words behind you?”
I do not think these words were for the unchurched. The word by itself has typically been neglected by those who call themselves His people. In so many cases it is surprisingly un-reforming. So God in His mercy sent warnings through the prophets. He used people to speak/teach to the people,… even about His Word.
How often does Paul say, “Pray for the Holy Spirit, and during your devotional time you will realize further and further truth.” Or instead, how many times, does he travel to teach, or tell his recent converts to follow his example. Biblically, personal revelation was the exception to the rule, unless you see yourself as the prophet instead of one of the people. I have not been called to be an Elijah. I don’t think that would be a subjective experience, but do I think I have been called to be one of the 7000 not bowing to Baal.
I’m not arguing against personal revelation, but how can you distinguish between learning from people and learning from God, when so often God uses people to minister to other people?
🙂
Mostly 2 men [in particular] step in and answer for Skip, and Skip let my questions lay there just as if they have been answered. I do credit to you ‘guys’ the best of intentions, –just as I’d want for myself– that you have a kind heart and, as discussed, also want to be ‘the teacher’.
PLUS, the blog is an open forum, I get that, I like that.
I left a good rack of questions here and all Skip has answered me was to stop reading my Bible (seeing I only read English).
Well, I if I ever put Skip on a pedestal (which I didn’t) as superBibleman, that undid it! Lol
However, I still come to this ring, because I have to seek and dig on my own, it is preferable to pulling my hair out, and while digging/researching/praying, some awesome thoughts have taken up residence in my mind. Revealed/shown me/call it how you like it.
My Lord God has answered (off blog) the questions I had. That HE answers/teaches is, of course, not surprising since I believe it is HE that puts questions in our hearts. Only HE can satisfy the longings HE begins.
Now I am full and satisfied on this point.
Learning is NOT hard, cheer leading our viewpoints and holding high a cardboard diagram or image and trying to show others thru a tall solid brick IS hard, but learning itself is not. We stand on our soapboxes for a moment, hoping to lift our diagram higher than the crowd and that is why we “soap-box”. I just wanted to say that, but okay if no one sees the picture thru the tall wall, that is naturally always hard. Lol.
Praise to the ONE Who gave us His Son !
Dear Dorothy,
For quite a long time now, you have been asking questions and offering opinions on this blog. But in spite of the fact that I have written on just about everything you ask, and on occasion pointed you toward those pages, you continue to either ignore what has already been written and discussed, or you opt for the spiritual mysticism of personal exegesis from the Spirit. So, at this point, it seems redundant and futile to keep going over the same ground since it seems as if you have already made up your mind and are not open to any other possibilities. In other words, I have nothing more to add to your written conversation. I have already said all that I can. That you choose not to deal with the argument but rather simply repeat the same epistemological stranglehold means that I have decided no more fruitful progress can be made here.
Please don’t take this as a personal offense. Sometimes we must part ways until another experience changes the point of view. I feel bad that I was not able to help you see the circular reasoning in your view and the fatal flaw of your insistence that God protects His word regardless of the translation. But clearly I am not the right teacher for you.
My comment, Don’t read in English, was simply intended to state that your view of Scripture relies heavily on your cultural understanding of the Bible in ENGLISH TRANSLATION, and of course, it wasn’t written that way. It’s incredible difficult to see the sea we occupy when we are under the waves. Paradigms tell us not only what to believe what also what are facts. We are victims of this myopia until we deliberately extract ourselves from the water. Best of luck in your quest.
Sorry, I didn’t know you just wanted Skip to answer everything. I’ll make a note of it. I thought I was answering a general question/comment, but I suppose I was a clanging cymbal in your ears. My bad.
🙂 Cheers!
Skip does NOT answer everything and has no intention of doing so. This is a community. Everyone responds. I only comment on things that I find interesting or enriching.
I’m sorry, Gabe, I don’t mind if you answer, you’re welcome to, my point was that it seems Skip lets it suffice. I was following a trail and your reasoning was off in the brush. Be patient for you will see because I will yet complete -and post- my thoughts on it.
I gave overpowering evidence against the punctuation and you turned around and said there was a taller mountain for it. Untrue. It seems (to me) that lots of times you only say what you know Skip will agree with. There are only a few people who stand until it is God who sways them, or proves them.
