A Small Correction?
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, ‘Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani?’ which is translated, ‘My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?’” Mark 15:34 NASB
Eloi – There’s just a small problem with this verse. It simply can’t be what Yeshua said. Before you go crazy with the implications of that statement, consider the evidence. First, read the same account in Matthew 27:46. Matthew writes, that Yeshua said, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” Notice that Mark reports the opening words were “Eloi, Eloi.” What’s the difference and why does it matter?
Here’s the clue. In both accounts, the bystanders interpret Yeshua’s cry as a call for Elijah. In Hebrew, the name “Elijah” is Eliyahu. The word “Eli” could be understood as either a call for Eliyahu with his “nickname,” or it could be the Hebrew opening of the 22nd Psalm, “Eli, Eli lama azavtani.” It is clear from the reaction of the crowd that they didn’t know which reference Yeshua meant. (We will deal with the difference between sabachthani and azavtani in a moment). Matthew and Mark both report this confusion. But if Yeshua actually said, “Eloi, Eloi” as Mark suggests, then it would not have been possible to be confused because Eloi is never a designation for Eliyahu, the prophet. Eloi is the Aramaic word for “My God,” but it is not a nickname for the prophet. When Mark reports that the people were confused, he gives no grounds for that confusion since there is no confusion if Yeshua spoke the Aramaic word.
Yeshua didn’t speak both sentences. The sentence as recorded in Matthew is the only one that provides a reason for the people’s confusion. Therefore, we can be assured that Yeshua spoke Hebrew, not Aramaic and that the sentence as recorded in Mark is not accurate. Somewhere along the line, either originally or later, Mark’s record of the incident was changed.
It’s bad enough to realize that the common myth that Aramaic was the language of Israel during the time of Yeshua is mistaken. It’s bad enough to realize that all those seminary classes and scholarly commentaries based on this mistaken mythology will have to be re-evaluated. Believe me, I have plenty of them. But now we must also deal with the undeniable fact that Mark’s account cannot be correct, even by Mark’s own explanation. There just isn’t any way around this. What does this mean for our commonly-held doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture? You will have to think about that – seriously.
Oh, and what about the rest of that sentence, the lama sabachthani part. The reason our current Hebrew text reads azavtani instead of sabachthani is that the current Hebrew text is based on the Masoretic text complied between 700 AD and 1000 AD, not the older Hebrew spoken in Yeshua’s day. It gets complicated, doesn’t it? Now you will have to answer the question, “Can I rely on this text?” for yourself instead of simply citing some doctrine that you probably have no idea how it came about or who proposed it.
Topical Index: Eloi, Eli, Eliyahu, Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34, Psalm 22:1 [E]
“What does this mean for our commonly-held doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture?”
I wish I could begin to comment on this TW, but my understanding of this particular “problem” is limited. I will simply insert this statement: Skip’s class on Biblical Hermenuetics has forever altered my ability to simply accept the traditional interpretations of Scripture and has whet my appetite for the truths found in the Hebraic worldview. 🙂 As for this TW, it looks as if it will be on the plate all week for me.
Shalom,
Jimmy
“The sentence as recorded in Matthew is the only one that provides a reason for the people’s confusion.”
Yet Matthew is adamant that what was meant was “My God.” Mark’s use of “eloi” eliminates the possible confusion of Matthew, confirming the meaning of whatever was said as “my God”, while still giving the historical event authenticity, recording the reactions of people at the event.
That Mark created his own “logic” problem in the recording of the historical event having used the unambiguous ‘eloi’ may not be so significant if it is the aim of the gospel writers to record the essence of the history of the Messiah rather than the minute detail of his history.
Ian, we have testimony from historical sources that Matthew’s gospel was originally written “in the Hebrew tongue, and each translated as best he could”. Why, then, if Matthew wrote in Hebrew, and Yeshua spoke in Hebrew, would any interpretation be necessary on Matthew’s part? In the Greek text of Matthew we have a Greek transliteration of the phase, followed by a translation. This smells to me like a translator’s parenthetical explanation, not what Matthew originally wrote.
