Paradigm Shift
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5 NASB
Redeem – The Greek verb for “redeem” is exagorazo. It literally means “to purchase out of.” The root of the verb, agorazo, comes from the noun, agora, which in turn means “the marketplace.” So this verb in Galatians recalls the imagery of going to the market to buy something once owned by the purchaser. According to the usage in Paul, Yeshua bought us back. The action is dynamic, not static. It is the process of the repurchase that matters.
But this begs a question that is almost never asked. What did Yeshua buy us back from? Who was the present owner when He came to repurchase us? Don’t think that Paul says we were owned by the Law! It isn’t the Law that was our slave master. Paul describes us as “under the Law,” not “owned by the Law.” What’s the difference? The Law (Torah) established God’s instructions for life and the punishment for disobedience. Because we are under its umbrella, we are subject to its requirements and consequences. Being under the Torah, i.e., being subjected to its stipulations, we find that our disobedience demands our death. But it is death that owns us, not the Torah. We are held captive by death due to our failure to keep Torah. We don’t need to be redeemed from the Law; we need to be redeemed from the result of breaking the Law! If we had kept Torah, there would be no need to be redeemed from Torah for keeping it guarantees life. Our problem is not the standard. It is the consequence of not keeping the standard.
Yeshua comes to buy us back from the death sentence that hangs over each of us. This fits perfectly with the Hebrew idea of redemption. In Hebrew thought, redemption (deliverance, salvation, return) makes no sense unless there is an immediate threat to life itself. So if you ask a Jew today, “Are you saved?” he will probably respond, “From what?” No threat – no need for redemption. For Paul this means that I only understand exagorazo in terms of thanatos (death). Just as Yeshua was bought back from the grave, so He buys me back from the inevitable and justified termination of my life. To be redeemed is to be brought back to life!
And Paul notes that only those who have been brought back to life may be adopted as sons.
Why was Yeshua born? Why did He come into the world at the kairos moment? So that He might live under the same standard that we do (Torah) and by perfectly fulfilling it but dying anyway, He might substitute His death for yours and mine and bring us back to life. In this passage, does Paul say that Yeshua will redeem us from sin? That’s how we would usually read this statement, but notice that it doesn’t say that. In fact, sin isn’t the issue. It’s the consequences of sin that’s the issue. God has provided many ways of dealing with sin, but until there is a way of dealing with the consequences, forgiveness doesn’t accomplish much (is this too bold to say?). If you were Paul, and you wanted to communicate a compelling message to a pagan audience, would you tell them that they could be forgiven of their sins or would you tell them that there was an answer to the specter of death?
Topical Index: redeem, exagorazo, Law, torah, death, Galatians 4:4-5
I have to say this is becoming more clear to me as I think about the whole picture of Yeshua’s life. Frankly, while I thought I understood all the religious talk from years gone by regarding the story of Scriptures, it really never totally connected. I went along with it all, but the pieces just didn’t fully connect.
This explanation is fitting together much better in my mind and heart. The whole issue has become one of now seeing face to face as opposed to looking in a mirror dimly.
These explanations allow my thoughts to stop bouncing around with strange ideas and simply come to a still and composed reality of what happened. So simple. Void of religious jargon. Plain truth. A + B = C. Basics.
It makes sense to me. I get it.
It gives me context to the word shalom.
Again, thanks Skip. Finally, puzzle pieces coming together to make compose a picture that I can see and understand and live in, on, and by.
I agree with you, Michael C
“Finally, puzzle pieces coming together to make compose a picture that I can see and understand and live in, on, and by.”
Some Believers who have come forth from Christiandom still hold on to that “Paul said….”
and somehow not able to have that paradigm shift in terms of turning from church ingrained teachings to Hebraic. Thus they continue to force the wrong pieces into the puzzle, even though those pieces will keep bouncing out LOL.
Shalom!
“Yeshua comes to buy us back from the death sentence that hangs over each of us.” PRAISE YHVH. Only HE could have this much power over sin and death, and He did this out of a love we can’t come close to understanding! A brand plucked from the burning am I!!!
“If we had kept Torah, there would be no need to be redeemed from Torah for keeping it guarantees life.” A bit of confusion has set in to my pea-sized brain here. So, Skip, do you believe it is possible to keep Torah as so many Jews do (or, if they didn’t, at least their sacrifices and burnt offerings, when they had a temple/tabernacle, put them back in the “good graces” of YHVH. Not exactly sure what they believe their situation to be now or if it’s even fair to encapsulate all Torah-observant Jews as “they.”)
