Beating the Dead Horse
For out of Zion shall go the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore. O house of Jacob, come, let us walk in the light of the Lord. For you have rejected your people, the house of Jacob, because they are full of things from the east and of fortune-tellers like the Philistines, and they strike hands with the children of foreigners. Isaiah 2:3b-6 ESV
The law – Come now. Tell me, “What goes forth from Zion in the latter days?” The Law! Torah! If you are willing to claim that this prophecy is truly about the end of the age, the Messianic rule, then how can you go on to claim that the Law, the Torah, has no place in the Kingdom? On what basis will the Lord judge between the nations? On how He feels on that day? Why will the nations beat their swords into plowshares? Because they respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit in their hearts? How is it possible to read Paul as one who discarded the Law in favor of grace when Isaiah tells us that the Millennial Kingdom will be governed by Torah?
Oh, and just one more small problem. Did you see that part of verse 6 where Israel is castigated for striking bargains with the children of the goyim? What would that look like in Isaiah’s day? Do you suppose that making deals with the foreigners was the equivalent of adopting their world views and rejecting God’s? Given Isaiah’s prophetic look at the Millennium, what do you think he would say about changing the Sabbath, throwing out the dietary regulations, redefining circumcision or conforming business practices to the world? If God is coming to judge us according to Torah, where will the replacement Church stand?
I suppose you could find a way to argue that Isaiah’s prophecy must be re-read in light of the paradigm of “grace over law,” but what would that imply for the meanings of the words in Isaiah’s day? Is it even conceivable that Isaiah did not mean “Torah” when he said torah? But if you want to maintain the “grace over law” interpretation of Paul, then it seems to me you are faced with but two alternatives. Either Isaiah was completely duped by the Lord in this prophecy (since he did not realize that Torah was irrelevant) or Paul invented an entirely new religion completely separate from ancient Jewish thought. I just don’t see any other way, except, of course, that Paul did not abandon Torah, that Isaiah is correct and that Torah is God’s instructions for His people always! But, of course, if that is true, then we have to reconsider what Lloyd Gaston said. “It may be that the Church will survive if we fail to deal adequately with that question [the anti-Semitic character of the apostolic writings], but more serious is the question whether the Church ought to survive. A Christian Church with an anti-Semitic New Testament is abominable, but a Christian Church without a New Testament is inconceivable.”[1]
I realize that this is beating a dead horse for some of us. But the issue is far from settled for most Christians. It keeps rearing its head like a hydra. I’m only trying to point out that the claim that Paul tossed out Torah makes nonsense of the prophets. How is that possible? Is there nothing that can shake this paradigm? How many heads of the hydra must be decapitated before the monster dies? Are you really going to tell God that He cannot issue Torah forth from Zion in the last days because you believe in grace?
Topical Index: Torah, Millennium, Paul, Isaiah 2:3b-6, law, grace
God does not ask us to change ourselves from the outside in; He changes us from the inside out. The Holy Spirit moves in and gives us a new heart (Ezekiel 11.19). He replaces our cold, stony hearts with hearts that are tender, supple, and responsive; hearts that have been broken over the love of God (Acts 2.37); hearts that desire to know God and to please Him. Then, deep within, He begins His transforming work, which can be seen (by men) progressively in how we live.
The practical manifestation of holiness is righteousness (or right-relatedness). Righteousness is a love for and a daily keeping of God’s law specifically the moral law represented by the ten commandments. It was summed up by Christ in these words: “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart -and with all your soul -and with all your mind.” This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). When we live by these two commandments, we keep the ten. (Love God – love people).
One may protest that we have been set free from the law, and indeed we are free from the responsibility to keep it as it as a system of works by which we attain to the perfect righteousness that God requires for salvation (Romans 9:30- 10:4). Further, if we are in Christ Jesus, we are free from the condemnation of the law (2 Corinthians 3:9), which we would otherwise incur from our inability to keep the law perfectly. ~ For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it ~ (James 2.10). We are free from the curse of the law, since Christ redeemed us from that curse by becoming a curse for us (Galatians 3.13, 5:1, Romans 7.6). Thus we are now free to keep the law (Galatians 5.13) as a response to God as our loving and Sovereign Shepherd/King.
What is freedom? Is it irresponsibility and lawlessness? No. such things lead to anarchy; true freedom comes only with obedience to the law. The lost man is not free; he is a slave to sin. And sin, according to John, is lawlessness or unrighteousness (1 John 3:4; 5:17). The Christian exchanges that slavery to sin for a slavery to righteousness; he keeps the law from a heart of love. Thus it is his heart which is enslaved (with the golden cords of love), and in that love he finds true freedom. (Romans 6.14-19)
One may further protest, “But I thought we were under grace and not bound to keep the law. Isn’t that what Paul said in Romans 6.14?)”
