The Numerologist
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. Galatians 4:28 NASB
Children of promise – The movie Pi (not the movie The Life of Pi) is the story of Max, the Jewish mathematician and his involvement with a Torah sect that seeks the code of God’s name in the letter-numbers of the Hebrew Tanakh. Max’s mentor impresses on Max the power of paradigmatic thinking. “Whenever your mind becomes obsessed with some idea, you will find it everywhere in nature. You have chosen 216. You will find it everywhere. 216 steps from the corner to your front door. 216 seconds to ride the elevator . . . but Max, as soon as you give up scientific rigor, you are no longer a mathematician. You are a numerologist!” In other words, it is not the evidence that generates the theory. It is the theory that generates the evidence. The evidence is pliable. The theory is rigid. The evidence conforms to what the theory says will be the case.
Exactly that same phenomenon applies to the interpretation of Scripture. If you believe that Paul converted to Christianity as a result of the Damascus experience and that Paul taught the abdication of Torah under the new covenant of grace, you will find evidence for this belief everywhere you look. You will find it in Genesis and Isaiah, in Romans and Galatians. You will find it because that’s what you are looking for. Scripture will be filtered by this belief and made to conform to the rigidity of the theology. But as soon as you give up historical, cultural and linguistic rigor, you are now longer a theologian. You are a dogmatist.
There are two kinds of theology paradigm believers: naïve and aware. Those who are naïve may be so simply because they have never been exposed to any other way of thinking. They believe because they have always believed, because they have been taught to believe, because their experience has been conformed to the belief. Then there are aware paradigm believers. They recognize that there are other ways of viewing the world, other interpretations that may be just as valid, other experiences that don’t fit their current view. If contrary evidence is presented to the first type, it is either rejected outright or it is declared “not evidence.” Contrary evidence presented to the second type causes tension, cognitive dissonance and spiritual discomfort. It may lead to shifts in the web of belief. It may – but it doesn’t compel these changes. Change in the web of belief is always a matter of choice. The basis of the change is not always “evidence.” It is sometimes merely a feeling that leads to gradual change or sudden conversion. The point is this: Scripture is not interpreted as “raw” data. It is interpreted through theological paradigms. Those who are unaware of paradigm articulation tend to think that what they believe is true and all other views are false. They tend to dismiss contrary views and tend to ignore historical development if it suggests alternative views. Most importantly, these paradigm believers often use “proof texts” to support their views, no matter where the idea actually originated, because they require divine authority for their beliefs. Consequently, they often turn to the Bible to demonstrate that they are right and all others are wrong based on particular interpretations of the text.
This has not only been the case in Christian theology. Ira Stone notes, “This tendency to look to divine authority for whatever other new values and ideals have crept into Jewish ethics is not confined to Maimonides. To cite one more example, the view that the body was the source of sin, with the concomitant principle favoring asceticism, a view taken over from Neo-Platonism thought by Judaism as well as Christianity, is upheld by the means of a multitude of passages from Scripture and rabbinic literature.”[1]
Did you notice that this idea – the essential corruption of physical matter exhibited in the sinful nature of the body – is found in both Jewish and Christian thought but it originated with Neo-Platonism? Its history is not biblical, but once the idea was accepted, scholars in both traditions attempted to justify the belief by finding verses to support it.
This should teach us a great lesson. What we believe is not simply a matter of interpreting the text of Scripture. It is a messy nexus of all kinds of threads and the more we are able to unravel those threads, the clearer we will be about why we believe – and maybe, just maybe, what we no longer believe.
Paul writes, “you are children of promise.” Just think about how many different ways that phrase has been interpreted. Do you suppose we will ever know what it means without first knowing what Paul means? And how will we know what Paul meant if our interpretive filters originate from ideas that Paul never had and vocabulary that he never knew? How can we possibly understand “children of promise” unless we first understand the phrase in its rabbinic context, even Hellenized rabbinic context, of the first century, apart from Augustine, Luther, Calvin and Grudem?
Topical Index: paradigm, web of belief, Galatians 4:28, children of promise
[1] Ira Stone, “Introduction,” to Moses Luzzatto, Mesillat Yesharim, p. xxviii.
