Some Surprises: Dwight Pryor on Paul

I recently listened to a lecture series by the late Dwight Pryor entitled Paul, The Law and the Church.  Knowing that Pryor was the founder of The Center for Judaic Christian Studies, I was anticipating an insightful investigation of the Jewish character of Paul’s life and work.  But the longer I listened, the more I realized that Pryor’s view, in spite of his historical recognition of the Jewish context of Scripture, was still firmly entrenched in the Greek-Christian paradigm.  I was shocked when Pryor suggested that Paul was the bridge between Judaism and the Church, that Paul advocated the abolition of circumcision and the dietary regulations of Torah for both Jews and Gentiles under the “new covenant,” that Paul claimed that the ritual laws of Jewish identification no longer apply to either Jew or Gentile and that the covenant obligations of Israel have been done away with in the death and resurrection of Yeshua.  This is replacement theology.  It might be disguised in a form that advocates the Jewish character of Paul, but it is still the idea that Paul radically departed from his past, that he converted to the Christian faith and that Torah was a temporary identification marker of Jewish ethnicity.  For someone who studied with David Flusser and who knew Marvin Wilson, I found Pryor’s position astounding, confused and ultimately incompatible with Scriptural evidence.  It might be Hebraic in its language, but it is thoroughly Greek in its paradigm approach.

How could this have happened?

It seems to me that Pryor’s fundamental error comes in his assessment of Galatians.  His exegesis of this letter sets the stage for his assertions about Paul’s departure from Judaism and conversion to Christianity.  Pryor’s error begins with his belief that Paul’s opponents in the letter to the Galatians were fellow Jewish Messianic believers.  Once Pryor assumes this to be the case, he must conclude that Paul is driving a wedge between himself and those who are followers of Yeshua as the Messiah but continue to hold on to Jewish Torah observance.  This means that Pryor must treat Paul in opposition to the claims, not of non-Messianic Jews who were speaking from the position of accepted conditions of proselytizing, but rather to the claims of Jews who were also followers of Yeshua.  Pryor’s view forces us to think that Paul distinguishes himself from others within the Body on the basis of the acceptance or rejection of Torah, and Pryor concludes that the only possible distinction given this dichotomy is that Paul rejected Torah observance.  In other words, Pryor sees a clear distinction between the Christian church for the Gentiles and the Jewish congregation of Israel.  In his view, Paul opens the door to the Gentiles by removing the obstacle of Torah obedience and by doing this he insists that neither Jew nor Gentile is required to uphold the “ritual laws” of Torah in this new faith.

But all of this falls apart if we recognize that Paul’s opponents were not fellow Messianic believers but rather Jews who viewed the common expectations for proselytes as the only acceptable means for entering into fellowship with YHWH.  Mark Nanos has demonstrated that the Jews Paul opposes were the ones who taught that no one could truly worship YHWH or become part of His kingdom unless that person first became a Jew.  In the first century, in fact from the second century BCE, there was a standard procedure for a Gentile to become a Jew and enter into full fellowship with God’s people.  That procedure included circumcision and Torah obedience.  When Jews of this persuasion came to Galatia and taught the Gentile converts in that synagogue that they needed to become Jewish in order to enjoy the full rights of God-fearers, Paul objected.  But we cannot conclude that Paul objected to the obligations of Torah.  We can only conclude that Paul objected to the claim that God’s grace was available only to those who first became or already were Jewish.  In other words, the argument of Galatians is not about who must keep Torah.  It is about who will enter into fellowship with the Father and His children.  Paul teaches that all who come into God’s presence through grace are accepted.  The Jewish opponents taught that only those who were Jewish were accepted.  Paul opposed this typical ethnic qualification.  But once that issue is settled, it does not follow that Torah no longer applies.  It simply means that Torah is not, and never was, the means by which God’s grace is received.

Pryor’s error forces him to distinguish between two alternatives that in fact are not part of the Galatians debate.  He constructs an artificial and false dichotomy:  law or grace, or as he puts it, “law or gospel.”  For Pryor, this dichotomy is about salvation, acceptance into the community of God.  Therefore, Pryor views Jewish identification markers like Torah as impediments to God’s offer of grace.  Accordingly, those markers must be removed.

But the argument in Galatians is not about law or grace.  The argument is about unrestricted grace or limited grace.  Law has nothing to do with it.  Everyone knew that God saved by grace, not by law.  Rabbinic evidence from the second century BCE on clearly shows that the believing Jewish community recognized grace as God’s generous offer for fellowship.  But the Jews who opposed Paul believed that a man must first be acceptable in order to experience grace and that acceptability depended on being Jewish.  Paul says “No!”  Grace is open to all, not just to those who are ethnically or artificially Jewish.  But Torah is another matter all together.

As a result of this confusion, Pryor is led down the inevitable path of the separation of the role of law from the action of grace.  Therefore, he claims that the three specific demarcations of Jews during the Roman Empire, that is, kashrut,  circumcision and Torah ritual observance, have no place in the new covenant because in the new covenant the only demarcation is “the presence of God with the believer.”  Torah is to be “esteemed” but it is only applied “via the gospel.”  In this way, Pryor claims that Paul removed the “boundary markers” of Jewish identity so that Gentiles were no longer barred from entry into the Kingdom.  Pryor sees the law as “anticipatory,” foreshadowing the greater reality of “Jesus and the community.” Pryor says, “Paul lives between his Jewish past and the Gentile future of the church.”  According to Pryor, the law of Moses kept the Gentiles out of fellowship and it took Jesus to tear down this inappropriate barrier.  With the removal of Torah, what counts in the community is “faith acting in love,” not ritual observance of an outmoded code.  The law did its work sending us to Christ.  Now it is finished.

Pryor’s argument is filled with mistakes, exegetical assumptions and contradiction with other scriptural passages.  Yes, it fits the accepted replacement view, even as it offers Hebraic condolences, but it does not advance the discussion nor clarify the real issue.  Every scholar knows that Paul continued to practice Jewish ritual such as Nazarite vows and that Paul claimed a lifetime of Torah obedience.  How does Pryor account for this apparent anomaly?  Pryor suggests that the answer is found in Paul’s comment, “a Jew to the Jews, a Gentile to the Gentiles.”  In other words, Paul was duplicitous.  He acted like a Jew among the Jews even though he knew that none of the rituals mattered and he acted like a Gentile among the Gentiles because this was the true character of his converted heart.

Can anyone imagine that Paul represented himself in this light unless we come to the text with a “conversion” mentality?  Paul’s life and his own words tell a different story if they are taken at face value.  Pryor’s explanation requires us to read behind Paul’s words to see a man who is willing to portray himself according to his surroundings.  This hardly seems like the character of the one Luke writes about.  Pryor’s “solution” means Paul deliberately stretches the truth.  But for what reason?  To fool his Jewish brothers into the faith?

Let’s examine some of Pryor’s other claims in these lectures.  Pryor says that Judaism was “missionary-minded” during this period.  But the historical record does not support this.  Pagans did convert to Judaism but they did so on the basis of self-interest in the Jewish way of life.  Pagans of this period saw Judaism as a philosophy, not a religion.  In fact, the concept “religion” doesn’t even exist until after the formation of the Christian church some 300 years later.  Furthermore, Pryor continually refers to the converts from paganism as “Gentile Christians.”  This is also an anachronism.  Neither Paul nor any of the apostles nor anyone within the Body in the first century referred to themselves as “Christian.”  That appellation did not come into existence as a positive identifying marker until the second century CE.  Evidence from this period in the Roman Empire demonstrates that pagan conversions to the Jewish way of living were not conversions to Judaism but rather adoptions of the practices of the Jews in one form or another.  And the evidence is also clear that the Jews did not typically welcome such conversion and hardly ever sought them.  There were simply no Jewish “missionaries.”

Pryor’s false differentiation forces him to conclude that the Torah does not apply to either Jew or Gentile after the death of Yeshua.  Instead, the “new covenant community” acts on the basis of love.  But this defies all of what we know about the men recounted in the Scriptures and the historical evidence that Messianic communities continued to be Torah observant into the fourth century CE.  They were eliminated not by choice but rather by compulsion under the auspices of the Christian Church backed by Roman authority.  Pryor’s claim is paradigmatically based, not exegetical or historical.

This brings up another important historical fact.  The evidence shows that in an effort to identify itself as distinct from Jewish practice and to attract converts from paganism, it was Christianity that abolished the three practices of the Jews that were antithetical to the Roman ideals.  Those three practices were circumcision, eating pork and Sabbath rest.  In other words, to be Jewish in the Roman world meant to be circumcised, to follow the dietary laws and to rest on the Sabbath.  If Christianity, as conceived by the early church fathers of the second and third centuries CE, was to be seen as a distinct practice, it could not follow these Jewish patterns.  It had to be different.  Furthermore, since the Jewish way of life remained a viable and active choice for pagans, Christianity had to offer “conversion” in an easier, more Roman way.  The Roman ideals already considered circumcision a barbaric practice (after all, who would dare deliberately cut the penis).  They considered eating pork a typical part of the Roman diet.  And they had no patience for a group of people who did not work on Saturday.  The evidence suggests that the Christian church accommodated Roman expectations in an effort to increase its converts.  Pryor’s claim that Paul abolished these Jewish practices is, in fact, an historical error, viewing the church’s accommodation to the Roman way as Pauline and anachronistically making Paul the equivalent of Justin Martyr or Marcion.

Pryor’s assertion that Torah has been replaced by “faith acting in love” leaves him with an impossible ethical formula.  What does “faith acting in love” really mean?  Does it mean that I can choose whatever action I believe is loving?  Does it mean that I am free to decide for myself, with the prompting of the Spirit of course, to do what I wish in terms of worship, identification, charity, community responsibility, etc.?  This is the ethical dilemma of all replacement theology.  How do I know what to do?  Do I wait for the Spirit’s direction – and end up with 32,000 distinct denominations?  Am I the sole arbiter of proper conduct?  Once we abandon a revealed code of conduct, we become the authors of our own behavioral code.  How has that worked for the church?  Eighty million dead as a result of spiritual guidance during the Crusades, the Inquisition and the pogroms.  Pryor’s answer is no answer at all.  It is the hope that men will somehow know what is right.  It is Kant’s “religion by reason alone.”