We are indeed under grace, but does grace give us a license to sin, to be lawless?” “May it never be!” “God forbid!” were the words of Paul. “How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” (Romans 6.2)
If we can go on living in a lifestyle of sin, we are not under grace; we are under a delusion. Grace delivers us from the curse (or condemnation) of the law, but His love also inspires and enables us to keep the law as well not as a means of salvation, but as a rule of life. (Romans 3.20, 10.1; Galatians 2.16, 3.11,21; Acts 13.39, Hebrews 7.19, 10.1,4,11-14)
The Holy Spirit is the One who accomplishes this work of grace in our lives. This is evidenced in Galatians 5, where we first see a contrast between keeping the law as a means of justification (thus making ourselves righteous or in right-standing with God) and trusting in God for His righteousness through the finished work of Christ and the enabling of the indwelling Holy Spirit. (Galatians 5.4-5) This is imputed righteousness, credited to our account through faith in Jesus Christ.
But the Holy Spirit, while enabling us to trust God for a righteous standing (righteousness) before Him, also disseminates within our hearts the grace of God, enabling us to keep the moral law of love. This is real-life imparted righteousness. Thus we see that grace is the instrument in the hands of the Holy Spirit by which He inspires (and enables) righteous living.
Our motivation? Because we love Him. Our inspiration? Love. Because God So loved the world, He gave.. God is our Giver/Lover. ~ Greater love has no man than this- that a man lay down His life for a friend ~ Who gave His life’s blood on Calvary? Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works? (Titus 2.14)
~ for you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s ~ (amen!)
~ and I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on Me, the One they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn Son ~
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Thanks Carl…I really appreciate your summary today of how grace and law go hand in hand.
Thank you too Carl, very clear.
Arnella
MY HEART LEAPS… my spirit leaps… I leap… in what GOD PUT IN FIRST in order that it can be worked out. He put HIS law; the Law of the SPIRIT within this little old lady to become the son/daughter that I was born to be.
Thanks Carl !
Thanks Skip !
IT TRULY IS AN INSIDE JOB working out the very salvation that GOD placed within HIS BODY of believers.
Seems like you are venting a bit here Skip. Which is OK; your title is appropriate. Moses escaped to Midian after his attempt to bring justice was rejected by a blind populace.
I don’t think Paul is to blame about it. I think that we have fallen prey of our own paradigms and on what we have been taught what ever comes first. But thank G-d for this opportunity to investigate and change if we wish to do so.
Bless you all.
What is meant here by “what do you think he would say about . . . redefining circumcision”?
What is meant here by “what do you think he would say about . . . redefining circumcision”?
I think that in this country, circumcision has become a cosmetic procedure that is divorced from the concept of brit (covenant). We want it done “antiseptically” in the hospital when the baby boy is only hours old, presumably because that reduces the “memory” of the pain, among other arguments. We pit the health benefits of the “procedure” against what many call a primitive violent act but in the process we have redefined circumcision as we have redefined the “Church” — causing both to lose their significance as a witness of our devotion to Adonai.
I know there are those for whom it is still a “brit”. But I think Skip may be referring to the general cultural view.
Thanks Suzanne – that makes a lot of sense. Circumcision has become nothing more than a medical procedure in our culture.
I wonder though – if gentiles are not to be circumcised in order to become followers of Yeshua, does it matter that this practice has become so commonplace?
Don’t worry about saying it too many times Skip, you are in good company: “Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you [is] not tedious, but for you [it is] safe.” Phillip 3:1
Skip, most of the horses I ride want to bolt for the same old barn at the end of the day. They don’t seem to relish a day away from the barn filled with discovery as much as I. The old barn for Christians who seemingly take to the Hebraic bit (cleaver, no?) still beakons them to bolt for the barn door to gobble up some greasy grace and to find shelter from the challenge of obeying ALL the commands of Yah. Such believers just fight with all their theological might to deny being beasts of burden. They’ve just been eating too much sweet feed.
I read this sentence from John MacArthur’s Strength for Today;
Behind every one of those righteous actions is the right attitude, because “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self–control” (Gal. 5:22–23). If you act without a godly attitude, it is only legalism, not genuine spiritual fruit.
Jesus came to fulfill the Law. I pray that I’m standing on the right side of the fence when he returns. I struggle with my sinful nature every day. A friend of mine reminds me that works is the fruit not the root of salvation.
MacArthur, J. (1997). Strength for today. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books.
Hi Skip,
Unfortunately dispensationalism does teach exactly that. Paul preaches an other gospel than Peter and James. This is the gospel for the body of Christ, while the Bride is Israel and the Law will be for their kingdom in future once again, but for now it is completely irrelevant. Our future is in heaven, after the rapture; Israels future is not that ‘high’ (we are more privileged) and earthly.
The result of this ‘gospel’ is devestating: you don’t have to do anything anymore; God has chosen you and even if you wanted to, it’s impossible to add anything by working, for than you are a Judaiser and turning away from grace.
In our church this means people are only waiting for the rapture, the Old Testament and even most of the New is obsolete, not for us now. You need no evangelism, for God is the One calling you – or not. Fatalism rises. New generations don’t know why they should believe, and slip into materialism. No one will admit it, but Paul becomes more important than Jesus Christ.
All this is so sad. Although I thank God He delivered me from this negative teaching, it’s terrible to see loved ones stuck in this dividing Scripture into two ‘evangels’, two ‘hopes’, two ‘ecclesiae’, etc. etc. They read Ephesians 4, but simply declare this is only for the Pauline ecclesia.
I wish I could find a way to open their eyes. This is my prayer every day, but untill this day only a few got sight. Please pray for these people, there must be millions of them in the States too.