I think it is the translator or a later redactor who added the explanation. I would be very surprised if it was in Matthew’s original autograph – it would have been completely unnecessary to write the Hebrew phrase, in Hebrew, and then explain it in Hebrew, would it not?
It is not surprising, then, to note that the explanatory phrase does not occur in the Shem Tov Hebrew text of Matthew. It does, however, appear in the Delitzch Hebrew gospels, but that is openly admitted to be a translation from the Greek text. Oddly enough, in that text it appears first in Matthew 27:46 in the same form as in Mark (i.e. using sabbacthani) but then the “translation” is given using the Matthean form azavtani. The absence of the explanation in Shem Tov in my view supports the idea that this is a later addition to the text.
Rodney
Is the Shem-Tov an actual reproduction of the original Mathew or an approximation? Isn’t the available version a reconstruction of several fragments?
Ian, I am not qualified to give a definitive answer to that. Some linguistic scholars believe that it has strong evidence pointing to its derivation from a Hebrew original rather than a translation. No-one that I’m aware of claims that it is a perfect copy of the actual original Hebrew Matthew, but it does not appear to be a translation from Aramaic (despite the Aramaic primacists’ claims) or Greek (even less likely). Since George Howard wrote his book in which he reproduced the Shem Tov text (for which I believe he had access to 9 manuscripts) several more manuscripts of Hebrew Matthew have been discovered, basically classified as I understand it into four groups. The last I heard there were something like 32 Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew that have now been found. I don’t know how many of these are translations from Aramaic or Greek and how many point to a Hebrew original – that I can’t answer. For me, though, the fact that Shem Tov specifically lacks the translator’s explanation whereas other manuscripts that are known to be translations from the Greek do contain it is fairly compelling evidence of a) different sources and b) that no explanation was likely necessary when Matthew wrote his gospel.
Take a close look at Nehemia Gordon’s work on this issue.
When the scholars disagree, what can the lay person do?
Tim Hegg on Nehemia Gordon and Matt 23:3
The Anti-Semite? I suspect all of his motives. I have heard first hand how he attacks and ridicules the rabbis and their authority handed down from Moses. He also takes upon himself the authority of the Sanhedrin to decide when the month starts (new moon). For these reasons I personally discourage anyone from learning from him.
I am not a theologian, nor am I totally unlearned. I realized quite some time ago that what I was fed in one denomination as the correct doctrine was very different from what I received somewhere else. I can usually discern error, and it makes me very uncomfortable. My understanding has been that the Scriptures are inerrant only in their original form, not in a translation. However, enough of the Truth comes through
most “good” translations that make the studying the Bible a necessity for any believer in Yeshua.
Are you saying, Skip, that the Bible is inaccurate even in the original Hebrew? and did I understand you to say in a previous TW that the NT in Greek is also a translation from the original Hebrew?
If we hold to the view that there are errors in the original text, then on what basis do we choose what to
believe and what not to believe? I have found that, when verses or life situations are beyond my understanding, it is my trust in God that gets me through; I cling to Him as the Truth, even though I
may not see clearly.
Emily,
I am in your court. This TW also raises questions in my mind saying…”OK, then which text, translation, transliteration or whatever do I believe…especially since I am not a Hebrew Scholar?”
So too am I to rest in the trust of Abba Father and His Ruach HaKadsh to lead and direct me in the continuing of relationship with Him.
I lean on my heart…not my mind.
Tim
PS: Sometimes after studying my mind hurts so much and my trust in man is so shaken I just run to Abba Father and just say hold me.
Amen also!
AMEN
This linguistic stuff is all beyond me, but a little Googling reveals others who deal with this topic and somehow (again, I have trouble following all the linguistics) find consistency in what the two authors were reporting.
