Further Considerations about Time and the Cross

One of the difficulties believers face understanding the place of the cross in Christian theology is directly related to a prior commitment (usually without reflective consideration) to the philosophical concept of the Greek idea of time.  Examination of this assumption demonstrates that it is the philosophical concept itself that produces confusion about the role of the cross, and when this assumption is unveiled, the Hebraic idea of temporal passage makes the role of the cross far more intelligible.

Let’s start with the Greek idea of time.  In Greek philosophy, time is conceived as if it were like a river.  The present moment is determined by the position of the observer on the riverbank.  The contents of the river downstream is the equivalent of the past while contents upstream is equated to the future.  All fictional accounts of time travel depend on this model since time travel assumes that the position of the riverbank observer is independent of the actual content and flow of the stream itself.  In the Greek model, all temporal events are already fixed in the “river of time,” just as all the contents floating on a river are already in place in the water.  The only difference between those events in the past and the “yet-to-occur” events in the future is the relative position of the riverbank observer.  Therefore, if it were possible for someone to move upstream, that person would actually observe events that have yet to occur from the perspective of a person at a different point downstream.  The observer would experience events once apprehended to be in the future as though they were now “present” to the observer.

Several major implications result from this model of temporal passage.  First, the observer remains effectively “outside” the actual sequence of fixed events in the river.  In other words, the content of the river is already determined.  The only variable is the position of the hypothetical observer.  While human beings are not capable of voluntary movement along the riverbank, the possibility of such movement is incorporated into this model.  Therefore, the model implies that a being capable of movement along the river bank would be able to traverse the human boundaries of temporal position.  For example, a divine being might not be limited to a single fixed position of the riverbank and therefore would be capable of experiencing upstream events “before” they become known and experienced by those observers who are stationary.  This also implies that such a being could communicate information about these future fixed events to a stationary observer so that the observer would “know” the reality of these events prior to their observable reality from the fixed position on the riverbank.  This is essentially the view of a prophetic revelation in Greek thinking.  The prophet, either through some divine communication or some extra-human ability to “see” the future stream of events, knows in advance of the arrival of the events at our fixed position what those events are because the event already exist in the upstream river of time.

Secondly, the Greek model implies that some being could exist in a realm “outside” the parameters of the river and its relationships to observers.  With this model in mind, theologians who accept the Greek idea speak of God as “outside of time.”  God’s relative position to the entire length of the river means the He is able to “see” the whole flow of the river at once, as if (suggests Aquinas) He were positioned on a high mountain overlooking the river from its source to its mouth.  From this perspective, God knows all the fixed events in the river in a single “eternal” moment.  Theologians who accept this Greek model speak as though God exists in a ex-temporal realm called “eternity,” where “eternity” does not mean the endless succession of temporal events into the past and the future but rather a state that exists apart from and outside of any prescribed relationship to the entire temporal flow.  One of the consequences of this assumption has a direct bearing on the doctrine of omniscience.  Omniscience is a attribute of God because God exists in this extemporal realm and is therefore capable of “seeing” all events at once.  Because God “sees” everything in the river of time, He knows in advance of our position everything that will happen (from our perspective).  He is all-knowing precisely because He does not share our limited observer point of view.  And since He sees all the content of the river in one eternal moment, He can never be wrong about any description of these events no matter when (in relation to us) He chooses to reveal them.  In other words, in this view what God knows about the content of the river is certain because it is already fixed in time.

A direct consequence of this model is the challenge to any experiential concept of free will.  The river model assumes that all events already exist in the river.  The only thing that makes some events future events as opposed to past of present events is the relative position of the observer.  As the river flows in front of the fixed position of the observer, events that at one time were unknown to the observer because they existed in the river “upstream” become known to the observer because they now pass before his fixed position on the riverbank.  The critical assumption is this:  the events existed as actual occurrences prior to the particular observer’s awareness.  This means that there are really no “future” events yet to be determined.  The description of these events as “future” depends only on the relative position of the observer.  All events equally exist.  It is only their awareness to the observer that changes.  This implies that every choice and every consequence already exists as an actual reality in the flow of time.  These choices only appear to be the exercise of selecting various options, but since the actual decisions already exist in the river, only those options that already exist can actually be chosen.  In other words, while we experience the feeling of choosing freely, in reality we are only exercising those outcomes that are already fixed in the upstream river.  Since one cannot undo the “future” actual events, free choice is merely a human delusion.

