The Logic of Discovery
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2 ESV
Testing/discern – One word, two ideas. To test. To discern. Paul chooses the Greek verb dokimazo. It means, “to watch, to determine what is reliable, of value.” In the TDNT, Grundmann notes, “Set under God’s searching eye, Christians come under the twofold testing denoted by the verb dokimázein. a. They must learn the will of God by testing (cf. Rom. 12:2; Eph. 5:9–10; Phil. 1:10; 1 Th. 5:21). This protects them from caprice and brings them seriously under God’s will for their lives. In the same way they are to test the spirits (1 Jn. 4:1). b. At the same time, they are to test themselves (2 Cor. 13:5). In particular, the disorderly Corinthians are to examine themselves when they come to the Lord’s table (1 Cor. 11:28). c. Jesus also demands that his followers should test the times, reproaching the people because they can interpret material phenomena but not detect the signs of God’s direction of history (Lk. 12:56).”[1] The process of testing, trying it out, results in discernment, knowing what works. But obviously, those who wish to analyze and evaluate before trying it will never get to the place of practical experience.
Of course, this does not mean the Bible promotes trying anything. The biblical record clearly tells us that some practices are not to be tried. God and others have already tested and determined the verdict on a good deal of human possible choices. Some just don’t work at all. Learn to avoid them. But when it comes to the invitation into God’s Kingdom and His practices, the best policy is “try before you buy.” That’s pretty much what Yeshua meant with His analogy of “counting the cost.” Get into the culture. Practice what other followers are already doing. Let it absorb you. Then you will know “the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.”
The Western world takes a decidedly different approach. Since the Greek-based culture is a kingdom of the mind, it follows the course of the serpent. “See, doesn’t that look great? Wouldn’t you like to have it? Don’t worry about what God actually said. You can make up your own mind on such things. Decide for yourself if it would be good for you!” In other words, just like Havvah, most of us sin before we actually pick the fruit. We have already measured God’s instruction of the basis of our standard, that is, what’s good for us. The entire process happens in our heads before we even reach for the fruit. But the biblical world takes a different approach. Do what God has already determined is good and acceptable and perfect. DO IT! Then decide if it works out for you.
Testing and deciding are the same thing, just temporally separated. But notice it isn’t deciding and testing. So if we are to do before we determine, then we better have some pretty clear instructions to follow, right?
Topical Index: testing, discern, dokimazo, dokimazein, Romans 12:2
[1] W. Grundmann in Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (182). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.
“Since the Greek-based culture is a kingdom of the mind, it follows the course of the serpent.”
Not only did he suggest the idea of deity – you will be like God – but the serpent also called into question God’s ability to pull off what he promised.. Maybe YHVH could pull of his threat, maybe he can’t. The first example of Pascal’s Wager. The course of the serpent, then, is merely a denial of the absolute sovereignty of the uncreated God and his truthfulness in return for a substitute standard that comes from below – the created order.
I just lost a business to an investor who took over and pushed me out. The business was my concept and design. I spent almost 2 years of my time and all my savings putting it together and training the staff. it is a healthy European style gourmet natural cafe. It became successful very quickly. The investors were all religious Baptist lady friends of the partner I teamed up with. I finally resigned because the work place became intolerable with the partner at the helm. This left me with a about a month’s supply of money for my survival. I had to do something fast. I quickly put together a natural cafe with a restaurant owner. I’m now working 7 days a week trying to get it off the ground with no working capital. I’m the baker, chef, the order taker, the server, the cashier, the cleaner, marketer, bookkeeper, etc. I really need one helper to just get me started but can’t afford one. Am I testing whether this is God’s will? Since I’m working on Sabbath was this a wrong choice? I’ve always avoided working on Shabbat but I’ve never been in such a financial crunch. I prayed for God’s guidance while looking for a way to make a living and do his will. Maybe something will come out of this post on TW. You can learn about the restaurant and nutrition education center I created and lost at http://www.vibrantcuisine.com. You can also read about me on the About Us page. I’m reaching out to this community for support and guidance.
Robin,
I have been in your position. No cash, actually,less then no cash, payrolls to make, matching funds. “Your” vision(s) taken over or diluted more then, “fill in the blank.” My partner was my brother-in-law, who turned out to be, drum roll, an “adult baby”. Google that anomaly and see if you want a partner like that. I don’t know where you are, but if you are in SoCal and reasonably close, I would be honored to volunteer. No “rose” gardens are promised in Scripture, yet the hope of a “garden” is on the horizon. May you have success. Shalom.
Thank you, David!
Hi Robin,
I was sorry to learn of the problems you are going through with your business and former partner. I checked out your website and it looks like you have some excellent qualifications, skills and education.
With that said, the new natural cafe you recently started will probably excel as well as Vibrante Cafe in due time.
Re: working on the Sabbath… that’s a tough one. There are times when, humanly speaking, we can’t see any other option, yet, Scripture is so clear on the issue. The more I comply with this instruction, the more I understand the importance of honoring it. You can’t put a price on the peace you will feel by “doing it God’s way.” Perhaps it’s a goal you can shoot for down the pike if it’s not possible right away. There is a wonderful Mexican restaurant in my area that is owned and operated by a Messianic Mexican Jewish man and his family. People flock there in spite of the fact that he shuts down every Friday evening and re opens Saturday evening, (and doesn’t hesitate to explain why). He’s been blessed with a booming business.
I’ll be praying for you and your new business and you wrestle with your decision. Blessings.
Thank you, Judi. The cafe is not open on Shabbat but I work the Farmers market to get the word out about the cafe on Shabbat. The farmers market is open only on Saturday and has about 2000 to 3000 shoppers. I was planning to stop the Farmers Market as soon as I have cafe clientele.
Hi Robin. Thanks for your explanations. They help understand the full picture.
Yes, Farmer’s Markets are a fixed day only…not negotiable.
And, you are doing work that helps people live healthier and more Godly lives. That’s a good thing.
Perhaps this is His plan for you right now.
Doctors help patients on the Sabbath.
Rabbis teach/preach on the Sabbath.
And, Robin helps guide people back to Yah’s dietary instructions on the Sabbath.
Shalom.
Robin, most of this is from a Christian writer Jayson Meyer (not Joyce)
I offer it in case you receive any comfort or help from it.
Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8). As God incarnate, He decides the true meaning of the Sabbath because He created it, and He is our Sabbath rest in the flesh.