If we believe in inerrancy, then our discovery of an apparent error suggests we may be missing something–we should try to find a way to reconcile the apparent error rather than declaring inerrancy as questionable (unless our goal is to plant and nurture uncertainty). I am all for revealing “traditions” of the Christian church for what are and for pointing out interpretation masquerading as translation. Calling into question the inerrancy of scripture in the original text is a different story.
http://www.torahclass.com/archived-articles/412-did-the-messiah-speak-aramaic-or-hebrew-part-2-by-eaknapp
http://www.douglashamp.com/eloi-eloi-lama-sabachthani/
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-contradictions-refuted.htm
As our Savior hung upon the cross- (did Christ really die for our sins?)- why did God “forsake Him?” Why did the Father turn His face away? Why could the thrice-holy God no longer look upon the Son with favor? Because my theologically confused Philistinian friends, ~ He became sin who knew no sin that we (the Gentiles and the Jews) might become His righteousness ~-2 Corinthians 5.21 (the very righteousness/right-relatedness of Christ!)
Did God looked upon the Son with favor? ~ This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased ~ Sound familiar? Oh? you weren’t there? Neither was I, so how do I know these things? Where did I “pick this up?” Where did I first hear this? A voice from Heaven saying, ~this is my beloved Son in whom I AM well pleased?~ Yes, I know- the Jews believe God is ONE and there is only ONE God..- it’s been a point of contention between Christians and Jews for millenia. – But not any more.
For Christ has torn down the veil of the Temple through the veil of His own flesh. There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek for “whosoever” shall call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved. Christ came to save (deliver if you prefer) “sinners” of whom Rabbi Sha’ul “claimed” to be chief. Move over Paul, is there room at the “bottom” for me? Hallelujah friends! “Whosoever will” may come. Yes, incredibly it is our choice- whether or not to believe. My advice? “Do it.” ~ Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and you will be saved ~ Not one ever has been turned away, but a word of warning.. “sinners only are welcome here..” – and where is “here?”- (I’m so glad you asked…) It is at the foot of the cross.
~ Father, forgive them for they know not what they do..~ Friends, again.. “we” is “they..”. I am the one for whom Christ died. That Man died for me. Of this I am certain, “Jesus died my soul to save..” – This I know, this I know.. “Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean..” . هل تفهم لي الآن разбирате ли ме сега? begrijpt u mij nu? 당신은 지금 날 이해? Yes, the sins of the world- Jew and Gentile, for ~ “all” have sinned..~ (myself most assuredly included..)
Bad news.. “all have sinned.” We are a motley bunch- “sinners all.” More bad news..- sin separates. ~ ~ But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear ~ (Isaiah 59.2) Houston, we (all) have a problem..- that problem, (simply put- I know..) is sin.
~ “Whosoever” (sounds like this might be a very “universal” word to me,- does this include the Jew and the Gentile?) commits sin transgresses also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law ~ But whoever commits sin commits evil, for sin is entirely evil ~ There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to Him ~ (Proverbs 6.16)
Yes, we could “go on” about sin,- but why? Why don’t we remember the words of the Perfect Lamb of God who said to the “accusers”- the ones ready to throw stones- “Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone..” Not a single rock was tossed on that day.. I’m puttin’ my rock down too..- for I know something about myself- and it ain’t pretty.. for you see, I too am a sinner. I know it’s hard for some to believe, but I am not perfect. (Such a difficult confession to make, too!)
Just the facts, (ma’am). I have sinned. This much has been firmly established and for sure.. “facts are stubborn things..”- (I hope I don’t lose any friends), but I am “the” sinner.. (move over Paul..)
“All” have sinned is more than an indictment- it is a stubborn fact that will not go away on its own..What to do about sin? Where do we go from here? (I’m glad you asked, for I know a “hiding place.”)