Obviously, this logical consequence of the Greek model causes serious repercussions for human beings, and a great deal of philosophical and theological gymnastics attempts to find a solution compatible with the universal experience of free choice among human beings in spite of the logical denial of that reality.  For example, Augustine wrestled with this consequence, suggesting that we what “choose” are actually the already existing “free choices” in the future.  But Augustine’s argument, like so many others, fails to resolve the logical dilemma.  A discussion of the success of failure of these attempts is beyond the scope of this investigation.  Nevertheless, one particularly knotty problem emerges for exegesis; a problem that we will try to unravel.

Scripture states that the Messiah fulfilled the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins on the heavenly altar “before the foundation of the world.”  But the historical event of the cross, an event that Christianity designates as the point at which human sins were forgiven, did not occur prior to the foundation of the world.  Therefore, it seems as if the claim that the forgiveness of sins was accomplished on the heavenly altar at a time prior to creation is in conflict with the historical reality of the cross.  And in the Greek model, this is patently true.  And event cannot occur twice.  Either the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin occurred prior to creation or it occurred at the cross, but not both!  If the Greek model is correct, the linear extension of time prevents any unique action from occurring more than once in the river.  As the Greek philosophers say, “No man steps into the same river twice.”

We might resolve this problem by suggesting that the sacrifice on the heavenly altar is merely symbolic; that the true sacrifice occurs on the cross.  But the author of Hebrews doesn’t seem to portray the heavenly sacrifice as a symbol or an intention.  He claims that such a sacrifice actually took place as a real event prior to the foundation of the world.  We cannot assert that the death of Yeshua on the cross was merely symbolic since it occupies a crucial place in Christian thought, but it seems as if we cannot assert that the heavenly sacrifice is anything less than real as well.  To complicate the matter, the death on the cross does not fit the requirements of a sacrifice for intentional sin.  That raises the question, “What is the relationship between the event of the crucifixion and the sacrifice in heaven?”

Perhaps we can answer this question and resolve the apparent dilemma when we understand the Hebraic model of temporal passage.  In the Hebrew model, time is not linear.  The temporal realm is a series of dependent circles.  Like the rotation of a wheel, temporal events can reoccur, albeit in slightly altered form.  But unlike other Eastern views of time, the Hebraic wheel is also moving, not merely spinning.  So temporal passage has a direction as well as a rotation.  Therefore, while the circle can repeat itself in patterns, the actual events that comprise the repetition are individually unique.  If we think of the progression of Hebraic temporal experience, we can conceive of a series of turns of the wheel as it travels along a road viewed from time-lapse photography.  We would see the wheel turning around and around leaving images of loops.  Each loop contains some overlapping with other loops before and after the completion of a cycle while the entire progress of the rotating loops of the wheel moves toward some goal.  Where these loops overlap, a particular event might in fact actually repeat itself, even if it is modified by its altered relative position to the observer, that is, by the progress of the wheel in some direction.

This view of time actually portrays a feature of space-time relativity.  Suppose you observe a man bouncing a ball up and down in a railroad car.  If you are traveling at the same speed as the car while you observe this event, the ball will appear to travel straight down and return straight up.  But if the one bouncing the ball is traveling in a railroad car at a different rate of speed relative to your observation point, the ball will appear to travel at an angle relative to your movement.  In other words, the same phenomenon will appear as two different events depending on the relative relationship of the observer to the event.  Now let’s apply this insight to the exegesis of Scripture.

Suppose that the event of the sacrifice on the heavenly altar and the death on the cross are actually the same event repeated in pattern but observed as uniquely different relative to the human frame of reference.  That means that the sacrifice in heaven is the occurrence of the forgiveness of sin as Scripture says and it is also manifest in the death on the cross as human history records the event.  The forgiveness of sin (the pattern of God’s redemptive action) is both the completion of the sacrifice before the foundation of the world and the manifestation of that sacrificial pattern in the death on the cross.  One cannot exist without the other.  Neither is sufficient to explain the full reality.  And both occur at the same time from the perspective of a divine observer.  The death on the cross is not observed as a sacrifice.  It does not meet the requirements of a sacrifice.  Nevertheless, a divine observer sees that this death is intimately tied to the sacrifice in heaven, and the divine observer (who does not share the same frame of reference that we do) communicates this information to us.  We need both elements to understand the event.