I’d love to meet the person who has kept Torah. Hey, I WILL meet Him one day!
When Moses says, These are not too difficult for you or too far off, I take him at his word. Yes, it is possible. Why would God give me instructions for living if He knew I couldn’t do them? Did I live up to the expatiation. No. So I need help, forgiveness, atonement.
But what about Enoch?
Ah, put that one aside. Does the Old Testament teach us that some men were righteous before the Lord? Yes, I’m pretty sure it does. So that means, in my book, that they found grace in His eyes, and some of them didn’t have Torah at all. So what does that mean for our truncated version of forgiveness.
Just questions. I’m not sure I have the answers. But I do know that the answers I thought I had don’t seem so adequate anymore.
Skip, and fibromom,
If I may butt in. Yes, the “Jews”/ Yahudeans have kept Torah and yet miss the target, just as many, if not most followers of Christianity, having Yahushua, still miss their target.
The “Jews” did realize what trespassing the Torah/instructions will lead to, due to immediate consequences-death penalties, yet, they too have many battles to face, both physically and spiritually, that is, of a wrong spirit, attitude of submission, and mentality of unbelief.
I believe the righteous ones tried their best, as there are non perfect in all their ways.
This video, and Bill Sanford has many on his Utube site, will hopefully clear many doubts that Yahushua was there from the beginning, in the Tanakh, so those who kept Torah would have salvation, grace and etc.
http://youtu.be/NWyCp_SNPjw
Also, one of my favourite songs in Hebrew from:-
YeshaYahu 12: 12:2,3
הִנֵּה אֵל יְשׁוּעָתִי אֶבְטַח וְלֹא אֶפְחָד כִּֽי־עָזִּי וְזִמְרָת יָהּ יְהוָה וַֽיְהִי־לִי לִֽישׁוּעָֽה׃
Here is EL my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid, for YHWH my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation.
12:3
וּשְׁאַבְתֶּם־מַיִם בְּשָׂשֹׂון מִמַּעַיְנֵי הַיְשׁוּעָֽה׃
Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation(yeshuati).”
The “Jews” had to bring sin offerings/sacrifices to redeem themselves, whereas we have Yahushua Who paid for all our transgressions. HalleluYAH!
My little contribution 🙂 Shalom!
A Paradigm Shift? Ever so slightly. After we (the created ones) willingly, knowingly crucified the Lamb of God at Calvary. (We) accused Him falsely, presented Him before the authorities in a false light, bribed the witnesses and even the crowd (more like a mob) cried out in frenzied unison- “Crucify Him, crucify Him!” after all the spit,the scorn, the slander and the sufferings- what was His response? (Mr. Translator, are you there?) He said, “Father, forgive them- for they know not what they do.” Would you- could you agree with Him? Or did they know exactly Who He was and yet went ahead with this slow and torturous process of elimination anyway?
We may not have known, but He knew. He knew exactly what He was doing ~ and for the JOY that was set before Him, endured the cross despising the shame ~
~ He was despised and rejected of men…~ Mr. Translator, was Isaiah right?- thousands of years before Christ came into our humanity? Paradigm Shift? Yes, I too- am starting to understand.
Someone else, understood also and wrote an inspired song entitled: “Amazing Grace”. And just how “amazing” is ~ tHis grace in which we now stand? ~ If only I could search for and find the right words. Infinitely amazing? Try harder mister. Dig a little bit deeper. Go there, go to His cross for yourself and “behold the Man upon a cross,” better yet try kneeling. And after this, pray with your face buried as it were in the dust of the floor and weep (as many others have done) for the atrocities we lavished upon the sinless-spotless-saving-Sovereign Lamb of God.
Paradigm Shift? Yes. A wonderful description of repentance. What happened,- what occurred -when the wandering son “came to his senses and said to himself..” – (what?- was he all alone in the pigpen?) Or did he somehow “wake up” in wonder and ask himself- “What on this green earth am I doing here?”
“He came to his senses.” Knock-knock. Wake up. God calling. Go home.
Is there more to this story?- and is this just a story?- or is there (as always) a story behind the story? Yes, there is more… Always “more..” Step 1. A “paradigm shift”- he came to his senses. (Yo, wandering son- where have you been and where are you now?) Adam, (said God) – where are you? Hannah, (said God) “where are you?- and where are you going?” What we have here is Someone who seeks- and Someone (a Savior?) who speaks! God is calling.