This (for me) just brings to light that fact that Christians today want easy, cheap grace. I did too.
I did not want to do any work or obey any old laws. I did want to be saved though.
Once I began to question certain beliefs that I held, like the perceived authority within the established church, these beliefs began to crumble. I made the choice to continue to learn and dove into Jewish custom. This wasn’t quite right either and involved a lot of stuff I had no understanding of. I grew somewhat confused.
Then a friend was talking to me of Hebrew thoughts and how the scripture was originally written in Hebrew and I got curious. Thus began the journey. (a bumpy one at that!)
Anyways, first one has to be willing to have a good honest look at why they believe what they believe and that stops many right there for various reasons.
Then one has to decide what to do when presented with truth in Y-H’s revelation of Himself in what we call scripture. (I call these growing pains and they HURT sometimes!)
We in the USA have so much and are accustomed to having what we want when we want it. Personally there are parts of Torah I am choosing to obey today and parts I am struggling with mostly because I have to make a change which means in some cases, giving up something. The dietary regulations are hard for a foodie like me. I know the day is coming when I will have to choose but I digress.
It is an authority issue which is really a pride issue. We have adopted the worlds ways and we like the darkness. Light hurts when it is first allowed in but it becomes warm and much like a living embrace as we continue to choose life! The words of scripture are clear IF we will open our ears to hear it apart from the religious system of the day.
Blogs such as this one are an immense help to me as there are few warm bodies around who choose to have a good honest look at what they believe.
Keep beating the drum Skip. 🙂
Thank you Carl for your comments on the subject, as the mirror is now not so dim. Skip seems to get irritated by those who would follow the “prompting of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.” All I know is not what I read, but what I live. Of course, it must frist come through the senses; eyes, ears, etc., and then be processed by the brain, but if I am to incorporate that into my being, it must be planted in my heart to consistently impact my behavior.
I was raised in the church, but at the age of 18, I rejected all of the teaching and training and went my own way. At 35, I experienced the second birth; not as a result of preaching or events that appealed to my prior training, but because the Holy Spirit pierced my heart in a way that only God could do. Since then, I have opened my heart and my mind to His leading, which is why I continue to read TW daily.
I am both spirit and flesh; not because of Greek paradigm thinking, but because that is my life’s experience. That is what I live and it is reality for me; it is truth for me. So, Holy Spirit, search me and know my heart, and lead me in the everlasting way, and if that means I need to sign up for a 30-day course in Hebrew to get more out of TW, then I trust that will become clear to me, as have so many other directions I have received in my life. I know it’s hard to let the logic go, but how do we show our trust in Him if we have to figure everything out on our own?
My concern is not about being lead by the Holy Spirit. The leading of the Holy Spirit is real, valid and serious. But allowing your relationship with God to be determined by the leading of the Holy Spirit is incredibly dangerous because it means that YOU are the final authority over your life. How do you know that what you feel is the leading the the Spirit and not the prompting of the yetzer ha’ra disguised as God’s voice? How do you know that YOU are truly hearing God through all the confusion and chaos of your life? How do you know that YOU are not deceiving yourself? The serpent didn’t ask Havvah to question God. He simply suggested that Havvah needed to listen to her heart.
I find the leading and prompting of the Spirit absolutely essential to life with God, but in the end every leading must be judged by the revealed WORD, not by our feelings or promptings. The WORD can’t be manipulated so easily. The WORD, once investigated, doesn’t change according to my mood. IT is the standard of righteousness. The Spirit is real but precisely because the experience of the Spirit is internal and individual, that experience is subject to enormously subtle deception. Be VERY CAREFUL when you begin to trust your heart as the measure of God’s dealings with you. Remember Jeremiah’s evaluation of the heart.
Today’s Word exists not to find irritation with those who claim the Spirit’s leading but rather to challenge all of us to find the standard of righteousness in the WORD. Frankly, I just can’t trust myself. I need to know what the WORD says to see if i measure up regardless of how much I feel God’s leading. To do that, I have to investigate, search, question, struggle and, yes, find wonder and majesty in what He says. And then I will know the joy of the Spirit.
If all that were necessary for a relationship with God was the leading of the Spirit, then the Bible would be irrelevant to our faith.
Sincere question, Skip, but what of “My sheep hear My voice”, and
“Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?”
You are positive of your wife’s voice when she speaks to you in your home, even if she is unseen in another room. Nobody can fool you on that, right?
I think we can hear and know it is really Him, His words will line up with Scripture that is for sure, He won’t speak one thing in our heart or dreams, and it contradict a principle found in His perfect Word.
Dorothy,
Many years ago (1980s) I was in a charismatic church and most of my friends were filled with the Spirit. Many believed the Holy Spirit spoke to them giving them personal guidance, words of knowledge and words of wisdom, etc. Years ago one of my female friends (who later fulfilled her dream of becoming a missionary) told me after the birth of her fourth child that the Holy Spirit had spoken to her and shown her that God was closing her womb. At that time I was awed that she could hear such a thing and a bit jealous that I never received such personal information from the Holy Spirit. But as time went by my friend had five more children. I’ve never asked her how she felt about having believed that she was finished having babies and then went on to deliver five more. This a story from my life of the perplexity of people attributing guidance to the Holy Spirit when later it becomes obvious that was not the case. Personal direction such as my friend believed she received is difficult to verify with scripture. I was surrounded during that time by Christians constantly saying, “God told me this….” “The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said….” I probably even did this myself. This type of guidance gets very confusing and can be misleading. And I was always uncertain when I “heard” something if it was the Lord speaking or my own mind. My constant prayer was “to let me HEAR YOU, Lord.” Discernment sometimes comes after hard knocks. And I know sometimes we are led by the Spirit and don’t even realize it.
