A Reader’s Summation

Michael C., one of our community, added this insightful summary of the last few days of discussion about the meaning of the cross.  He put it in a blog comment, but I thought it worthy of the whole community, so here it is:

Ok, I’m still tired but rested somewhat. Here’s my attempt to explain in my own words for my own understanding what these last two TW’s are saying:

Before Gen. 1:1 Elohim existed. All was however it was then. Elohim created the heavens and the earth and man and the rest. All was good, functioning as it should. Adam was the door, the first man to choose something other than God’s way – not good, not functioning as it should as it missed God’s perfect way, i.e. sin. The consequences of the sin was death, which wasn’t so before sin entered through Adam.

Death affected more than just man, death touched everything God created, even heaven in that God’s plan was now touched by death. God’s actions since then have been focused on fixing/restoring the original arrangement when death had no claim over man, earth and heaven. Restoration was the goal.

With sin’s introduction death now was the ultimate and final end for ever. It was irrevocable. Sin entered and man died. It was the rule and consequence of sin’s existence. Where sin is, death resides. Nothing can change that or conquer it apart from some action on God’s part.

God gives life back through his grace as a gift as man is doomed to death on his own standing mired in sin, death being it’s consequence. In order to change this ruling of death over man and its effect on everything else as well, God stepped in as a man and died like a man would die. However, since death only comes as a result of sin, it didn’t come to Yeshua because he had not sinned. Although Yeshua willingly died as man dies per the Father’s request. He experienced the consequences of sin which was death. But death had no hold over Yeshua because there was no sin in him requiring death. No sin, no power from death. Yeshua’s yielding to death was a voluntary offering to show that it could not hold him. Death had no authority over a real, tangible man that had no sin touching him. Yeshua was God incarnate, thus no sin and thus, no death. Had he even once sinned, Yeshua, too, would have been forever captive to death because of sin. Yeshua had no sin so death had absolutely no hold over him except that which Yeshua voluntarily allowed.

The body of Yeshua died, however, since there was no sin in his neshama, his ruach, his nephesh, death had no authority or hold on him and thus he lived, death had no sting to him. Death was now, for the first time, conquered completely and forever. Not singly just for me or just for you but for everything which death touched, that is, all that God created. Enmity, death’s control over everything it touched was now forever and totally conquered. Yeshua, who was anointed to do this feat conquered death by his sinless and death defying living, continued to live beyond the death of his body. Death no longer dominated after Yeshua’s power and ability to be untainted by the cause and pathway for death, that being sin, that is, anything not in total harmony with God’s character and purpose.

Yeshua’s sinless life made death null and void for the first time ever thus canceling out sin’s ability of inflicting death in all of creation. Peace is now present and evident due to Yeshua’s life, death and life beyond death, a feat never before or since done on one’s own power alone. Death’s previously ultimate power to keep separated all it touched from God is now, due to Yeshua’s life alone in conquering death’s ability to hold, is itself, now dead and unable to act as enmity between God and his creation.

Peace is now tangible and forever done because one conquered it as only Yeshua could have done, being without sin.

 

So, as sin and death entered in to creation through the one man, who happened to be Adam (it could have been you, me or whoever else was in the position of being first), life now through the one man Yeshuaput an end to death forever as power, control and life is restores through Yeshua as it was when God began creating the heavens, the earth and all that followed.

Paradise, where death is dead to us, is now restored.

This isn’t about forgiveness and grace. That was already done before Gen. 1:1, somehow, somewhere by God thus providing righteous standing to Abraham and all the others before Yeshua’s earthy, bodily arrival. This was about solving the death problem that sin brought. It was about one dying, Yeshua, in such a way so as to abolish the power of death that was ultimate since Adam up to Yeshua’s unique and all changing actions on the most hideous symbol of death, the cross, of his earthy time, that of the “all-powerful” Romans. Yeshua showed the cosmos definitively that death “ain’t nothing but a thang!” that was absolutely, totally and completely conquered and now rightly under God’s authority, period! Paradise restored through Yeshua.

Generally speaking, is that the whole enchilada?

 

Michael C.

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Christopher

“That I may dwell with them.”

Tasty enchilada Michael…no hot sauce for me thanks;)

Chris

Robin Jeep

Well stated, Michael! Thank you

Carol Mattice

IT is a long read for anyone who is not in the word . I thank GOD that I can receive what is being said.
My only pause on it was when it is said that ONLY THE BODY DIED..
1Cor.15: makes it clear to us all , that JESUS died and that HIS Spirit went back to GOD who gave it as it does with all of us.
The body in scripture represents the person.
If I am wrong ,I would like to see where.
It is GREEK to me that the body and the soul are separate and not Hebrew.
Hebrews I believe thought otherwise and did not split man up into pieces.

jeanette

i was going to take a break and read a novel by my 2nd favorite author, John Grisham. Yeshua is my first favorite Author.

