Truly Complicated
Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, ‘Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, but a body Thou hast prepared for Me;’” Hebrews 10:5 NASB
World – So now we know that the word “body” is substituted for “ear” by this author. Why? Guthrie provides the following explanation: “the author appropriates the psalm as being explicitly fulfilled by Christ ‘when he comes into the world’ (10:5). This language is distinct from that used as an introductory formula in 1:6, where the author employs oikoumene (‘world’), which can be interpreted as a reference to the heavenly realm. The use of kosmos (‘world’), along with the context, suggests here that the incarnation is in mind (Lane 1991: 2:262-63). The psalm presents the posture of obedience and resolute intention to die on the cross, embraced by Christ in the incarnation.”[1]
Sounds good, doesn’t it? I have some problem with Guthrie’s suggestion that oikoumene can be interpreted as the heavenly realm since Kittel shows that this word means “the inhabited world” and its root, oiko, is always connected to something about a dwelling, but the idea that the author of Hebrews employs Psalm 40:6 in order to suggest a connection to the incarnation is appealing. Does this mean that the author of Hebrews explicitly tells us that Yeshua died on the cross for the forgiveness of sin?
Consider the context. The sacrifice of bulls and goats will not take away sins (verse 4). Yeshua comes into the world (kosmos) to fulfill the will of the Father (verses 5-7). Sacrifices and whole burnt offerings for sin are neither effective nor desired by God (verse 8). Yeshua’s sacrifice removes the need for sin sacrifices by the Levitical priesthood (verse 9). We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Yeshua HaMashiach once for all (verse 10).
Note Stern’s comment: “it is not necessary to suppose that this ‘taking away’ prohibits all animal sacrifices by the Levitical priesthood. The author’s point relates to only the sin offering . . . because the second sin offering system is effectual in a way that the first never was. . . The other animal sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood could be continued without eclipsing the preeminent role of Yeshua’s once-for-all sacrifice and eternal high-priesthood.”[2] Stern clears up the idea that all sacrifices are now unnecessary. We are talking about sacrifices for sin, and in particular, deliberate sin, the real problem for the Levitical system. But what about the cross? Does any of this demand that the sin sacrifice be limited to the execution on the cross? That issue turns on the meaning of the word kosmos. Guthrie’s suggestion about kosmos is, in fact, exactly backwards. The use of kosmos in the LXX includes the heavenly realm. Kittel says, “The adoption of the term kósmos by the LXX is an important event in its history, for this makes of it a biblical as well as a philosophical concept. The LXX uses kósmos for (a) the ‘host (of heaven)’ (cf. Gen. 2:1; Dt. 4:19), thus combining such ideas as order, adornment, world, heaven, and stars; (b) ‘adornment’ as the equivalent of various Hebrew terms, as in Ex. 33:5; Prov. 20:29; Is. 3:24; Nah. 2:10; (c) ‘adornment’ with no Hebrew equivalent, as in Is. 49:18; Prov. 28:17; Sir. 6:30, etc.; 1 Macc. 1:22; 2:11; (d) ‘universe,’ substituting it in such books as Wisdom and Maccabees for the older term ‘heaven and earth.’”[3] In other words, there is no linguistic reason to suggest that the sacrifice associated with Yeshua HaMashiach occurred on the cross. All this text says is that Yeshua entered the kosmos in bodily form in order to do the will of the Father. And since Christian theology teaches that Yeshua existed in bodily form as the Angel of the Lord in the Tanakh, there is little reason to suppose that He could not have accomplished the sacrifice for sin on the heavenly altar in bodily form.
What does the author of Hebrews want us to understand about all this? First, he wants us to know that Yeshua’s sacrifice removes the problem of sin and its defilement. Secondly, he wants us to know that Yeshua’s sacrifice is once-for-all (clearly it must also be applied to Abraham, Moses and the others). Thirdly, he wants us to know that Yeshua’s sacrifice replaces the temporary covering provided by the Levitical rituals on this issue. And finally, he wants us to know that we can be assured of all this because of the fact of his death and resurrection. But as far as I can see, none of this means that God waited until the crucifixion to provide atonement for sin.
Now you read the text. Read it like a first century Jew. See what you think?
Topical Index: Hebrews 10:5, world, oikoumene, kosmos, sacrifice, cross, incarnation, Psalm 40:6
[1] George Guthrie, “Hebrews” in Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament (eds. Beale and Carson), p. 977.
[2] David Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary, p. 704.
[3] Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (461–462). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.
And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness: and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creep upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:22
Skip, does the Hebrew text and Hebrew thinking tell US who The Lord God is talking to saying man is become one of US?
It seems to me a duality became triune from the very beginning?