Pryor certainly must recognize the tenuous nature of his solution, so he acknowledges that the Christian community must “esteem” the Torah.  But what does that mean when we explicitly set it aside as a code of conduct.  It means that we acknowledge its historical usefulness just as we acknowledge the Wright brothers historical usefulness in flight.  But we don’t fly on bi-planes anymore, do we?  So Pryor wants to hang on to the Commandments (at least some of them) but he can’t compel us to keep them because that would be a return to those things that barred the Gentiles (in his view).  He is left with nothing to stand on except his plea for the intervention of the Spirit.  And that is ethics on air, as any good historian can demonstrate.

In the end, Pryor is no different than Harnack , Jeremias, Luther or Calvin.  He might wish to be more Hebraic.  He might use more Hebrew terms.  But in the end, he has cast aside the authority of the revelation of God to Moses on Sinai and in so doing cast himself, and the Church, on the waters of epistemological self-authentication.  In the end, his view of Paul says exactly the opposite of what Paul claims about himself.  Unfortunately, it seems that Pryor is still Greek under the skin.

 

 

 

 

 

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Kees Brakshoofden

This is exactly the problem I meet when discussing the ‘law’ with people in my former congregation. They do not understand one word of Galatians. This sounds harsh, but is true. This letter proves to be the touchstone for understanding the Hebraic roots of our faith or being part of a religious system. I advise everyone to study Avi Ben Mordechais ‘Galatians’. Allthough I do not agree with him in everything, you will get a much better understanding of what this letter is all about. Mind you: it is not a book you can read on a rainy Sunday afternoon: you must be prepared to study!

That love took the place of Tora is simply impossible, for Tora IS love : 1 John 5:3 – For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. Our Lord Yeshua defines it the same way:
Matt.22:37-40
Thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the profets.

There is no better résumé of Tora than this one. But it’s still a résumé. For the specifics: see Tora!

Rick Spurlock

Well said, Skip. I have read various articles by Dwight Pryor over the past 15 years. While I appreciated the start to what he has said, I always understood that he was not truly embracing what he appeared to be.

Perhaps it is telling that the majority of the articles I read by Dwight Pryor were in FFOZ’s various publications. Like Pryor, they start out saying one thing, and in the end all that remains is a contorted philosophy/theology, that requires detailed and labyrinth explanations as to why some followers need not follow some very clear commands of Scripture.

It is very sad that revelation does not always result in requisite action. May we all be forewarned of that trap, and determine act unequivocally to everything HaShem reveals. That is simple faith.

Matt Woodward

Sticks and stones…
It is one thing to be critical of a teaching but it is another to disparage someone. I also learned from my teachers that context is very important. Sometimes we confuse context with just applying that to scripture but not to the context of the current teacher of scripture. Context, context, context my professor would say. Who is Dwight Pryor? How does he live? If your assertion above is correct then he too would have no place for Torah in his life. But since i knew him personally, i wonder, why then did he follow the dietary laws? At any teaching conference he held, why would he not serve pork or shellfish to any of those attending? Why did he celebrate the Biblical festivals and not the christian? Why did he teach the necessity of doing such things to those he taught? You also say he was a “replacement theology”guy, yet from many of his other teachings he strongly goes against such teachings including those of NT Wright? Why would Pryor teach such things about discipleship being not a student but an exact replication of the Jewish Rabbi yet not expect the disciple to be just like his rabbi? Could it be that Pryor was teaching in a way in his time (context, context, context) to combat another group of people. You have to remember, when Dwight started teaching these things in the USA, he was less than the minority. Also Dwight’s teaching style was one that was gentle for the first time hearer of such Hebraic concepts and ideas. He had a genuine heart for the christian church to to hear and turn to the Jewish Jesus and its Jewish message. But he also understood the anti-semitism that was inherent in the church. His style of teaching was of such to combat that anti-semitism without turning the hearer away from his teaching. ALSO, there were others who believed in One Torah theology which Dwight then had to defend against as well. I would encourage, please don’t confuse Dwight’s style of teaching with his theology based on one teaching you listened to. I can’t tell you how many times i have had to defend Skip because his emails sound like nails on a chalk board or sandpaper on the skin. Dwight taught that Yeshua was fully Jewish, Fully torah observant as were ALL of his disciples and apostles. But rather than saying that all gentiles must immediately follow TORAH upon revelation, he taught that Torah was an invitation for all Gentiles to follow. His teaching style was invitation not forced upon. His understanding of Acts 15 was that Gentiles would enter the Synagogue and learn to Torah every week. They would learn over a lifetime how to apply. He also believed, as FFOZ that Gentiles would not be converts and proselytes to Judaism but would still hold onto there ethnicity as Gentiles. Dwight would often say, “many people today ask if Jesus were to come back who’s church would he go to, But if Yeshua were to come back today, he wouldn’t be at a church on sunday, He would be in Synagogue on Saturday”. That statement alone tells us a lot about his view of Yeshua and Torah.

Gabe

Good points. Time to assimilate into a new culture is absolutely necessary, and as a believing body we need to remember that we ‘were once slaves in Egypt’, but would this mean that Dr. Pryor would be fine with church members saying they would NEVER accept some Torah teachings based on their Gentile-ism?

Gabe

I’m hesitant to commit to the $16 and the time to listen to them. However, if I understand the debate correctly – it basically comes down to whether Dr. Pryor taught a two-Torah understanding of Paul?

Cheryl Pope

Matt, thank you for coming to the defense of the teaching of Dwight Pryor and may his memory continue to be a blessing. He became a mentor to me in 1996 and I have attended his Haverim workshops and I have since continued to listen and study his teaching from a Hebraic perspective since first introduced. He lead me into a deeper understanding of God as a loving Father which brought much healing to my soul and drew me closer to the heart of Yeshua/Jesus. I have listened to the specific study titled Paul, the Law and the Church and never felt that he was giving the message that Mr. Moen suggested. I have been reading much of Skip Moen’s stuff as sent from a friend and have really appreciated his thoughts but by his seeming attack and, in my opinion, wrongful and harsh critique of this most honorable, godly and influential man, I will be much more critical of Mr. Moen’s posts from now on. I never heard Dwight Pryor speak disrespectfully of those who he opposed theologically but only taught the Word/Torah as he humbly and reverently studied and understood and even spoke of how much he continued to learn as he studied. I believe others could learn much from this man’s life and work. I believe he represented Jesus/Yeshua better than any teacher I have ever studied under. Please, I mean all due respect to all who have posted on this thread that I stumbled across. I consider myself in kindergarten compared to most all here but I was hurt to hear Dwight Pryor’s work diminished and discredited so. Thank you.

Sharon Spicka

I appreciate the viewpoint of someone who knew Dwight Pryor. The thing we forget is that the “Jewish piece” is slowly unfolding and that none of us are 100% accurate.

Sharon Spicka

I would like to add that I think Matt Woodward’s comments bring balance because he knew the man.

Ray Joseph Cormier

Skip, I’ll have to read this several times to discern the nuances. This brings this site to a whole new level of discussion and discovery. In the 1st reading of this, I see and understand what Pryor is saying as you present him in such an objective way, notwithstanding the fundamental differences in perception, Faith and belief.

Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land:
But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it.

How can we, with our limited and partial knowledge, reason with an Eternal God who was the Garden, in Babel, in Egypt with Joseph and Moses, and still with those individuals who believe in Faith Today?

God is God of the Jews, Arabs, Iranians, Russians, Chinese, Americans and all other humans on this planet even if they don’t believe it. At least my Faith is in God being that Great. The Heavens are my throne and the earth is my foot stool. Where is the House you build for me? And where is the Place of My Rest?

It is a wonder to me, with Empires and Nations appearing and disappearing in this world the past 4000 years, I see Almighty God kept his promise to Abraham he would be Father to many Nations.

While Abraham was a wealthy and powerful man in his Time, he never saw the reality of that promise in his lifetime and still he kept Faith with God.

It is our Generation, having the benefit of Retrospect, can see in this real material world, the State of Israel, along with the Christian and Islamic Nations, as evidence and proof the Promises of God can be Trusted in this material/Spiritual world.

Rein de Wit

“The argument is about unrestricted grace or limited grace.” – I really like that…….

Prior should read Tim Hegg’s book “Paul the Letter Writer”

HSb

A useful passage to review is found in Acts 21:20-24. We find the apostles glorifying God for the results among the Gentiles, then indicating that multiple thousands of Jews are also believers, all “zealous for the Law”. “They have been told about you (Paul), that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs” A plan is now presented involving Paul paying the expenses for four men, purifying himself along with them in the Temple. “All will know that there is nothing to these things which have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law”. Paul agrees with the plan.
Notice what is said (and what has not been said). No one accuses Paul of actually saying these things that are attributed to him! In other words the rumors are false. Paul is not being “dressed down” or reprimanded. James, Peter and John know exactly what Paul is sharing. They have shaken hands on this (according to Galatians 2). Yet it appears from what I have just read that Dwight Pryor would agree with the angry Jews. In that case Paul would have been sanctioned/disciplined…but he was not!! Instead he is simply told to demonstrate that he walks according to the Law. Paul agrees. Does that make him…duplicitous? He obviously supports the idea and acts on it. The fact that there is a riot in the temple precincts which results in his arrest is not his fault. So if the apostles support Paul , and he supports them….. what room is left for Replacement Theology?

Ester

HSb-Well said!I agree! Shalom!

Gabe

Excellent point. If Paul’s opponents accused him of teaching against the law, what does that say about most modern views of what Paul taught — they are in the camp of his OPPONENTS. This is sooo relevant to the discussion, thanks for the clarity.

John Lightfoot

Well, this will be coming from about a 3rd grade level compared to the knowledge most of the readers here seem to possess, but I felt moved to comment on this writing. I was also moved to read again the Book of John, paying close attention to the words Jesus spoke. It seems that of the 32,000 denominations (is this number for real?) that some place more emphasis on Mary, Paul, Timothy, or on commentaries written by past and modern day theologians, than they do on the teachings of Jesus himself. In John 15:25, He called it “their Law” or the Law of them. Why not just the Law? In several other versus in John, Jesus refers to it as “your” Law. I cannot see where Jesus ever directly claims it as His Law.

When I consider context, in the Book of John, Jesus hammers home the main point that He is the way, the truth and the life. Through 21 chapters, I do not find where He places any emphasis on Torah obediance. So I wonder if some have lost sight of the forest for the trees. As for being guided by the Spirit; that is what the Master said in John 16:13, so how is that manifested in our daily lives? Does the Spirit guide us back to Torah? If yes, why did He come, when all we had to do was pick up the book and read the rules?

Donna

Go online to World Christian Encyclopedia which says there are more than 33,000 Christian denominations. Do these Christians follow 1 John 2:6, “The one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked”?