“Most importantly, these paradigm believers often use “proof texts” to support their views, no matter where the idea actually originated, because they require divine authority for their beliefs.”
Picking a verse here and and a verse there to confirm their theory of belief, regardless of the full context of the issue being presented is erroneous.
All verses thus quoted do not connect in truth of the matter presented.
More so in translated, or “misinterpreted” versions, i.e. according to the translators’ acceptance of theology that they want their readers to accept, AND, those who believe, in accepting these lies are not hungry nor humble enough to accept being led to the right perspective of what is in the original texts.
“Children of promise” can be referred to those born not of the flesh (as Hagar after the will of man) but of the Spirit (as the promised seed by YHWH by HIS will to Abraham)
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
Those who are bound/enslaved to Babylonian theories is not of the promised seed, but of the flesh, unless they COME OUT of those set/s of belief/s being deceived, to be set free.
And NOT simply because they “believe”, and has obtained grace, but lacking deeper truth in their understanding of Scriptures.
2Pet 3:16 As also in all epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to understand, which they that are untaught and unstable wrest/twist, as [they do] also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pet 3:17 You then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall, from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless.
2Pet 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of your Master and Messiah יהשוה/יְהוֹשֻׁעַ. To him [be] kavod both now and for ever. Amein.
I will gladly rest my soul on the solid rock of the Scriptures, and by a Gospel hope and cheerful faith, show that our conversation and treasure, –of all who rest from works and are hidden in Christ Jesus,– will arrive safely at the destination!
You continue in the old philosophies that exalt themselves against God, and carry away as many as you can, but bitter will be the end!
The Word has been given, –rail against its accuracy as long as you like, but it has for generations turning the clubs of cannibals into altar railings in many savage areas, it is ever enlarging the diameter of those circles of light which God has kindled on earth, and which will soon meet in a universal illumination, death, hell, and lies all defeated — call it a weakness if you like!
A little more such weakness and failure and we shall have, over all the globe, the new heavens and the new earth wherein dwells righteousness.
Hallelujah, praise the Lamb of Glory! What a glorious Day, –I daresay a bit of its glory lights my way today! CHRIST ENCOURAGES ME SO !!!
What an excellent example of paradigm thinking. Thank you.
even a stopped clock is right twice a day 🙂
“even a stopped clock is right twice a day”
A stopped clock is a dead clock, not functioning as it should. Kaput.
That’s not being right, it’s a skeleton in a museum that requires the observer to expend energy
to look at it at the ‘right’ time twice a day for verification of the applied cliche.
And it’s not right twice a day. It’s a broken invention of an artificial measurement.
Your cliche is weak and flippant.
Cliche – a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought.
Try again.
On second thought . . . never mind.
Apparently you think I am a heretic and a deceiver. Why do you continue to read and write on this site? Perhaps it’s time to consign me to the devil and let me go – and all those who read and write here (except you, of course). There is no sense in continuing with your efforts to reform all of us since we are blind to the truth which you see so clearly. I guess we are really victims of what really happened in history, what culture the New Testament came from and the false influence of rabbinic thinking. It’s so nice to know that at least you have not succumbed to the historical record or the actual culture of the Jewish New Testament. Martin would be so pleased.
ha ha, I like you. I would like to stay to present an opposing view. Why not?
I’m sure you are not concerned that anyone could be swayed.
I believe all who read and write here are adults in possession of their faculties and free will.
Why not let them choose as they are convicted, or not.
This “Martin” I do not know.
I determine not to know any thing, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 🙂
“I determine not to know any thing, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.”