What does this imply about the choice Yeshua makes to accomplish the fulfillment of the sacrifice in heaven as it is manifested in the death on the cross?  It means that at the moment He chooses to fulfill the repeated pattern, other alternative universes were possible, alternative universes that, had they been chosen, would have rewritten the past and alterable all prior rotations of the circle.  What is at stake in not simply the redemption of human beings.  What is at stake is the continuation of the possible world that God envisioned when the first instance of the pattern of the sacrifice was fulfilled.  If Yeshua decides otherwise, the universe as we know it would have been altered, rewritten from the beginning.  What is at stake in the Garden is not simply the stake of the cross.  It is the entire existing universe!

What is accomplished (the words of Yeshua on the cross) is the fulfillment of the pattern set in motion before the foundation of the world, the guarantee that the world as God envisioned it at creation is now established and cannot be overturned or reversed.

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Luis R. Santos

Time & mind bending!

Tanya

Is the axis horizontal or vertical? Does the axes move in a linear or circular pattern?

John Adam

It’s cycloidal (but possibly with loops: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloid)!

Michael

“It is an example of a roulette, a curve generated by a curve rolling on another curve.”

Hi John,

Your cycloid is very helpful to me

The concepts are bit complicated and I get confused

To see it, I need to keep it simple 🙂

John Adam

Understood, Michael! 🙂

Pam

Good stuff Skip,

Your book (God, Time, and the Limits of Omniscience: A Critical Study of Doctrinal Development) was not an easy read. It took me months get through. And I’m still examining your summary conclusions.

However it was worth the read for me. I’ve known for years that the “church fathers” blended their Greek thinking with the bible morphing it into something non-biblical and pagan.

But I knew just a little more than nothing of of Greek philosophy itself and how the amalgamation of those different philosophies, over-layed with a thin veneer of biblical principles, shaped the development of christian theology and therefore, how I still view God.

His timing is perfect.

Jill

Wow! That will keep my mind occupied all day (and probably for the rest of my life)

Bud Touvell

“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” The blood shed, as the Maschiach suffered was in fulfillment of prophecy. Isaiah Chapter 53, provides very expicit, and significant meaning to those events. A question comes to mind, where is the DNA provided by Miriam, “before the foundation of the world.”

Lois Filipski

Very interesting and challenging message.
My first thought is that the cyclical model is like nature, like my garden. Seeds sacrificing to produce fruit, then more seeds in the fruit that sacrifice. John12:24 And as each seed dies in the ground, God gives it life, heaven and earth acting together.
The linear model is like man apart from farming, outside the humble, cyclical process of self-sacrificing seeds being planted. Now he is an observer, he doesn’t serve nature, nature serves him as an independent consumer. He doesn’t identify with the dying seed anymore. Weakness, suffering, darkness, death of self, they’re not the foretaste of life for him.
I’m probably confused, but these are my thoughts.

Lois Filipski

Thanks for answering my comment. I am in over my head, but here are my thoughts.
You asked:
“How does this difference affect our view of faith?”
A few things come to my mind.
The first word that comes to my mind is responsible. As one within the cycles, with free will, I am an influence by my choices of self denial or self indulgence.
The second thing I think of is faith has value, richness and seriousness. An observer doesn’t affect outcomes and is quite protected. At least it seems so, but the participant must be prayerful, aware and responsive. I have value and purpose in the world as I am in tune with God and His ways.
And I am now, not in the stands, but in the game. I’m not watching TV, I’m in the story and it is all leading somewhere, even though it may seem repetitious In fact the repetitions help me understand life and take me to the place where God will be glorified.
Also, this verse comes to me.
Mt 10:32 “Whoever acknowledges me before men, f I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
The cross on earth – the sacrifice in heaven.
Acknowledge Him here – He acknowledges you in heaven
Help the poor – you give to Him Mt.25:45

Heaven echoes and life becomes holy.

Dorothy

Several times you have said: “the death on the cross does not fit the requirements of a sacrifice for intentional sin.”

When is the last time you saw a real live little lamb? Just today I saw one. Sweet baby lamb, beautiful, even perfect as far as I can tell, and the thought that in the days before Jesus came, — soft, tender, innocent, curious about life, eyes looking everywhere, happy to be cuddled in arms he trusts to hold him — little ones like this, the best of the flock — were chosen and taken to the priests, it throat slit and its blood poured out. So very many were slaughtered. God, whose eye is on the sparrow, watched them all, every time. It causes me to cry. It cost SO MUCH to cover sin!