HSB

Pew Forum from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC)
at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass.
CSGC has obtained denominational membership
information from about 41,000 organizations worldwide.

Donna

The Jewish Encyclopedia states that Yeshua was “scrupulous in keeping the whole Law.” From the book of Matthew it describes a life of devotion to Torah:
“… restricted his attention and that of his followers to the lost sons of Israel (vii. 24). He particularly forbade his disciples to seek heathens and Samaritans (x. 5), and for the same reason at first refused to heal the Syrophoenician woman (vii. 24). His choice of twelve apostles had distinct reference to the tribes of Israel (iii. 13-16). He regarded dogs and swine as unholy (Matt. vii. 6). His special prayer is merely a shortened form of the third, fifth, sixth, ninth, and fifteenth of the Eighteen Benedictions (see Lord’s Prayer). Jesus wore the Ẓitẓit (Matt. ix. 20); he went out of his way to pay the Temple tax of two drachmas (ib. xvii. 24-27); and his disciples offered sacrifice (ib. v. 23-24). In the Sermon on the Mount he expressly declared that he had come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it (ib. v. 17, quoted in Shab. 116b), and that not a jot or tittle of the Law should ever pass away (ib. v. 18; comp. Luke xvi. 17). It would even appear that later tradition regarded him as scrupulous in keeping the whole Law (comp. John viii. 46).” (Jesus of Nazareth)

HSB

… and as the “Word of God” is He also not the actual author of Torah?

Ester

Donna- Amein! That is clearly so 🙂
Such who have this understanding is so blessed! Shalom!

Pam

Hi John, just a quick note. The phrase “their law” refers to the extra biblical laws that we now recognize as the Rabbinic writings and NOT I REPEAT NOT the Torah. Jesus is the author of the Torah which is His law if you believe He is God incarnate.

Gabe

Every once in a while I ask, “Why is there no quote where Jesus says, ‘Listen, the Torah will ALWAYS be our guide, I just have an issue with how you are interpreting it!!'”

But,…

1. There ARE verses where Jesus and Paul say almost the exactly that – but we have typically interpreted them away, or ignored them altogether. There are many examples, but what about “not one jot or tittle” was to pass away from the law, and Yeshua explicitly saying that the Sabbath was “made for” us?

2. Unless there is a dispute about something, it is rarely emphasized.

3. Jesus openly says that some of his teachings are not overtly understood.

Rob

Here is where I would appreciate a little clarification.

Based on your comment “And what do you do with Paul’s explicit claim that he has followed Torah ALL of his life, including the traditions of the Jewish people?” (June 30, 8:32pm)

Do you think that Paul would place the teachings of Torah above the leading of the Holy Spirit? Is there a “stopping” point for Torah and a “starting” point for the Spirit? Can the two be at odds with each other? Thx.

Rein de Wit

I would like to direct you to this note on the translation by Daniel Gregg: http://www.torahtimes.org/NewTranslation/43_john/joh15_25a_note.html

The word “their” is not in the oldest available manuscript that we have. As Daniel points out, it would also deny that Yeshua Himself is the giver of the Torah. [He is the Angel of the Presence who delivered the Torah to Moses]

Gabe

Thanks! I spent some time there, and bookmarked the page.

Jill

You sum up why most Christian churches struggle in that they almost all have nothing firm on which to base anything that they promote. They all promote something, and what they promote usually isn’t Biblical. I have found that if you try to take what a congregation preaches to its logical conclusion they will reject you for it. I have also found that most of the people that I know that go to a church aren’t interested so much in the truth as they are in forgiveness for what they know is behavior in congruent with holiness, an excuse to justify bad behavior morally and ethically. Just my two cents

Pam

As good as the widows mite IMO Jill. 🙂

Dorothy

J. Lightfoot — clap, clap, clap — way advanced from elementary levels! 3rd heaven view, I’d say!

WHY He came made a great study.

1. He came to fulfill prophecy.
“Christ has become a servant . . . to confirm the promises given to the fathers” (Rom. 15:8).

2. He came to seek the lost.
“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:10).

3. He came to save.
“For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost” (Matt. 18:11).

4. He came to serve.
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve” (Mark 10:45).

5. He came to give His life as a ransom.
“Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matt. 20:28).

6. He came that men might have life more abundant.
“I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly” (John 10:10).

7. He came to reveal the Father.
“Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him” (Matt. 11:27). “Jesus said to him, ‘He who has seen Me has seen the Father’” (John 14:9).

8. He came to do the will of God.
“Then He added, ‘Look, I have come to do Your will’” (Heb. 10:9).

9. He came to preach.
“But He said to them, ‘I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose’” (Luke 4:43).

10. He came to bring fire.
“I have come to bring fire to the earth” (Luke 12:49).
“He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire . . . He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matt. 3:11-12).

11. He came to bring judgment.
“And Jesus said, ‘For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind’” (John 9:39).
Note with this verse Luke 12:14, John 3:17, and John 8:15 which says: “I judge no man.”

12. He came to be king.
“Therefore Pilate said to Him, ‘So You are a king?’ Jesus answered, ‘You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world’” (John 18:37).

13. He came to bear witness to the truth.
“For this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice” (John 18:37).

14. He came to save sinners.
“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (I Tim. 1:15).

15. He came into the world to be a faithful high priest.
“That He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God” (Heb. 2:17).

16. He came to put away sin.
“Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Heb. 9:26).
“You know that He appeared in order to take away sins” (I John 3:5).
“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).
Compare John 1:35, Leviticus 16:20-22, Isaiah 53:6, II Corinthians 5:21.

17. He came to destroy the works of the devil.
“The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil” (I John 3:8).
“Only as a human being could He die, and only by dying could He break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death” (Hebrews 2:14).
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” (John 12:31).
“For the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me” (John 14:30).

18. He came to send a sword.
“Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! No, I came to bring a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Your enemies will be right in your own household” (Matt. 10:34-36).

19. He came to bear our sins. (for we owed a debt we could not pay)
“He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross” (I Peter 2:24).
“Christ . . . having been offered once to bear the sins of many” (Heb. 9:28).

20. He came to provide a pattern of holy living.
“Since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps” (I Pet. 2:21).
“Learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart” (Matt. 11:29).

CAROL MATTICE

HI DOROTHY… I thank you for this lengthy read. I LOVE IT because I LOVE HIM.
It is all about HIM !

K. Gallagher

John Lightfoot,

You said, “Jesus hammers home the main point that He is the way, the truth and the life”. This is very true! But where did the concepts of the “way”, the “truth”, and the “life” come from? Each of these notions are fully developed and defined in the dictionary to the Book of John and the entire New Testament —- the Tanakh or O.T.

If we are fully versed in the Tanakh (as the Jew’s in the 1st century would have been), then the statements that Yeshua (Jesus) makes about Himself being the way, the truth, and the life have profound implications. These were not NEW ideas; instead they are ancient, having been built on a very firm foundation.

What Yeshua was implying is that He walked according to the clearly defined WAY, TRUTH, and LIFE. In doing so, He is the very essence of these concepts. And if we follow Him and walk as He walked, then we too will reflect the way, the truth, and the life.

Moreover, He describes Himself as the “Light of the World”. Again, if we allow the dictionary to the New Testament, the Tanakh, to define what LIGHT is, then and only then will we have a proper understanding of His LIGHT. By following Him, we then also become that light!

I highly suggest that you do a concordance search on the words way, truth, life, word, and light. What it reveals is that these words are often equivalent expressions in Scripture. It would have been unthinkable to Yeshua or any of the disciples or apostles to remove what the foundation (O.T.) had already revealed about these concepts. After all, the Tanakh (O.T.) was the ONLY Bible available to them.

Here are some examples I quickly looked up in my e-sword program. I hope this helps.

THE WAY:

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his WAY upon the earth.

Ex. 18:20 then teach them the statutes and the laws (Torah), and make known to them the WAY in which they are to walk and the work they are to do.

Dt. 10:12-13 “Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His WAYS and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, (13) and to keep the LORD’S commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today for your good? (See also Jos. 22:5)

1Ki 2:3 “Keep the charge of the LORD your God, to walk in His WAYS, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn,

Ps. 119:1 a Aleph. How blessed are those whose WAY is blameless, Who walk in the law (Torah) of the LORD.

Ps. 119:29-32 Remove from me the WAY of lying: and grant me thy law (Torah) graciously. (30) I have chosen the WAY of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me. (31) I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame. (32) I will run the WAY of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching is light; And reproofs for discipline are the WAY of life

Is. 2:3 And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His WAYS And that we may walk in His paths.” For the law (Torah) will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the WAY which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The TRUTH:

Ps. 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law (Torah) is the TRUTH.

Ps. 119:151-152 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are TRUTH. (152) Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them forever.

Mal. 2:6 The law of TRUTH was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy TRUTH: thy word is truth.

2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of TRUTH shall be evil spoken of.

The LIFE:

Dt. 32:46-47 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. (47) For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your LIFE: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

Ps. 119:92-93 If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction. (93) I will never forget your precepts, for by them you have given me LIFE.

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives LIFE; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are LIFE.

Act 2:28 ‘YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’ (See Ps. 16:11)

Brad Scott says, “The concept of life in Hebraic thought is not some symbolic utopia. When Yeshua‘ said that He came to give us life and to give it more abundantly, He was referring to the power of His words when put into action. If, as Christians, we really do believe that Yeshua‘ is ’Elohiym, then we have to come to terms with the fact that Yeshua‘’s words are ’Elohiym’s words, and Yeshua‘ the Mashiach spoke according to the law and the testimony.” http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson5.ht

Context is very important. We cannot throw out the Tanakh (O.T.) context from which Yeshua and all the N.T. authors wrote. If Yeshua set the example for how I am to live and walk (the Torah) then that is the WAY I desire to live. I do this not for the purpose of salvation, but because I love Him.

The same John you mention also penned these words:

1Jn 2:3-7 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. (4) The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (5) but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (6) the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. (7) Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

1Jn 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. (3) For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Shalom,
K.Gallagher

Ester

Hi K.Gallagher, what a response. Thank you for the zeal you have in writing this. 🙂
I appreciate it. Shalom!

Pam

So if that’s how you REALLY FEEL about Dwight Pryor what do you think about Ralph Messer? Skip there’s no end to these guys. It’s so important to be a good Berean and make sure we aren’t just jumping from one foolishness into another.

Gabe

Thanks Skip. For many of us leaving the old paradigm there are now many other errors available to fall into – so I appreciate the quality of analysis here.