Dorothy, No one is saying otherwise. Have you subscribed to Skip’s study, “30 Days of the Hebrew Worldview”? This blog’s purpose is to dig through layers and ages of translation and mistranslation and different philosophical perspectives, especially between Hebrew and Greek, to uncover the true meaning of words used in scripture. Jesus’ disciples and apostles were Jews. They spoke Hebrew and Greek. When they spoke Greek they used Hebrew idioms veiled within Greek. Since the third century Greek philosophy has had a huge influence on Christianity swaying it in directions that were not in the purpose of the original Hebrew scriptures because Hebrew understanding was lost. We’re searching for the original meaning of scripture. Here and there are subtle differences to be recovered. Here and there are great differences to be recovered. Greek thinkers and Hebrew thinkers are very different because of the language and alphabets. Did you know that G-d spoke creation into existence using Hebrew letters? The desire of Skip and readers of this blog is to be obedient to G-d’s scriptures.
Skip, may I ask you why or how you think Dorothy thinks of you as a heretic or a deceiver ?
This is important to me. Is this discernment on your part or error on her part ?
Thank you for your answer !
Carol,
An observation:
From first reading Dorothy’s contributions when I initially came upon them in here, I have sensed a rebellious resistance and an agenda contra the efforts of this blog. Disagreement is one thing. Iron sharpens iron, as has been explained ubiquitously through most all disciplines.
On the other hand, Dorothy side steps the arena of true disagreement by dismissing the argument and simple replacing it with her dogmatic proof texting. From her oppositions side, it’s not dialogue but banging one’s head up against the wall.
She provides just enough nice talk to get in only to prepare and set up the resistance of ‘officially approved, vetted, and accepted phrases’ of Bible talk. The premise of her ‘arguments’ is, yes, anyone can offer their own opinions, BUT, they have no value actually, and here’s why…(followed by verse after verse representing her own specific dogmatic theology).
This type of disagreement goes on indefinitely without much community advancement. It pits the varying communities against rather than with over time. It’s an ‘us and them’ frame of reference.
Most of the references she offers seem to be cut-n-paste answers or paraphrased from websites that advocate her own dogmatic stance. A rather simple and easy and hollow manner of rebuttal.
The web gives access to at least a couple of dozen defensive arguments on practically ANY subject you could possibly think of.
So…I think it’s typical, from the experiences I’ve personally witnessed that paradigm changes are slow and difficult. It depends on what your mindset is coming in to the ‘battle’ for the mind. If you’re fearfully defending that which always has been doctrinally regarding your set of beliefs, you first plug your ears and simply shoot at anything that comes at you.
If you are searching for truth, one tends to objectively set everything on the table for an honest reevaluation, open to what ever comes out of the tube. As Skip has alluded to in the past, honestly confronting issues can result in some unsettling realizations and difficult times of releasing familiar things and filling them in with others not previously considered.
Dorothy comes to this blog with an agenda to repel anything that doesn’t align with her set dogma. She’ll deny it probably, but I’ve read enough over a long enough time frame to conclude her approach is the naive one mentioned in this TW.
Actually, I’ve wondered if the feminine “Dorothy” isn’t just a blog ID and that ‘she’ is actually a guy. I can’t, of course, verify that, it’s just you get vibes every now and then.
Conclusion, sure – stay Dorothy, contribute with your naive offerings of resistance rather than real and honest debate and disagreement with the intent of uncovering truth.
She has yet to admit that she is willing to change, modify or alter her dogma in any way. If that’s the case, why even bother entering the discussion if not for reason of a battle.
I understand Skip’s frustration. It’s like arguing why Obama should be the president. Trying to find a reason when there isn’t one. Anywhere. Ever.
Just an observation. To be clear: no hate here for Dorothy. Just participating in the challenge that faces us all – communicating. It’s a noble effort to attempt to learn how to communicate effectively, truthfully and meaningful.
Skip does it well as do many others in here. For which I’m thankful to embrace and attempt to decipher their thoughts and make them of value in my life.
Thank you; I understand.
I guess we all come with our own thoughts about what we believe and understand.
I know that many are very intollerant of me when I say that I do not see that or I disagree with that. Many need to grow up and mature and not simply with a lot of knowledge that swamps another.
We must lay of spiritual clubs down and that is like Abraham having to lay his Isaac down.
I myself need to settle down and be at rest in what I see and yet leave the door open. My desire is to lift Jesus up and to build upon the FOUNDATION of all foundations as Eph.2:20 teaches. With so many movements ( and not bowels) going across the land we are seemingly all effected with toxic seed which brings forth toxic behaviour.