Then I remember [read it so many times it seems to me I was there and saw it myself] when John the Baptist saw Jesus coming to the river he said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (The Father’s best, sent for us because He loves us, and He sent Him to die so we can live).
He met the requirements!!!

About time:

Suppose from an observatory in Hawaii, a man saw a star explode, –the star being many light years away from earth. Which is true: that the star exploded now when it is seen, or did it explode many light years ago? Or both? Can both be true?

I do not have Greek thinking of time as a river. But I want to say God is HUGE on order!

“And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.” Isa. 44: 7

“And who, as I” — This portion of vs. contains an argument to prove that He is God. He appeals to the fact that He alone can predict future events, and certainly declare the order, and the time in which they will come to pass (see Isa. 41:21-23; Isa. 44:9-10).

And set it in order – Arrange it; secure the proper succession and place (see Isa. 41:22). This denotes properly “to place in a row; set in order; arrange.” It is of the same signification as is applied to placing the wood upon the altar in a proper manner (Gen. 22:9); or to placing the showbread in proper order on the table (Lev. 24:8); and especially to setting an army in battle array (1 Sam. 17:2.)
Here it means that God would arrange the events in a proper order – as an army is arrayed for battle. There should be no improper sequences, chance, confusion, or hap-hazardness. The events which take place under his government, occur in proper order and time, and so as best to serve His plans.

How would you say time affects faith, that calls things that are not as if they are?

Ivan

Skip I have a question.

I do not have a good knowledge of Greek so I would like your view on this. It has been stated over and over in these discussions and posts that the lamb was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world. In my study it seems that the word (APO) in Rev 13:8 should be translated as FROM or SINCE. Ive noticed different translations tanslate this word differently and would like to know which one in your opinion is the most acurate to the Greek text?

It seems this single word is what the whole idea rests on and is crutial to the discussion.

BEFORE the foundations of the world or FROM the foundations of the world could make a big difference in the way this verse is to be understood in my opinion.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Ivan

So I understand the word APO a little better now Skip but Im still not getting one thing. Be patient with me 🙂

I dont get how we can say the words (Before) and (Since) can be used to describe the same temporal location. For example, If I say I made diner (before) you came home we clearly understand that its before you came home.
But if I say I made diner (since) you came home wouldnt we understand this as when you got home it was not made, but after you came until now it was made sometime in between.

Does this make sense? It seems to me like there is a big difference between the temporal when of these two words. If I am not getting something right here please help me understand.

Im asking all this becuse I dont wont to start making theological statements until I understand the plain meaning of the text first. I agree with you in your point that the cross was not the place the sacrifice for sin happened. But that the ritual needed to be done in Heaven at an Altar in the proper way is clear I think. But it seems like the temporal location of this event is not crutial to be before the foundation but could have been after at some time.

With that said I have another question. If He was slain before the foundation why was He slain? There is no need for a sin offering until there was sin right? When the earth was formed there was no sin. When the animals were formed there was no sin. It was only after Adam that sin came. Therefore there was no need for the sacrifice until after the fall. If time is not like a river (which I dont think it is) and God cannot know the future freewill choices of man beacuse they havent happened yet, What if Adam and Eve did not sin but controled their Yetser Hara? Wouldnt the Lamb have died in vain?

These are some of the things I have been pondering. Your Todays Words always get me to thinking.

Ivan

That example you gave was very good. I understand now how the word “since” can show that what ever two events one is talking about could have happend at the same time.

But by the example you gave I still dont get the difference of “before” and “since”. If I change the word since in your example with before and say, “The earth existed before the formation of the solar system” there is clearly a different understanding to this. It seems like there still is a difference with “before” and “since” and they cannot be taken to mean the same thing. I dont know though maybe there is a difference in the way this word is taken in Greek, but it seems like in English there is a big difference. Is there?

It just seems like (apo) is not a very good word to use if your trying to make the point that something happened “before” something else. Especially when he had the word (pro) wich is used in the exact same phrase several times is the Bible and means clearly “before” the foundation”.

At this point Im still undesided as to when this event happened based on the Greek. It seems like with apo it has to be either at the same time as the foundation or some time after but not before. But I dont think it changes anything and is not really a big deal though in either case. Just trying to look at the text more criticaly and not just believe what others translate without taking a crack at it myself 🙂

As to your reply on “the necessity of a sin sacrifice before there was sin in the world”
I just have to say well done! I will be pondering this for some time. Thanks!