Right now even the punctuation is an arrow pointing to a bigger truth here.
I’m not ready to engage you on the intended point yet Skip. Don’t cross swords while mine is still sheathed, please. [ ok, I’m ready] but family is needing focused time right now. I’m only making this post to ask Gabe’s forgiveness and anyone else I offended while barking.
Dorothy,
I don’t know how Skip would answer some of your questions. I have an idea, but I actually feel I’m one of the “new guys” around here. I get excited over a few of these topics because I became convicted of some of these things 16+ years ago. Much later, when I was searching for the meaning of ‘ezer kenegdo’ (about a year ago?), I fell onto this website. I loved the mixture of reverence and scholarship. In my past experience, biblical scholars and linguists have had very little reverence for God’s word.
Soon, I saw Skip had independently come to some of the same other doctrinal conclusions I had about Sabbath, clean foods, and the soul/spirit. It was very gratifying to see that what I found earlier, was also supported by the original language. Since then, the this Hebraic approach has brought more peace between the ‘Old’ and ‘New’ testaments than I ever thought possible. Paul is no longer talking out both sides of his mouth. Galatians and James are in agreement, ect.
I disagree with Skip, currently, on what I think his understanding is of God’s Omniscience and our free will. So please, although many of us here can be like-minded — I haven’t run across any groupies yet, so please don’t think you simply running into a lot of ‘group-think’.
Dorothy,
I gave overpowering evidence against the punctuation and you turned around and said there was a taller mountain for it. Untrue. It seems (to me) that lots of times you only say what you know Skip will agree with. (Dorothy I recognized this truth before Skip was born so you may not level that accusation at me.)
Dorothy, I’m sorry but I am compelled, at this point to jump in…OVERPOWERING EVIDENCE! You gave no such thing. It appalls me how so many people say they believe in God but refuse to BELIEVE their God. The Bible defines the Bible, even in English if you agree to listen and hear what is being said. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Are you drawn from the breast, or are you snared by semantics?
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Act 17:11 …These (Berean’s) received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit,… Ti 2:15 Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
On the other hand you were given OVERPOWERING EVIDENCE by YOUR GOD when He told Mary to not touch Him because He was not yet risen.
Who are you going to believe? Is Jesus, The Incarnate Word, the corner stone of your faith or a stumbling stone to you.
Further more Jesus said the He would be in the tomb- the heart of the earth-for three days and three nights. He knew exactly how many days/hours that was, look it up Joh 11:9. And, Mat 12:39 But he answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
As the only sign of His divinity it is vitally important for us to understand it.
Now what seems more likely; that the Messiah-God, the Redeemer-King is LYING or that you are straining at gnats to your own destruction to defend an indefensible perversion of doctrine. Believing In God is not enough, you/we/I must BELIEVE God.
There is much, much more to be said on this and related topics but I perceive that you are not open to hear the words of God. Until you are ready to give up all of your cherished idols and to fall brokenhearted and fully surrendered on the mercy of the Creator God you will not.
I beseech you first and foremost to listen to God. When the Word states a truth that IS THE TRUTH, all other interpretation falls by the way side. The Word is consistent on this this truth; Jesus DID NOT go to Heaven/ Paradise the same day that He died. Get over it and get on with it.
Ann, thank you for coming back to this point. Because I was tired, I had almost decided to leave it alone. –but now that you’ve brought it back I am grateful to continue. 🙂
Here I will insert a copy what I had said to someone(?). I forgot who.
August 6, 2012 at 7:38 pm
Why didn’t Jesus say “Verily, verily, I tell you, you’ll be with me in paradise” ? or something like I see other places. Why day specific?
How can commas be authoritative since its common knowledge that punctuation was applied to the biblical manuscripts centuries after the books were completed?
Jesus prefaced His response with the phrase, “I tell you the truth” (“Verily I say unto thee” in the KJV). We know/agree that Jesus uses this as a prefix when He is about to say something that should be listened to with care.
76 times in the NT, it is used this way. Jesus is the ONLY one who ever uses this phrase. That is noteworthy. Every one of the 76 times, Jesus said something startling–very newsworthy.
