Cross and Altar Commentary
In the last few days we have entertained a lively debate over the interpretation of the phrase “before the foundation of the world.” This has led us to reconsider some long-held assumptions about the death of Yeshua on the cross. I can tell from the blog site that many have struggled to express their beliefs and articulate the justification for those beliefs. WE HAVE NOT RESOLVED THINGS, but that’s perfectly OK. Many issues that arise from careful consideration of the text within the Hebraic worldview challenge our usual theological assumptions. This is good, even if we don’t change a thing about what we believe. We are here to discuss, to stretch, to challenge each other in order to come to a more complete understanding of God’s message to us. No one doubts the necessity of the cross nor the power of forgiveness nor the hand of God in all that occurred. The only thing we seek is to UNDERSTAND how it all fits together.
Thank you all for the opportunity to help ME work through this.
Skip
Given all the discussion on the comparison between the cross and the alter, my question is simply this: where are all the ” alter” symbols for the Jews? Why don’t we see Jews wearing a symbolic alter around their necks, depicting it upon their books, art work, atop their synagogues like we Christians do with the cross?
Having been raised a Catholic I was never far from a cross; in the church, on the church, in the offertory vessels and instruments, in the artwork, in the stained glass windows depicting the 14 stations of the cross, but also in every catholic classroom, on our rosary beads, on the pews and adorning the Missalettes and hymnals in those pews. Then there were crosses in my home (only 4 or 5 as we were only nominal parishioners), the homes of friends, in the car, around the necks of both clergy and laity (seemed to me as a child the more devoted you were the larger the cross you wore-perhaps that is why as a teenager I was never intimated by the tiny gold crosses worn by good Catholic girls). The Cross dominated the landscape and psyche of my world. And when later in life I was born again-this time as a Protestant- there were still plenty of crosses to make me feel right at home. The main difference seemed to be that while the Catholic crosses often still had Jesus on the cross and the Protestants never did. Made sense to me given the different emphasis of the two religions; the risen Christ versus the suffering Christ. Plus certain sects of my new found faith had a need to make their crosses bigger, larger, more prominent to either advertise or perhaps warn all the infidels of their just eternal punishment (as if each would be crucified in hell for an indeterminate period of time, depending on their sins, all the way up to eternity on a wooden cross for the most evil of men like Hitler, the popes and those Jews responsible for Christ’s death).
I won’t go into all the histrionics, hysteria and heresies that accompany the conversations around the Blood; maybe another time, but it seems the Catholics have nothing over the Protestants when it comes to “magical thinking” regarding the blood, its place, purpose, use and power. Looking forward to parts 3 and beyond.
I agree about the “magical” elements in both forms of Christianity. As for the lack of representation of the altar, it’s worth noting that Jewish faith is occupied with acts of obedience and charity toward others and alignment with the Torah of God. If you look for those “symbols” you will find them everywhere – as LIVED REALITY, not as artifacts. And you will find respect and honoring of the Torah rather than the altar because the altar is included in God’s instructions. BTW, some elements of Judaism believe that the Torah pre-existed creation as well.
Yes, and 1 Enoch and 4th Ezra are full of pre-existing elements including Father/Son Messiah relationship, and this played heavily into the first century expectations for their Messiah.
BTW — as a child looking at the “magical elements of Christianity, I always looked at people glorifying the cross and making “relics” and jewelry of it rather than signifying the life after the cross, and wondered: If I got run over by a car, would my family start wearing little gold cars around their necks? We may have become hardened to these “magical” traditions, but children take a little longer to do that.
Skip, I like the stretching and the wrestling and the struggling. I enjoy it. In the end, you know what?GOD always wins. HIS ways are past finding out. I trust that after all the fighting, he’ll bless me with a new name, a new understanding – even if my hip is out of joint and I have to continue the journey with a limp – a constant reminder that I MUST rely on HIM. Blessings to you and all.
Thanks for letting us come along on the journey with you, Skip. 🙂
That didn’t read correctly – split infinitve. :-(. What I meant was, “Thanks for letting us come along with you on the journey, Skip”. (There, I feel better now.) :-).
AMEN Rodney..as up and down or bewildering ..all new ground is like that in the Family of FAITH
Again, thank you for this blog site as well as your writings. I have been in too many churches where open discussion and seeking for the Truth was discouraged because it did not fit in the denominational theology, whatever that happened to be. The only other time I really experienced this was when I was first introduced to Yeshua, and I have sorely missed it!
Amen Emily! That is why I am meeting with like minded mavericks in one member’s home where lively discussions and study are the norm, and not sitting in a church with a funnel in my ear! 🙂
From shadow to substance..- that is the story of the cross. Foreshadowed in the O.T., fulfilled in the New. This (cross) is the new covenant in My blood- drink ye all of it. The cross is absolutely crucial and central to life itself, “both” here in the “nasty now and now” and later in the “sweet by and by.”. Magical? No. Crucial? Yes. It is the altar, the meeting place between man, the sinner, and God Who is holy.
I ‘spose we had ought to go ahead and explore further via the famous five.. “Who, what, where, when and why..
Shall we? Fasten your pew belts.. – here we go..- (Let me know if I say or infer anything not according to the Word of God,- the basis for all belief.
Who? – Who was crucified?
What? What was the purpose of this crucifixion? Was it “purposeful” or was it some random event in history?
Where? Where did this take place? and is there any significance even in the location? Was this foretold years before it happened?
(and now the “biggie”.) Why? Because God So loved the world… He gave (the greatest Gift of all) His only begotten Son (the Son of promise). that “whosoever” (a very inclusive, and yet exclusive word- for there are those who “will” and those who “won’t!) believe/trust “in Him” (how critical are these two!- “in Christ!” shall never perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3.16)
The question I would love to pose to all my fellow “followers of the Way” is this: Is “eternal life” a quantity or a quality? (yes..- this is a “trick” question!) lol!
Am I a soldier of the cross,
A follower of the Lamb,
And shall I fear to own His cause,
Or blush to speak His Name?
Must I be carried to the skies
On flowery beds of ease,
While others fought to win the prize,
And sailed through bloody seas?
Are there no foes for me to face?
Must I not stem the flood?
Is this vile world a friend to grace,
To help me on to God?
Sure I must fight if I would reign;
Increase my courage, LORD.
I’ll bear the toil, endure the pain,
Supported by Thy Word.
Thy saints in all this glorious war
Shall conquer, though they die;
They see the triumph from afar,
By faith’s discerning eye.
When that illustrious day shall rise,
And all Thy armies shine
In robes of victory through the skies,
The glory shall be Thine.
(Isaac Watts 1724)
But Carl, the CROSS is not foreshadowed in the Tanakh. What is foreshadowed is the sacrifice for the forgiveness of intentional sin. The CROSS is not the new covenant in my blood. That is a reference to an action within the context of the Passover meal. The CROSS as a symbol of self-sacrifice is crucial to understanding the severity of the obligation, but it is not the crux of life in the “bye and bye” (which, by the way, imports a Platonic dualism not found in Scripture). The CROSS is not the altar nor is it the meeting place between men and God, unless you are willing to throw away all the teaching of the Tanakh and substitute this form of torture for the place God designated as the “drawing near.” While I appreciate your devotion, and know that it is very real, you insist on the centrality of the cross without asking if it is in alignment with the understanding of a sin sacrifice. Would any Jew in the first century share your fixation on this torture instrument? Would they see it as God’s blood altar? I doubt it. That means that during the time of this event, no Jew would have understood it as the representation that later Christianity made out of it. HOw do you explain this?