When the Pharisees criticized Him for healing on the Sabbath, Jesus reminded them that even they, sinful as they were, would not hesitate to pull a sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath. Because He came to seek and save His sheep who would hear His voice (John 10:3,27) and enter into the Sabbath rest He provided by paying for their sins, He could break the Sabbath rules.
He told the Pharisees that people are more important than sheep and the salvation He provided was more important than rules. By saying, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27), Jesus was restating the principle that the Sabbath rest was instituted to relieve man of his labors, just as He came to relieve us of our attempting to achieve salvation by our works.
We no longer rest for only one day, but forever cease our laboring to attain God’s favor. Jesus is our rest from works now, just as He is the door to heaven, where we will rest in Him forever.
In Colossians 2:16-17, the apostle Paul declares, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” We are no longer commanded to cease working on the Sabbath, nor is Sunday now the “Christian Sabbath.”
Although many Christians prefer to take Sunday off and spend at least part of it in corporate worship, working on Sunday is not sin. Many Christians, such as doctors, nurses, policemen, and firemen have no choice but to work on Sunday and –as a society– we should be very grateful to them.
But any Believers who work on Sunday should do so with the understanding that worship is not limited to any one day of the week, but is to be an ongoing part of their lives.
”after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right of God” (Hebrews 10:12). Just as He rested after performing the ultimate sacrifice, He sat down and rested—ceased from His labor of atonement because there was nothing more to be done, EVER.
Because of what He did, we no longer have to “labor” in law-keeping in order to be justified in the sight of God.
Should a Christian practice Sabbath-keeping, not working on Saturdays? If he feels led to do so, absolutely, yes (Romans 14:5).
However, those who choose to practice Sabbath-keeping should not judge those who do not keep the Sabbath (Colossians 2:16).
Further, those who do not keep the Sabbath should avoid being a stumbling block (1 Corinthians 8:9) to those who do keep the Sabbath.
Galatians 5:13-15 sums up the whole issue: “You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.”
Hi Dorothy,
Thank you for your response. I do not feel legally bound to Saturday sabbath but I do believe in honoring it. My mission as a certified nutritional education trainer and nutritional chef is all about healing. I teach people how to prevent and reverse disease and dramatically strengthen their immune systems by following Yah’s dietary instructions from the garden and Leviticus. So, I am following in the footsteps of the Master. Even though I work 7 days healing as He did He gives me sweet refreshing sleep and energy. He lifts me up on eagles wings. The harvest is abundant and ripe–time is of the essence!
so glad to hear of how He strengthens you!
10,000 Reasons http://youtu.be/i_AEMF6SPek
Dear Robin,
I will pray for your needed shalom. This will include guidance and direction. I may be stretching here, but it seems to me that there is a difference here between survival and working on Sabbath to exceed plan. However, to throw this in the mix, if you are operating on Sabbath now, doesn’t it follow for buying/selling on Sabbath to be a standard practice going forward?
At least you are asking and seeking and humble enough to admit you do not have all the answers.
Shalom Mary,
Thank you for your response. No, the cafe is closed Sat and Sun but I work the Farmers Market to get the word out. The Farmers Market is only open on Saturday and draws about 2000 to 3000 people which are my of my target market. This healing mission Yah has given me is teaching people how to prevent and reverse disease through His Edenic nutrition plan and some optional flesh according to Leviticus. He has me pulling oxen out of the ditch every day. His blessings to me are sweet sleep and energy while being lifted on wings of an eagle. It is amazing and miraculous!
Hi Robin,
I am really sorry to read of the calamity that has overtaken you. I imagine you are feeling pretty tossed to and fro at the moment.
As a true believer in Y-H you are always being tested and refined to become more fit for Y-H’s purposes. This looks like some serious refining going on here. One day at a time is all the more you can deal with. Y-H is looking at the big picture (creating it really) and we cannot possibly see what He sees. We have to limit ourselves to the here and now of today and continue to depend on Him to see us through. Meanwhile, you still have decisions to make and actions to take. Move onward and keep praying and listening but keep moving!
My husband and I are farmers and have been struggling with keeping the Sabbath as well. I agree with some of Dorothy’s post on this but the Sabbath did NOT fade away. I have come to the belief that we are to observe it as it was commanded to be. There is a thing as greater and lesser teachings. This is what Messiah was demonstrating when he mentioned about getting your ox out of a pit on the Sabbath OR healing someone on the Sabbath.
We all go thru seasons and seasons change. Right now it seems as though you must work a lot just to keep food on the table and a roof over your head. So be it. Keep your focus and one day soon you will be able to fully observe Sabbath again. I am always aware of the day of Sabbath when it is here but cannot always cease from my labors to fully observe it. Does this mean that I lose favor in Y-H’s eyes? No way. Keeping Sabbath is not an issue of salvation but it does have consequences if you don’t keep it. We don’t get the rest and fellowship with Y-H that we are meant to.
Remember that Y-H knows your heart and sees the full picture. You cannot see either in full. Trust Him and take joy and peace in simply serving. The Lord gives and He takes away but He is still Y-H and worthy to be praised! There are blessings everywhere if you have eyes to see them.
Something about your post really pulled at my heart and makes me want to encourage you. These journeys we are each on are very unique to each of us but we are called to fellowship with one another too and I love that about this site. Also, search this site about Sabboth-there are a lot of great posts to think over.
If I lived close to you, I would love to help you out with your restaurant. Are you still in TX? I am pretty much anchored in Ohio so that won’t help you much.
I will pray for you.
Shalom sister
Dawn,
Thank you for your encouraging words! Shalom
~ Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer ~(Psalm 19.14)
Did God (really) say that? Were those (really) God’s instructions? “Don’t eat the fruit?” Why that’s ludicrous! So silly.. Surely (Shirley) God does not really say what He means and mean what He says.. Let me introduce to you Mr. Adam, and to you also – beautiful Eve- the wonderfully useful tools of doubt, division and distraction. Let us all (now) doubt the words of God and His instructions for life- His Torah- His Law. Just because God HAS SAID this, who needs to “heed” (pay attention to) and to “hearken”- (to listen intently and then to execute the instructions) the word of the LORD? After all.. Who is is charge here? You or Him? Are you not capable of your own way? Can you not “find your own way in this world?”- Save yourself. After all, Adam- you are #1! and Eve- “surely” in the day that you eat of it- “YOU SHALL NOT” surely die!