Did Christ say “come unto Me- ALL you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest?” Were these His words and does He or has He ever (one time) lied? No, not once and no, not ever. If we were to come to Him- would He then give us this promised rest?
“And the words of the LORD are flawless, (and faithful!) like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.” (Psalm 12.6)
What He says – He will do. Always. There is ONE who not only promises, but He also performs. When He says, “I will..” brothers, sisters, He will. God does not and cannot (ever) lie.
Pilate asked our LORD,as he was standing (he should have been face down) before the King of kings (have we so easily or conveniently forgotten “Who” this Man is?), a question which we all should know the answer to: “What is Truth?”
My long distance and centuries later answer to this (confused?) inquiry is this: Pilate, Truth is not a concept- tHis is Truth Incarnate- standing right here and right now “in your face.” Christ is (the) Truth.
Now, if we may “fast-forword” several millenia, (easy to do- right?) and ask our honest selves a very similar question: Who said, (Mr. Translator)- “I AM the Way. I AM the Truth. I AM the Life? Could it possibly be (the) I AM incarnated into human flesh? Was God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself? Did God provide (Himself) the Lamb? Yes?
So, (amazing indeed) did our Creator willingly allow the creation (us) to nail Him to the tslav- the execution stake? Yes?
And now..knowing this,- (or do we need further proof?) what is our right response to this revelation?
Me? It’s “facetime”- as in face down, prostrate on the ground and pleading for a covering, an atonement. Is there an atonement available?
~ In whom we (all) have redemption.. (How?) – What do the scriptures say? –
~ In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace ~ (Ephesians 1.7)
Ephesians has been called “The Switzerland of the New Testament,” – I agree!
And now.. for the rest of the story… back to the wandering sheep.. (and oh yes!, “ALL” we like sheep have gone astray.. amen!- “all.” )
Friends, are we able to remember this? ~ The Father (our Father) ran to meet him. (me!)
Yeshua HaMashiach, God the Son “embraced” the leper! A Paradigm Shift? God in a hurry? Embracing a leper? I am now “there” with them, “leaping and dancing and praising God!” for He has delivered me. My identity? One (among many) who is now *in Christ!* Bought with the precious blood of Christ. I am one “bought one” (one among many) and I now belong (in entirety) to Him,- the (always) Good Shepherd of the sheep!
And now for the last word. (lol!) After the long-winded palaver he says, (the words we’ve all been waiting for!) “..and in conclusion.”
Does anyone recall the very last spoken word, breathed out of the mouth of God and the Second Adam?
“Paid in full.” (Redeemed.) How I love to proclaim it. (now,please) Tell me the story of Jesus. (and) Write on my heart every word.
One WORD spoke this world into existence
One WORD is the Redeemer
One WORD heard can save eternally
I like to put concepts into simple everyday terms and situations if at all possible. So to take the concepts associated with the Law (Torah), the breaking of the law, and the consequences of breaking the law, I think of it and explain it in these simple terms.
Think of the Law (Torah) being a speed limit with the penalty for breaking the speed limit being death. The speed limit is a good thing…it keeps us safe and it keeps others safe. The Torah is a good thing. It shows us how to live our lives in a way that is pleasing to God and our fellow man. Man can easily break the speed limits and in fact he does all the time. The same goes for the Torah. In breaking the speed limit or Torah, man might die a physical death as a result of being unsafe…the same with Torah. But in this case, as stated above, the punishment for breaking the speed limit is death, as with the Torah.
Now lets say that Yeshua came to “save us” from the punishment of death (the consequence) for breaking the speed limit or Torah. He was given the right to save us because he never ever broke the speed limit or the Torah. He was able to step in and say “put me to death״ instead of all the others who broke the law because I never have. I have earned the right to take their place. So Yeshua is put to death as a substitute for our punishment. Something really cool happened, however. Yeshua rose from the dead…he conquered death, thereby guaranteeing life to all of us law breakers. But the law still exists. It still is illegal to go faster than the speed limit. It is still unsafe to do so. We still live in this world and need an instruction book (the Torah) in order to live our lives properly. Just because Yeshua conquered death doesn’t mean all the laws go away. If one stops to really think about it, it’s ludicrous to think that a law should go away just because someone was perfect in keeping it. It’s just as ludicrous to think that the law should go away because Yeshua took my punishment for breaking it. Let’s say we are talking about murder instead of breaking a speed limit law. Just because someone paid the penalty for me being a murderer doesn’t mean that everyone else gets the right to go around murdering. Or stealing. Or coveting. Or breaking the Sabbath. Or…. That’s ludicrous, but that is essentially what is being preached from pulpits all around the world each Sunday.