What would cause Jesus to depart from His normal way of making His signature statement by adding the word ‘today’ to it?
Then, low and behold, here’s another mystery. “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” and that brings us full circle in our discussions, I think.
I think that is pretty overpowering, –you don’t have such evidence.
But, on we go, and I respectfully reply to you, Ann:
Let’s explore the question; If Jesus was buried and rose after three days and then many days later ascended to heaven, how could He have been in paradise with the thief?
After Christ died, it was His body that was buried in the tomb. However, Jesus’ spirit/soul was not in the tomb. Jesus’ spirit was in the Father’s presence (Luke 23: 46, Eph. 4: 8)
As Jesus was hanging on the cross, paying our penalty for sin, He made a promise to a dying, repentant thief. Ever the Savior, concerned for the lost, even His own flesh in horrible pain didn’t deter His love. By the grace and power of Christ, that promise was kept. The thief’s sins were washed away, and his death that day was his entrance to paradise.
Now I know you likely don’t believe the spirit and body can be separated.
But, I do and Scripture shows it, so I continue.
When Jesus cried upon the cross, “Oh, Father, why have you forsaken me?” Matt. 27: 46,
it was then that He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” Luke 23: 46. His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to the paradise side of hades. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension.
When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him. Eph 4: 8-10.
The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged even unto today. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Jesus went to sheol, according to Eph. 4: 8-10 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”
Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.”
and 1 Peter 3: 18-20
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.”
This is what He was doing while His body was in the tomb.
His spirit returned and reunited with his body in the Resurrection, the promise of what He will do for us one day as well.
Dorothy I can see that you do not want to continue the discussion but I just wanted to say that neither the Luke nor the Eph. verses you gave address the issue. Especially the Eph nothing is said or implied in Eph 4:8-10 That anyone was Jesus with when He ascended. He captured captivity does not apply, He gave gifts clearly states that these gifts were appointments to positions in the church. This totally has no relationship to the topic.
As for the 1 Peter one I can not comment, no time reference is available to place this in any chronological order, nor is there other scripture given that sheds light on it. Usually IMO when God says something so cryptic w/o explanation He means for us to not know. Stating that you do, for a certainty know something is such and so, when God has pointed Not said it, seems to me to be tantamount to crawling far out on a very shaky limb.
Ann, (for your comfort I’ll support my limb), this is my position, or what I am trying to make clear. The portion below is copy/paste from a clearer stated source than myself, not meaning I only just happened upon it, instead I went searching for someone who could say this better than I can.
1 Peter 3:18-22 describes a necessary link between Christ’s suffering (vs 18) and His glorification (vs 22). Only Peter gives specific information about what happened between these two events. The word “preached” in vs 19 is not the usual word in the New Testament to describe the preaching of the gospel. It literally means to herald a message. Jesus suffered and died on the Cross, His body being put to death, and His spirit died when He was made sin. But His spirit was made alive and He yielded it to the Father. According to Peter, sometime between His death and His resurrection Jesus made a special proclamation to “the spirits in prison.”
My words again — I emphasis it wasn’t a salvation message — the Bible is clear there are no second chances. And I do agree that the Bible isn’t entirely clear what exactly Christ did for the three days between His death and resurrection. There are enough verses that it does seem that He was preaching victory over the fallen angels and/or unbelievers.
And at this point we can agree to disagree. That will be fine.
I don’t know who provided the quoted commentary, but the idea that “Jesus” was made sin in his spirit certainly would not have made any sense to Peter’s audience. Was any sacrifice “made sin” in its spirit? How does a bull or lamb become sin in its spirit? Furthermore, since Yeshua’s death on the cross was not a sin sacrifice (more on this later), the theology that suggests He was made sin for us at that point isn’t Scriptural either. This commentator provides a good dose of the usual Christian theology, but his conclusions stand on a Greek idea, not an Hebraic one. And if we hold this interpretation of Peter, then the comment to the thief is even more puzzling since Yeshua didn’t enter paradise that day.
Skip, you rightly point out that I quoted: “His spirit died when He was made sin” Ummhh, you know what– I didn’t much like it when I re-read it either, so I spent time in prayer and dug for ‘why’.