What was (he inquired) the source of the words: “You shall not surely die?” Who said these words? First doubting, then direct contradiction- from “shall” to “shall not!”
Now, who are you going to believe? The Creator? or some created being? And as someone -somewhere has said.. “lo, and behold”- (Ahhh.. the “aha moment!”) the created being who said “you shall not” turns out to be a what? A LIAR. And not only a liar- but the “father of all lies!”
Yes, we really should examine, test, and pay attention to *the source* a little closer.. Now the great French philosopher said.. uhh.. Well.. how about Ben Franklin said..or Martha Stewart suggests… Ahhh… Martha! You sure can set a table!
Dummy! Knuckle-dragging neandrathals! When God speaks!!! (Kicking and screaming..)
Has God given His word to us? and ~ the word of the LORD endures forever..~
Yes. THE question remains- forever- “Hath God said?”
Do YOU (adamah or isha) believe the Bible is the written word of God?
~ IT IS WRITTEN ~ (spoken by WHO?- and to whom?- and the end result (you want results?) was?
Victory. Complete and total. “someone” went away that day- limping and wounded. Pierced (wonderfully so) by the sword of the LORD- the sword that proceeded out of His mouth- we will see that sword again one day at the battle of Armageddon.
Do YOU (adamah or isha) believe “God HAS said?” God has spoken? Did God instruct our (not-so-great-not-so-grand) parents: “DO NOT EAT THE FRUIT OF THIS TREE?”
Were the instructions of Elohim complicated? or unclear? Was He not capable of communicating this request to the creatures He created? What part of “DO NOT” was unclear?
Enter the Dragon. And the very first introduction to mankind of the element “doubt.”
Do you believe me? No. I doubt what you’re saying is true.
Is God (ever or even) capable of a lie? Just asking. And your answer is? (helpful household hint… “it is written”)
Maybe, there are those among us who have never heard:
~ God is not a human who lies or a mortal who changes his mind. When He says something, He will do it; when He makes a promise, He will fulfill it ~ (Numbers 23.19)
or this:
~ and the word of the LORD endures/remains forever ~
or this:
~ Your word is a lamp to guide my feet and a light for my path ~
Was our Savior (who is Truth Incarnate!- and the Living Word!) speaking the truth when He said: ~ you do err- not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God?
Now peeps.. “what if?”
What if- Adam or Eve or “both” had said unto the serpent (back in the day) YESSS!!! God DID say that? Those were His direct-clear-precise instructions- “don’t eat the fruit!” (and thank you for reminding us!)
But. (such a sad but) “alas”- (this is an expression of woe, kids) they did not. And as a result of their disobedience (this is called “sin” kids)- they were both asked to leave the first paradise.
Paradise lost. What a tear-filled time that must have been. Were these the first ever tears of a human? And these tears were the direct result of what? (may I?) Tears caused by sin. ~ and the wages of sin is?
Death. Separation. Sadness-sickness-stress- “all of the above..”
Does this have to end here? or is this sad story just the beginning?
Enter the Second Adam. – And now.. – for the rest of the story!
Christ our LORD is risen today, Alleluia!
Earth and Heaven in chorus say, Alleluia!
Raise your joys and triumphs high, Alleluia!
Sing, ye heavens, and Earth reply, Alleluia!
Love’s redeeming work is done, Alleluia!
Fought the fight, the battle won, Alleluia!
Death in vain forbids Him rise, Alleluia!
Christ has opened paradise, Alleluia!
Lives again our glorious King, Alleluia!
Where, O death, is now thy sting? Alleluia!
Once He died our souls to save, Alleluia!
Where’s thy victory/boasting, grave? Alleluia!
Soar we now where Christ has led, Alleluia!
Following our exalted Head, Alleluia!
Made like Him, like Him we rise, Alleluia!
Ours the cross, the grave, the skies, Alleluia!
Hail the LORD of Earth and Heaven, Alleluia!
Praise to Thee by “both” be given, Alleluia!
Thee we greet triumphant now, Alleluia!
Hail the Resurrection, thou, Alleluia!
King of glory, soul of bliss, Alleluia!
Everlasting life is this, Alleluia!
Thee to know, Thy power to prove, Alleluia!
Thus to sing, and thus to love, Alleluia!
We gain far more *in Christ* the second Adam than we ever lost in the first.
~No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us ~ (Romans 8.37)
Question: – “if” (since) ~ His love endures forever ~ When did He (ever) stop loving us?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hzYKovRsJ8
Question: – “if” (since) ~ His love endures forever ~ When did He (ever) stop loving us?
This is an amazing question Carl!! I love how this pretty much cuts thru all of the BS.
I love the rest of your “story” too. You have a way with words for sure. 🙂
“It was fitting that God . . . should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering” Heb. 2:10
We could sum up the earthly life of Jesus in this one phrase. He was made “perfect through suffering.” But why did Jesus need to be “made perfect” through suffering? Wasn’t He perfect when He arrive as an infant in Bethlehem? Didn’t He live a sinless life? Wasn’t His death the death of an innocent lamb/man? Yes. He was morally perfect.
But there is another kind of perfection or completion that comes only by experience. Jesus entered fully into the sufferings of this world and emerged VICTORIOUS over every last one of them! He was completed in His experience on the earth by the things He suffered. That may be why He is called the “author” of our salvation. He wrote it, lived it, and it has been written down for us. We want to follow a successful example, we follow Him straight on to glory.
The trail is rated “difficult, but worth it”. It is blazed (marked) with suffering, sorrow, tears, and rejection, and it leads to the cross. A cross is always a point when you decide to follow Him no matter what, or turn back. He wants us to be sure we have decided to follow Him.
Anyone who follows will end up where He did – crucified by those who hate you because they hated Him first. He is not just leading us to heaven. He is leading us to glory. Yes, there is glory at the end of a life devoted to Jesus Christ. (Ours the cross, the grave, the skies, Alleluia!) He came from heaven to show us the way, and lived so we’d know what to expect, and we might as well expect to have to be made complete thru suffering, just like Him.
That explains so much that happens to us and what He is doing in your life and in mine.
We are being refined like silver (Psalm 66:10).
Like gold being put to great heat to remove all its impurities (1 Peter 1:7).
It causes us to grow and mature into strong disciples who truly live by faith in Him, not by what we see (2 Cor. 5:7).