Let’s go together to the cross of the Chosen ONE, the Messiah of Israel, and Savior of the nations. His Name is Wonderful-Counselor-Mighty God. El Elyon. It has been written for whosoever will- “Look unto me and be saved (delivered if you prefer) all the ends of the earth..” Uhh… look unto who? Whose very Name is “Salvation?” Whose very Name is “Deliverer?” Who came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel? (Matthew 15.24) ~ Remember that Christ came as a Servant to the Jews to show that God is true to the promises He made to their ancestors ~ (Romans 15.8)
A Servant? The promised Messiah is a Servant? ~ For even The son of man came not to be served, but to serve and give His life a ransom in the place of the many ~ (Mark 10.45) This humble itinerate Prophet/Carpenter from the nowhere town of Nazareth a Conquering King? And furthermore He washed the filthy feet of His own disciples! (John 13.4,5)
And He humbled Himself further still- even unto death- a death by crucifixion on a criminal’s cross- the cross of Calvary. The Jews require a sign, (the scriptures say..) – what if, a sign were nailed above His thorn-crowned head, to read (in three known languages of the day)- “This is Jesus, King of the Jews”- would they then believe that this is the Christ, the Chosen ONE of Israel? The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?
And then there is that veil. The veil that was ripped from top to bottom. The veil to the entrance of a very holy and sacred place- a place that was entered only once per year and that only by the high priest. Why was that veil torn in two? (I think we know Who did it..), but why?
Could it be ~ through Him we “both” (Jew and Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father? ~ (Ephesians 2.18) ~ For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and we were all given the one Spirit to drink ~ (1 Corinthians 12:13) Sure are a bunch of “ones” goin’ on in this verse- it’s almost as if we are being ~ reconciled to Him through the death of the Son ~ and ~ In Him and through faith in Him we may (all) approach God with freedom and confidence ~ (Ephesians 3.12)
Yes, “why” is a very good question to ask.. Why did The Messiah die? Was this an “afterthought?” Did God say “oops?” Does God ever make a mistake? Even one? Or does He ~do all things well? ~ There was a Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.. (Revelation 13.8) Is this the same Lamb who was pierced for our transgressions, who was bruised for our iniquities? ~ When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners ~ (Romans 5.6) And speaking of “just at the right time”- isn’t it wonderful to know Christ was crucified during Passover? How very Jewish! It’s almost as though God’s timing is perfect.
~ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other Name under heaven given to men by which we (all) must be saved ~ (Acts 4.12). Nicodemus (whose name in Hebrew translates “superior”) must have been a man of sterling integrity and character and deep learning. He was after all.. ~ a ruler of the Jews ~ A polished and pedigreed man, no doubt, highly esteemed and respected in his community. And yet Yeshua said unto this man of high moral standing- ~ you (also) must be born from above…~ Why would this be true of Nicodemus? Why did he need to be “saved?” Was he also a sinner, needing to be “saved by grace”? This man, without a doubt, knew and practiced Torah living. He was a rule-keeper to the max, a true “law-abiding” citizen, (I would never question the moral integrity of this man) and yet.. Yeshua said to this “superior” one- you (also) must be born from above.
Born once- die twice, are you “twice-born?” Do you know the regenerative, restorative, renewing power of the God’s Holy Breath, the Ruach HaKodesh? Does God’s Spirit bear witnes with your spirit- “I belong to Him?” Are you able to say (with blessed assurance) “I am His and He is mine?”
If so,- wonderful, rejoice and be glad. If not- why not?
In the end, there are only two types of people and it not (not) Jew or Gentile.. (neither is it male or female). It is either “saints” or “aints.” (ain’t no such word as ain’t is there?) Either we are “in Christ” or not. And (as the scriptures state) ~ if “any man” be “in Christ..”. Are you one of the “in” crowd? In blood-covenant union with Messiah HaMashiach? It is not “who” you are (Mr. Nicodemus sir..) it is “Whose” you are.. Do you belong to Him and do you know it?- If not, why not?
His eternal invitation remains- ~ Come unto Me..~ (Matthew 11.28)
How deep the Father’s love for us
how vast beyond all measure..
~ For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And He has given unto us this wonderful message of reconciliation ~ 2 Corinthians 5.19
Reconciliation. A ten-cent word at least. Would “restored relationships” be more easily understood? SomeOne has “bridged the gap” between holy God and sinful humanity. ~ God will provide Himself the Lamb ~ (Genesis 22.8). And, in the fulness of time.. two-thousand plus years ago, on a hill called Mt. Calvary, He did. A sinless, spotless, saving Lamb was slain.