Maybe the com. would say that because of these 3 reasons:
Rom. 6: 23 “…the wages of sin is death…”
(by choice I am posting pcs. of the vs., but giving ref.)
Rom. 6: 10 “…He died unto sin once…”
Isaiah 53: 10 “…When You make His soul an offering for sin…”
(this one I do post entire scripture thru 12-NKJV.)
“He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.”
My reasons follow:
Sin is not confined only to the body, in fact it cannot be, else a sinner would be free when he dies, no place of confinement for his soul/spirit, no way to capture him and cause him to reap what he sowed while in the body.
Under you own teachings, “The Tanakh does not embrace, endorse or support the idea of the separation of Man into various parts.” (pt. 2 in this TW) his spirit/soul would have HAD to be made sin.
There must be a division between a human’s natural body and their intrinsic essence/nature — something that which makes them who they are from a moral standpoint. Atheists and naturalists say ‘no,’ but the Bible counters with the reality that there is a spiritual and moral side to every person that is distinct from their physical body. And Scripture also states that it is this component of a person who has inherited what is called a ‘sin nature’ that produces everything from white lies to atrocities of serial killers.
I see you post your intentions to teach that Jesus’ death was not a sacrifice for our sins.
I wonder how many will follow you into that!
So you and I will NOT ‘agree to disagree‘, our differences are irreconcilable to the first magnitude.
I choose (gladly) to believe Jesus’ words over your words.
*no apology for using the name JESUS, ever.
Please read carefully what I actually wrote. I said that his death ON THE CROSS was not a sacrifice for sin. I did not say that his death was not a sacrifice for sin. It just didn’t happen on the cross.
Ok, I re-read.
you wrote: “Yeshua’s death on the cross was not a sin sacrifice (more on this later)”
I will wait to see where else Christ died other than on the cross.
*scratchs head* Skip, you are a puzzle for the 2-to 4 years rank. Not 2-4 yeas old, 2-4 years to begin to understand what you are talking about!
And you shall in fact get an answer in a TW that is coming.
Dorothy, I have read and reread 1 Peter and I can not find anything that says that He preached to the dead in prison WHILE HIS BODY WAS IN THE TOMB. If it is in there I can’t find it. That He preached to them, at some time, I do not dispute. Please clarify if possible.
By the way, if I came across a bit strong earlier I apologize.
The history of the exegesis of this difficult passage in 1 Peter is also interesting. Not only does it suggest that the Greek dualism is NOT present in the verse as Peter wrote it, it also suggests that later commentators who were influenced by this same Greek dualism started the tradition that says “Jesus” preached to the captives in hell. But, of course, even that concept did not exist as we understand it when Peter wrote. Something else is going on here. Try asking yourself what allusions exist in this verse that would recall symbolism in the Tanakh.
Ann, Ann, (no apology needed from before),
I do have an answer for you, but the plain fact is that if I post it here, it would take up a lot of Skip’s time. I am always crosswise to his beliefs. (I didn’t use that word by chance)
If you want my email, so we can converse off site, go to: http://www.18wheelsacrossamerica.net/,
on the header go to: “Contact me”. Choose: “email BigrigSteve”. Put in necessary info, and in the body say “Hi, Dorothy”, I will get back to you.
Again, no apology needed what you choose. 🙂
>>You’re right, Carl. We all long for the true teacher. I suspect that if we were in perfect harmony with the Father, the Spirit would not only be the true teacher (as Jeremiah 31:31 suggest) but we would also HEAR and LEARN exactly what He says. Unfortunately, we are not in perfect harmony. Therefore, the process of learning is difficult, discomforting and disarming. Such is the way of sinners. <<
There is only one thing preventing us from being in true harmony ( I prefer "rightly related" or righteous) with the Father and that one thing is?.. sin. And?… ~ and if we confess our sins (say the same thing toward our sin as God says) agree with ADONAI- LORD, I am a (the) sinner.. and confess sin for what it is (deadly, destructive, divisional, etc..)- confess our need for Him, confess our need for cleansing, confessing our need to be delivered, confessing our need to be taught, confessing our need to be led, confessing our need for His guidance and for His near Presence- He has promised to supply that very need. Whatever our "needs" happen to be- (and I know this covers a lot of ground!) He, Himself is the Supply for that need!