But, i decided to get a Bible that’s in chronological order and read that while I study. Funny, i wonder why it’s not in chronological order. You sure can tell…… never mind. Anyone have a recommendation of a good one that’s in chronological order?

jeanette

Thanks Skip! By the time i read this i’d already found another source. i don’t so much trust the NIV. I’ll check out Lee McDonald’s work tho. Of course, you know how I feel about all those male authors, lol….. By the way, i started re-reading Guardian Angel a while back and got stuck on p.136, para. 1, because i can’t figure how you came to a couple of conclusions. i’m not one to accept “givens”. Will save that til the topic is right though.

Such a peaceful day today! I actually took a nap. Haven’t done that in a long time! Sooooo peaceful!

Shalom!

jeanette

Skip,

I checked out Lee Mcdonald’s work. Here is something VERY IMPORTANT by Lee McDonald himself about an error by the editors in his work. You gotta check those editors too. A girl just can’t rest. I think I will go ahead and read some John Grisham first. Then I’ll read the chronological one as I would a novel, as I continue to study.

http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/?p=393

Shalom!

jeanette

The author himself explained that the work will be very confusing to readers and will be corrected in an upcoming edition. I’ll have read the chronological by then 🙂
My point is that one must be very careful. I don’t think you’d disagree with that.

Michael

Before Gen. 1:1 Elohim existed. All was however it was then. Elohim created the heavens and the earth and man and the rest. All was good, functioning as it should. Adam was the door, the first man to choose something other than God’s way – not good, not functioning as it should as it missed God’s perfect way, i.e. sin. The consequences of the sin was death, which wasn’t so before sin entered through Adam.

Hmmm

Skip’s recent interpretations have been difficult to understand, but they “show and tell”

That is to say, Skip’s interpretations provide textual “evidence” for his “arguments”

IMO the arguments cannot stand alone very easily, and Michael’s arguments

Don’t make sense to me and they seem to be more Greek than Hebrew

IMO Judaism 101 provides nice summaries

For example:

Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Level: Basic

• Judaism believes in an afterlife but has little dogma about it

• The Jewish afterlife is called Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come)

• Resurrection and reincarnation are within the range of traditional Jewish belief

• Temporary (but not eternal) punishment after death is within traditional belief

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion.

Michael

Hi Skip,

My point about the Judaism 101 summary was that it is a good “summary”

And it is easy to understand and address the points

Please see my responses inline

SKIP:
So, some of the definitions provided by Judaism 101 do not reflect the thinking of the Jewish people in the first century. For this we have to dig deeper into the etymology and the history. Olam ha’ba is such an expression. What evidence from the Tanach supports the idea of the olam ha’ba and to what extent are we able to say much about it?

MIKE:
Understand

Skip:
How much Hellenism found its way into first century Jewish thinking about the afterlife? What does Yeshua tell us about this subject?

MIKE:
I don’t know. But my picture is of the Heavenly Court above and Earth below. Jesus dies, his spirit leaves his body, Angels come to earth, and the spirit of Jesus returns to his body and his Father. Dead bodies/souls are somewhere in between.

In my view, resurrection and reincarnation might be apples and oranges, but they are both fruit. In a sense, Jesus reincarnates in so far as he reenters his body.

SKIP:
Evidence needs to be collected and then examined for how it fits existing paradigms. Lots of work still to do.

MIKE:
Understand

In Matthew 11:14, Jesus said, “And if you are willing to accept it, [John the Baptist] is the Elijah who was to come.” Likewise, in John 3:3 Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

The above can be interpreted as a kind of reincarnation

Michael

Bezalel and Oholiab

Exodus 31 Then the Lord said to Moses, 2 “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God,

Hi Skip,

Just to play Devil’s Advocate, we can see in Exodus a body being filled with Spirit

And according to Aryeh Kaplan, the Tabernacle was meant to be a microcosm

Of the universe, the spiritual domain and the human body

It seems that in Exodus 31, the spirit is wisdom, knowledge, and skill

And there is a distinction between the spiritual domain and the human body

I would think that we have in common with Abraham an experience

Of being conscious of the external world, our bodies, and the Holy Spirit

In the Tanach, the wind can be a metaphor for God as I recall

And deep breathing is a good way to meditate on God

Yah (in) Weh (out)

Michael

“Spirit is a temporary empowerment by God”

Hmmm

Okay, now I see what you are saying

It is like (mount) Olive Oil coming to Help Popeye (I am what I am) the Sailor man

Or Wimpy with His In and Out burgers

Michael

oops, I forgot to mention the can of spinach (Spirit)

sharon

That can’t be the whole enchilada- If it was only to restore God’s original plan, then we would have to start over again from the beginning. Try again…..?

sharon

If it was just to “dwell with Him” then no need to even create us since we were with God before the foundation of the world, being in Christ. There must be another reason for the whole shebang! What exists after all is said and done that didn’t exist before?

sharon

Be careful, you might be standing next to me in heaven. You could ask Jesus Himself if He knows me, then you could breathe easier.

sharon

Labels and thought boxes mean nothing to a heart that is desperate to meet the one who knows them. A lover knows no bounds. I doubt if I fit into any of your mentions above, and yet if you were to search deeper, there is a river pure and clear where a surrendered heart will find rest. If you have to understand what is inside before you enter, then you are in control. To trust Him with your unknown places will begin a journey where you have not been before, take dominion over uncharted waters- then you will discover there is nothing new under the sun. Only in the SON are ALL things made new. YHWH is His name. He is coming and is making Himself known to all those you listed above and He speaks their language.