Ian Hodge

Skip, this topic is too BIG to handle in one post. 🙂 When are you going to write another book on the topic? 🙂

“the Greek model implies that some being could exist in a realm “outside” the parameters of the river and its relationships to observers. With this model in mind, theologians who accept the Greek idea speak of God as “outside of time.”

“A direct consequence of this model is the challenge to any experiential concept of free will.”

It seems the there are several issues tied into this topic that need development. The first is the metaphysical question. Is there an uncreated being and are there created beings? If the answer is yes, then we have a rejection of the Greeks and the Eastern religions that all reality is one. It also implies that at some point (in time and space) created reality did not exist.

But this metaphysical distinction between uncreated and created being, raises a question: in what way is the created being unlike the uncreated being? If created human being is identical to uncreated being, then man truly is divine, with all the attributes of YHVH firmly tucked into his being. And that would require that man’s “free will” be identical to YHVH’s free will.

Now in terms of YHVH, we ask the question can YHVH sin? If he cannot sin, then YHVH’s “free will” is certainly not like man’s “free will”. Why cannot YHVH sin? Because, the “definition” of YHVH is that he is the God of all goodness, etc. Whatever he does is right – righteousness. To suggest that man’s “free will” is the same is YHVH’s is to thus eliminate sin from man’s possible choices.

It is this metaphysical differentiation that Augustine and others have used to argue their case about free will, which is no more than this: man’s free will cannot be identical to YHVH’s free will. Does this mean that man does not have a “free will”? No, man has the “free will” of the created being, not the uncreated being. Any confusion of the two either makes YHVH human or it makes humans divine.

For man, creation – and therefore time – has always been the area of potentiality for him. It is in time he must “have dominion.” The Fall through Adam and the Restoration through the new Adam only reinforce the idea that when we pray “they kingdom come” it is not here yet, and we are to work for its full realization – which will not be complete until the consummation of the ages. Since this is not “now” for us, it is still yet to be, and therefore for us a “future” event. In this, history is linear – progression towards – not yet arrived. There are future events still to occur.

But if time is the area of potentiality for man, is it also the area of potentiality for YHVH? In other words, has YHVH yet to meet his full potential – in any area? Does he have absolute power? If not, is he still developing it? Does he have absolute knowledge (omniscience)? If not, he is still in the process of developing it by learning something that he did not know “beforehand”? Can YHVH speak infallibly? If not, is he in the process of learning more things so his comments will eventually be without error? Or, is it possible for YHVH to “self-limit” himself (say, in his omniscience) without at the same time changing his essential attributes? And which attributes are essential?

It seems the question in theological discussion of this type is what kind of God is it that the Scriptures portray? One who is already fully complete in himself (self-sufficient), or a God who is, just like his human creations, on a journey to completeness? If YHVH is not already perfect (i.e. mature) is he therefore currently immature in some way, just like his created beings? And if God is not yet fully mature, what are the standards he must meet in order to qualify for perfection? For created beings, perfection is meeting the standards of the creator. But who sets the standards for the creator that he must meet in order to be perfect?

It seems to me the comment “If we think of the progression of Hebraic temporal experience, we can conceive of a series of turns of the wheel as it travels along a road viewed from time-lapse photography” does not eliminate linear time. If the wheel is turning, then it is moving “along” the road, and is not in the same place on that road that it was at the previous turn. And the next turn will put it into a different place again. Along the road, or along the river, all indicate a linear progression.

The BIG question is, of course, is whether or not time itself is the result of a creative act by YHVH? If time was not created, and therefore God is “creature” of time, does that mean God is aging? That is, were there for him anniversaries that existed before he created everything else? If not, does that mean some kind of qualitative difference in time before creation? If so, how would we know?

So many unanswered questions. 🙂

Drew

Skip,

Absolutely wonderful!

Prasie G_D that others are broadcasting the amazing reality of Y’SHUAH’s “choices” …

that all creation did hang in the balance …

that the revelation given to Isaiah depicting “if” Maschiach would give HIMSELF up for the transgressors really meant “uncertainty” …

that Mashiach was indeed fully human as well as divine …

that the Kingdom of G_D is not there but everywhere … not then but now …

that ELOHIM is complete self righteousness!