Take comfort in the assurance that God will never allow us to be tested beyond what we are able to handle (1 Cor. 10:13).
Thank you Dorothy for this read.
Uplifting the LORD lifts our spirits to soar.
GOD BLESS YOU
Jesus did not want to die. He did not want to suffer the torture of Crucifixion. He was smart. He could have skipped out of Jerusalem and started up again someplace else. Jesus always confessed God is Greater than He. Jesus doesn’t know the Day, the Angels don’t know the Day. Only God knows the Day.
Then said he to them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.
And he came unto the disciples, and finds them asleep, and said unto Peter, What, could you not watch with me one hour?
Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done.
And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Matthew 26
Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
And he said to her, What do you want? She sad to him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on your right hand, and the other on the left, in your kingdom.
But Jesus answered and said, You know not what you ask. Are you able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
And he said to them, You shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Matthew 20
Jesus did not claim to be the Final Authority. While in the Flesh, as Jesus was fully Human as we are, keep it in the proper perspective.
Since we are finite, dumb sheep, (speaking for myself) we cannot–or should not–expect to totally comprehend an Infinite God.
Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). That does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, it was in order that He, God, could become a human being in ADDITION to being God (John 1:1, 14).
After sin entered the picture, God and man have been separated. (drum roll) But then came Jesus: (Praise Him!) The Incarnate Word is BOTH God and man. Unless a man believes in Him as Savior, the separation will remain. There is no other way than the way He has provided. Extreme, radical, One Way-ism, extremely mind-blowing!
Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, He had to have a body in order to pay the required price of our redemption, He died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11).
Jesus is both fully human and fully Divine, there is no dilution of either nature, and that He is one united (sweet) Person, forever.
Of course He didn’t “want to suffer and die”! My totally, cowardly, sissy humanity witnesses to that fact! O, yeah.
If He did ‘want to’, that would convince me He is not who He said He is, — so the recorded text proves to me He is fully human.
To be willing and ABLE to take my place, proves to me He IS God, for such love is only Divine. The human side cannot muster it up, for a loved one, perhaps, for the really bad sinners like me, no way.
Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit
I also am a Child of God conceived by the Holy Spirit. You are too.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them HE GAVE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD. (Holy Spirit)
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
HE WAS NOT THAT LIGHT, but was sent TO BEAR WITNESS of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.
John 1
In the Spirit of God TODAY, the one sent from God could be John, Tom, Dick, Harry Skip, Mary, Jane or Sue.
We are not that Light, but we bear Witness of that Light.
my brother, we agree! 🙂
Is it worth remarking that if your statement about “Unless a man believes in Him as Savior, the separation will remain.” would suggest that Abraham isn’t in God’s Kingdom? Is it worth noting that your description of the fully human/fully divine nature as undiluted is based in Greek concepts of “person”? Should we question (just a bit) the statement that Jesus became human in order to identify with us (is that the extent of the incarnation?)? NOt wanting to start a theological argument, but it seems to me that what you have provided is the standard Christian answer and tends to ignore all of the Jewishness of Jesus and His role as Messiah.
O, I think you do want to start theological arguments with Christians, not the others.
So you are saying Jesus’ Divine nature WAS diluted, or that His human nature was, or the He was not fully both, or what exactly?
I didn’t say nor imply His incarnation’s ‘extent’ was so He could identify, but I did give ch. and vs so readers would know it is written and I am not making up random things.
I don’t have time to write a complete book. We already have one written anyway.
Abraham was saved by looking forward to God’s provision just the same as we are saved by looking back. Calvary covered it all.
How, exactly is one saved by looking forward to something that hasn’t happened yet? It would seem that if a salvific event, yet to be realized, can be effected by a simple promise, then isn’t the saving quality in the one promising, not in the event?
I have heard the “looking forward to and looking back” explanation for many years. I have never really understood the validity of it. It just seemed to be words. It still does. I still can’t grasp how it can be true.
Can I or anyone act on a promise as if true if it hasn’t been enacted yet? Shall I act saved, as in Abrahams case or others pre-Yeshua, even though I am not, only yet to be? That puts HaShem pretending regarding the patriarchs salvation, doesn’t it? Promised, but not yet. Assured, but, nonetheless, the paperwork hasn’t been signed, sealed and delivered as yet. If I had a contract like that, it would be difficult to rest until I knew it was finished, even within the timespan of my short life time, let alone millennia.
Either HaShem considered Abraham righteous when he was living or HaShem didn’t based on what was true then, it seems to me. Otherwise, what is the need for the something looked forward to. All we need is to put our weight on His promise, that being sufficient even if the ‘event’ looked forward to didn’t take place for 5,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 years from now. The promise that it would would be enough to save Abraham according to your premise, right?
Or…the saving event could have happened ‘before the foundation’ as Skip is presenting. It still holds a lot more water Scripturally than the ‘looking forward/looking back’ explanation. The slaying before the foundation of the world answers and addresses the Abraham and related salvation issues prior to Yeshua’s death on the cross much more soundly and sufficiently than does the ‘looking forward/looking back’ explanation I’ve heard most all my life.
And if anyone seems to want to start an argument, which, by the way, done correctly, is a very good and effective path to the truth which we are all earnestly seeking, then you, Dorothy, must be included as well.
Just saying. Not negatively, just objectively.
“O, I think you do want to start theological arguments with Christians, not the others.”
Whaaaa…? What Christians are you speaking of? Is this prelude to an argumentative statement? It seems the nature of this topic is attempting to address issues that ‘Christians’ have advocated for years, decades, and centuries. I am one of those. I have real questions and real concerns to find out what, why and how things have been explained that somehow just don’t add up. Can those issues be addressed, questioned and challenged? Or not? If not, then we will spiral in to who knows what. Nothing good I would think.
Could it be the ‘slaying before the foundation of the world’ is simply the exact nature of HaShem. His hesed naturally demonstrates and plays out in loving and righteous forgiveness based on Himself. Any sacrifice needed is unquestionably provided by Himself alone, the only ONE capable to do so. Forgiveness originates for the one forgiving, a choice, not as a result of any sacrifice. It seems the better understanding of Yeshua’s sacrificial death was to break through the insurmountable death barrier we face caused by our sin, as I seem to understand Skip’s premise, than to it being the basis of haShem’s forgiveness/hesed, something He has the power and ability to do with choice alone clothes in His hesed.