I might answer the questions you have shot at me…another day.

sharon

Dear Skip,

I am reading in my christian english bible and I see two words “knew”. One is old testament and one is new covenant. My question is wether they are the same original word? I know you are busy and might not have time for this but I am stuck and would like your view also.
They are found in Jeremiah 1:5, and Matthew 7:23.

Thank U,
sharon

sharon

Thank you!!!!

Rodney

Skip,
There is another aspect to “the cross” that is being overlooked here. I agree with what you have written so far – that it was about victory over death, not a sacrifice for sin, but there is something else too. Something very, very important.

it is about covenant. A Blood Covenant, and a Threshold Covenant. Both link back to the covenant YHVH made with Abraham. The Covenant of the Pieces.

In the type of covenant YHVH made with Abraham, the animals were cut in half and arranged so that the parties to the covenant could walk between them. The implication was, “If I break this covenant, may be be done to me as to these animals (i.e., death).”

Who walked between the pieces? Not Abraham. YHVH did, as the “flaming torch” and the “smoking oven”. In other words, YHVH took on himself the responsibility for both parts of the covenant – Abraham’s and YHVH’s. So, when Abraham’s descendants broke the covenant, who had to die?

The crucifixion was about covenant. The resurrection was the proof of victory and ultimate authority over death.

But even that is only part of the story. The Threshold covenant also comes into play and even that ties back to the promise of land given to Abraham by YHVH and to Pesach (Passover).

There is much still to be said and written about this topic, and much unlearning and relearning for all of us along the way.

Shabbat Shalom.

Mary

Hasn’t there always been blood involved in the covenant(s)? In this Shabbat’s Torah portion, the covenant at Sinai clearly states, the blood from the sacrifices was sprinkled upon the altar first and then upon the people who had confessed obedience to whatever YHWH instructed. This covenant, had nothing, as far as I can see, to offer in the way of forgiveness…rather, it appears to be an agreement to live life as the Creator “dictates”. How far we have come…or maybe we haven’t even gotten to this point…and He is calling us there now. Forgiveness is relative to repentance…living differently. Shamefully, the “gospel” seems to avoid this important aspect of “living for Jesus”.

Israel lived as captive in the land of the Egyptians, a land that worshipped a multitude of a variety of gods, and their lifestyles were dictated by base emotions and physiological drives that consumed the human experience. YHWH, as Creator knew of the need for corralling these emotions and urges, and left history as evidence that mankind could not within himself tame his imagination and feelings. Lovingly, He gave Divine instruction to guide us in our darkness. The culture of death surrounding the sacrificial system symbolized the ritual only our Creator could command and pagans pursuing that power perverted the practice in witchcraft, sorcery and folklore. But, in the fullness of time, across the ages, the manifestation of eternal perfection was revealed in Yeshua, His perfect love expressed to His Father in His obedience, sacrifice and resurrection as the Supreme I AM for the entire world to witness His love for the world. Yeshua, the crowning perfection of YHWH, the covenant that is written upon our hearts…It is time, Yeshua is seen in the beauty of reality once again.

Shabbat Shalom Neighbors

Mary

Shamefully, the “gospel” seems to avoid this important aspect of “living for Jesus”. I meant the post modern teaching of the gospel…of course, the Biblical gospel teaches repentance.

Michael

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance

Hi Mary,

The wiki url above has a lot of interesting information on repentance

Mary

Hey Michael,
Agreed, it is certainly interesting when considering the concept of repentance. I think repentance has been set in the hearts of men for instances when others have wronged them; therefore, the standard for repentance seems to be where the roads divide. We all want to be forgiven but not necessarily do the deeds of repentance… Where’s that easy button?
Thanks for the wiki url 🙂

Michael

“sins enumerated involve mistreatment of other people, most of them by speech (offensive speech, scoffing, slander, talebearing, and swearing falsely, to name a few). These all come into the category of sin known as “lashon ha-ra” (lit: the evil tongue), which is considered a very serious sin in Judaism.”

Hey Mary,

I was just looking at Yom Kippur in Judaism 101 and noticed offensive speech and scoffing

I didn’t realize offensive speech and scoffing were sins that required repentance

In the future I’ll need to be more careful about reacting to my wife and daughter

Unlike my son, they tend to “push my buttons” from time to time

Mary

Aren’t we all in need of “watching” and “seeing” when we hear hot button sounds? Sometimes (possibly more often than I want to admit) I am dull of hearing.

Maybe we can encourage one another in these things…seems like that is one of the outgrowths of this forum. For certain, it is the heart of YHWH for us to do so in the homeland.

Practice makes perfect.
Shalom.

Michael

“meaning of the cross”

Hmmm

For me, the most interesting thing about the Cross

Is that it allows us to see logical oppositions very clearly

For example:

Good



Not Good————————————Not Bad



Bad

Spring > Summer > Fall > Winter

Romance > Comedy > Satire > Tragedy

Liberals > Conservatives > Radicals > Reactionaries

Y H V H