There seems to be a need to BE RIGHT at all costs !
May the LORD of heaven and earth that fills HIS CHILDREN OF PROMISE be made clearer to us in WHO and WHAT HE IS.
IF that is possible……..and I hope you understand the last comment.. we are so little and HE IS SO BIG.
But may our confession as much as is within; honor and glorify HIM to the UTMOST for HIS HIGHEST GLORY.
Yep, well said, and I agree.
Especially with “we are so little and HE IS SO BIG!”
It’s a freeing thing to stop trying to be God. I know I’ve arrogantly attempted to step in His shoes many a time by declaring “God’s word says this, or that or whatever…” as if I was the final authoritative voice on what He really means or meant by this verse or that verse.
As I’ve delved in to some of the rabbinic writings I’ve had pointed out to me and have personally noticed that many of the writings do it differently than what I’ve observed in my upbringing. There is a noticeable and more humble approach in their comments on what Torah says. It’s not that they vacillate about what they are saying, rather they show deference that this appears to be what is being said and then they give reasons based on observance of others verses in Torah. They easily dive deep and extrapolate hidden meanings, again, as compared and defined and explained by other stories and places in Torah.
With many of their descriptive offerings as to meaning, they somehow convey this as a ‘perhaps’ or a ‘possibly’ or ‘it seems’ so. I didn’t really see or notice it at first until it was pointed out to me somewhere else. Then I really started noticing it. They will go after the meaning and intent of Scripture with energetic zeal and yet with a humble servant attitude of “this is my best attempt at understanding this, but I may have missed it and will continue to make efforts to understand it better.” I guess it just comes at me as less ‘shut up and listen to me, THIS is how and what it means!” Rather, there has been somewhat of a pattern and attitude that I’ve picked up from reading these guys of true searching, true seeking after truth and willing to accept whatever they find and change their actions accordingly. And is just isn’t academic either. Some of the stories of people talking about the lives of these rabbis show them putting their money and lives where there mouth is. That is, they LIVED out what they taught and were great examples for their talmidim (disciples) to SEE and follow.
That’s part of the challenge of a blog like this. While Skip does an excellent job in making offerings of his discoveries, gleanings, and studies, this blog is still limited in expression. It makes it harder to communicate the whole picture with just words. I think it might be much better to sit in a room and listen and hear and watch Skip speak. But, the world revolves much around only the written word. But there really is more behind a written word.
Getting the historical, ethnic, cultural, linguistic characteristics and quality of Torah certainly helps to fill in those gaps of the written word. That is why what Skip offers is so valuable to me.
The little doctrinal, ‘what we believe’ statements have a place, they certainly aren’t everything and certainly can’t be encapsulated in a few bullet points as so much of the established church seems to want it to. I used to be obsessed with knowing it. Now I know that I don’t know it unless I really do it. That’s what is missing in blogs. We can’t see, share, and actually watch and participate with each other DOING all this good Torah stuff. But that’s OK. This is a part of my growth and sharing with others. It certainly helps me and encourages me.
So thanks for what you share Carol.
Michael C,
After reading comments earlier today I came back to the blog to tell Dorothy that I think she doesn’t grasp the purpose of this blog and to suggest that she subscribe to Skip’s “30 Days of the Hebrew Worldview” study. Dorothy seems to feel it necessary to defend when there is no attack. When I returned to the blog I found additional comments had been written including this one by you. Bravo! Well said, well articulated. You said what I feel and can’t articulate well. And, you included impressions I’ve had that the feminine Dorothy might be a guy or an opposing “plant” of some sort with an agenda. Or maybe she was once a dedicated missionary…. As you pointed out in another comment – it would be good if we were all in the same room, face-to-face for discussions.
Also, I concur with you about the attitudes of the rabbis. Their writings are very humble, very deep, full of wisdom…and gentle.