This makes so much more sense than what I have been taught my whole life. Than you Skip for challenging us to think out of the box of our old paradigms and to begin using new paradigms in our study of the Scriptures.
Shalom Gary,
I like your analogy of speeding.
Anyway, why are folks wary of the “law” as if it is a bad thing, when it protects us?
It would be the lawless who dislike the law, obviously?
The paradigm change, shift, is to turn from pulpit teachings, yes!
You, all of us here, are so blessed to have these challenging teachings by Skip, and to have the understanding to receive them. Amein!
The reason the West is so adverse to words like “law” is because we believe in “freedom” which for our culture means “absence of restrictions on what I wish to do.” So, “law” has negative overtones even if we agree that we have to have “some” impositions to maintain civil order.
One Nation, Under God
We, those in the “West,” must be made to understand, every body serves some body (somewhere). There are none of us who are not “under authority.” A child (hopefully) is under the jurisdiction of his or her parents, as they themselves at one time were “under” the protective watchcare and instruction of their own set of parental carbon units, (aka mom and dad) – and on down the line it goes.
Those of us who have served in the military know what it means to operate “under” orders. The soldiers at Benghazi (no, I refuse to forget) were “under orders” to stand down. These orders were issued from above, -from some body, somewhere – a Higher Authority.
Torah, (the word of God) is our “Higher Authority,” that which we will answer to. If (since) God says to love (God has instructed us to love one another with a pure heart fervently) we then, in obedience to our Father and the One who has given unto us all things richly to enjoy, up to and including His only begotten Son – then we, those who belong to Him by right of creation and then again by way of the cross of Calvary, those who are now called the sons and daughters of God- ought to now out of a heart of love, rather than a heart of fear, and obey Him. We now “do” what is pleasing to our Father, for as we (hopefully by now) have discovered, obedience to the word(s) of the LORD lead to life, result in righteousness (right-relatedness) and are for our own shalom (wellness, health, well-being, happiness and holiness- or “D.) all of the above.”
We will discover that to know and to His will, (that which is pleasing in His eyes) results in His smile, and we also find our own selves smiling as well! The peace of God and with God is ours. We are then “righteous” or in right relationship, as a loving and giving Father is to His obedient and joy-filled children. What father or mother (he inquired) is not delighted with obedient children?
What is the motivation for our obedience? The “why?” of it? Why would I “want” to obey God? Perhaps a better question might be- why would I not want to obey the Source ~ of EVERY good and perfect gift? ~- the Giver of all things that are good? Why should I fear Someone who loves me perfectly? May each of us (and all of us) say it and show it, together as one family: ~ I take joy in doing your will, my God, for your instructions (yarah-directions-instructions) are written on my heart ~ (Psalm 40.8)
Need help in the “doing of it?” So do I. (Only) every moment of every day and night! We need only rely on and respond to His unfailing promise: ~ Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.” ~ (Isaiah 30.21)
Life (all of life) has “rules.” Rules do not restrict us- they free us. There are laws governing music. Notes, scales, rests, – written instructions for the artist,the one using the instrument to utilize. A four year old might sit down in front of a piano and play anything he or she “wants to,” and the results or consequences of this would be? (A cacophony of confusion- much like we are witnessing in our confused society today!) It takes (here’s a new word for you kids!) “discipline” to make (good) music. Practice-practice-practice “doing” the right thing. Then it (will (appear to) flow naturally. By practicing Torah (the instructions of YHWH- the word(s) of God, our Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, we are and will learn what it means to “walk by faith and NOT by sight!”
And for this (also) we give You praise! What a mighty God we serve! Remember, (realize-recognize) His purpose: ~ that we might receive adoption as sons! ~ and because we are His children, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, prompting us to call out, “Abba, Father.” ~ (Galatians 4.6)
We in the West have read Galatians
Galatians 5 declares that salvations purpose is freedom.
We are free from the penalties of the law, whose requirements we could never fulfill. We are free to live into the wholeness –holiness– to which the law was meant to restore us.
This wholeness and holiness belong to us thru the Lord Jesus Christ.
God has placed His Spirit within us, and when we walk according to it we will bear the fruit of His Spirit which is: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, (there’s our word!) temperance. (I know some of you want to do these things yourself, but you no can than you can grow tomatoes on your head.)