Ester

Gabe- so true.
Just as there are SO many Christian denominations, there are as many Messianic Torah congregations sprouting everywhere. And these are not exactly the ones who have broken away from those denominations, as they bring in their baggage from where they came out from.
These congregations, I have been to a few, are such a mixture of Christianity and Torah observant-folks.
Some continue to have “communion” on Shabbats, lighting candles before, saying Hebrew prayers, and
then back to a single person standing in the pulpit giving his sermon on ‘Love’ and ‘forgiveness’, no emphasis on Torah reading and seeking understanding of what they believe.

———————-
In all simplicity, here are a few questions to those who are seeking-

* Who is Yeshua? The Son, the Meshiach sent by the Father.

* Is He an obedient Son? Yes, HE did what ever ABBA told Him to.

* Would Yeshua, the Rock of our salvation, teach otherwise? NO, definitely NOT!

*Did Yeshua change? NO, HE never changes, He never never changes. HE is the same today and forever more! HalleluYAH!

*So, who changed? ABBA YHWH, Who gave the law and the commandments? ONE Torah to all, to the home born and to the stranger that sojourns among you-Exo 12:49

*Who changed the Scriptures? The adversary of our beings-soul and spirit? Beware of its wiles!

Gabe

Yes – I just know I need more than internet fellowship in order to keep maturing. I am praying for like-minded believers here in the Inland Empire in Southern California, or opportunity to move.

Ester

One more question I have left out-

*Who changed the name of Yeshua to Jesus? For what purpose?

Shalom.

Dorothy

Since I see this is sincerely important to you, I will try to answer, — if you will try to see what I am saying.
I am NOT offering this as an argument, because of wanting to be at odds with you, nor selfishly ‘triumph’, or any such thing as that.
Hoping you can give me the benefit of the doubt, I proceed.

Also, I won’t answer any other answer than this, no matter how many responses with opposing views.
And that is simply because after my say, I have no more to offer or say. So why spend all day repeating my viewpoint? I see no reason to do so. If nobody’s mind is changed, that is still well and good, be it as it may.

So, with all disclaimers upfront, I begin:

I agree with you in that you are correct in saying Yeshua is the Hebrew name for the Lord.
It means “Yahweh [the Lord] is Salvation.” The English spelling of Yeshua is “Joshua.”
However, when translated from Hebrew into the Greek language, the name Yeshua becomes Iēsous. The English spelling for Iēsous is “Jesus.”

I hear lots of: there was no “J”, from people who at the same moment they are taking that defense, have no problem whatsoever with the “J” in Jerusalem, Joshua, Jesse, Jacob, Joel, Jonah, etc….

Basically, what this means is Joshua and Jesus are the same name. One is translated from Hebrew into English, the other from Greek into English. It is also interesting to note, the names “Joshua” and “Isaiah” are essentially the same names as Yeshua in Hebrew. They mean “Saviour” and “the salvation of the Lord.”

Here is one practical illustration:

In German, our English word for book is “buch.” In Spanish, it becomes a “libro;” in French, a “livre.” The language changes, but the object itself does not. In the same way, we can refer to Jesus as “Jesus,” “Yeshua,” or “YehSou” (Cantonese), without changing His nature. In any language, His Name means “the Lord is Salvation.”

Those who insist all must call Jesus by his correct name, Yeshua, are concerning themselves with trivial, non-essential matters.
English speakers call him Jesus, with a “J” that sounds like “gee.” Portuguese speakers call him Jesus, but with a “J” that sounds like “sjeh,” and Spanish speakers call him Jesus, with a “J” that sounds like “hey.” Which one of these pronunciations is the correct one? All of them, of course, in their own language.

The Bible doesn’t give preeminence to one language over another. God Himself is the Author and Giver of language. We are not commanded to call upon the name of the Lord in Hebrew only.

Acts 2:21 says, “But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” God knows who calls upon His Name, whether they do so in English, Portuguese, Spanish, or Hebrew. He is still the same blessed Lord and Saviour.

Praise you the LORD. Praise, O you servants of the LORD,
praise the name of the LORD.
Blessed be the name of the LORD from this time forth and for ever more.
From the rising of the sun to the going down of the same the LORD’s name is to be praised. …

Dorothy

The N.T. pen-holders, the apostles, quote the OT Greek Septuagint more than the masoretic text.

The use of the Greek name Iesous (Jesus) for Joshua, (Yeshua) was common long before the birth of our Saviour. It is found in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scripture. The form is identical in the Old Testament Greek Septuagint to that of the New Testament text. The book of Yahoshua in the Greek Septuagint is named Iseous naus in Greek. So it was the Hebrews themselves that used the Greek language before Jesus’ time.

If we lived back then you would have called Jesus the Messiah- Iesous christos in Greek, and Yeshua ha Mashiach when speaking Hebrew. Jesus would respond to either of these names. Also other Names like “O, Thou Son of David”. The proof is found in the Scripture.

Everyone speaks in their own languages when calling upon the Lord. The Bible has been translated into many languages and each tribe and tongue call upon Him for salvation by the Name they know Him as. People get saved everyday without knowing one single word of Hebrew.
Yes, of course, God reached out to mankind through the 3 main languages in use in the world at the time the original Scriptures were written down. But, then, as we spread the Gospel, and the Bible is translated into languages that can be understood, you don’t really think He objects, do you?

The disciples prayed together in Acts 1:24: “You, O Lord, (Kurious) who know the hearts of all,” (Acts 8:24, 5:14, ) this is the word they used when they translated the tetragrammaton. This confirms that there is no requirement to speak His Hebrew name in prayer.

Dorothy

Thank you.

This last is not to debate, but I have a genuine question.
I continually scratch my head when you put quotes around ‘saved’ like this:
“Are people “saved” everyday….”

I see you do it all the time.
Is it strange, or worthy of ridicule terminology to you, and if so, why?

Ester

Skip, thank you for replying, you do a good job! So appreciative of that.

——————-

Dorothy,

May I reply to this? Not sure about you, but I see and know heaps of Christians being “saved” daily in all sorts of meetings, around the world.
Question- are these folks truly saved?
“Invite Jesus into your hearts, come as you are….” And,
repeat after me… with a “prayer” of ‘repentance”.
Many such poor souls stumble along with no direction from the Scriptures, known as “law” to guide them. They get so disillusioned, for the true gospel is not taught to them that there are protocols and statutes, commandments to obey and walk in.

All the above are from personal experiences from being a ‘counselor’ with FGBMFI where I am (still am) extremely shocked with the pride and arrogance of most of the leaders.
Do they have the fear of ABBA YHWH? Not judging, but by their fruit it can be seen.

Who then is responsible?

If you love Me, keep (guard) My commandments. Do we get to pick and choose, free will has been given!

IF you continue (moving on, a process of growing) in My Word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Appears like you have nothing to gain nor learn from this blog, nor are you willing to learn and relearn; and rather appears like you have “lots of Scripture knowledge” to give.

I am here to learn and share from Hebraic perspectives, even learning through Greek one word a day. I am also learning that “NT” translated from Hebrew to Greek and then into English, has many mistranslations.

Shalom! Keeping seeking from the Ruach of YHWH. Be blessed. 🙂

Dorothy

Ester, thanks for speaking for yourself.

I think only God knows who has been truly converted and who has not. I think lots will find themselves in hell who thought they would be in heaven. But each of us can have assurance in our own hearts, –we know if we know Him. (That is not meant to be a tongue twister)

2 Timothy 1:12 is like a sledge hammer against the work mongers that deny assurance is possible. Just look at those words carefully.

“For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” 2 Tim. 1:12

This contains two of Paul’s favorite words. Paul knows and he is persuaded. He is not saying that he knows all about Jesus Christ. Paul knows Christ Himself. He is emphasizing Whom he knows—not what he knows. Because he knows Christ, Paul is confident that he can commit his soul and his eternity into Christ’s hands and both will be kept secure for time and eternity. Paul knew the all-sufficiency of the cross and had entrusted his eternal destiny into the hands of Christ against “that day” when he, Paul, would stand before God. He knew all would be well in the day of judgment. He was positive he was saved and secure.

I would have let it go without further reply, but I don’t want some readers to be fearful by works.
“For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” Eph. 2: 8.
On the part of God, salvation is by grace; on the part of man, it is through faith.
Faith at once believes the good news of a free salvation through Christ, and accepts Christ as the Savior. We commit ourselves to him, trust ourselves to Him for that salvation of which He is the Author.
Salvation would have never been ours, except for the generosity of God.
People do not have to know everything — no one ever will anyway.
Cling to Jesus, that is saving faith, for He is able to do all He promises.

Daria

Skip wrote :”the argument of Galatians is not about who must keep Torah. It is about who will enter into fellowship with the Father and His children.”

When I first learned that God, THE GOD, wrote a love letter TO ME called the Bible, I was shocked (at 16 years old and had given my young heart and life to Him at about the age of 6 [while talking to Him in a linen closet, my secret hideaway]… definitely the power of the Holy Spirit clearly at work in spite of the religion of my mother and her family and the wicked nuns in the Catholic schools!) Galatians 5:1 became my life verse (coming out of the Catholic cult, this verse has HUGE influence on my life.) I learned it this way: “For freedom, Christ as set us free. Stand fast, therefore, and do not submit again to a yolk of slavery.”

How much more free can a person be that to be in fellowship with her CREATOR YHVH and those who love ONLY Him? To live is Christ; to die is gain. It’s a win-win situation!

Praise YHVH and thank Him for Yeshua HaMashiach!

p.s. Skip, how was western WA state? We sure wanted to be there with you!

Ryan S. Riddell

Skip:

Your passionate, aggressive, intellectual pursuits are respectable; although, your latest mention of Dr. Pryor lacks sensitivity. Unfortunately due to Dr. Pryor’s departure from this earth he is unable to rebut your commentary of his work.

I guess this is something intellectuals/ theologians, such as yourself do on occasion… However, as a Pastor of a church who works in very practical hands on ministry, and who pastors Dr. Pryor’s son and grandkids, I find your criticism dishonoring, harsh, and misguided by saying his teaching is “astounding, confused and ultimately incompatible with Scriptural evidence.” Continuing to suggest, “Pryor’s argument is filled with mistakes, exegetical assumptions and contradiction with other scriptural passages. You also, throughout your dissertation, continue to call him out in what I believe to be a very disrespectful way. This is in my view no way to call out a Christian brother.

Your assertion that his belief in Replacement Theology is just flat wrong. One of my closest brothers who studied under and knew him personally said after reading your post that you speak and accuse without knowing Dwight and the depth of his teaching. He said that your limited perspective is without merit and not based on Scripture.