I think YOU, all my readers, have correctly discerned the issue. When someone does nothing more than repeat Scripture as proof of his position without regard to any of the serious considerations of language, culture and history, that person shows himself to be a dogmatist. The problem with dogmatists is that they are absolutely convinced they are right no matter what the evidence says, and therefore, no evidence will make any difference. I believe because I believe what I believe. Totally immune from any discussion.
And the further consequence is the tragedy that once people discover the person is truly a dogmatist, others stop listening. After all, what is the point of discussion if the opening premise is “You must first agree with me, then we can talk.”
I have allowed Dorothy’s dogmatic assertions to continue on this blog because they represent exactly what we are NOT attempting to do here. We are attempting to UNDERSTAND, not simply reiterate what we think we already believe. Dorothy’s reluctance to enter into any serious examination in spite of the offer of many resources and many helpful suggestions proves my point. There simply is no reasoning with a person whose beliefs are exempt from criticism. Such a person has no audience and in the end speaks only to himself.
I think this is essentially the failure of the Church. It teaches the recitation of dogma and doctrine, not the ability to investigate for yourself. As such, it preaches only to the choir. No one else is listening.
I hope that strong opinion on this blog is always accompanied with justification, evidence, argument and an openness to the views of others. If at any time I fail in that regard, please notify me immediately.
Thx, Darlene.
You articulated very well, I think! 🙂
Michael C,
I agree in your assessment of Dorothy. I have sensed from the beginning that Dorothy’s intentions have not been for the benefits of others (godly), but her own (ungodly). She has continually tried to bring schism toward Skip and others on this blog without really contributing to the teaching at hand, and whenever anyone calls her out on this very fact, she uses malicious and manipulative words to make that person sound like the scoundrel.
THIS NEEDS TO STOP!
This is simple common courtesy for everyone on this blog, and especially for Skip!
This a common community of disciples/learners, we are in it together and encouraging one another along the King’s highway, the pathway of holiness, which we see descriptively displayed in the Torah. This is the King’s highway and those who have no desire to travel the way of holiness, can get off on the next exit, lawlessness. 🙂
Yes, Brian.
I have no problem with legitimate disagreement.
It’s the flippant attitude that really doesn’t do me any good.
I think here’s a story of what and how disagreement should look like.
Two rabbi’s were almost always on opposite ends of debate topics. (Not the foundational truths of Torah, mind you, but the peripheral issues that we can all discuss). Day and night, night and day the two rabbis argued their subjects. It was a common occurrence for people to walk by them and hear bits and pieces of their arguments. It seemed they were constantly attacking the others assertions. One would make an assertion, the other would counter assert. It seemed their mission was to disagree with the other.
Then, one rabbi died.
As crowds gathered for the funeral, all could see one man over to the side, head in hands, weeping and shaking uncontrollable. No one bothered him, they all just shared in his grief from afar. He was mourning, grief stricken at the loss of his friend and companion in life.
Who was it? It was the other rabbi that was always arguing with the one that died. He now had no one to sharpen his sword with. No one to delve in to the depths of HaShem’s words with anymore. His fellow traveler and searcher and truth seeker, with whom he wrestled the Torah with was gone. He was heart broken. No one to challenge and hone his thoughts and searches of HaShem’s words. No one to check his searches, his ventures in understanding.
Would that I had someone that loved me enough to argue Torah with me like that whether morning or night, where ever we might be. I yearn for someone that close to battle for uncovering of His truth.
I would openly welcome anyone to argue with me amidst love like that.
Yes, Yeshua is that one and daily does all that. Yet, I still yearn for someone right here.
This blog helps in that arena. Thanks Skip and all those participating in His love.
I’ll reply to this one. Dorothy said, “You continue in the old philosophies that exalt themselves against God, and carry away as many as you can, but bitter will be the end!” It seems to me that this is the equivalent of a charge of heresy and the threat of spiritual punishment. If this is what she meant, then I found it extremely amusing. It would, of course, be the same charge that the Catholic Church made of Luther, and some of the Pharisees made of Yeshua. It will always be the charge when the sacred cows of an insular faith are challenged. And, by the way, the day that I discover that I really am at complete odds with God’s Word, I will quit writing until I have repented and come back to the truth. In the meanwhile, I will wrestle with it all, and all of you are free to follow along if you wish.