I’ve come to the place to have a high respect of being led by the Spirit of God and it’s something to hold in my heart and ponder quietly. And when my friends so easily and frequently discussed the Holy Spirit telling them this or that or when friends are quick to attribute some occurrence in one of our lives to be the Holy Spirit I’m not so sure anymore. Time will reveal the truth of it. Sometimes we mislead ourselves. The Holy Spirit does guide my life and the direction of my studies and I’m now private/reluctant about saying so because of my past experiences when I and others misconstrued what we thought was guidance. I’m much, much older now and I hope I’m wiser .
There’s another type of Spirit led guidance of which you spoke that must be prayed over, tested and confirmed through Scripture. Yet, it’s just so easy for us in Christendom to believe something is the leading of the Holy Spirit when it isn’t. Maybe because it’s become so common for us to talk of it and attribute so much activity to the Holy Spirit.
Peace,
Skip, you gave a lot of really good advice in this answer that I believe all of us really need to keep in mind. I’m going to borrow and use what you said, if you don’t mind.
By the way, concerning the horse you are beating, I think you are doing what Jude encouraged us all to do when he said “to keep contending earnestly for the faith which was once and for all passed on to God’s people”. – Jude 1:3 (CJB)
I like Jude. He is short and to the point. And he doesn’t much care where he finds the truth.
Jude would be a good letter to focus on for me. I so struggle with being concise, succinct, and brief in my writing. I need to learn that art of pithy word usage. I seem to feel the need to write every thought that blows through my brain rather than skillfully edit the choicest and most necessary notions. I will endeavor to concentrate on this undertaking.
There seems to be a dichotomy with me regarding my speech verses my writing. My writing is verbose yet my speech is minimal.
I struggle to created connected and applicable thoughts verbally, jumping here there and everywhere generally. Maybe it has something to do with the actual physical necessity to write words or type words that gives me enough time better connect stuff.
Jude, show me something. Please.
Thanks skip for staying with this crucial theme of LAW or TORAH for another day.
As we all can see from the comments, LAW is a great divider in Christendom. Maybe even THE great divider.
There is no doubt in my mind that a veil has come over “the church” on this matter. It is not too difficult to present irrefutable evidence that it is impossible that any part of God’s Holy Law was ever, or ever will be cancelled out unless it comes directly from HIM spoken to us in His HOLY WORD. There is not one whit of evidence in the Bible to show that God has changed or cancelled His Holy Law. Some try to show otherwise by misinterpreting the writings of Paul, to their own peril – I would fear the judgment I would receive to be labeled a teacher of lawlessness. But, no question, the mantle of Lawlessness is what all those who teach that “the law is done away”, “the law was fulfilled at Calvary” etc,. have taken on themselves. The Scriptures are very clear that such people will NOT be in the great first fruit resurrection, period. Such teachers of lawlessness will miss out on the blessing of reigning and ruling with Messiah for 1000 years. This is a very serious matter with huge implications. Is it any wonder that the apostle James cautioned: “let not many of you become teachers.” Why? Because teachers will be held responsible and judged for teaching lawlessness! The WORD shows us such teachers will be resurrected at the great White Throne judgment at end of Millennium and receive their appropriate reward / correction at that time. Yahshua will be their judge.
Meanwhile, lets look at a few of Yahshua’s and Paul’s words which show that Torah stands untouchable while we have “the heavens and the earth”.
Earlier,Carl Roberts has already done a great job of presenting some home run points on the Law but lets look briefly at some more!
In His so called “sermon on the mount” teaching, Yahshua presents irrefutable evidence where we see Him raise the bar and beautifully raise the 10 commandment to their full spiritual intent. He saw the hypocrites of His day playing games with the Law and He would have none of it!! We see the same garbage going on today in many ” churches”. But God will not be mocked.
On the Mount Yahshua taught:
“Think not that I have come to ABOLISH the Law and the Prophets: I have come NOT to ABOLISH them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not a iota not a dot, will pass from the law till all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven…” (Matt 5:17-19)RSV emphasis mine
Heaven and earth are still here, right?
These words from Yahshua seem pretty clear, right? What’s the problem?
Some try to take the word “fulfill” and play with it! Its “pleroo” in the Greek Strongs 4137. Strong has it meaning – to cram full or fill up” And that is exactly what we find Yahshua doing here in the text – He crammed the Law full of its beautiful spiritual meaning and intent! Example: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matt 5:27- 28) RSV
Yes, we see Yahshua magnify the Law in Matt 5, not do away with it!
USE THE ALGEBRA TECHNIQUE TO UNDERSTAND PAUL
I use this to show how preposterous it is to argue that Paul taught that the law was done away.