In all of Dr. Pryor’s writings I challenge you to find 1 article or publication where he called a contemporary out as you have him. This was not Dwight’s style. Admittedly, his passion for the Torah as well as his deep exegetical study was so that he could better know Jesus Christ. In all of Dwight’s teaching Jesus was always the main thing.

Perhaps, one day when you leave this earth and go to be with the Lord, some other intellectual/ theologian will come behind you and challenge your work. I just hope it is done with a little more sensitivity, and more honor than the way you have criticized Dwight’s years of study. Please understand, you are loved and appreciated. Many of us at the Shelter Community Church of the Naz in Dayton, OH hold you in high regard; although, with this article, you have crossed the line. Hopefully you accept these words with love and gentleness. After all even Peter was rebuked from time to time…

As you assess his writing and his study, you may want to remember that for Dr. Dwight Pryor his passion was not the Law, it was Jesus. While I may also have differences in some of his teaching, I find that his teaching was quite honorable and worthy of pursuit. In my limitations in intellectual thought, reason, and philosophy, following Dwight’s lead in keeping “the main thing the main thing” was and is worthy of following.

– Ryan S. Riddell

Matt Woodward

Rejoicing In The Law?
AUTHOR: Dwight A. Pryor
“REJOICING in the Law? You’ve got to be kidding!” Such is the sentiment of many Christians when they hear about the Festival of Simchat Torah, which serves as the capstone of the joyous seven-day Feast of Tabernacles. “Rejoicing in the Torah” strikes them as an oxymoron, making no sense whatsoever. Why would they want to rejoice in that from which Christ came to set them free?
They have been taught that Law and Gospel are mutually exclusive ideas that contrast sharply. One is a “ministration of death and condemnation, and the other the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness” declares J.N. Darby, the father of Dispensationalism.
The division between Gospel and Law, a cornerstone conviction of the Protestant reformation, is stressed in a famous quote by Luther: “Whoever knows well how to distinguish the Gospel from the Law should give thanks to God and know that he is a real theologian.” The “chief and proper” function of the Law, he adds, is to “reveal to humanity [their] sin … and the well deserved wrath of God.” In effect the Law is a curse and a killer.
With this in view, who in their right mind would want to “rejoice in the Law”? That must be a “Jewish thing”. Well, I respectfully disagree. Actually it is a biblical thing.
TO SORT OUT this matter, let us begin not with Luther or Darby, but with a far more brilliant sage from Nazareth, named Yeshua (Jesus). For him the Torah was eternal. Heaven and earth will vanish before a “jot or tittle” (yod v’kotzo shel yod) shall pass away from the Law, he insists (Mt 5:18; Lk 16:17). Everything must be fulfilled, and since that has yet to occur, the Torah continues as a source of guidance, direction and instruction for people of faith.
Indeed Jesus commends his disciples who keep even the “least (lightest) of the commandments” (5:19). As a teacher, he uses well known rabbinic terminology to emphasize that his instruction does not “abolish” but “fulfills” the Torah. To abolish (levatel) is to undermine the Law by misinterpreting it; to fulfill (lekayem) the Torah is to properly interpret the text’s meaning so that people will conduct themselves in accordance with the Author’s intent. Like the Psalmist who declared, “Oh how I love your Torah! It is my meditation all the day” (Ps 119.97), Jesus of Nazareth rejoiced in the Law.
Once I was faulted by a pastor for speaking affectionately of the Torah and the biblical Feasts. “Don’t you know that the Law ended with Christ?” he protested. “God nailed the Law to the cross!”
“Excuse me,” I replied, “but if God nailed the Law to the cross then He doubled-crossed himself. He’s the one who gave the Torah to his redeemed and beloved children as a gracious gift.” What was nailed to the cross was not the Torah but our “record of debt” (ESV), that accounting of our trespasses, rightly condemned by the Law (Col 2:13-14).
If Christ is the “end of the Law” (Rom 10:4) in the sense of its termination then he contradicted himself when he said it would not pass away, and contrary to his own testimony he abolished the Law! In truth, Messiah is the telos (end) of the Torah in the sense of its aim or goal. Jesus is the Torah-incarnate, the Word-made-flesh, full of grace and truth.
Contra the Reformers, Paul of Tarsus also shared his Master’s bedrock respect for the Torah. He develops various facets of the Law that, especially in polemical settings (like Galatians), can sound entirely negative. But to do Paul justice, one first must put in place the apostle’s foundational commitment to the Torah as that which is “holy, righteous and good” (Rom 7:12); “spiritual” (7:14); that which his “inmost self delights in” (7:22); and the “just requirements” of which we who walk according to the Spirit are empowered to fulfill (8:4).
When we love one another and God we are fulfilling the (still relevant) Torah, and God rejoices over us! So, yes, by all means let us “Rejoice in the Law” with Israel. It is part of our heritage in Messiah, and to do so accords with New Testament teaching and honors the heavenly Father who gave us the Torah in love.

Gabe

I know I am interjecting on a two-way conversation, however, my own mother, whom I dearly love, fits into this category. She loves Jesus dearly, I’ve seen here lean on Him in prayer during very difficult times — however, I also believe her to be mistaken about some very important beliefs/practices – from which I think I’ve also seen her suffer. I would NEVER, personally attack her, however we have had cordial conversations of our differences along these lines.

When the disagreement is ‘in the family’ we can both disagree and stay in fellowship working towards unity.

Matt Woodward

PRINT
Rejoicing In The Law?
AUTHOR: Dwight A. Pryor
“REJOICING in the Law? You’ve got to be kidding!” Such is the sentiment of many Christians when they hear about the Festival of Simchat Torah, which serves as the capstone of the joyous seven-day Feast of Tabernacles. “Rejoicing in the Torah” strikes them as an oxymoron, making no sense whatsoever. Why would they want to rejoice in that from which Christ came to set them free?
They have been taught that Law and Gospel are mutually exclusive ideas that contrast sharply. One is a “ministration of death and condemnation, and the other the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness” declares J.N. Darby, the father of Dispensationalism.
The division between Gospel and Law, a cornerstone conviction of the Protestant reformation, is stressed in a famous quote by Luther: “Whoever knows well how to distinguish the Gospel from the Law should give thanks to God and know that he is a real theologian.” The “chief and proper” function of the Law, he adds, is to “reveal to humanity [their] sin … and the well deserved wrath of God.” In effect the Law is a curse and a killer.
With this in view, who in their right mind would want to “rejoice in the Law”? That must be a “Jewish thing”. Well, I respectfully disagree. Actually it is a biblical thing.
TO SORT OUT this matter, let us begin not with Luther or Darby, but with a far more brilliant sage from Nazareth, named Yeshua (Jesus). For him the Torah was eternal. Heaven and earth will vanish before a “jot or tittle” (yod v’kotzo shel yod) shall pass away from the Law, he insists (Mt 5:18; Lk 16:17). Everything must be fulfilled, and since that has yet to occur, the Torah continues as a source of guidance, direction and instruction for people of faith.
Indeed Jesus commends his disciples who keep even the “least (lightest) of the commandments” (5:19). As a teacher, he uses well known rabbinic terminology to emphasize that his instruction does not “abolish” but “fulfills” the Torah. To abolish (levatel) is to undermine the Law by misinterpreting it; to fulfill (lekayem) the Torah is to properly interpret the text’s meaning so that people will conduct themselves in accordance with the Author’s intent. Like the Psalmist who declared, “Oh how I love your Torah! It is my meditation all the day” (Ps 119.97), Jesus of Nazareth rejoiced in the Law.
Once I was faulted by a pastor for speaking affectionately of the Torah and the biblical Feasts. “Don’t you know that the Law ended with Christ?” he protested. “God nailed the Law to the cross!”
“Excuse me,” I replied, “but if God nailed the Law to the cross then He doubled-crossed himself. He’s the one who gave the Torah to his redeemed and beloved children as a gracious gift.” What was nailed to the cross was not the Torah but our “record of debt” (ESV), that accounting of our trespasses, rightly condemned by the Law (Col 2:13-14).
If Christ is the “end of the Law” (Rom 10:4) in the sense of its termination then he contradicted himself when he said it would not pass away, and contrary to his own testimony he abolished the Law! In truth, Messiah is the telos (end) of the Torah in the sense of its aim or goal. Jesus is the Torah-incarnate, the Word-made-flesh, full of grace and truth.
Contra the Reformers, Paul of Tarsus also shared his Master’s bedrock respect for the Torah. He develops various facets of the Law that, especially in polemical settings (like Galatians), can sound entirely negative. But to do Paul justice, one first must put in place the apostle’s foundational commitment to the Torah as that which is “holy, righteous and good” (Rom 7:12); “spiritual” (7:14); that which his “inmost self delights in” (7:22); and the “just requirements” of which we who walk according to the Spirit are empowered to fulfill (8:4).
When we love one another and God we are fulfilling the (still relevant) Torah, and God rejoices over us! So, yes, by all means let us “Rejoice in the Law” with Israel. It is part of our heritage in Messiah, and to do so accords with New Testament teaching and honors the heavenly Father who gave us the Torah in love.

Matt Woodward

The Maligned Apostle
AUTHOR: Dwight A. Pryor
IN OUR TIME a veritable revolution has occurred in Jesus studies.
Thanks in no small measure to Jewish scholarship in Israel, an impressive portrait has emerged of Jesus of Nazareth as a Torah-affirming Jewish sage who operated confidently within the vibrant matrix of Second Temple Jewish thought, drawing deeply upon the traditions and concepts of Judaism and the Hebrew scriptures. Increasingly these insights are being incorporated into the conceptual mainstream of the church, both Protestant and Catholic.
Would that the same could be said regarding the Apostle Paul! With few exceptions Jewish scholars and rabbis look upon him negatively—as a “convert” from Judaism to Christianity, forsaking Israel and his Jewish heritage, and insistently espousing an anti-Law polemic in his letters. Not coincidentally, this distorted image of “St. Paul” has been proffered by the Church since the fourth century, only to become more entrenched in the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century.
Fortunately a serious reassessment of the “Protestant Paul” is presently underway by several evangelical scholars. And it is needed. Consider for example the traditional misrepresentations of Paul’s relationship with the Law and Judaism.
As a devout Pharisee, by his own testimony, Paul (Saul) had a zeal for the Torah, and was completely confident of his righteous standing with respect to it (Phil 3:5-6). Even after his encounter with the risen Lord, he continued to identify himself, in the present tense, as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6). He went out of his way to celebrate the Feasts (20:16), and insisted that the Torah was “spiritual” and the commandments, “holy, just and good” and that in which he delighted (7:12, 14, 22).