You’re right. It SEEMS to be a duality. But that’s because we read the text with our own paradigm. Go read Nahum Sarna on the same texts and you will discover a perfectly rational explanation for plural nouns with singular verbs from a different paradigm. Then you can ask, “If the same text can be read in both these ways, what really is the motivation for seeing it one way or the other.” My son, Michael, wrote a paper about this which was posted here a few weeks ago.
Please provide the link to your son’s paper. Thx
You can find it easily on the web site by searching “Michael Moen”
Ray,
Rabbi Fohrman has an interesting take on this issue. He quotes Nachmanides in The Beast that Crouches at the Door (chapter 14; I have the digital book, so no page number, sry) as saying that YHWH was speaking to the earth or land. This sounds ridiculous at first, but after reading this chapter, I think the Ramban was on to something.
Basically, he asserts that it was only on the first day that God brought something from nothing and in the following days He used all the elements He had already created to form the land, waters, heavenly bodies, animals, and eventually man. The Genesis text agrees with this rendering. The eretz (land/earth) “brings forth” the living creatures. The Hebrew parent root for “brings forth” means to issue from or even excrement. In other words, it is produced. Adam also was formed from the dust/clay of the adamah or ground. (Gen. 2:7-8) So, while the earth is certainly not a god, YHWH did use the earth to create man. It took both eretz/adamah and YHWH — this was YHWH’s sovereign way.
The Ramban says, “You [land] and I [YHWH] together will make man. You will contribute the elements for the body, as you did for the animals, and I will contribute the soul”.
Rabbi Fohrman supposes that there is indeed a mysterious connection between humanity and land because of this. He speaks about the emotional bonds people have with the ground they call home —— they are willing to fight and die for it. He states that this “bond” is due to the fact that the earth (ground) is the source of our bodies and it is therefore very personal to us. He then suggests that we each long to return to BOTH the land and to God—- a dream only fully realized in death. Wow.
Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I found this explanation creative and thought provoking.
Just some food for thought.
K. Gallagher
K Gallgher-
I have heard this too, about us and the land/earth.
Shalom!
Thank you K. Gallagher for trying to answer my question. Logically, it may not be too far off the mark to say God was speaking to the earth. We look at the earth as dirt, but it provides us with what we need to live. By extension, this earth may be a living organism. Maybe this is why this view is in the Revelation;
And the nations were angry, and your wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that you should give reward to your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 11:18
Maybe God was talking to the Word as recorded by John?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
It is obvious God is not talking to the earth by this insight in Genesis 11;
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
I do Trust all things are possible with God. I also Trust all things work together for the good for those who love God since I have had so many personal evidences of this in my life. I have observed numerous times, something that appeared bad, wrong or against me at the moment, with the passage of Time, Trust and Patience in God, turned out to be a necessary prerequisite to a greater Blessing.
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:28
I am going to read it like a Jewish Bride-
I just purchased a “zerowater” filter, it is supposedly free of contaminates, and now I can choose what to put in the water before drinking it. Even though the first century Jew is the subject being addressed when the verbal scriptures were spoken, they were not the original audience of the message of salvation, including the separating of the sons of Adam, and redemption, atonement and who will ultimately become the pure and spotless Bride of Yeshua.
The ground zero water originates with Yeshua before the foundations of the world. As far as I can determine, you do not share this fundamental “truth”, even though the scriptures do substantiate this idea.
I see you pondering the forgiveness issue from every angle except this one. Because of your paradigm the door is locked shut. So from your perspective, where does the journey begin? Since we are following Jesus who is the way, how long have we been following Him?
This is the most important question because like Jesus, we must know where we are from to know where we are going. Since you know forgiveness was from the blood of the Lamb, before the foundation of the world, why would our redemption begin at some arbitrary point on the Timeline?
I am not trying to be difficult, just being honest and enjoying the ride with you and your readers.
Ps 103;2,3 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; – NKJ
Micah 7:18Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession?
Micah7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance?
Ps 78:38 But He, being compassionate, forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,
Num 14: 18 The LORD is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression
If YHVH describes Himself as :” forgiving iniquity, transgressions and sin”, then the question that forgiveness of sins starts at the cross seems to be irrelevant.
There was no sacrifice for deliberate sin before or after the cross. Forgiveness for deliberate sin was always only a matter between you and YHVH. He said Himself that He can forgive(even deliberate sin – like David?) and this is possible because of Yeshua’s sacrifice before the foundation. ?
Wasn’t the sacrificial system just part of worship and drawing near or approach to YHVH? And after the cross we can draw near to YHVH because of Yeshua’s resurrection and power over death ?
Is there evidence that the sin sacrifice should have/did stop after the cross (or only when the temple was detroyed)?
Another issue is the fact that Yeshua, who came in the flesh, could forgive sin ( even before the the cross) . this makes me think of the WWJD slogan – are we also suppose to forgive sin or just the sinless Son, who is ONe with His Father?