Remember how John defines sin in 1John 3:4 – “sin is the transgression of the law”
If everywhere you see the word “sin’ In Paul’s writings, you plug in “transgression of the Law” it becomes abundantly clear to a logical mind that the Law remains firmly in place!
Paul said: “Through the law comes knowledge of sin” (transgression of the law)(Rom 3:20)
Paul said, speaking about faith: “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! ON THE CONTRARY, WE UPHOLD THE LAW” (Rom 3:31)
Paul said: “For the wages of sin (transgressing the law) is death.
Lets go back to the great apostle John:
“And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says, “‘I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him; (notice the Hebraic thought pattern!) but whoever keeps his word (Torah) in him truly love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says that he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he (Yashua) walked .” (1John 2:3-6)
Is that last statement Hebraic to the core ,or what? – we are to walk as Yahshua walked and HE was the only one who walked Torah perfectly. Of course, no other person models Torah perfectly but if our heart is right, the Father allows us to impute Yahshua’s righteousness to our sin soiled garments!!
Brothers and sisters – that is GRACE coming from the Father.
Look at the last chapter in all of Scripture where we still find the apostle John teaching that Torah stands. It is revealing!:
“Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of life, and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, and the fornicators and the murderers and idolaters (all these listed sins are directly out of Torah), and everyone who loves and practices falsehood” (Rev22:14-15) One item of falsehood is teaching that any aspect of God’s holy righteous law is done away!
Friends, if what Skip is teaching is starting to make sense to you, and your pastor is teaching that “the Law is done away, the Sabbath and Leviticus festivals are not relevant, pork and shrimp etc are clean, you have a pastor whose mind is veiled. You will do well to leave that “Babylon of confusion and theological contradictions. Start a study group of your own by getting a few friends / family together on a Shabbat evening (Friday) or on Shabbat during the day. I appreciate Michael C. telling us on this blog a few days ago that he is doing that.
How hard is it to get together and read a Torah portion and have a discussion. Here is northern California where I live, I have seen some groups grow so qfast that they have had to chip in and rent meeting space fairly quickly. The group my wife and I mostly fellowship with (Hallel Fellowship – you can find us online) meet in a Grange Hall in Santa Rosa for a modest rent. We took such good care of the place that the Grange invited us on to the board and now we control the schedule in the place and they love us! Nearly every month, we have new people that the Spirit is sending our way. Not everyone becomes a regular and that is fine.
I have some good friends in the Seventh day Adventist community and they tell me that more people are asking the pastors why they keep Shabbat but not the Festivals. Some are leaving or being forced to leave by some pastors. It seems we are going back to the house church model we find in Acts in the apostolic church. for sure, God is calling people and His Spirit is moving people out of lawless apostate Babylon
In this internet age, getting a community going is easier than ever! Free and low cost resource materials on DVD, CD’s and downloads are abundant. Really, skip’s materials alone make for a lifetime of study.
Shoot me an email if I can be of any help: sjohnwalsh@gmail.com
I will count it as worthwhile if one or two will read all I want to say before you riddle the blog with bullets . . . Lol
I want to talk about: “Yeshua is the Living Torah”
I hear this on this site a lot.
This is a teaching that subtly takes your focus off of the Living Christ Who did the work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the sending of His promised Holy Spirit and to put your focus on Torah instead.
Doesn’t anyone think this is the attempt to replace the Living Christ with the written Law.
Did Torah do all the things that Christ did? No! Then how can Yeshua be the Living Torah?
Torah is a partial revelation of God’s Word.
Jesus is the FULL and LIVING expression of God Who bled and died and rose again to fulfill the promises of God.
Grace is never greasy or easy. It strikes my heart with fear to hear it said, even given as a pat answer.
Day after day, wondering how to stick with something you can never do is to take your focus off of Jesus and to turn your focus back to yourself — what do I have to do to please God, what do I have to do to receive status in the kingdom, what do I have to do to stay saved, what must I do to be a part of the Bride. Then your daily focus becomes very much on the flesh, and very little on the Spirit.
In the epistles to the Body of Christ after Pentecost, God shifts focus from the Law and the flesh to Jesus and the Spirit. It is not that Law ceases to be, it is that our relationship to Law changes. We die to the Law *in Christ*, and the Law becomes obsolete in Christ. We need to be found *in Jesus*, not in the law. Jesus is coming back for His bride.
There is wonderful beauty of God’s provision of the Law for Israel, but celebrate JESUS, the Fulfillment of what the Law pointed to. Let your lives revolve around the Reality in Christ, not around the shadows of the Law.
The heart of saving faith is found in Jesus’ death and resurrection, and faith in Him and His message. The gospel is meant to be easily accessible and understood by people of all cultures and languages. Jesus and His blood are the roots of the Christian faith, not His culture or the language He spoke when He was in the flesh. They are the backdrop of the events of His life, but they can become a major distraction to God Himself, if you allow them to.
If following Torah above the crucified and risen Jesus, the pathway you are on will widen……you will began ‘to see’ — be given the delusion that even Jesus is unnecessary.
You can either have the law or Yeshua/Jesus. You cannot mix the old and new covenant.
Who is on top of that mountain? Yeshua/Jesus reigns. If lifted up HE will draw all men to Himself.
It’s time for me to move on. I’ve said what I need to say. Now we must press forward with really important issues.