DR. SKIP MOEN FOUND GUILTY OF HERESY AND RABBLE ROUSING
My dear Sir Dr. Moen,
I, the Queen, and head of the Church of England doth find thee guilty of heresy. In doing so I feel like Festus when he addressed Paul with a loud voice:
“Dr. Moen, thou art mad, much learning doth turn thee mad.” (Acts 26:24)YLT
But in Church of England, sir, thou canst not play the “insanity” card to get off. This is not USA dear sir.
So, I hereby sentence thee to 490 years (10 Jubilees) in the Tower of London. Thereafter, thou shalt be set free.
Because it be told that thou art a nice guy, I wilt do something unorthodox and give thee another choices of punishment:
1. Get it over with and have thy head lobbed off with an axe at the Tower. A zealot named Dorothy has volunteered to do the act which will save the Crown some $$. (These are tough times in UK economy, you know)
Your choice, dear Sir!
God be with thee.
Skip, you wet the appetite. You alluded to the need to know what Paul meant by Children of promise, and then ended. Will you come back to shed more light on what Paul meant?
Sometime, but not soon, I’m afraid. Why don’t you investigate and let us know?
I gues I am being lazy when I ask. I will give it a go!
Hi Roy,
I will help you a little with this question, if you do not mind!
I will be very brief here and come back later in the day and post some more.
You ask a great question which takes us to a Bible theme that is full of intrigue and has repercussions right down to our time!
My quick answer is that the “children of promise” Paul is alluding to are the “descendants” God promised to Abraham. The record of these promises of God started in Genesis 12:
“Now YHVH said to Abram, ‘Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.” (Gen 12:1-2)
Wonderful man that he was – Abraham obeyed and moved his family. As we all probably know, God repeated His promise to Abraham in Genesis 13 and 15 and more. The years went by and Sarai – Abraham’s wife failed to bear the needed child to start the promised fulfillment. Abraham and his wife were going “nuts” in their impatience! And Sarai, Genesis 16 tells us, decided to “help” God and her husband out by having Abram father a child by her handmaid Hagar. Little did she know what she had started when Ishmael was born! Of course, the Sovereign God was behind it all and several years later when Abraham was 99 years old and his wife long past child bearing years – Sarah did indeed have that promised child – Isaac.
Quoting Sarah: “Is anything too hard for YHVH?” I think not.
I appreciate your effort, Roy. It’s so easy to ask a question and want an easy answer. I have and still do it way too much. I’m beginning to ask questions not so much for an answer but for new insight from other generated questions. Which, by the way, often answers questions all by themselves, just by asking more questions.
I have a small Sunday night group that comes over to dive in to various subjects. It has taken a long time to get them to learn how to ask right kinds of questions that provide much in the way toward answers for the questions they start with.
Several times, as I’ve led the group, I deliberately attempted to make the whole sessions just questions. Those few times I’ve made 95-98% of what I say in the form of a question have ended the session with their responses being they thought about more things more deeply than they ever had, simply by having pointed and thoughtful questions slung at them. Amazing.
I certainly know you are familiar with all I’ve just said, I just wanted to send kudos to you for your “I will give it a go!” That encourages me to do the same thing. In regard to this topic and this TW, I think it would go a long way for us all to refrain from declaring so much and start to question more. Paradoxically, I’ve found many more answers that way, and what I am convinced of is distinctly more clear now.
I’ve really stopped trying to ‘save’ people and begun expending more of my energy toward knowing what the path is (that’s Yeshua walking in Torah, of course), getting on it, and staying on it. Don’t have much time to tell others what to believe. If they want to know, all I have to offer is ‘follow me following Him as best I can.”
Kind of like riding mountain bikes . . .
. . . but that’s another installment!
Michael, I can so relate to your comment about not trying to “save” people any more, but expending your energy toward knowing the path and walking on it…I live in a predominately Mormon community. Because of that the “sameness” of misunderstanding all denominations seem to have is much more apparent. They all seem to me to be following after some person’s definition of what salvation means…trying to get others to conform to what ever “thing or things” need to be done in order to be part of their chosen group.