The Spirit produces this in those in step with HIM.
The powerful work of the Holy Spirit at work in the believer counteracts the influence of sin. Because of Him, we do not wish to kill those who cut us off on the freeway. HE is more powerful in my daily life than the written Ten. Let’s not slight His ministry to us. Jesus said it would be better He Himself went away so the comforter could come.
It is the ‘law’ of the Spirit Who give life. It is HE Who has set us free from the law of sin and death. (Rom. 8: 2)
We can do something, we can set our mind on what the Spirit desires (Rom. 8: 5,6)
You like to ask questions and provide good questions for your readers to mull over. (I’ll grant you, good teachers do this, so understand I’m not knocking your method)
Someday the only question worth asking will be …….? anyone know? Lets leave it a question to ponder deeply.
But I am going to provide the ANSWER ahead of your question.
“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
. . .o u c h
Dear Dorothy,
While your exegesis of Galatians follows the usual Christian interpretation, it is unfortunately not in concert with rabbi Sha’ul’s view of nomos (the law) in his own life or in his other letters. Your view is essentially Augustinian and Lutheran, and has been part and parcel of replacement theology for quite a long time, but many, many scholars are now seeing the errors in this view, especially in light of the recognition that the authors of the New Testament are Jewish, orthodox and rabbinic.
I suggest that you carefully read Mark Nanos on Galatians’ argument, and then Pamela Eisenberg, “Paul was not a Christian”. These books effectively destroy the view that Paul offered us salvation without Torah.
As for the illumination of the Holy Spirit, I have written quite a bit about this epistemological claim among evangelicals, so I won’t reiterate the arguments here.
Thank you for continuing to work through these problems. They are big ones for most Christians and few have the courage to really look at them.
Dorothy, with the utmost respect, the “law” was not given for justification, but for sanctification (as YHVH himself tells us several times throughout Leviticus).
In speaking of those who seek to be “justified by law”, which “law” is Paul referring to (since there is no definite article to be found in this phrase in the Greek text)?
I fear that here we have yet another case of the translation committee’s a-priori theological position getting in the way of an (admittedly difficult) accurate translation. Check out how Young’s Literal Translation renders this passage:
The law declared them righteous, yet from that grace they fell away. How? By seeking to be justified by their own efforts?
Bear in mind that the context of the letter is that certain Pharisees of the House of Shammai (who hated the gentiles and taught that they had no place in the olam ha’ba) had gone to Galatia (not sent by the apostles) teaching them that they must “be circumcised and keep the entire law of Moses” (i.e. convert to Judaism) in order to be “saved”. This has never been true, because the law was not given for salvation.
As Skip constantly reminds us, context is everything…
I had thought of the different ‘law’ being imposed in the West these days after I have posted my comments.
It is a different altogether just as ABBA has given mankind the freedom to choose, and in the same way, that freedom has been abused.
Skip, thanks for replying.
I must say you wear out some arguments like replacement theology.
For the record, I have never read that in my Bible, so I do not hold to ‘the church replaces Israel’. But I do know that lie floats out there, would to God it were the only lie, but it has many to accompany it.
It is not anything I buy, so when I write, you can know ahead of time that no defense of the Gospel will ever stem from this giant, ridiculous error.
Another one you randomly throw out is that ‘it is unclear who wrote Hebrews’. You insert this whether or not anyone’s post was discussing it. Shrug. I already know Who inspired the Word, so that ball will never be batted back to your court.
Now as to your offering me extra books to read (I will credit you with good intentions) to explain the Word to my brain, –washed whiter than snow by Luther and Augustine, (lol)– it only causes me to think of the Mormons and JWs who do the exact same thing and “add to”.
I will pass on Mark Nanos and Pamela Eisenberg because the Holy Spirit is quite able to explain Himself. I pass on ALL but the Bible. It is clear to me as a bell.
I am a Christian and I am not ashamed of it. I pray to God there is enough evidence of it to convict me if ever I am tried in court for it. (yes, somebody else said that, but fits).
I will write here as a Christian until you dump me on the outside of your community and tell me to take a hike, at which time I will move on. Little “self-appointed committees” need not try to usurp you on that. lol
I pray God will someday open your eyes like He did for Paul, –he left his gunk (old theology) on the ground beside his horse, {and excuse me} but and no one could tell the difference in it and what came out of the horse. Then God used Paul mightily to spread the GOOD NEWS.