The first thing we need for our sin (we all have sinned -according to what has been written in God's Book) is acknowledgement: "I" have sinned. I cannot confess your sins I must confess my own. I can't even confess for my own children! But I can pray to God and ask Him to convict and convince of sin for that is another function of God's Holy Breath- to convict of sin.
Me?.. guilty as charged, but I have ONE who was willing to take my place and to pay the debt I owed-He took upon Himself the punishment for my sin.~ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her actions." ~ I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance ~ (Luke 5.32) And the wisest action for this sinner would be to confess (agree with God) and repent. And what is our Father's prodigal response to our request for forgiveness?
Skip, in response to what you wrote about the solar calander:
Perhaps, I should have written more in the past-tense. Of course, I’ve always looked at the solar calender as “superior” to the lunar. My Greek mind was set on efficiency. It seems to need less adjusting, and only every four years, … also I’m very very used to it. 🙂 I know the lunar calender must REALLY be better for us in some way, because God seems to have suggested it’s use. Now I’m more curious to explore WHY God used the lesser in this case. It seems to be one more thing that invites the curious seeker to explore.
I’ve thought of ‘using the weak things of the world’, of it’s reflection (as we reflect the light of Christ). I’ve thought about animals who are effected by lunar cycles, or that perhaps we function best by concentrating on weekly and monthly increments. Maybe it shows our dependence by marking time through continually looking upward. But none of these quite scratch the itch.
I still count almost exclusively by the Roman months, has anyone else spent some time marking lunar time and could share some thoughts? I looked the other day at some super-imposed calenders, but I haven’t found anything I want to use yet.
Gabe here is a good site for lunar info.
Karaite Korner – Holiday Dates
http://www.karaite-korner.org/holiday_dates.shtm
Too much to go into. But my belief is that we are to wait upon the Lord and not be depending on our own abilities. Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. We like to be in charge it’s part of our human, Satan influenced nature. Many instances in OT times. Being stuck between the army and the deep blue sea, in the wilderness w/o food- water etc, etc. forces reliance on God. I think the very difficulty with a lunar calendar it it’s strength.
“We like to be in charge it’s part of our human, Satan influenced nature. Many instances in OT times.”
Hi Ann,
I agree with part of your argument, that “We like to be in charge it’s part of being human”
But don’t think Satan influenced “human nature,” which is a static concept anyway
God creates humanity and gives us the freedom to choose between self and God
We have a desire for tov and hara, if I understand correctly
Our “actions” might be influenced by Ha Satan, but our “nature/self” was created by YHVH
Otherwise we could not be responsible for our actions
As I understand it
Thanks Michael, I guess I sort of look at man’s sinful or carnal nature as mirrors of Satan’s fallen state i.e. our propensity for greed, pride, lust, envy. anger all the venal sins. This may not be Biblicaly accurate as you say, Otherwise we could not be responsible for our actions, and we are. The choices are ours but the template for sinful desires are sown by the adversary. IMO
“the template for sinful desires are sown by the adversary. IMO”
Hi Ann,
In my view, Ha Satan is a tool that Yahweh uses to test our faith (Think of Job)
No doubt he is a formidable adversary, but he is not a free agent (God owns him)
IMO we own our sinful desires and we are constantly tested
But we are always free to say no to temptation IMO
Thank you Ann, I’ll take a look.
Gabe, a few thoughts why the lunar calendar does what the solar calendar could never do.
The Creation, The Flood, The Exodus, The Giving of the Law are all gianormus events that reverberate down through the millennium, but they are all meaningless without the death and resurrection of Christ. He sent Israel into bondage for centuries, devastated the most powerful nation on Earth (at that time), and ordained the annual commemoration of the symbolic past and future Passing Over. He gave laws, a replica of the temple in the Holies, and rituals to point to how His plan was structured Col 2:16…of an Holy Day, of the New Moon, of the Sabbath, :17 Which are shadows of things to come…
There is a God instituted ritual that is massively under rated and misunderstood by the church in general, and that is the First Fruits/Wave Sheaf offering, the first of the three commanded harvest observances. In the lunar calendar it does not follow that the month after the 12th is auto- matically the 1st month of the next year. If the winter grain, barley being the earlier of the two, is not ripe enough for there be flour for the wave sheaf loaves then another or 13th lunar month is inserted. This observance is so important to God that it has the potential to delay THE most important, past, present, and future, event in history. This seemingly minor ritual is that important because Chris, the First Fruits of the Dead, is that important.