Does His-story end here? lol! no. no. and no. Three days later..the stone sealing Him in was rolled away. And..?
Carl, GOD has truly blessed you in being able to express quite clearly HIS PERSON and love in holiness or holiness in love for HIS PEOPLE.. MAY THE LORD CONTINUE TO BLESS YOU that you may continue to share the BREAD OF LIFE..
This TW calls for a homey story.
A centipede was happy until one day, a toad decided to have somen fun with him said,
‘Tell me, if you can, which leg goes after which?’
This question so strained his mind until he found himself laying about, distracted in a ditch, doing nothing except considering how to run.
I think there are a good many toads in the world, and sometimes, not in fun at all, but very seriously, they manage “to strain our minds to such a pitch”, that instead of going on in simplicity we may easily find ourselves distracted in a ditch, not running, but only considering how to run.
Heb. 12: 1 “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
I believe this comment will need a disclaimer: I’m not saying Skip is a toad, I’m saying we may be easily confused like the centipede.
As for myself, I’ll keep my eyes on Jesus and trust. I do not believe He will never leave me/us. I’m convinced — not to confusion or anything else.
@ DOROTHY:
NEW GROUND is always intimidating for each of us. I must admit that a lot of what is said by Skip goes WAY OVER MY HEAD………………..but I also know that I am groaning and growing and some day I will be able to receive what he is giving us to feed upon. It is SO good to be able to say that because the people of the world cannot. Thank you LORD JESUS..
I have studied the Torah for a quite a while now and I have stopped quoting from the Brit for some time because of these mistranslations…I find everything that I need in the Tanak. And I like what Skip says, ” when Yeshua comes we will be able to hear it from his own mouth”. Really we are living in with a society that doesn’t not want to hear G-d’s Voice…they would instead listen to a translation and look what it has come to….
I agree, everything, even the secret things, that can be found in the NT are in the Torah.
“It is the glory of G-d to conceal a thing but the honor of kings to search out a matter”
Amein! What is revealed belongs to us, what is hiddden belongs to YHWH-Deut 29:29
This kind of scholarship is most important when there are two verses which SEEM to contradict each other.
This is not a nerdy distraction, it is part of our striving to know Yeshua better — instead of building or worshiping an idol built by our fathers.
I understand the slippery-slope concerns, but I think we can BOTH appreciate the awesome preservation of scripture, and at the same time investigate these kinds of issues. The problem arrives in apologetics, or more specifically with compulsory intellectual conversion — our exegetic formulas will be muddied, and everyone can be apt to say, “Oh, so the scriptures that DON’T support you are ‘mistranslated/changed’ — but the ones that DO support you are fine.” But is a nice-n-tidy exegetical formula SUPPOSED to be a primary tool for convincing people to join The Way?!
Psalm 22 as Prophecy
http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/prophecy/Crucifixion/Ps22.html
another interesting article concerning crucifixion and Psalm 22.
Psalm 22 begins with such a low tone, but ends in exultant victory- Would it have been more effective for our Savior to say- “I’ll be back?”
“Can I rely on this text?”
Hmmm Matt and are Mark different?
Makes me think of the song by Kris Kristofferson called The Pilgrim
He’s a walking contradiction
Partly truth and partly fiction
The Prophet Elijah
The most beloved prophet of all; with whom the future redemption of Israel through Messiah is closely linked; who frequently comes down to earth to help Jews in distress or reveal some secrets of the divine Torah to our great scholars; who is present at the covenant with G-d entered into by the Jewish child at the age of eight days; who visits us at the ‘Seder’ – this is our prophet Elijah
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111833/jewish/The-Prophet-Elijah.htm
Maybe the question should be why would some think He was calling the Prophet Elijah?
I wonder how the older Hebrew of Psalm 22 reads in the Dead Sea scrolls? Also , consider that in Yeshua’s condition it his enunciation may not have been perfect, alfter all, it is hard enough just to breathe when you are being crucified…