May it be so for you. > Sincerely, D
Skip, sorry but I´m still very confused.
We still die today, where is non-death? People before Yeshua DID have eternal life – Moses and Isaiah appeared with Yeshua, and that was before He was crucified and resurrected – and they did without “confessing” Yeshua. Not to speak of Abraham, David, Salomon, Job and the rest of the OT notables.
What changed?
OK, let’s try again. The GUILT of sin is removed, wiped away so that we enjoy the presence of God, as a result of the sacrifice of the Lamb before the foundation of the world. Therefore, Abraham and I enjoy God’s presence through precisely the same mechanism even though I have much more detail (but not that much more) than Abraham did. However, neither Abraham nor I have the certainty that God has dealt with the PENALTY until the resurrection, an event that guarantees that the claim of God to share His life with mine is vouched safe in my world. And, when Yeshua innocently dies, he removes the final stronghold of the pagan and demonic world by taking its last threat and converting it to a statement about God’s power over life and death (same thing God did in Egypt).
Better?
How do you know how much detail Abraham had? It just seems that we are trying to explain and rationalize something that happens 100% in the spiritual realm, something of which we are not very versed in. At least I am not.
What last threat of the pagan and demonic world? Not to our lives. According to this text, the only difference before Yeshua was less detail? in spiritual access to God? not our lives. I wish I had Moses detail.
Obviously I´m not getting it, but it does sound like we are trying to comprehend mentally something that is not meant to be mental at all. We barely understand the angelic/demonic as it is, and Scripture has very limited information on this. How are we going to understand the change of legislature or order of that realm?
First century pagan cultures were much more versed in the demonic/angelic/magic spiritual realm than we are today as protestants or messianic or whatever it is that we call ourselves. Maybe we should study their context to understand what Paul was trying to say to THEM. After all, we need to see what the original audience would have understood. But it is a topic we don´t even like to think about, much less study, given the limited info in our Bibles.
I´m more used to your very pragmatic one-two-ko writing. Sorry to be difficult, it still doesn´t add up for me.
But we do know about Abraham and Moses because we have lots of material about religious practice and thinking in Mesopotamia and Egypt. Those are the cultures that are the original audiences.
First century paganism has even more research and material. And the idea that pagans believed in reincarnation doesn’t see to be part of the religious thinking of Egypt or most of the first century Mediterranean world.
I am a bit bothered by your suggestion that all of this is 100% in the spiritual realm and is basically incomprehensible to us. Does that mean God’s revelation about His actions and character are not really true? If it all happens in ways we can never understand, why read the Bible at all? And the claim that all of this is in the 100% spiritual realm suggests the Platonic dichotomy that has so infected Christian thinking but cannot be found in biblical material.
I don’t mean to make things more difficult, but I wonder if your perspective isn’t confused by these usual evangelical categories. What if you set all that aside and simply asked, “What kinds of questions would Paul need to address if he were tailoring his arguments to the pagans of the first century?” Of course, Paul writes to many different groups, but once we realize that, are we not required to ask “Who is the audience for THIS letter?” and not assume that all letters have the same audience.
Your´re right about Egypt and reincarnation, but not about the rest of the mediterranean world. Greece and Rome were very much into reincarnation. And of course, so were the Celts, the forefathers of our audience in question.
Why do you extrapolate my comment on this issue into the whole Bible? I meant that we know little about what happens in the spiritual demonic/angelic realm- many a sterile discussion has been had about things the Bible has little information about, ie demons and angels and the “hosts.” And some other things too. Who was the “being” who fought with Jacob? we don´t know. Did Adam and Eve´s kids have children with….we don´t know! I never said that we the Bible was a spiritual text and can be only understood spiritually. God forbid.
I agree, we need to understand who Paul was writing to and why. According to some internet sources, 🙁 the galatians we descendants of Celts in Asia Minor, under Roman rule. That´s quite a pagan combo right there.
It´s so refreshing to argue with you again. Thanks.
Yes, it is refreshing.
I don’t put much stock in the connection to the Celts. I am more interested in what Corinth was like in the first century, etc. As for reincarnation, if you are suggesting that Platonic reincarnation is similar to what we call reincarnation, then you will need to take a look at Platonism again, and the mystical religions that grew out of Greek philosophy. Me too.
I didn’t mean to extrapolate your comments about spiritual domains to the whole Bible. You’re right. We don’t know much about this. But do we need to? Apparently not. So, while we don’t know much about HOW Yeshua performed the sacrifice in the heavenly temple, we do know that that’s where it happened.