I have found, mostly thanks to TW and Skip, that it is so much more pleasant and easy to follow after the Torah (being different) and asking questions not to trap others but to allow them to wrestle with what they believe themselves.
Since we (as a family) started having Sabbath Supper, many of my children’s friends love to come and sit, eat and talk. Most of them come for the bread I have to admit. It is a time to be together as a family and to show others YHWY not to beat them over the head with what I think is right or wrong.
Yes, Jill, I definitely relate to what you said.
Now, for me, it seems the right and natural way to life. Walk and reflect Yeshua as best you can. Be different enough (Torah reflective) that people take notice and might want to know “what’s up” with you. Then share with them and continue walking Torah, i.e. Yeshua. I’m not sure we really need an Evangelism Explosion as a Torah Explosion. 🙂
Now this is something that a lot of folks ought to sit down and contemplate…I’ve really stopped trying to “save” people and begun expending more of my energy toward knowing what the path is, getting on it and staying on it!
Well said.
I don’t believe Y-H ever said that we (people) save people. Y-H alone “saves.” Indeed. There have been countless programs and methods written to get people saved. Incidentally it has been my experience that when you “succeed” they are then abandoned while you move on.
Each and every one of us has our hands full with our own sin and that is the only sin we need be concerned with. Our lives and how we choose to live then my be the only glimpse of Jesus that many folks get.
~ But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of your Master and Messiah יהשוה/יְהוֹשֻׁעַ. To Him [be] kavod both now and for ever. Amein. (2 Peter 3:18)
Add another amein! (from this adam)
To God be the glory, great things Has has done- “SO LOVED” He the world that He gave us His Son. Who yielded His life an atonement for sin? And opened the “life-gate” that “ALL” may go in?
ALL SCRIPTURE POINTS TO CHRIST. *ALL* SCRIPTURE POINTS TO CHRIST. It is ALL about HIM!
The (long-promised) MESSIAH HAS COME.
The Bible IS our Him-Book.
Doubt no more. Is it “evidence” you desire? Is it “evidence” you seek? Dear doubting Thomases, listen.. listen (certainly not to me!) – Listen to Him. Hear Him speaking.. Watch His life. See the manner of His birth. Witness His miracles. The manner of His birth alone speaks of His divinity. Which neighbor, friend or family member of yours was “virgin-born?” None that I know of. Only ONE- our (our) LORD JESUS WHO IS THE CHRIST.
He came unto HIS OWN. And? AND (for whatever reason) THEY RECEIVED HIM NOT. (may I?)
Why not?
Why would anyone -anywhere reject Christ? Why do they refuse the ONE who has proved HIMSELF over and over and over and over and over again to be WHO HE SAID HE WAS?
He is one of three things. (if you can come up with a fourth- go for it, please..) He IS either
1) a liar
2) a lunatic
3) LORD
We report, “you” decide. Make a decision. Do it and do it now. Choose “YOU” sir.. Choose “YOU” m’am.. Choose YOU THIS DAY- (today, now) “WHO” you will serve.. But as for me and my house.. we will serve (abad) ADONAI. We will serve the LORD.
Oh how subtle is the serpent. “Did God really say that?” (or is God even capable of communication His message to mankind?) Surely (Shirley) you know “better” than God! Did God really say “don’t eat the fruit?” Well.. I say unto you “this or that or even the other thing..”- but DON’T (whatever you do) pay any attention to Him. Do not listen to Him.. Pay Him no attention. Listen.. LISTEN.. listen to me. I am wiser than God.. worship ME !! I am the one who exalted above the Holy ONE.
Listen SNAKE.. Listen to ME. God has said. ARe you hearing me? God DID SAY- (clearly, concisely) “DO NOT EAT the fruit” – for in the day that you eat of it you SHALL surely die. And by the way.. “thank you for reminding me of the life-giving words of my Creator, my Maker, my Provider and my friend. Now go your way and do not ever return here again.