Bottom line … there was no fix! If Y’SHUAH’s redemptive victory was not subject to potential failure because choice was non-optional … then there can be no free choice …. yeah for the elect I suppose while the doomed should simply go about enjoying the waning moments of flesh! 🙁

As for the paradigm of exegesis by, in and through pattern … brilliant explanation in such a brief discourse …. praise haRuach WHO establishes wisdom in mortal beings!

G_D is the same always (as in the pattern of HIS essence and character … HOLY) … this does not mean that G_D is not dynamic … or constantly creative. ABBA showed Y’SHUAH … but Y’SHUAH repeated the pattern of revelation and truth HIS own way! The pattern is the key …. or as Skip might say … the tire did make the necessary revolution while heading in the direction which was required (the last turn of the wheel to get up the hill) … and then began the irreversible spinning down hill which can only result in one outcome … the wheel will get to the bottom no matter what!

Been busy brother Skip … quite busy!

L’shanah Tovah

Drew

Just could not let this commentary pass by without a little exhortation … 🙂 You go SKIP!

It is very interesting as well that such an abstract treatment of this complex truth reveals a very tactical understanding of living Torah! Often times followers of the way struggle with the danger of trying to do Torah to some perceived notion or prescripted letter of the law. Your explanation of overlapping patterns really hits home because we must admit that there are many times when the pattern is somewhat repetitive and prescriptive … such as the Pesach Siddur (Order of Service) as an example. Yes the pattern may be repetitive … and yes in many respects the variability of the actions may be small … but … but … the change in movement along the path moving towards the end state should result in a unique experience … and it does! Barukh HaSHEM!

Patterns by no means are problematic where there is passion and sustained movement towards the objective. Patterns also (as you pointed out) are not identical and can be quite dynamic. Rolling this back in we should see that the patterns of living Torah produce consistent actions and reactions to dynamic stimuli. The application of Torah principles (in SPIRIT) are not scripted and the behavior is most assuredly influenced by free will. Consequently Torah living can result in very dynamic behavior … yet the patterns should be recognizable as well as the movement towards the goal of being molded into the image and likeness of Y’SHUAH!

If I am not mistaken brother Skip … you are really on to something here that nags at the fabric of many a messianic believer: “How do I live Torah without trying to force compliance to the sacred mitzvot or obey by rote?” … I believe you have opened the door to the mystery because the over lapping patterns you depict really do bring to light G_D’s plan for us to bear witness to HIS faithfulness by confirming the patterns of the past. LeDor VeDor … generation to generation … pattern after pattern … yet our manifestation of the pattern is unique based upon the variables of who we are … the choices that we make … our application of Torah (in SPIRIT) and our movement towards the end state objective.

Therefore the prescriptive nature of Torah … Shabbat … Daily Prayers … Mo’adim … Diet … Ritual Purity …. etc. really represent the rotations of the wheel whereas as the dynamics of how we as individuals interact with ELOHIM and how we apply the SPIRITUAL intent of the sacred mitvot … represent the movement towards the final destination. As such … Torah by rote results in just a spinning wheel going nowhere even though like many of the Pharisees of Y’SHUAH’s day they looked good to human eyes as they spun and spun. Conversely a very fast spinning wheel that is directionally set and having good traction will get pretty darn far in a … should I dare say … finite time frame! 🙂

I did not mean to take liberty with your wonderful metaphor and teaching herein … nor do I want to imply that you agree with this extrapolation by any means … quite frankly the teaching leads to much broader application … IMO!

Luzette

And the rotation of the patterns result in a good measuring stick of oneself – to see if any growth took place?

On what basis do you say: “The application of Torah principles (in SPIRIT) are not scripted”? I am asking because I have a friend that believes in SPIRITUAL TORAH ONLY.

Drew

Shalom Luzette,

A good measuring stick? Nicely stated … 🙂

As far as Torah being Spiritual … we can verify this through Scripture … in fact Sh’aul declares this quite discretely … and naturally this only confirms the promise of the B’rit Chadasha filled up in Y’SHUAH wherein the law will be put upon our hearts. (see Jeremiah and Moses)

The fact that Torah is SPIRITUAL however does not eliminate or preclude the Spiritual application OF the prescriptions within Torah … such as honoring Shabbat or the Mo’adim …. or the commandment to pray and so forth. What is meant by Spiritual non-scripted application of Torah is our response to the stimuli encountered upon the way. Many situations in life call for diverse/unique responses … however the pattern of Torah application (manifesting the knowledge of G_D) should be consistent when viewing our behaviors in a principle(s) perspective. BUT …. our lives are not devoid of the prescriptive nature of Torah because G_D uses this for so many purposes … AND … we love the prescrptive component of Torah … just like David! In so many ways do the prescriptive components of Torah align me with my adoptive family Yisrael!