WE SHOULD NOT BE SURPRISED that Paul has been misunderstood and maligned through the centuries. It was so from the beginning! Even Peter commented that “there are some things in [Paul’s writings] hard to understand” (2 Pet 3:16). A comment by James also is telling.
In Acts 21:20, James reported to Paul that in Jerusalem many “thousands of Jews” had come to faith in Messiah and all continued to be “zealous for the Torah” (suggesting that Torah observance was normative for Jewish believers). They had heard (falsely) that Paul taught Jews to “forsake Moses and the customs” of Judaism, including circumcising their children (21:21).
James suggested a course of action to prove that this was a spurious charge, that Paul in fact did “live in observance of the Torah” (21:24). Paul complied with James’ recommendation, not out of compromise or duplicity, but because it was true—as a believer in Yeshua he continued in his calling as a Jew to keep the commandments of the Law and the customs of his people. On three other occasions (Acts 24:14; 25:8; 28:17) he testifies to this significant but oft neglected truth about himself.
Paul’s actions were consistent with his own “rule in all the churches” (1 Cor 7:17-20): namely, that Jewish believers should not “put on the foreskin” (remove their circumcision), nor must Gentile believers become circumcised. More than a physical act is implied here. “Circumcision” in the Second Temple period was a shorthand way of referring to the whole package of Jewish covenantal identity and obligations.
In other words, according to Paul’s rule, Gentile believers were not required to become proselytes to Judaism (“be circumcised”), nor were Jewish believers—like Paul himself—to abdicate their heritage of Torah obligations (“remove their circumcisions”). They each should remain in their respective callings (7:20).
This Pauline dictum is consistent with the Jerusalem Council’s famous “Apostolic Decree” of Acts 15—in which the Apostles and church leaders ruled that Gentile believers should not be ordered to be circumcised and to keep all the laws of Moses, i.e., treated as if they were proselytes to Judaism (15:5, 28-29).
What was not said at that historic Council, however, is equally important to note (as have scholars like Nanos and Wyschogrod). Never in the dispute was the issue raised about the Jews present not keeping all the Torah’s commands or being released therefrom by virtue of their faith in Yeshua. It was an unchallenged assumption that Torah obligations were still in place for them, including Paul.
When Church councils in subsequent centuries formally forbade Jewish believers from living as Jews, and required them at baptism to renounce “every rite and observance of the Jewish religion,” they effectively banned Paul of Tarsus from membership! We all have suffered the consequences ever since.

Matt Woodward

Hey Skip,
I appreciate the input. My posts were not meant to challenge your view of Pryor as much as it was to challenge the way you went about it. Typically you will focus on a word of scripture (Hence Today’s word). Yet on this day you spoke, and at great length, about “one” lecture you heard from Dr. Pryor. As i stated above, there have been many instances over the past five years i have personally known you that i too have had to defend you because of one post or one teaching. One teaching does not give the full weight of who you are nor what you believe entirely. Regarding your comments on Dr. Pryor, “Pryor’s view forces us to think that Paul distinguishes himself from others within the Body on the basis of the acceptance or rejection of Torah, and Pryor concludes that the only possible distinction given this dichotomy is that Paul rejected Torah observance.” It only took me 5 minutes to go to his website to find two articles that didn’t agree with your statement. My point being, one teaching, one statement, one TW does not define a man or his ministry or his entire belief system. My defensiveness was brought on because another teacher of mine, Rabbi Gorelik taught me that we can learn something from all these teachers. Chabad.org taught me the meaning of Lashon Hara, Tim Hegg taught me more about Shaul, FFOZ has taught me about many issues in the Talmud and the Torah, TW has taught me necessity to know the Language and its many nuances, Ron Mosely has taught me many historical events, Dr. Pryor taught me about the Jewish Jesus and the Kingdom of Heaven. Now i don’t agree with everybody i learn from, but i can truly glean aspects of truth as i move on this journey always striving to walk near our Lord. If my use of hyperbole offended anyone, my apologies.
Shalom

Matt Woodward

Skip,
Please see below, to answer your question on showing just one thing about Dwight’s view of Torah.
As i wrote above and was never answered, it is easy to judge a comment out of context. Now i have never listened to Dwight’s teaching that you quoted from (and i am sure i will in the future), but i agree with Ryan regarding your comments. The biggest problem is that by your comments you turn people away from Dwight’s many many teachings that are tremendously beneficial to people searching to know more about Yeshua, our Jewish Messiah. You may question something said from his teaching but then you apply it to his entire ministry, hence giving some of your kool-aid drinkers no room to think for themselves. This is the biggest problem because if we are to teach others to start thinking from a Hebraic perspective don’t the rabbis teach that we can learn something from everybody, even those in whom we have some type of disagreement. You may not realize but your tone leads people to believe that only you can be heard for truth. It is not your challenging of statements or theology of others but your tone and harsh personal words of attack that turn people away. This was something that Dwight was quiet attuned to. He cared about people as much as he cared about Torah. He didn’t want to turn people away from Torah but to invite them into walking with him in it. I suggest your beef with Pryor isn’t as much theological as much as it is philosophical and practical. I know you are one who leans toward one Torah law and in absolute obedience, but just because others disagree with your approach doesn’t necessarily make them wrong. To believe so is to believe you are always right. Hence you are the one with absolute truth, but that would be Greek wouldn’t it?

Gabe

Ouch! “Kool-aid drinkers”?

The articles you posted have been the FIRST thing that made me think maybe that maybe Dr. Pryor HAS been misunderstood (since they actually speak to the issue). The original post against Pryor’s teachings was as respectful as could be, and still be disagreeing. But the RESPONSE accusing Skip of a ‘personal attack’, was much more personal and condemning.

I couldn’t find where Skip called Dr. Pryor’s students “kool-aid drinkers”, or a place where he insinuated that Dr. Pryor thought of himself the one with ‘absolute truth’, he doesn’t denigrate the motivations of Pryor, nor does he use guilt-by-association, nor any of the other ‘ad hominem’ fallacies that qualify as personal attacks.

What gives?

Matt Woodward

Hey Gabe, thanks for the response. I wasn’t speaking about Dr. prior as the one with absolute truth or that his followers were koolaid drinkers. Rather, i was insinuating that when Skip speaks in such a way there are many on TW who take what is written as “truth” as per the above comments. This was evidenced above since i was the second person to post yet no one answered any of my questions in defense of Dr. Pryor. Everyone, rather, was quick to put down and believe what was written by Skip. My references above may use some hyperbole, but for good reason. Dr. Pryor was one of the first who has been teaching the Jewishness Of Yeshua and the Role and joy of Torah in the believers life with any “significant” impact in the US. Skip’s words have influence, and with influence comes power. The words from skip to the many TW readers was one of caution against Dr. Pryor. A man who stood with us in our effort to pursue truth and Torah. It would be a shame to use words that would diminish his life work of teaching and desire to bring “the church” back to its Hebraic roots.

robert lafoy

Hi Matt,

“I wasn’t speaking about Dr. prior as the one with absolute truth or that his followers were koolaid drinkers. Rather, i was insinuating that when Skip speaks in such a way there are many on TW who take what is written as “truth” as per the above comments. This was evidenced above since i was the second person to post yet no one answered any of my questions in defense of Dr. Pryor. Everyone, rather, was quick to put down and believe what was written by Skip”.

I would think it unfair to assume that because someone doesn’t respond to your posts, either for or against, suggests that the majority of people on this site “take what Skip says” as absolute truth. What you’ve seen written here by various members is simply discussions of some principles of belief. I don’t believe you have enough information to assume that the majority of people on this site either believe one thing or another, or to assume that we take all,or even some of what Skip says as absolute truth,it is terribly presumptuous. As far as I can tell, there are a wide variety of beliefs evident on this site and (for the most part) Skip allows all views to be expressed as long as their done with a searching heart and without extreme dissention. ie; in the 3 years I’ve been a participant at this site, only one person has been removed and only after several cautions concerning statements that were made.

I understand your affection and honor towards this man and that your response is driven by that very thing. However I must say that your statement concerning koolaid drinkers is, at best, vicious. I’ll say this with as much gentleness as I can ( I truly don’t mean it as condemning, but rather as something to contemplate). You said that Dwight cared about people as much as he cared about Torah. (the greatest command) what do you think he would have thought about that statement, much less the “greek thing”?

To all of us I say, (mostly to me) we shouldn’t allow our passion to overcome our compassion. As God fearers and disciples of Yeshua let’s conduct ourselves in honor and gentleness as is worthy of the One who redeemed us.

YHWH bless you and keep you………..

Ester

Ditto, Gabe.

What makes folks presume (while they accused Skip of being presumptuous) that we are
” some of your kool-aid drinkers no room to think for themselves”, begging your pardon, Matt Woodward, what makes you presume we do not think for ourselves?!

Pray give a sound reply! Shalom!

Ester

Hi Robert Lafoy,

Absolutely, thank you for standing up for truth. You wrote-” However I must say that your statement concerning koolaid drinkers is, at best, vicious” !!

I felt such indignation upon reading what Matt Wooward wrote, generalising us here, while he is so vicious in criticising Skip of what he himself is doing.

Shalom and blessings to you.

carl roberts

Wow!- and to think (oops!- sorry, too Greek- I forgot!!- no “thinking” -just do.) Reeedonkulous. (Look that up in your Greek/Hebrew dictionary.
Greek vs Hebrew? No and no and not at all.
Greek paradigm or Hebrew paradigms. Neither or both?

What then? Are we any better than they? Of course we are, – we’re Hebrews! Of course we are we’re Greek! Of course we are, we are educated white or black or red-faced men! Of course we are we are rich and powerful so we are better! Better than what? Some Greek or Hebrew drunk in the gutter? O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?

In any language.. ~ For ALL (y’all) have sinned. Oh?

Repeat this one thousand times (if necessary..) Read these words (in any language upon the face of the earth)- for the gospel of Jesus (who is the Christ, the son of David AND David’s LORD- (LORD of the- Philistines also!) – for God is not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUUUUUUUUT- that ALLLLLLLLL men e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e should repent.

Paul, (formerly known as Saul- a very “righteous” man- a Pharisee- a keeper of the Torah- was (for lack of a better word- CHANGED. He was changed from the “CREATURE” He was. He was NO LONGER THE SAME.