Yeah, I think me too.
Moving on.
Thanks, Skip.
Indeed! As you taught in worldview v Hebraic View, education has cutting off points, those who can grasp and do well, will move on, there will be those who will be slacking behind, so not to hinder those who wish to learn, please move on, Skip. There is so much most of us wish to let go, to start over, in a Hebraic paradigm.
Thank you.
Okay, time out. I do my best thinking early in the morning before the sun rises, and I will need that time to absorb all that has been written here; however, I will say this one thing: Jesus is the center of it all (just like the song). Nothing else in this world matters. It’s not Jesus plus works, and it’s not Jesus plus Torah, and it’s not Jesus plus anything. He and He alone is the Alpha and the Omega. He alone is the way and the truth and the life. That’s the way I see it, friends.
Thank you, John
Yup, that’s the way I see it, too.
I will look for your reply whenever you have time.
I WANT to hear some new words about it. Its a relief actually to not read the same stuff from the same people. All are entitled to their understanding, including me. Nobody’s feelings are hurt in the least by anyone moving on.
— just honestly want to see what answers would arise from putting this on the table to be examined.
I will say this one thing: Jesus is the center of it all (just like the song). Nothing else in this world matters.
Hi John,
For me, Jesus is optional, but the Law is not
The Law, and Zion, is at center of Peter Tosh songs
Peter Tosh – Equal Rights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SN7Pko_jCM
Everyone is crying out for peace yes
None is crying out for justice
(2x)
(CHORUS)
I don’t want no peace
I need equal rights and justice (3x)
Got to get it
Equal rights and justice
Everybody want to go to heaven
But nobody want to die
Everybody want to go to up to heaven
But none o them (2x) want to die
CHORUS
(Just give me my share)
What is due to Caesar
You better give it on to Caesar
And what belong to I and I
You better (2x) give it up to I
CHORUS
(I’m fighting for it)
Everyone heading for the top
But tell me how far is it from the bottom
Nobody knows but
Everybody fighting to reach the top
How far is it from the bottom
CHORUS
Everyone is talking about crime
Tell me who are the criminals
I said everybody’s talking about crime, crime
Tell me who, who are the criminals
I really don’t see them
CHORUS
There be no crime
Equal rights and justice (Precedes each line below)
There be no criminals
Everyone is fighting for
Palestine is fighting for
Down in Angola
Down in Botswana
Down in Zimbabwe
Down in Rhodesia
Right here in Jamaica
TO ANYONE who wishes to hear from one that is considered a heretic I would like to say that “JESUS IS NOT AN OPTION”.
I know very little.. to this I reply but if CHRIST is not the Center… I will simply die.
IN HIM is the VERY LAW of the SPIRIT OF GRACE.
Hi John
Question: where in Scripture does Yeshua ever says that He is the center of it all?
WWJD? Doesn’t He always point us to the Father?
– Also how did Yeshua teach us to pray? Not to Him but to OUR Father.
TRUE, Luzette! Amein!
John 1:1- “In the beginning was the Word/Torah, and the Word/Torah was with Elohim and the Word/Torah was Elohim. He, the Word/Torah, was with Elohim in the beginning. Through Him all things were made… In Him was life and that life was the light of men… And the Word/Torah became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
The Word/Torah protects us from stepping over certain physical, spiritual and emotional /mental boundaries. The importance of keeping the Word/Torah is to safeguard our bodies, souls/spirits from becoming unrestrained. Proverbs 29:18 says: “Where there is no vision/prophecy (revelation), the people cast off restraint; but happy are those who keep the law.”
Rejection of Word/Torah leads to lawlessness, degeneration and ultimately, spiritual death.
Yahshua IS THE living Torah, reject Torah, you reject Yahshua!
David knew that the Word/Torah was the foundation of the House of YHWH.
Judaism teaches that there are three things which are inseparable – Elohim, Torah and Israel.
Amos 9:11- Amos saw in the future the restoration of all things. In that day, I YHWH will restore the fallen tabernacle of David. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins and build it as it used to be…
The kosher Torah is made of lambskin on which the Word of YHWH has been written, which is impaled on two rollers of wood which the rabbis refer to as the Etz Chaim, or Tree of Life. It is then robed in splendor (in blue and gold in a case) and adorned with a breastplate representing the breastplate of the Cohen HaGadol (High Priest) and with the finials on top, which represent the crowns of a King.
Now who is the Messiah? He is the Word of YHWH (John 1:1) in the form of the Lamb (v. 36), impaled on wood which is a Tree of Life (cf. Gal. 3:13f). He was then robed in glory (Rev. 1:13), given the role of our great High Priest (Heb. 7-10), and crowned with many crowns (Rev. 19:12).
This is the way the rabbis have dressed theirs Torah scrolls for thousands of years. Even in the traditions of the Jewish people, traditions that they could not possibly have realized pointed to the Messiah, we see Yeshua’s identity as the Living Torah, of which the written Torah is only a reflection, confirmed. -Hebrew Root Website.
You are not in despair, Skip, you know nothing you do is in vain. Heaps of folks benefit and are so blessed by TW, they appreciate the vital paradigm you are leading them to. KEEP GOING, keep challenging us! 🙂 Shalom!