Torah is SPIRITUAL and TACTICAL. The mitzvot have not been abrogated … per Y’SHUAH HIMSELF. I’ve heard similar “spiritual Torah only” comments before my sister and one can only ask: “whose spirit is leading people towards a state of self proclaimed (either individual or communal) approved lawlessness?” I can’t fathom HaRUACH b’ELOHIM leading people away from the prescriptive patterns of Torah … that would equal some alien idea of freedom and liberty!

I pray for your friend! 🙂

Got to run … and beat the traffic … Shalom

Luzette

Yes, awesome (new year’s) present! Welcome back and please don’t get too busy again!

Luzette

Is forgiveness of sin really possible in Greek or linear time?

The Talmud states” that nothing can stand before repentance (yerushalmi,peah 1:1(5a)) — Except may be how we perceive time?

Why can God not do/move/be whatever way (linear/cycle/rotation/50 dimentional) He wants to “inside” or outside of time?

…..”When we use the Name HaShem, we are indicating that God is the ultimate present(was,is, will be) all at once, both past and future are also included in present…

..this is why according to Rabbi Akiba, “HaShem is the ultimate Mikvah(Jer 17:13)…..

…Mikvah,representing the present, is also the gathering of time….making past and future accessable to us…
…For HaShem there is no barrier between present and future and therefore when we assosiate with Him, our hope can pierce the barriers of time…..therefore..
…..hope,through the power of HaShem, is that which places US outside the limitations of time.

To transcend the bonds of time, is the ultimate freedom …in mikvah man is no longer bound by either past or future, but exists in an absolute present….. (Aryeh Kaplan – waters of eden)

Luzette

No I did’nt write it(some Jewish guy did) and I do not understand all of it either – thought you might!

All I could make of it was that they have a view that during Mikvah in living waters, calling unto the name of HaShem, past and future are both evident in the present – for it is in the present that God removes past sins, making you a new, clean being and isn’t that like removng a piece of time from your past? When forgiven, it is as if the sin never took place(of course the results stay) – and that can only happen in cyclical time?
I thought it was a nice Hebrew thought on Mikvah – apparently not!
Where is outside of time? And who put up those boundaries?

Michael

“To transcend the bonds of time, is the ultimate freedom …in mikvah man is no longer bound by either past or future, but exists in an absolute present….. (Aryeh Kaplan – waters of eden)”

Hi Luzette,

I’m not familiar with waters of eden, but for me “bonds of time” is a metaphor

On a practical level, I am bound by time when I’m am focused on the past or the future

An example might be worrying about what my daughter just did or what my wife is going to do

In either case, I have no control over it because it has either already happened or it hasn’t

When we worry about the past or future we just create more anxiety for ourselves

On the other hand, we can focus on our breath or on a prayer to God

(no easy task for me)

Most of the time, in the present, most of us would probably feel OK, if we would pray or meditate

In prayer and meditation, maybe there is a sense in which we transcend the “bonds of time”

In the eternal “Here and Now”

Bud Touvell

Sin entered Adam after satan stole his authority, given by YHVH. Y’shua the second Adam restored all things; “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned”, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Michaela Rohrer

THANK you Skip. ‘Adam CHOSE, not that sin attacked’ goes deep and wide for me with my somewhat Pentecostal upbringing. Aloha, Michaela

Larry R

I like Skip’s wheel example and have a comment. I see it as lots of wheels, some large, some smaller, all different sizes. However all in sync. Salvation begins in heaven (one wheel) the feasts begin in heaven ( another wheel). They sync at the feasts of Passover, first fruits … To show man God’s salvation here on earth where we can see it. Both wheels continue.

The feast wheel presents it’s self every year and will sync up with the salvation wheel for the fall feasts, I think this is Yeshua’s return. Just things put in to my mind as I ponder God’s word.

gail

what do we do with this: For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col. 1:19.

This certainly appears to say that there is something going on wiith blood shed at the cross. Skip, how does this fit in with what you are saying?