If that is argumentative, please forgive me. I’d much rather argue this issue until I die than to continue to blindly accept what I’m told in various ‘christian’ circles which I’ve so cherished for so many years. I’m not trying to shoot the messenger, just verify the messages being presented with the premise that rebuttal is ill advised.
By the way, Yeshua argued quite effectively and powerfully, all in line with Torah truths. He pushed back not to destroy but to herald life to those misunderstanding what they had been told and directed toward. Look at the “Yeshua cancelled Sabbath” argument. He did no such thing, but that’s what I’ve been told by ‘Christians’ for years and years and years.
And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
And he said unto them, Have you never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungry, he, and they that were with him?
How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2
And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.
And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
The Lord then answered him, and said, You hypocrite, does not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luke 13
In my personal Faith, I have come to that Day of Rest, now knowing it is God that does the works and not I, lest I should boast.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 4
Shalom Ray,
We are in the 6th Day, still labouring into that Day of rest on the 7th Day.
We are to keep occupied lest we be found unworthy when Meshiach returns, but, ABBA is so gracious to us giving us the ONE weekly day of rest, to draw closer to Him, to be cleansed from all the pollution we have been exposed to during the week.
Blessings to you!
That 7th Day is an Eternal Day Ester
A 1000 years to God is the same as a Day for a human it is written. The Bible history from the Garden is now 6000 years, or 6 Days in God’s Timeline.
I would say that in the last 6000 years or 6 Days, through the Bible, God did create this world, or at a minimum, influenced it greatly, shaping it’s path toward the Day when God Judges the Nations.
Temporal Israel, recreated from the Bible after an absence of some 3000 years, has a hugely disproportionate influence in present Day world power and affairs relative to it’s size and all other Nations.
By that 1000 years=1 Day Timeline, we have arrived at the 3rd Day when Christ will rise again. The great falling away has happened/is happening. What kind of Ambassadors of Christ are we? Some people love God for God’s power. God’s power is Love.
When Pope John Paul I abdicated the Crown and Throne after 1000 years of Catholic tradition, I saw that as a Spiritual symbol of a shift in power signalling the Advent of Christ coming closer to the People.
I look forward with eager anticipation to the continuing Revelation of Jesus Christ being revealed in this world.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.
Revelation 10
Saying, We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which is, and was, and is to come; because you have taken to yourself your great power, and have reigned.
And the nations were angry, and your wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that you should give reward to your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 11
Michael C-True!
A commandment is a commandment, which can ONLY be broken in the case of life threatening scenarios.
Ray,
I’ve read the Scripture. In fact, those are the verses I was referring to. What us your point?
Michael, I thought my comment was completing yours, putting in the actual verses you were referring to. I saw you didn’t, and there are many more people than you and I visiting this site.
Peace
Ok, thanks Ray.
Wasn’t sure.
Appreciate it.
“Since the Greek-based culture is a kingdom of the mind, it follows the course of the serpent. ”
This statement is so revealing.
1 Cor 1:10 …that you all agree and there be no divisions among you but that you be knit together in the same MIND and in the same judgement/gnōmē:-
1) the faculty of knowledge, mind, reason
2) that which is thought or known, one’s mind
a) view, judgment, opinion
b) mind concerning what ought to be done
1) by one’s self: resolve purpose, intention
2) by others: judgment, advice
3) decree
Most of us were at one time Christians, not knowing better, being doped by leaders who know no better as well, neither in Greek nor Hebrew to grasp the actual context the Scriptures were written in.
We are reading the translations, which are not accurate, as often ‘lost in translations’ is the case, and worse, agenda-rized, if there is such a word, to man’s whims and fancies.
The battle is in our minds, with what we hear, receive, accept, and adapt to.
If we desire to have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying, and not from man’s teachings nor understanding, as our carnal minds are at enmity with YHWH’s, we would not be striving with each other.
The problem is, we presume we know so much and are unwilling to let go as in a process of learning all the way along the journey of life, so much to be corrected and refocused upon.
And we do have clear instructions to follow in the Bible as we allow those who diligently hunger for the truth of the written/translated Word, to share with us what they have discovered-the hidden treasures.
We need to appreciate these vessels that ABBA are using to guide us to deeper, more concrete truths.
Our foundations in Christianity have not been sound, so the process of rebuilding is now in progress! HalleluYAH!
Restore to us a right Spirit-mind, and a sound sense of discernment, ABBA! We are so in need of this!
Amein!
Its almost like watching a Bible scene come to life again, — Paul in Jerusalem, the Jews bound not eat or drink until they killed Paul for teaching Jesus instead of law Acts 23: 12, Felix trembled before Paul as he expounded JESUS, not Torah. 24:25
Luke 24:27
Paul couldn’t expound Yeshua better than Yeshua could expound on Himself.
Yeshua used Torah to explain everything about Himself.
As did Paul.
They started with Moses and all the prophets to explain Yeshua.
Whenever Paul taught about Yeshua, he spoke Torah.
Torah.
Yeshua came to fulfill Torah. Torah’s purpose is found in Yeshua.
Torah’s origin is Yeshua. His Words. His purpose. His life.
Torah.
Not an English, French, German, Dutch, Spanish, or Russian translation.
Hebrew/Aramaic Torah.
Michael C-
Rightly so! Amein! Well expressed.
An apt post by Derek Leman.
Someone asked me a good question last night. He’s been to a few Messianic synagogues now and is trying to understand from a Christian point of view what Jewish life in Messiah is all about.
He said, “Do you guys celebrate the Torah more than Messiah?”
The heart of this question could be framed in more than one way, but put most simply it could be, “Why Yeshua (Jesus)?” or “What difference does Yeshua make?”
In the broad movement of Messianic Jews and Christians with a love for Judaism it might seem that the place of Yeshua is diminished. Maybe we think we are an enlightened bunch and that Torah brings us close to God so that Yeshua simply adds the finishing touch, bringing us the last small distance to complete our journey to God.
Or, considered from the view of others, mainstream Jews and people of a secular mindset, perhaps what Messianic Judaism is all about is religion with a touch of Yeshua. The Yeshua part might not really be all that important, more like a denominational difference. The Orthodox have their rigid halachah. The Conservative have their tradition and Torah. The Reform have their spirituality. The Messianics have this Yeshua guy.