This is the real deal (in any language, in any culture- in any “time period” or age) -radical change.

Christ introduces into any life (a man or woman who is a breathing creature)- radical change and transformation.

If your life (or mine) has not been changed and for the better, then you (or I) do not KNOW HIM.

This, my dear friends- all of you- is NOT about religion, or race, or rules, or rituals or customs, or creeds, or codes, or culture- or even “the church..”- it is about a relationship with the crucified, resurrected and now living Christ. Christianity IS Christ.

How odd that I dare not even use the “word” Christian, because some may find it offensive. To this I reply- “wonderful!” For He (Himself) is the “Offensive Christ” He (only) divides- and conquers.

To the one (whether Jew or Greek or male or female) He is the savor of life unto life and to another (whether Jew or Greek or male or female) He is the savor of death unto death.

Christ is the dividing line. The gospel of Christ IS very devisive. Choose YOU this day who YOU will serve, Joshua, or John or Jane or Jim.

The cross of the crucified Christ is for (is anyone left listening?)- for EVERY MAN. It is for the Jew, and it is for the Greeks (ALSO). Not one soul is left out or refused.

Translate this text for me, (Please!!)- “WHOSOEVER WILL” may come… (uhhhhh…).

I need at least seven Phd’s after my name to understand this “text.”- ~ Come unto ME- ALLLL you who labor are heavy laden and I will give you rest.. ~

It is Christ. -And it is Christ alone.

And *in Christ* alone, I place my trust and find my glory (also) in the power of the cross for I (too) am a sinner.. (always have been – always will be) with one small exception. I am (he confessed publicly) also a sinner saved by grace. By grace alone- through faith alone AND- Unto Good Works. (Ephesians 2: 8-10)

I cannot work my soul to save
that work’s already done..
but I will work like any slave
for the love of God the Son.

~ Sirs, what must I “do” to be saved? ~

Is salvation “do?”- or is it “DONE!!”

Finished. Final. Full. Complete. PAID IN FULL- forever.

Resting in my Savior as my all in all, I am (now, today) a new creation in Christ, belonging to the always Good Shepherd, and ready to hear and to obey and as one of His servants- a slave of the Lamb of God, who by the shedding of His own blood has redeemed this sinful man, I will listen and I will do -whatever He says, for obedience to Him and allegiance to Him is the way of life. liberty and laughter, and I may now also gladly, freely- fully say (with Him)- I (also) delight to do Your will, my ABBA-Father, Amen.

Is your heart right with God?
Washed in the crimson flood?
Cleansed and made holy?
Humble and lowly?

Right- in the sight of God.

~ And today, if you (also) will hear His voice,- harden not your heart ~

One more thing..

He will soon return, not as the Lamb, but this time as the Lion. The Lion of the tribe of Judah.

~Blessed is the (sacred, saving) Name, the Name (His Name) which is above every name that is named in Heaven AND in earth ~

He humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

Therefore, God elevated Him to the place of highest honor
and gave Him the Name above all other names,
that at the Name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow,
in Heaven and on Earth and under the earth,
and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD,
-to the glory of God the Father.

Jewish knees? Greek knees? -or the two knees belonging to this man? – Yes.

Dorothy

Paul sure WAS changed.
I’ll go straight to the text the Holy Spirit saw fit to record for us, skipping all else.

Paul’s conversion is recorded for us 3 times. (Acts 9:1-9, 22:6-11, 26:9-20)
There are repeated elements central to his mission and commissioning.

First, it marked his conversion from what he was–an enemy of Jesus and to those who had come to know, love, and followed Jesus Christ. (we do call that Christianity)

Second, it constituted his call to be a prophet;

Third, it served as his commission to be an apostle.

These 3 points can be broken down to the following:
(1) Paul was specifically chosen and prepared by the Lord for the work that he would do;
(2) Paul was sent as a witness to the Jews and the Gentiles as well.
(3) Paul’s evangelistic mission would encounter rejection and require suffering;
(4) Paul would bring light to people who were born into and currently lived in darkness;
(5) Paul would preach that repentance was required prior to a person’s acceptance into the faith;
(6) Paul’s witness would be permanently grounded in space-time history and be based on his Damascus Road experience—what he had personally seen and heard in a real spot that would be known to all who lived in Damascus.

Before Gamaliel’s pupil could come into the ministry entrusted to him by God and the death of Jesus, a revolution had to take place in his life and thought.
Paul would later say that he was “apprehended” by Jesus (Phil. 3:12) on the road to Damascus, a term that our Sherriff uses when he says he captured someone and was victorious through pursuit! (Yay! makes me shout)

In Acts 9, we clearly see miracles on display in Paul’s conversion, to make clear that God is in control and directing all the events, so that Paul be willing undertake certain tasks God had in mind. God’s plans, God’s way, — not anything the former Saul ever had any intention of doing.

Many observations can be made about Paul’s conversion. Two key items are of supreme interest.

First is the fact that Paul’s life would become centered on Christ after his experience.
After his encounter with Jesus, Paul’s understanding of the Messiah had been revolutionized, and it was not long before he is proclaiming, “He [Jesus] is the Son of God” (Acts 9:20).

Second, note that in Paul’s conversion there are no precursory events that led him from being a zealous opponent to a fervent proponent of Christ.
One minute Paul had been an enemy of Jesus, and the next he had become a captive to the Christ he had once persecuted.
Paul says, “By the grace of God, I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10), indicating the magnificent, unsought, unimagined transformation.
He became truly spiritual, and he was one whom Christ possessed as His.
Paul was now a Christ-bearer himself.

After the his capture/Damascus Road experience he likely spent time in quiet reflections; joy, sorrow, repentance, awe, recollection, awareness of Jesus. (I can imagine because I only need to think back what it was like after Jesus captured me!)
After a short stay in Jerusalem, he worked as a missionary in Syria and Cilicia, and after that in team work with Barnabas in Cyprus, in Pamphylia, Pisidia, and Lycaonia.

LOVE CAPTURED ALL OF PAUL. (Beautiful. Victorious Jesus)
Paul, the former cold aggressor and legalist, had now been changed into a man who could write of the key law of Christ that towers above everything else.
Read again the 13th ch. of 1 Cor. – love for God and those around him.

At last, the one who was supremely educated in knowledge had come to the point of saying that knowledge (devoid of love) only makes one arrogant, but love edifies (1 Cor. 8:1).

Dorothy

There was a great change in Paul that took him from the vengeful persecutor, to lover of the brethren and lover of Christ, who earnestly spent the rest of his life preaching Jesus, so far so, that he counted all else dung.

Accepted the Messiah? So be it. I like that word, too.
I only used converted because you respond so skeptically to saved. Just trying to find the word that fits, — I can use any of several to mean the same thing.

No, of course Jewish people who accept Jesus the Christ do not stop being Jewish!
(Italians don’t stop being Italian when they accept Jesus as Saviour either)
I’ve never said, nor thought that. You put those words, I didn’t.

They remain strong in their Jewish identity, lifestyle and culture, while following Yeshua as He is revealed in the the New Covenant. Many Messianic Jews refer to themselves as “completed Jews,” since they believe that their faith in the God of Israel has been “completed” or fulfilled in Yeshua.
I say Amen to that.
No one is ‘complete’ who has never yet met the Saviour!

I searched, and those who know, says there are over 350,000 Messianic Jews in the world, and the numbers are growing all the time. Messianic synagogues have also become very popular, and recent estimates number more than 200 congregations in the USA. Many Messianic congregations in Israel and around the world.

Messianic Jews continue to celebrate the Jewish festivals and feast days as prescribed in the Hebrew Scriptures but they do it in a way that demonstrates how Yeshua has already fulfilled these Holy Days. Jews who now follow Yeshua the Messiah understand that everything given in the Old Covenant was a “mere shadow” of the better things to come in the New. This is from their own writings and own spoken words.

Jews for Jesus, now Chosen People Ministries, maintains as a core conviction that a Jewish person does not lose his Jewish identity when he becomes a believer in Jesus the Messiah. Jews for Jesus believes in one God in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They believe that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is the inspired Word of God. They believe that salvation for both Jew and Gentile is through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. They believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the prophesied Messiah. They believe that Jesus is co-equal with the Father and that He is both fully God and fully human. They believe that the Jewish people are in a covenant relationship with God and that God will accomplish His purpose through them. They also believe that the Church is under the New Covenant and composed of both Jewish and Gentile believers. In other words, their beliefs reflect historic Christian orthodoxy. Their heart’s desire is to share the gospel with their Jewish family, neighbors and friends.

And THIS is what Paul was like!

carl roberts

Everywhere Paul went, somehow ended up either in a revival or a riot. Why or how did Paul (formerly know as Saul) a persecutor of these “followers of the Way”- suddenly himself become one of “them?” No, Paul did not become a converted Jew but rather a completed Jew as he met the “Light of the world” (the world?- Gentiles too?) and was radically changed. A change of mindset? If ever a man could demo what “repentance” is all about – it would be Paul.
Though Paul, the equivalent of triple Phd, a jewel among the Jews and a pedigreed Pharisee among the Pharisees, had this to say:
~ Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ ~ (Philippians 3.8)
Paul, (formerly known as Saul) may have been a Torah observant Jew, and let’ go ahead and say he was- why should he change his diet or observance of a day of rest, but there was something, (rather Someone) who made a great impression upon Paul, so much so that he left off persecuting the bride of Christ and then set out to help Him build her up.
Once again, “if any man” be *in Christ..* Who is the gospel of Christ for? for the Jew (only?) or for the Gentile (only?) – or is the gospel for “whosoever will?”
It was Paul who wrote: ~ What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in everything; first, that they were entrusted with the words of God ~ Yes, the Law was given unto Moses and for the people- but was this Law for the Jews only?
It has been said, “all law is based upon the Law that was written in stone and given unto Moses. ” And again, who is to disagree, “the Law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul.. “- (Psalm 19.7) And again.. ~ I had not know sin- except by the Law.. ~ (Romans 7.7)
What does this mean? God said, “Thou shalt not.. (eat of the fruit?)”- and what did I do? I disobeyed and did what God said not to do, just as my great, great- no-so-great grandfather did- I (too) disobeyed the instructions of my Creator, just as Adam did. Yes, I am rather red-faced about it now, but when God says in His holy word ~ all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, – I see that my condition or state is quite human. “To err is human?” All have “erred?” Oh yes!= ask Adam if he “erred..”- and then consider the consequences or witness the “wages” of his “erring!” Regrets?- (yes, Frank..) I’ve had a few (too.).
We all must (Torah keepers too!) remember, ~ whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it ~ (James 2.10)
Even ~ the thought of foolishness is sin..~ (Proverbs 24.9) Oh David, what were you thinking as you gazed upon Bathsheba?
What does the Law prove? It proves we (all) need a Savior. ~ What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; ~ (Romans 3.9)

May I? ~ they are ALL under sin..~ (both Jew and Greek)

What do Jews and Gentiles ‘both’ have in common? “Both” are sinners in need of a Savior. Those who keep Torah need a Savior. Those who do not keep kosher need a Savior. Both Jews and Greeks- all are sinners needing SomeOne to deliver them from the bondage of sin and of death.
And Who is the only One who can do this? What unifies both Jews and Greeks? ~ But if we walk in the Light, as He is in the Light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleans us from all sin~ (1 John 1.7)
No, I wouldn’t say Paul was “converted,” but certainly he became the first “completed” Jew ever. Not converted to a (yes, non-existent) “religion”), but completed *in relationship to Christ*- to the point of radical life-change and becoming (himself) a new creation in Christ the Messiah.

~Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.~

“I do all this..”- Why? – “for the sake of the gospel..”

Are we doing what we do- “for the sake of the gospel?

~ For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek ~ (Romans 1.16)

Dorothy

VERY good commentary, as usual. The first sentence cracked me up!
Paul is still causing riots everyplace he goes, isn’t he? how true, how true.
Thanks for the unique observation to end my day with! God bless and keep you, brother.

Gabe

The good Samaritan AND Cornelius had outstanding character. They were not randomly chosen. Luke, Paul, and Peter make the point that ETHNICITY doesn’t matter – not that character and code of conduct don’t matter.

Brian

Skip,

I supported brother Dwight and gleaned from his teaching ministry for about 14 years. I will wade into this conversation a little later today.

Ross

Skip,

thank you for your perseverance for the truth and steadfastness in your walk. I have learnt a lot from all sorts of teachers over the last 2-3 years, from Rabbis to Messianics to others that may not be as far down the “ancient paths” as others. My point is that we should be secure enough in our relationship with the Lord to be able to pick up on error and highlight where we are strolling off into our “inherited” roads without it causing offence. You have handled this with respect and I’m sure if Dwight was around he would take a second look. We shouldn’t be afraid of calling each other out as our approval doesn’t come from men but we rather seek to be servants, bondservants of righteousness. I find all too often that because of the way Churches have treated those in “error”, we tend to adopt the same attitude and throw the baby out with the bath water. I have seen too many relationships ended unnecessarily due to this sad and naïve attitude. Be encouraged Skip as those who have the security and maturity to continue to strive and wrestle with the Word will grow. When we fear, truly fear His Word then we will treat it with the respect it deserves and also see the need to cry out for help in searching what the Lord is trying to show us, we need each other more then we know.

I wanted to add a little in for Dorothy’s benefit, simply put…..
The Jews need to repent and return “teshuvah”…. it’s the Church that needs to “convert” (Not to Judaism) but away from their ways and paths to be identified and adopted into the covenant made with Israel ( a Holy,set apart people). It must have been the biggest “penny drop” in history when Paul realised the true context and saw the Messiah in everything he had previously learnt. As a recent sermon I listened to quoted….. Why would you ask the waiter to fill up your cup and then once it’s full ask for it to be removed? The Torah being the cup, the Messiah filling it up and giving it the meaning so we all can partake of this wonderful blessing.

Dorothy

Ross — the Jewish people need to repent of following their Messiah????

Heb 1:1-3 , Mark 7:6-13

And Christians go away from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ???

Galatians 3:9: “So then they which be OF FAITH are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
We are not blessed BY Abraham, but we are blessed WITH Abraham, through the same means of grace, through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ester

Hi Dorothy,

Are you reading and understanding right what Ross said above?
You have ADDED to his word, and changed what he meant.
That is what’s causing the problems we are facing in this blog, lack of understanding where we
Torah folks are coming from.

Grace did not begin in the “NT”, it began way back in the Garden of Eden.

Perhaps you need to go read your Bible from the very beginning to Revelation, and not choosing what to read leaving certain books as irrelevant?
Be forewarned, if you add to or take away from YHWH’s Word, what the consequences are.

Shalom!

Dorothy

You are not my judge and I have not said anything out of order, or added to or taken away from the Word of God.
You know nothing about my Bible reading that you can speak of it either yay or nay.

Nor, not anywhere have I said “grace began in the N.T.”
God changes not. Malachi 3:6

Ester

Dorothy-
It is from all your comments that clearly project your thoughts and the reading/understanding of Scriptures.

Do read again what Ross posted above, checking with what your response was. Was it out of order?

Yeshua, the AlephTav, the Beginning and the End, is found all over in the Hebrew text of Scriptures, not as you often quote “JesusChrist” from the “NT”. Without the “OT” there will not be a “NT”.
Your foundation is pretty shaking, if you forsake the “OT”, or some of them, which is “the beginning” of your faith/trust, or belief..
Shalom!

Desiree

That is a lot to think about.

Annie

Skip, thanks for mentioning that there were so many comments on this article. I enjoyed reading through them. I’d just like to say that, from walking in Torah for over 40 yrs (my parents were called out of the RCC to Torah observance when I was a young child), I have seen a lot, and one thing that out to me is a double standard that Torah is for us, for today…and on the other hand, Torah is not required of gentiles today. It’s confusion, it’s speaking out of both sides of one’s mouth. In a long conference call with FFOZ after their doctrinal shift to this double standard, the statement was made, “if you’ve ever thought, I wish I never would have gotten on this Torah train, it’s too hard, well now is your chance to jump off, you don’t have to be on it”. I just don’t see how it’s so hard to understand the simple fact that Yeshua is the Word, and all things were created, and are sustained through the Word. What other Word was there besides Torah? Torah is what holds this creation together, and we see it falling apart (groaning) for lack of walking in it with each other. A good brief article on this is http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson001.html . Skip, I am appreciating your writings more every day. Keep up the clarity. It isn’t easy to be the one to call attention to error, and yet it is something that scholars & researchers must do, and it isn’t personal, it is just the pursuit of truth, and the responsibility to teach it when God has laid that on you. Thanks again.

Rein de Wit

Skip, you might find this interesting:

http://jewishstudies.eteacherbiblical.com/2013/06/inventing-christian-identity-paul-ignatius-theodosius-i/

The link to the PDF is http://jewishstudies.eteacherbiblical.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Anders-Runesson-Inventing-Christian-Identity.pdf

I don’t completely agree with his assessment on Paul, but he has some very interesting remarks regarding the formation of the Christian church.

Would love to hear your comments on it.

Ester

Annie-
Thumbs UP! Rightly dividing the Word too, so sensible. 🙂

Shalom!

Karen Worstell

Hi Skip,
I am seeing this post for the first time, and am going back to listen to the audio series that was the subject of your original post.

I have been a student of Dwight Pryor’s since 2006. I find your reading of his lecture to be inconsistent with everything he has taught up until his death, including my original understanding of this particular lecture series. But since I was about to listen to this series again anyway, I will keep careful notes and get back to you. I respect both you and Dr. Pryor and would like to understand why you and I hear his teaching so differently.

Best regards,
Karen

Bruce Colbert

Skip, you may also want to consider the context of this set of messages as a part of a continuum of Dwight’s work, with his thoughts evolving over time (as they do for us all) even on this individual subject . I think you would have found some of his subsequent teachings on this subject (which may not all be readily available) to have a markedly different flavor in some of the areas you mention.

Peter S

Hi Skip,
I can only imagine that there must be TWO versions of this lecture. It would also appear that I just finished listening to the wrong one, one startlingly different to the ‘one’ you allude to. In the one I listened to Dr Pryor went to great lengths to categorically deny that Paul converted to Christianity, rather he came into the fullness of Jewish faith in the revelation of Messiah Yeshua. He stated that it was gentile believers that ‘convert’. How did you miss this? To call him a replacement theologian is simply mischievous. Without working from a transcription or at least VTR time coded ‘references’ your assertions appears distinctly flaccid.
You say that no follower of Messiah was called Christian until the second century CE; are you discounting Acts 11:26? If so on what basis? Are you pushing for a late date on the book of Acts now?

What is quite interesting that a number of respondents to your piece leap on the bandwagon without even checking out the validity of your analysis by actually exposing themselves to lecture themselves. Scary.

It is available on Youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvQPkuj3mS8

Cheryl Pope

Dear Mr. Moen,
This is my second response on this thread. I just want to say as a long time student of Dwight Pryor, may his memory be a blessing, that all of his work specifically spoke out against Replacement Theology. I believe that you have wrongly accused Dwight Pryor of something that his ministry most specifically stood and taught against. I have been disappointed and hurt by this accusation against the memory of the life and work of Dwight Pryor. Thank you for considering this response and my previous one.
Best regards.
A disciple of Yeshua

Allison

I would love to hear what Dwight Pryor said. How do we find this on the internet? All this discussion seems useless if we haven’t heard it for ourselves.

Cheryl Pope

Dear Dr. Moen,
I apologize for not addressing you with the appropriate suffix in my earlier post; I was negligent on this note. I appreciate that you responded to my concerns about your post about Dwight Pryor. I stumbled upon the thread purely by accident when I did a google search for something that I quickly forgot when this post was featured and I began surveying your thoughts and some of the responses. I have since read all the comments and took your advice and read other posts where you affirmed Dwight Pryor’s teaching series: Reassessing the Doctrine of Original Sin. (One of my favorites!) I had found myself startled by my discovery of your earlier assessment of Dr. Pryor suggesting that he be filed in the camp of Replacement Theology. Yes, I do have a general affection for the man but the reason I spoke up was that I know after seriously studying his material for 18 years, attending a week long workshop in Dayton, and enjoying his teaching for a weekend in our local church that this man’s life and work was to stand against Replacement Theology and lift of the centrality of Yeshua’s affection and unity with the Father. I will not take any more of your time in an attempt to defend Dwight Pryor but I am glad that I spoke up even though I was rather late in the conversation. I suppose we all learned what we needed to learn from this experience. After all, we are all His disciples. I will continue to study and learn from learned and esteemed teachers as yourself and Dwight Pryor. The passage of scripture that continues to come to mind as I reflect on this thread which began last summer is in the twelfth chapter of Matthew when Yeshua states: “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not survive.” I believe it is the God of Israel who began the work of restoration and he is using different people with different gifts to accomplish His mission. I submit this with all due respect. Shalom!