That the calendar days do not always fall on the same days of the week is no surprise to anyone. While the other observances of Passover are on the 10th, the lambs are set aside/Jesus enters on a donkey, on the evening of the 14th the traditional Passover is observed, Christ and his disciples celebrated the last OT Passover and He institutes the new Passover of the Bread and the Wine. During the day portion of the 14th He dies and is laid in the tomb just before the first of the 7 annual Holy Days begins.
However, the Wave Sheaf offering is always on the first day of the week (sunday to us) after the first Sabbath in the Passover week. After the end of the weekly sabbath and at the beginning of the first day of the week (this is significant) Mary meets Jesus in the garden and He tells her to not touch Him He is not yet ascended. Incidentally I don’t think that the God of truth’s first official act (it was important enough to be included in the annotated Holy Scripture wasn’t it?) after His resurrection was to tell a half truth. A few hours later He is hobnobbing with the decibels, entering closed rooms, being handled by Thomas. What changed? What changed was the wave sheaf offering.
After the end of the Sabbath, at night on the 1st day of the week, the Priests harvest enough grain to make the wave sheaf loafs. During the morning service the 1st of the 1st fruits of the harvest are waved by the priests before the alter in the temple. Simultaneously Jesus is presented in the temple in Heaven as the first of the first fruits of the resurrected dead. After He returns to earth He may then be touched.
As for the thief on the cross that his spirit returned to the one gave it, as is everyone’s, is uncontested. That he preceded the First Fruits of the dead is ludicrous. What, if anything Christ’s spirit did for the three days He was entombed is nowhere stated nor implied. IMO (not that you have said he did)
Thanks Ann, I signed up for the Newsletter, and I read the article “New Moon in the Hebrew Bible”. I like the site and I appreciate you sharing it with me.
Gabe,
The beginning of the fall feasts are just weeks away. It’s exciting that you are discovering this right now.
The new Moon of the seventh month is the first day of this month and is also the first feast in the fall feasts. In scripture its called Yom Teruah the day of the loud noise. In Yeshuah’s time it was also idiomatically referred to as the day that “no man knows the day or the hour” because you had to wait for the new moon to actually show itself and you had to be standing ready carefully watching for it and prepared to do what was commanded the minute you saw it. Blow the shofar!
That’s coming up in just a few short weeks. For me it’s the most exciting day of the year as we go out and wait for it’s appearing shofar in hand, anticipating His possible return.
I feel very blessed.
Most of this is COMPLETELY new to my wife, but when I was talking to her yesterday – she said something along the lines of “that’s just what we need, our kids need some good traditions”. I don’t want to overwhelm her, but so far, she has been encouraging and accepting beyond what I had hoped.
Thank-you all for sharing, and adding in a few specifics for what it means to be part of the tribe.
P.S. I love the “no man knows the day or the hour” tie-in. That’s exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to find
Gabe You’re welcome. Some people call the first day of the 7th month the Day of Trumpets or Day of The Blowing of Trumpets. Some think it is a NT tie in with the Coming of Christ in the Clouds. I do. 2nd Col:16-17 …a holy day, the the new moon, or the sabbath. Which are a shadow of things to come… Gods plan in a nut shell.
These are good healthy traditions to raise a family in.
Skip is not saying you have to believe him. God never said we have to believe him.
If you move around our country ( USA) you will find different ways of thinking. Farming communities as compared to large cities. They are all Americans but there is a difference in meaning of words and thought processes. Example – someone raised in the ghetto talks differently than a farmer from Georgia. As far as why the Hebrews were chosen, well it wasn’t my decision to make. Take that up with God.
I do know we all need to stop leaning on our own understanding and trust God.