Nothing could be further from the truth. It is our strongly held belief that Yeshua is the center, the necessary redeemer, the beginning and end of rigtheousness. Torah is not simply the religion and Yeshua the faith part. Torah is Yeshua and Yeshua is Torah. For Christians, who are not called to keep the identity markers of Torah than separate Israel from the nations (circumcision, dietary law, Sabbath, etc.), we might say Yeshua is the Way and the Way is Yeshua (with “way” meaning God’s way of life).
Insufficient Goals and Diagnoses
What difference does Yeshua make? For many the answer would be, “Not much.”
This is a problem for many people considering the identity and aims of Yeshua. To some Christians (and Messianic Jews), Yeshua is simply the Moses-like leader of the religion. He is a teacher, primarily, and his way is justice, love, and redemptive love.
He certainly is all of that, but that is insufficient. It fails to come close to the identity of Yeshua, his purpose and the gift that his coming is for humanity.
I submit to you that many of us are guilty of inadequate views of the loftiness of God’s purpose for us, insufficient views of our low condition, and meager views of the Direct Being of God.
It is a myth that we, as humanity, are close to the goal already. A little evolution, a little progress in culture and knowledge, and — it is thought — we will reach the goal.
Not only is this too low a view of the goal. It is unrealistic about our ability to achieve anything. We may have iPads now, but we have not eliminated any of humanity’s evils including slavery and forced prostitution. We are still Vikings at heart. We plunder and rape and terrorize with varying means, some of them more civilized than others, but we’ve made zero progress on the truly important things. If you doubt this, perhaps it is because you have a good heart and you think the best of others. Look around. Take off the rosy spectacles.
And even if it were true that humanity was moving toward peace and harmony, that would be a paradise far smaller than the one God has planned. There are desires universally present in humanity far greater than world peace. We see a world without death. We imagine a land of unspoiled beauty, endless love, and joyful singing that goes on without end. Beauty, truth, and goodness are all that exist there and we know it is a real place, though we cannot attain it. And what really makes it Paradise is the total and unrestrained togetherness with the Eternal Father, the Source and Ground of our being, the Infinite One whose greatness is beyond all imagining and whom we intuitively know to be our Creator.
The Necessary Connection
If we view our condition realistically and if we believe in the World to Come, that Elysian kingdom we intuit, we must also understand the infiniteness of God.
It is not as if our reason, our religious affections, our practice of Torah or justice or love could bring us within range of his Being.
As a parabola draws near but never reaches the line, so God in his Direct Being is beyond knowing. Christian mystics have said he is surrounded by a cloud of unknowing. Jewish mystics have called him the Ein Sof, the Without End.
So why do we talk about him at all, then? If he is beyond our knowing, who can say anything about him?
That is what Judaism and Christianity have been about all along — the belief that God has sent manifestations of his Being, emanations from his Infiniteness, that we can grasp and understand.
There are too many examples to recount them all here. The Glory of God appeared in various forms to the ancient Israelites. They heard the voice from heaven and the voice spoke through prophets. Light and voice were emanations, manifestations of the Direct Being of God, lower forms which we finite mortals can understand and which can lift us up closer to the Infinite One.
And at a certain point in history, we Messianic Jews and Christians claim, God sent the ultimate manifestation, the summation of all the emanations, the Glory and Voice and Word and Wisdom and Presence and Power all wrapped into one. His name is Yeshua.
Now, it is a different matter, and not my concern here, to give evidence that Yeshua is this Radiance of the Being of God. All I am trying to do here is explain why Yeshua is necessary, glorious, and the Wisdom of his followers.
If we want to ascend to heights beyond simple evolution or cultural progress; if we want to have a world based on beauty, truth, and goodness; if we attain to a perfect world in union with the Infinite One, then only something he does can bring us there.
The Necessary Way
I think we should reject any language to the effect of, “God had to.” Sometimes people speak of the way Yeshua made a connection between us and God as if this was the way God was constrained to do it.
People will say, “God had to become a man. The God-man had to die. God had to raise him.”
It is better to realize that God has infinite paths available. What matters is what God did do.
We might not be intellectually satisfied with some explanation we have heard of Yeshua. The dying and rising Messiah might not seem infinite enough to us. It’s only because we don’t understand.
The way God did do it was to join humanity and deity in a person. The way God did do it was through weakness and not strength. The way God did do it was to take on our pain and experience of death, injustice, condemnation for sin, and suffering.
Our approval or disapproval is as fruitless as protesting gravity or thermodynamics.
You must be born from above, Yeshua told us. Only one has descended from heaven and ascended. I go before you to prepare a place. Where I am you will be. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Son of Man will come to shepherd the nations. Mourners will be comforted. The hungry will be filled. The pure will see God. No one has seen God. The Son has made him known.
Yeshua is not an addition to Torah. Yeshua is not the finishing touch added to religious ethics. Yeshua is not the denominational distinctive of Christianity and Messianic Judaism. Yeshua is the center, for those who realize and for those who don’t. He is present in many things, not just churches. Judaism has mystically described him and included him unknowingly in ritual and song. Christianities as diverse as the world’s creatures have formed around him.
While I may, or may not agree with Mr. Leman in the totality of his statements, I do agree with this, ” Torah is Yeshua and Yeshua is Torah”.
Dorothy, when you constantly demean what is translated as the law, you do far more than state a theological stance. You demean the messiah Jesus/Yeshua as well. They are one and the same. Perhaps with this in mind, you’ll tread a bit more carefully in your statements regarding the very words of God as revealed to men.
I agree. Strongly.
Thanks, Robert.
Robert — You are welcome to say how you see differently than I, (and I am not a lone ranger, btw.)
But this particular post I am going to have to speak on for dignity’s sake.
Seeing I do not jump on the posts you make (excepting this one now) with a ruler in my hand to rap your knuckles with as if I were the only one who can understand the Bible, — I appeal to you to be shown that same courtesy.
I want to state emphatically that I love Christ and the Jewish people, and I have a right to speak of what God reveals to me, as I see it.
I am not a newcomer to Bible reading. I am not condemning every other view in the world or even as presented on this blog.
When I differ I will say so, as do you. But you go into judgment on how I “constantly demean scripture” …. I beg you saintly pardon– but I DO NOT.
If at any time some Word I quote convicts you somehow that is nothing to do with me.
I request that you stop accusing me, — there already exists an accuser of the brethren.
Jesus is my Saviour. He has borne my burdens to Calvary, and He is my Father, my High Tower, my “Statue of Liberty”, and much, much more..