Hi, Skip! While I agree with this comment, I am also wondering — if it is the case (that Yeshua accomplished the sacrifice on the heavenly altar in bodily form), then why the cross also? What would be its purpose if the atonement had already been accomplished?
Please go back and read the posts beginning with John 3:14 (some time ago)
Found it — if it was “Threads Pt. 2” you were referring to. Which leads me to my next question. You comment that, “Yeshua, who was an expert in Torah, deliberately used a word with connections not only to divine exultation but also to the necessity of perfect compliance to YHWH’s instructions for the sin offering. Perhaps He is telling Nicodemus that He is both!” In John 3:14 says to Nicodemus, “that the Son of Man must be lifted up (“rum”)”. So, my question is – are you saying that the events of His fulfillment of both perfect compliance to instructions for the sin offering (teruma) and to divine exultation (rum) were split between two separate occasions — ‘the cross’ (which would be a future fulfillment of ‘rum’, as the events of the cross had not taken place when he spoke this to Nicodemus), and a ‘previous sacrifice on the heavenly altar in bodily form’ (a prior fulfillment of “teruma”)? Am I understanding that correctly?
Thank you, Luzette, you just said something so profound, the approach! Even though Yeshua was slain as the Lamb of God before the foundations of the world, and all He purchased for us was since then, accept the resurrection changed the approach because He tore the veil so now the Priesthood of believers has changed. With every dwelling place of God, from the tabernacle to the temple, things progressed to look more like the heavenly pattern. David was a King, but Melchezidek was a king and a priest! I wonder if this could have some significance to the “church of the firstborn” in Hebrews found in the new Jerusalem?
I think if Christians realized the resurrection was about establishing the Priesthood of believers and all the symbolism with the lampstand and showbread, keeping oil burning, all this is about the authority potentially changing, because Melchezidek had more authority than Abraham. The Law didn’t change at all, except that a much higher standard of Love was available through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Maybe I am wrong about the resurrection, since it does say the Lion will lay with the Lamb, this might mean the Lamb did resurrect even before the foundation of the world? Hmmm. Or maybe He resurrected as Jesus?
Jesus is God. The same today, yesterday and forever.
….before the universe was created, before time existed, before man was created, God knew that we (in Adam) would sin against our Creator. In His perfect wisdom and love, in eternity, He predetermined a plan so that we could receive a free gift of salvation.
The plan was for the Son of God to step down into history to provide the ultimate sacrifice—the sinless Son of God would suffer sin’s penalty of death, be raised from the dead, thus providing a way of salvation.
Hebrews 10:10 declares: “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
Once for all. Hebrews has lots of: one time, once, etc. look for them.
Slain before the foundation of the world was a pre-determined remedy for a fatal occurrence before there was a man, before a sin had been committed, or dirt to stand upon.
He did NOT die twice, once before and once at Calvary.*
He can say ‘slain before the foundation’ because His plans will be accomplished so it is as good as done. This should be a most comforting statement, that He’s “got you”.
NOTHING can surprise Him and nothing can disappoint Him. Take comfort from this.
*This also answers the question if anyone wonders if there is life on other planets. All creation fell. If there were human life on other planets, Jesus would have needed to go to each one and preach the Gospel and die there and die there and die there…. the wording ONCE is very important in learning lots of things. (I’ve had this question before, believe it or not.)
oops, missed closing a tag, didn’t mean for it to look all bold like this…..
It is difficult to read just one verse without reading the ones before and after, to understand what is being conveyed in this verse.
Surely, the sacrifices of bulls and animals cannot cleanse away our sins, it is an act of obedience to recognise at a cost, our transgressions, even though done annually, or even daily if there is no true repentance to turn away from transgressing against YHWH’s commandments, to walk right according to His ways, in the right spirit pleasing to HIM.
Whereas, Yahushua, died a horrible death as a sin offering, perhaps to show us what transgressions can do to us and anyone affected by those transgressions.
Some of us might not feel bad to see the animals sacrificed as a substitute for our transgressions, but some do! Yet, Israelites continue to disobey YHWH, just like us, even though Yahushua died a horrible death for us personally.
Verse 4 It is impossible for blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
YHWH looks for a willing sacrifice, One Who chose to be pure, unblemished, a pleasing sacrifice indeed, One Who willing does HIS will all the way to the end, even a torturous one. Thank You, ABBA.
“there is little reason to suppose that He could not have accomplished the sacrifice for sin on the heavenly altar in bodily form.”
Yahushua could have, (as Luzette said above), there was forgiveness of sin from the very beginning, it is enough to know also that He died for me! HalleluYAH!
I think you might be missing the point. Yeshua died a horrible death, but does that mean it was a sin offering? Even he points us toward something else. And if it were a sin offering, what of the requirement for a kosher slaughter which does NOT inflict a horrible death on the sacrifice?