Hi Luzette: “Where in Scripture does Yeshua ever say He is the center of it all?”
John 14:6 – “I am the way, and te truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.”
There is no other way, and certainly not as a result of works (Eph. 2:9), or keeping the Law.
Yes, in Matt. 6:9 He taught us to pray to the Father, and He also said, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9).
Hi Skip: “But allowing your relationship with God to be determined by the leading of the Holy Spirit is incredibly dangerous because it means that YOU are the final authority over your life.”
Quite the contrary. Allowing the Holy Spirit to lead requires that I be totally surrendered to His direction. Where does that come from? His Word; the circumstances He engineers in my life; and the words of believers like yourself and others who comment on this blog. You search the Scriptures and rightfully so, as do I, to see if these things are true. I also search my heart, where He dwells in me (1 Cor. 3:16). Does the God of all creation, through His indwelling Spirit, take up residence in our bodies as a squatter, or did He come to us to fulfill His purpose in and through us?
“How do you know that what you feel is the leading the the Spirit and not the prompting of the yetzer ha’ra disguised as God’s voice?”
Yes, this is the challenge, but I would answer with your example of the man rowing in the boat, not turning to look at where he is going, but looking back at where he has been. That would be one way.
Hi John Walsh: “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not a iota not a dot, will pass from the law till all is accomplished.” “Heaven and earth are still here, right?’
Yes, but Jesus is not. He accomplished it all on the cross. Gal. 5:14 says, “For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
BTW, I do not belong to any church or denomination, so my thoughts do not come from misguided pastors, but from what I read and hear and glean from the Word of God and His following of believers.
Hi Dorothy: Yes, Jesus is the embodiment of the Word. John 1: 1-2. And, “For the word of God is living and active (Jesus is alive today, seated at the right hand of God) and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Heb. 4:12)
Ah, here we are at the heart again, and here I will stop.
Thank you all for your thoughtful comments that you have shared. I am okay with moving on.
John L
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post.
Wow, I thought everyone had “moved on”? I had put my sword away – planning to turn it into a plough! Now I have to pull it back out again to do battle with you lovely folks. Hey, just kidding!
Seriously though, John, I will have to say that that I disagree with your understanding and application of the word “fulfilled”. I explained it a little in my post yesterday. For clarity, the Greek word “pleroo” does not mean here “fulfilled” in the sense it is used in English, for instance, in the business world we use it as an Amazon employee might use it in telling his boss that he had “fulfilled” an order and shipped it to the customer. In both Matt 5 and Gal 5, a better English word to use would beis “magnified”. In Matt 5, we all have to agree that the context of what Yahshua is saying is – He is magnifying Torah to its full spiritual intent. And “love your neighbor” does exactly the same thing!!
You see, if all people truly practiced the love of their neighbor, they would keep Torah perfectly. For example, they would not steal their neighbors tools when he was not home, nor would they commit adultery with their neighbors spouse. Do you see how this changes things? During the Millennium, we will do just that when Torah will be practiced by everyone. We will no longer have need for prisons and police departments during that age.
it actually saddens me that people like Dorothy completely miss the point about discussing and elevating Torah to its rightful place as being a book of laws that when practiced bring peace, happiness, abundance and riches, safety and security etc to every single human being on planet earth. Poverty, illiteracy, ignorance , injustice, war will be no more during the Millennium. Go read Isaiah and the other prophets and you will see that what I am saying is going to happen up ahead.
Actually, by his sinless life, Yahshua has qualified himself to be king over all the earth for that age!
. The Gospels reveal that Yahshua went around teaching about the “good news of the Kingdom of God”. He was the Messiah the Jews were looking for but they expected Him to be they one to kick out the Romans and establish the Messianic kingdom at that point. Their sense of timing was way off. They did not understand that first he had to come as the Lamb of God and the second time as the Lion of Judah – the King of Kings.
Dorothy and others of you do not yet grasp this connection between Yahshua, Torah and His Kingdom!
Golgotha is only part of the equation. We are not called to be stuck at the foot of the Cross, so to speak. And as I see it – that is a major problem for many Protestants and Evangelicals with their “grace is everything” mantra.
None of us want to minimize His Sacrifice at Golgotha> It was awesome and needful for us to have life. Without it we are dead in our sins! And it is only through Torah that we understand the needfulness for a perfect atoning sacrifice for sin. Paul taught emphatically where there is no law there is no sin!
So I do not understand those on TW who fail to see that we need both the sacrifice of Yahshua AND Torah. They are not mutually exclusive at all.
We are all going to be judged by Torah so it would be kind of nice if we all knew ahead of time with what Yahshua is going to judge us. And sadly, most “Christians” are woefully ignorant of Torah and its importance – a major problem!
There is a cause for every effect. The reason the world is in such a mess is because of SIN – transgression of Torah. Now stick around and you will see that the reason live will be so beautiful and harmonious during the Millennium is because Torah will be obeyed by everyone even down to the animal kingdom. Law, – Torah is everything and God will prove that to humanity once and for all with what He will have Yahshua do during the millennium. Golgotha WAS NEVER intended to be the BE ALL AND END ALL! It just brought us the needed imputed righteousness so we could go into the kingdom of God.