He has done all I could not, nor even have the inkling to do. I live Godly because He lives in me. In case there is anyone who thinks my thoughts on law mean
that I blaspheme, steal, murder, gossip, am slothful, turn my back on those in need, or any of the other things I hate and that God hates.
On the other hand, I do things I wish I didn’t do. miserable. But there is Jesus always and He saves me from myself. Otherwise there would be no hope for
any or us, specifically me.
I would like to dwell in peace with everyone and as far as it is possible with me, I will.
I will also tell you when you are stepping on my personal toes, which is why I am writing now.
Here is the Law of Christ. (Gal. 6: 2) I won’t write it out now — each man enjoy your own versions.
“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:2-3)
Paul tells the Galatians that not only justification, but sanctification also is not by the Law of works, but by a law of faith, a law in which we do not do in order to be saved, but we receive (hear) by faith: “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” (Romans 3:27) Is it a law of works by which we are justified?
No, but by the law of faith!
Thus he says the law of faith is not a law of works; it’s not a set of rules to be kept in order to be saved.
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.” (Romans 11:6)
Paul explains this again in Galatians: “And the law is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them.” (3:12).
The meaning of the word “law“
First, the word law in the New Testament does not always mean a law of works or of commandments.
For many people the word law makes them only think of a set of “do”s and “don’t”s.
But I see from the above verses the law of faith is not a law of works; in fact, on the contrary, these vs. contrast the law of faith is with the Law of works.
Then what do I think the word law mean in such contexts? It means principle. It is about the principle that governs how things happen in a certain system.
Paul uses this word law in the sense of principle in many places in the New Testament; I will list some passages where this meaning is obvious for the word law:
In Romans 7, Paul explains how there is in him a nature of sin, the flesh, in which nothing good dwells (see Romans 7:18), and which is governed by a very bad law: “I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.” (Romans 7:21)
A man I trust on this says: “The NASB translators rightly translated here the Greek word for law (nomon) as principle. It is obvious that Paul is not talking about the Law of God here, because he said in the same chapter that the Law of God is holy, not bad (see Rom. 7:12). It is also obvious that Paul is not talking about a certain set of rules and commandments that are to be kept by Paul, but about the principle of sin which is in him.
Paul further explains this fact in Romans 8 where more than one law or principle are mentioned: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh”
(Rom. 8:2-3)
And reading today’s/Sunday’s blog, I not only think one of the regular bloggers was guided here to this site, and I know that I was, too.
O my, — words from a Christian view that might be God’s plan for some to hear!
Yes, it might be.
Its almost like watching a Bible scene come to life again, — Paul in Jerusalem, the Jews bound not eat or drink until they killed Paul for “teaching Jesus instead of law” Acts 23: 12, Felix trembled before Paul as he expounded “JESUS, not Torah”. 24:25
Note the parentheses, (added by me) this is not law translated as a “principle” but rather a direct reference to the Law of God. These are your own words Dorothy, I wasn’t judging you, only responding to your post.
Who’s doing the accusing? I would simply ask, again, that you take into consideration your words, and weigh them carefully before you throw them out there. Again. if you want to reveal who yeshua is, there’s no other paradigm given than torah and the prophets, and if you want to define Torah, look at Yeshua, what He did and does, He’s the fullness (end) of the law. There’s no other way given.
already had this prepared:
Jesus the Messiah
“Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him shall ye hearken; according to all that you desire of Jehovah thy God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And Jehovah said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. A prophet will I raise up unto them from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass that the man who hearkens not unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:15-19)
The promised Prophet would be from among the children of Israel (“from the midst of thee”). So, from the children of Israel.
This was explained by the prophets of the Old Covenant: That the Messiah would be the son of Jacob
(Num. 24:17, Gen. 35:10-12), the son of Judah (Gen. 49:10, Micah 5:2), the son of Jesse (Isa. 11:1,10), the son of David (Jer.23:5-6, 2 Sam. 7:12-16, Ps. 132:11).
Well, Jacob is called Israel, and Judah, Jesse and David are all children of Israel. So the promised Prophet would be a child of Israel.
The promised Prophet would be like Moses. All the prophets who came after Moses were not perfectly the promised Prophet, but only symbolized Him, as they all were under the Mosaic Old Covenant.
This coming Prophet should bring a Covenant just as Moses brought the Old Covenant. The Law was given through Moses, and this Old Covenant was explained by all Old Covenant prophets, but the promised Prophet would bring another Covenant by bringing the Grace and the truth and the fulfillment of the Law.
And this is how the prophets explained this promise of a Prophet like Moses: That He would be the Lord of Moses coming as a Messenger like Moses to make a New Covenant: “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.” (Mal. 3:1)
According to this prophecy, this promised Prophet is the Lord, and the Temple is HIS Temple; He will send another messenger before Him (remember John the Baptist) and then He will come as the Messenger of the Covenant, and He will make a New Covenant with His people.
”Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The New Covenant which this promised Prophet would bring would be in a way that the Law will be written on the hearts of those who are under it, and it will bring the eternal forgiveness of sins; so it will not be like the Covenant that was made through Moses, and thus it will be a NEW Covenant, and all the prophets of the New Covenant will be following the promised Prophet (the Messiah) instead of Moses (the Prophet of the Old Covenant). So this is how the promised Prophet is like Moses, unlike all the other prophets of the Old Covenant who followed the Covenant of Moses.
‘new’ covenant of Jer 31:31- chadashah – חדשה – can mean “fresh, rebuilt, renewed” not replaced. One covenant does not negate a former covenant, simply renews and refreshes components. Those who know (yada) Him are those that do what reflects His character, His essence, His ways as delineated in Torah, that which Yeshua demonstrated, He put flesh on His instructions (His Torah) and dramatically states those who know (yada) him will be the very ones that DO Torah outwardly because they know יהוה inwardly. It isn’t head knowledge it is actionable knowledge that can be seen in their very behavior. Moses isn’t negated neither is the covenant יהוה made with Israel. It is fulfilled, purposed completed in Yeshua. He dwells within us as we walk in His ways, Torah, and become His sons and daughters. A son/daughter is one who mimics, emulates, copies everything their master does. Yeshua proved the perfect son by emulating everything יהוה did. Shaul was Yeshua’s son because Shaul emulated Yeshau as Timothy did Shaul. All sons of their master because they knew (yada) their master. They were driven not by an external code but an internal drive given them by the ruach (wind, breath, ‘spirit’) of the Master of masters – Yeshua, laid out in instructions contained in Torah.