“If you were Paul, and you wanted to communicate a compelling message to a pagan audience, would you tell them that they could be forgiven of their sins or would you tell them that there was an answer to the specter of death?”
Gal 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to the Guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. 27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise.
Hi Skip,
I think your point above is a very good one, but we are not pagans who worship false gods
My guess is that most of us are some sort of Christian who tries to follow a subset of the Jewish laws
But Paul seems to be saying that the Jewish laws no longer apply
That we are all children of God through faith
And no longer need the Guardian
Actually, we are pagans if we compare what we believe to first century believers. In addition, the idea that Paul tells Gentiles they don’t have to follow Torah is a mis-reading of the biblical text, although it certainly is consistent with most Church doctrine. I have written a lot about this.
“Actually, we are pagans if we compare what we believe to first century believers.”
Pagan: An adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity, especially when viewed in contrast to an adherent of a monotheistic religion.
Hi Skip,
Ahhh yes, but you referred to Paul’s compelling message to a pagan audience
And first century believers were, strictly speaking, no longer pagans 🙂
But I think you misunderstood. Paul’s message to pagans was that there is a solution to death. As a result of believing him, those pagans accepted Yeshua and became converts to Messianic Judaism. They weren’t pagans AFTER they accepted Yeshua and the culture of first century Messianic Judaism, but they were certainly pagan when he first gave them the message.
Skip, did´t pagans, particularly greek and roman, believe in reeincarnation? they did have a solution for death, just not as we see it today. Maybe they learned to believe in one life with Yeshua, or that believing in Yeshua ended their 3,000 year journey of lives.
That would make sense to the pagans, not having to be die repeatedly….does that make sense?? 🙂
“But I think you misunderstood.”
Hi Skip,
Maybe, but in my view the connection is broken and the path is not clear
Paul’s message to pagans that there is a solution to death is Greek to me
Good, honest, God fearing Christians come to my door with that message
As a result of believing in the Lord Jesus and having faith in the Lord God
We will be saved (I don’t believe it)
The people who were pagan when Paul first taught them this “solution” to death
Were not pagans after Paul’s message, but they were believers in Paul’s Doctrine
It seems to me, in your view, Paul’s Doctrine is a sort of third way
Neither Judaism nor Catholicism/Protestantism
The question for me is if we want to believe in Paul’s Messianic Judaism
What is it?
– Yeshua was not God the Father but rather a Son of God and the Son of Man
– Yeshua was a Messiah, but not ben Joseph or ben David
– We believe in the Bible, but cannot believe everything it says
– We have over 300 commandments to obey
– Paul was the leader of this religion and a powerful pawn in the Roman Empire
– Paul killed many innocent Jews who were the first members of the movement
This may help (or not) I remain hopeful
Paul’s messages were never anything but Jesus’ messages.
Jesus’ message to the church in Smyrna (Rev. 2:8-11) give us a peek into the life of a first-century congregation.
The message was from the Lord Jesus Christ: “These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again”
Jesus acknowledging their trials: “I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9). Physical poverty, but “rich” in spiritual wealth that no one could take away
Jesus tells Smyrna of coming persecution and a crown He has for them.
Then a final promise “He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death” (Rev. 2:11).
The overcomers refer to all believers (1 John 5:4-5).
The second death is a reference to the final judgment of the wicked.
(anyone who rejects The Lord Jesus Christ is of the “Synagogue of Satan”, tho they were a real batch of people, too.)
Believers will not be hurt at all by that judgment; their sin was judged at the cross. (which is foolishness to some, but not to those being saved)
In Christ, there is no more condemnation (Rom. 8:1).
God does not exact payment twice. Jesus paid for our sin and mankind accepts that, or man pays (and cannot), so go to an eternal “debtors prison”.
Believers do not die but pass thru a shadow of death with Him by our side. (Ps. 23)
It looks like death, but it is not, it cannot hurt a believer.
The Word of God assures us that all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will have everlasting life (John 3:16, 6:47; 1 John 5:13).
Everlasting life is “perpetual”. Life is such that, once begun, does not end, it continues perpetually into eternity. There was a time you were not, but never a time you will not be, now that Jesus has created you.
Man’s life is not merely physical. Rather, the true life of human beings is spiritual, and when the physical drops this temporary tent, the spiritual continues throughout eternity.