Yahshua’s sacrifice was absolutely needful for us to escape the sting of death but in the course of the Father’s plan it simply tore the curtail off the Holy of Holies that we all may go in! And I say Hallelujah for that. It is of supreme importance to me – every year at Passover, I find myself getting a lump in my throat and shedding tears as I memorialize and feel so unworthy of what He did for all of us. And you know, if all us creepy selfish rebellious humans had kept Torah perfectly, we could have saved Him all the grief and pain and death. But, guess what, either way God would have been glorified! and that’s the point
I never thought I’d see a discussion over who is at the center of it all, Jesus or the Father.
They’re ONE.
And the mystery of the Trinity rolls on.
I do NOT believe that the Prophets of OLD and the Apostles of the NEW ever believed in a trinity.
They were completely sold out , that there was ONLY ONE in the beginning and as Zechariah says.. in that day, they will know that there is only ONE LORD.
The trinity, may I dare say comes from the earth ; of man and seeks to divide up the MOST HIGH into pieces; not I.
I see only ONE.
Carol,
Ditto.
It’s difficult tearing out dogmas that have tentacles reaching in so many hallowed places. But once they are out, it’s difficult to see how we left them there for so long.
I certainly don’t understand how Yeshua, Abba, and Ruach are One. I can only speculate in that regard. the technical aspects of it are beyond me without a doubt.
But I do feel certainty about seeing Yeshua when the Ruach and/or Abba is referenced much more in all those various angles. When I hear about Ruach performing some action, I can more easily know it is Yeshua/Abba and vice versa.
YHWH is Ruach is Yeshua always and in every situation. How can it be otherwise? The Trinity explanation is thin and flimsy with me now. But, wow, I’m still here, still walking in Yeshua even though many of the ‘sacred’ creeds and dogmas have fallen in my estimation. What do ya know…the winds change and Abba/Yeshua/Ruach is still here, still ruling, still controlling, still maintaining the cosmos second by second.
And here I thought the world would end by denouncing many of these things.
Hogwash.
Truth will sustain us. “emet” is powerful and a place we should seek as home. For there is rest, shabbat.
Hi Carol,
I respect your belief not to believe.
I find that the Word leads me to believe otherwise. Most notably, are the words
of Jesus to His disciples in MATT 28: 18-20 . . . “All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will
be with you always, to the very end of the age.”
It’s interesting to note that Jesus did not say the “names” of, but the name of the
Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
One name. One God.
The Word said it and I, for one, believe it.
…and RICH.. that NAME is JESUS.
Hi Rich,
Skip has dealt in these topics in TW. Perhaps you could search them out from his site.
These are some of the issues presented and discussed here, sometimes over and over again.
It concerns translation agendas, if you will go study church history. We have much to relearn, to leave false doctrines, which many of us had been led to believe, behind.
Same as ‘body, soul and spirit’ issues.
Shalom!
There is a tree that produces 3 kinds of fruit, orange, grapefruit, lemon, here in Arizona.The branches are grafted into the orange tree. I have been looking at the citrus tree and thinking that maybe all types of Christian and Hebrew thinking and focus do not have to look exactly the same.
One may emphasize grace, the other emphasize law and still be a part of the same tree, have the same life of God flowing through the veins. The grafted in branches have their own leaves and fruit and yet they come from a trunk of a different kind of tree because of the grafting.
Not sure if this is of any importance, but to me it is interesting-the grafting
Lois,
Just curious. While one tree produces oranges, grapefruits and lemon, how do they taste. Is there any diluted or mixed or different tastes.
I’ve lived in Florida and have picked oranges from trees that have no taste. They looked pretty good, but they only looked like oranges. One taste and you threw it on the ground.
So, just curious if the tastes of the three fruits were good, rich and full respect to their character.
That would be pretty cool to pick three different fruits off one tree!
Michael C-
TRUE! I dislike tasting anything but the true taste as ABBA has created, anything else is like “genetically modified”! They look real, but they are not in taste. YUKS!
Hi Michael,
The fruit on the grafted tree all taste true to the original. It’s pretty amazing. Last year we planted a lemon/ lime tree. It will be fun to see what happens. My friends citrus tree with three different fruits did well but the lemon tended to take over.
In Arizona we have decorative orange trees. The oranges are sour and not really grown to eat. My neighbor makes marmalade from them because adding a lot of sugar makes them useful. I think they are grown sometimes because they are more hardy.
Thanks for being interested.
I think all true believers are grafted into Israel. And the prophets and the Word of God in the Old Testament are ours as well. What riches we have in our Jewish heritage. I am learning a lot and am still thinking about what this means to me.
Blessings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J6pJ2JZQvk
Hi Lois-
It is vital that we know the Word, even from translated version/s, and then to be guided to the actual meanings in the original texts/scrolls, and this here is the one and only blog that does this, to have that paradigm shift in mindsets as well, from Greek to Hebraic.
Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
So, from the three sons, were the whole earth then filled.
Gen 10:6 But some got wild-read Ham’s genealogy, and were cut off.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Those who returned, were grafted back in-TO the GOOD olive Tree that is Yisrael.
Do NOT be grafted into any tree, to be led astray! You are precious to YHWH, Who has redeemed you, through His Son Yahshua.
Shalom!
I think you are spot on. Good discernment. ❤️❤️❤️❤️