I know, Yahushua died before the foundation of the world as our sin offering, (does seem confounding 🙂 ) but made a public show of Who He was/is by the horrible death on the stake, to fulfill the Scriptures -YeshaYahu 53:5-12, bearing our transgressions; He was crushed for our wickedness; He was actually an offering for our guilt. HE made us in right standing with ABBA on His part, we have still to do ours.
“none of this means that God waited until the crucifixion to provide atonement for sin.” NO!
Yahushua bore our sins through sufferings and obedience. 🙂
Shalom!
Yes, it would NOT be kosher, as a sin offering is swift, immediate death.
No, Yahushua is not a sin offering on the stake, for a certainty! Thanks Skip, for making this issue so clearly stipulated. 😉
Not Complicated.
“In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; (Ephesians 1.7)
In the beginning, God had a plan, a purpose and a promise. But when (and where) was the performing of tHis promise? At Calvary.
All of the sacrifices leading up to and before Calvary’s cross, all of the bulls, all of the goats, all of the turtledoves, – all of these were pictures, symbols and shadows of a Greater Sacrifice yet to be. The “Substance” of these shadows occurred at Calvary and it is the blood of Jesus (the) Christ, that cleanses (atones) from all sin. Past-present-future-(Hallelujah!)- “all” sin. God’s final word through the mouth of our Messiah? Stamp my sin debt “Paid in full.” Jesus (truly) paid it all, -(and yes!)- “all” to Him I owe..
What (now) belongs to those who are *in Christ*? If only we knew.
Yes, (still, to this very day..) ~ the word of the cross (the message of the cross- the logos of the cross) is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God ~
What is the message of the cross? What is the word (issuing forth down through the ages?) This event that occurred in the past but has continuing results in the future?
Friends, what is the gospel? (The “good news” of Christ?) *In Him* we have forgiveness of sins. What are the wages/consequences/results of sin? ~ The soul that sinneth- it shall die ~ Death is separation.
And on that cross, as Jesus died- the wrath of God was satisfied- for every sin on Him was laid.. *here* in the death of Christ, I live..
~ God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that *in Him* (in Yeshua HaMashiach -*in Jesus* the Anointed and appointed One,son of man and Son of the living God, the Lamb sent from God – we might become the righteousness of God ~ (2 Corinthians 5.21)
The cross was (and is!) the central event in all of history. I shall forever lift mine eyes to Calvary, to view the cross where my Jesus, died for me. The preaching, the proclamation of the cross is them who are perishing- foolishness! It is foolish (to some) that God would provide Himself the Lamb. Love must be foolish, for God did provide the Lamb, the Lamb of God who takes away (atones-cleanses and covers) the sins of the world. The sins of the Jews? Do Jewish people ever sin? The sins of the Gentiles? Do Gentiles ever sin? (“ALL” have sinned?..)
Who are the sinners? Who is a sinner? Who needs deliverance? Who needs salvation? Who needs love more abundant and free? I do, and I believe in a hill called Mt. Calvary.
Friends, Christ died. That much is history. Christ died for me; that is salvation! May I testify? May I tell someone, anyone who will hear, an old, old story? The never-ending story? This story is His-story. Full atonement, (yes, full atonement!) can it be? Hallelujah!- What a Savior! Atonement. At One-ment. Sin no longer separates! What was now concealed may be revealed. Now longer does Adam need to hide, He may now walk in the light! Light is that which reveals. Darkness conceals and clouds. Light reveals and clarifies. ~ (and if we walk in the light..)
So many questions are fully answered at the tslav of Yeshua- the execution stake, the cross. Who? What? Where? When? and Why? Ask. Ask and you will receive. Seek and you will find. Knock and it shall be opened (revealed) unto you!
God initiated this relationship. Adam was busy “attempting” to hide himself, and it was God who provided for Adam an “atonement” (a covering) of animal skins. Was this the skin of a lamb? Nevertheless, blood was shed- even in Eden, a perfect place, a paradise. God was (and is!-and forever will remain) our Hunter/Lover, because God so loved (loves) the world.., God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.., but in every relationship, there is One who initiates and one who responds.. and today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your heart. God always speaks (constantly) to those who are able to listen. ~ Faith (which pleases God) comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God ~ I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for He will speak peace unto His people, and to His saints: but let them not turn again to folly (“kasal”- to be or become stupid). What, is the wiser choice than obedience to our Father, and what is more stupid, than to sin? Do we really need an 11th commandment? Don’t be stupid (sheeple!).
“Behold” (stare at this a good long while until it finally sinks in) ~ to obey is better than sacrifice and to hearken (to shema!) than the fat of rams! ~ (1 Samuel 15.22)
What is the “choice” (better) choice? Ask Adam. Ask Abraham. Ask ADONAI. Amein!