We are now free of the fear of death, for in actuality it cannot touch us; we have the promise of God that we will never die spiritually, but will live forever with our Lord Jesus (1 Thess. 5:9-10).
Free from sin, free from death, alive to Him, dead to self.
This may help (or not) I remain hopeful
Paul’s messages were never anything but Jesus’ messages.
Hi Dorothy,
I agree and my argument would be
Who needs Paul?
What value did he add?
Why is he so important?
He is part of the narrative
And he opens the door to gentiles
And what else?
Thanks,
Mike
Well, I need Paul. I admire great works of art.
Paul is a beautiful picture of what God can do with a man’s life.
His story is an amazing story of redemption, a testimony that no one is beyond the saving grace of the Lord. We are shown his dark side and what he symbolized before becoming “the Apostle of Grace.” He was a Benjamite of Hebrew ancestry. His parents were Pharisees—adhered strictly to the Law of Moses. Anything Greek would have been despised in Saul’s household.
Prior to encounter with Jesus, his life was marked by religious zeal, brutal violence, and the relentless persecution of followers of Christ.
Like lots of folks,– despite his education, position, and life’s work all mapped out, thinking he was doing God a favor, he was headed to hell in a hurry.
The ‘after conversion’ years of Paul’s life reveal the dramatic difference it made to him to have met the Saviour. He devoted every fiber of his life for Christ and the advancement of His kingdom.
Jesus never “wore off” him. Everything about him was new.
Jesus chose to speak His Gospel thru Paul’s lips. Lips that had no doubt cursed and blasphemed in the past, but now –and I mean now today– as well as within his lifetime, explain the freedom we have in Christ, and so much more! I’d go on, but (I’m running out of time available to write)
Do you see how beautiful? I love to gaze upon God’s handiwork. Its not all sunsets, etc.
Hi Dorothy,
I agree that Paul was an amazing person, and the hero of a great story
A brilliant man, a great leader, and a great writer
My problem with Paul is how he has been used to distort the truth
By the bad guys
I don’t think that the problem is Paul. I think that the problem is how WE have distorted what Paul actually said. Before continung to claim things about Paul that he did not write or believe, please do some research. Try Gager, Eisenbaum, Hegg, Nanos, etc. on my reading list. What you will find is that the Church has effectively read Paul as if he were Martin Luther in a Jewish robe. A very big mistake!
“My problem with Paul is how he has been used to distort the truth. ”
Exactly, you are right, Mike! Why the concentration on what he writes, or teaches, rather than on what has been written by Moshe, the prophets and others in the Tanakh (OT)? Of which had been subtracted from and added to by the churches, and Paul’s letters become top priority and importance, even above the Word Of YHWH, not that Paul’s letters were in error when they are not. It’s the church’s interpretation and doctrine that is in error.
Shalom!
SKIP: I don’t think that the problem is Paul. I think that the problem is how WE have distorted what Paul actually said.
MIKE: My problem with Paul is how he has been used to distort the truth
Hi Skip,
I agree with your statement above and have read your work on Paul
And I own and read Hegg’s book that you recommended long ago
More recently, I bought and read The First Paul by John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg
I was working on Crossman avenue in Sunnyvale at the time
According to Crossan and Borg, some of Paul.s outrageous passages are not authentic
They were inserted in the Bible by the bad guys
That is also possible, but I think most of the outrageous passages evaporate when they are read from a rabbinical point of view, as I tried to argue in Guardian Angel.
” I think most of the outrageous passages evaporate when they are read from a rabbinical point of view, as I tried to argue in Guardian Angel.”
1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 [Jews] who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men
Hi Skip,
As you know I find your arguments in Guardian Angel are very persuasive
But the attitude of the author of 1 Thessalonians 2:14 above, presumably Paul
Portrays a man capable of great hypocrisy and self delusion
Lots of translation bias in these. Let’s start by removing all the words that Paul would never have used in our senses of the terms (like “church”) and replacing them with first century terms (like quhelah), in particular, the generalization of “Jews.” I’ll have to let you do some work here as I am off to a meeting here in Jerusalem. Back later.
When did the cosmic, pre incarnate Yahshua Elohim own us before? Where were we, who were we, and what happened to us that He had to redeem us!? The forbidden fruit incident must be a metaphor for something very cosmic.
Your remarks confuse me today. If Yeshua offers himself in an act of atonement before the foundations of the world, that is in anticipation of the possibility of sinful disobedience. What makes you suggest that he has to “own” us, that we somehow have to exist beforehand, in order for this anticipation of need to occur?