There is absolutely no need to denigrate what our Elohim gave Moses as Yeshau filled up the purpose and gave substance to the shadow. When we look back at Torah we see it fulfilled, filled up, finished in Yeshua. Yeshua came to fulfill Torah. How can He then destroy and replace it? With what new thing? Torah contains the very words of יהוה. Yeshua is going to destroy that? And replace it with what?
The renewed covenant bodes that which brings expression of life to that which began at Sinai (and actually earlier via previous covenants of יהוה) for the people of Israel and through them to the nations of the world. That which culminated in, by and through Yeshua.
Yeshua was the Torah embodied. There is no conflict.
Yes, Gabe. No conflict.
I absolutely agree too, Gabe.
Yeshua means YAH-saves, i.e. through YAH is our salvation come.
Yeshua is the AlephTav revealed in the Hebrew text right from the beginning, not translated in the English text, but, revealed as translated Alpha Omega in Greek- The Beginning and the End.
Paul further explains this fact in Romans 8 where more than one law or principle are mentioned: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh”
(Rom. 8:2-3)
This seems to be exactly what Skip has been trying to demonstrate regarding the death of Yeshua not being for forgiveness of sin, stating that was accomplished by the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth and thus being granted entirely by haShem’s grace reckoned to us by our actionable faith (example: Abraham’s attempt to bring down the knife on his son, NOT just telling haShem he believed). Righteousness was reckoned to Abraham upon his believing trust not by any works but by tangible and visible and viable actions that verified his belief, the swinging of the knife towards killing his only son. James 1:18 – “But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Faith without verifying actions isn’t faith, but merely damning words.
Paul:
The ruach (wind, breath, ‘spirit’) of life in Yeshua haMessiach- His ruach freed me from the power, penalty and result of sin, that is, death. haShem’s instructions couldn’t do it for us as we have free will to choose life and death, yetzer tov (inclination to good[life]) or yetzer hara (inclination to evil[death]). Torah simply show us the way, tudors us toward life, we have to choose, as did Adam and his wife Havah. They chose death.
Torah is good, perfect and life. But when sifted through weak flesh, choosing yetzer hara merely once causes death to reign, period. Death always wins as it is simple the result that resides in choosing that which is contrary to haShem path, His way, Torah. Death affects every person, not because they inherit it from their fathers and mothers, but simply because everyone does it. Period. Everyone allows the beast that knocks at the door, sin, to rule over them, instead of conquering it. It only takes one time and death then reigns.
If I could, or you could, or anyone could just not sin, death would not be able to conquer us. Alas, NO one has been able to accomplish that task save ONE.
“God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (Yeshua-the Memra/the Word), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh”
Yeshua, choosing the yetzer tov every single opportunity between choosing life and death, physically died – just like everyone else of flesh. BUT – having never erred in fulfilling Torah, the Tree of Life, death had absolutely no power over him. Death had nothing to condemn Yeshua with. NO one had ever faced death down and won before. Yeshua did it. Death was now vanquished. It was powerless for those that walked the path that followed, mimicked, emulated Torah, haShem’s instructions for life as clearly, totally, effectively demonstrated by Yeshua.
Thus, when Yeshua died, He killed death for those that are His sons and daughters evidenced by His ruach residing in them that expressed it so through their faith that was, like Abraham’s, visibly demonstrated by actions that reflected outwardly what His Word tells them within their neshamah (life soul breath). They are tutored by Torah what pleases haShem and they DO it. Thus demonstrate His ruach (breath, life) is in them.
Yeshua took care of what was needed to forgive us before the foundation of the world when the lamb was slain. It’s been the vehicle haShem utilizes at His choice to reckon righteousness to man who faith Him, or live by His Torah within and without, listening to His external instructions for life and choosing them internally in their doing.
Yeshua took care of the bad result of sin, that is death, on the cross, forever for those faithing in His Word, Torah.
Pretty simple…powerful…amazing…awesome.
Romans 8:2-3 – thanks Shaul. Makes sense.
Now I will point out some things for you.
God calls something that is not as though it was.
I can supply more, but here’s one example: Eph. 2: 6
God has raised us up together and made us sit in heavenly places. In vs 1-5, the discussion is about the fact that we are spiritually dead before salvation and God then quickens us and raises us up.
Well, where are you as you read this right now? Are you sitting in a heavenly places in Christ Jesus? Nope! not done yet. God sees us already up there seated with Christ.
Vs. 7, speaks of “ages to come” which is speaking of eternity where He will show the church as His redeemed by His Grace. We are not yet in Heaven because the last day has not come and there are still Elect to be saved. But God already sees us in Heaven,–good as done– seated with Christ.
He is calling what is not yet as though it was.
God already sees everything as happened and He speaks of it in that language. This is why when He states that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, He is stating that it is as good as done.
We are familiar with it as “walking by faith and not by sight.”
Christ bore our sins on the cross AT CALVARYand not before the foundations of the world.
1 Peter states that Christ bore our sins on the cross and coupled with that by His stripes we were healed. We receive spiritual healing for our dead souls. He made them alive. The scourging and the crucifixion were one cohesive event which brought about the salvation of the Elect and that was done on the cross on Calvary, in time and not eternity.
Which one of the angels in heaven whipped Christ (spiritually?) for our healing? It gets more ridiculous as we try to place the forgiveness of sins as something done (mentally?). As you can see, I don’t even know what to call it!
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when He comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: vs. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death IN THE FLESH, but quickened by the Spirit. ! Peter 3: 18
Michael C, I meant for my post to go directly into our discussion line, I forgot to hit “reply”, go see it
Dorothy,
I don’t know where you want me to look?
ha ha ha haha …excuse me, I’m so dumb on this…(not on everything.)
Its the one that appears to be in the right place, — I am laughing so hard at myself.
It looks like this, posted this morning, here is the beginning:
Gosh I’m sorry, and you probably already read it.
But anyway, now we have exchanged views on this, and I don’t see any need to continue beating the horse to death, so we’ll move on from here — at least I’m going to. 🙂
June 24, 2013 at 11:47 am
Now I will point out some things for you.
God calls something that is not as though it was.
I can supply more, but here’s one example: Eph. 2: 6
Yep, I read it. Look all over for it, and, BAM, there is was three posts up!