Yes, dear friends.. “if only..” If only ADAM would have listened and obeyed the simple instruction of YHWH, “Adam, don’t”. But we all tend to focus on this one “don’t” instead of the positive “of every tree in the garden you may freely eat”. Friends, this was a Paradise, yet Adam failed.
And ever since Adam man has failed. Shall we review or is this trip down “memory lane” necessary?
Yes, Adam sinned. (oh brother, – here we go..) Who shall we “accuse” next? All right.. let’s ask the question: “Who sinned?” Who is a sinner? Or for some “what IS a sinner?
May we accomplish (quickly) this task of identifying throughout the course of human history (we have thousands of names to list)- who is a sinner? What about our Moses? Did He ever sin? Yep. And our father (our father) “Abraham”- or his beautiful wife Sarah- were they included in the list of sinners?
What about King David or King Solomon- men to whom God gave authority? These Old Testament “heroes of the faith” did they ever sin? (did they ever!!).
Enough of this diatribe, friends- “ALL” have sinned. What (he inquired) is the Hebrew word for “ALL?” What is the Greek word for “ALL?” When God’s Word, the word of the LORD, our Bible, the New Covenant scriptures say: “ALL have sinned”- is there “EVIDENCE” for this? Yes? NO?
Go (now) and LOOK in the mirror. Tell me, (please) Are “YOU” (sir or m’am) able to say (in all honesty) I have never (once in thought or deed) EVER sinned?
I will wait for one among us to say: “NO..never.” – For there is only ONE. Only ONE, the second Adam.
Who is the second Adam? Have you ever heard of Him? Have you ever read the story of His life?
~ What do the scriptures say? ~ (and why am I smiling so?) Oh, Hallelujah! Praise to the God whose Name is Yah! For unto YOU is born this day in the city of David, (Bethlehem, Judea) a SAVIOR who is Christ the LORD!
EVIDENCE????????????? YOU WANT EVIDENCE????????????? (Who wants to run away kicking and screaming?) Who wants to ignore (are these the ones our Bible refers to as “willingly ignorant?”) all this “evidence that demands a verdict”- WHO IS THIS MAN? The ONE “they” call the Christ?
Why? Why, -tell me why- I cannot, I do not understand.. – why do they not believe? How can anyone refuse a Savior like this? Oh.. if they only knew Him!
Oh. how marvelous! Oh.. how wonderful! – and MY song shall ever be.. HOW marvelous! how wonderful!- is my Savior’s love for me! Praises! Praises! Now and forevermore.. ~He is LORD!!~
Adam, abad and adore ADONAI- always! He (alone) is worthy! Worthy is the Lamb who was slain!
Have you heard the good news? He loves you!! Need further proof? – lol!
From the curse to the Cure (Romans 5:12-21)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eBSlRutrQQ
Pi (1994)
A paranoid mathematician searches for a key number that will unlock the universal patterns found in nature.
Director: Darren Aronofsky
Stars: Sean Gullette as Max Cohen
When I first moved to Silicon Valley, I bought a new house with the help of my friend David
Home alone one night, Pi came on one of the movie channels
It was a very strange movie in which a man named Max sees numbers everywhere he goes
In a sense Max is almost haunted by numbers
Watching the movie, I felt sort of foolish because it scared me in a weird way
I had never seen numbers floating around the room, but I seemed to know what he was seeing
Now I have a son named Sean currently studying in Germany who is very good with numbers
And am home alone with my dog Max
I faintly hear the theme song to “Twilight Zone” humming in the background.
🙂
Well — lol — you stand on dangerous ground if your intuition is not any more accurate than that I am a guy!
I most assuredly am a female, married to a very masculine man, we have produced, by God’s blessing, 2 children and 5 grands and 1 great-grand in 50 years of happy marriage. I cook and sew, and the whole nine yards, lol. I could post a pic, but it’d be of no use for any who think I am so great a liar as to post Scripture day after day while living a lie. So there be no use or need to ‘prove’ anything.
Perhaps the diff you “sense” is my strong will of adventure, I was raised very different atmosphere than many are these days. Both my parents were dead–mother when I was 3 yrs old, Father (Pasaiah we called him) when I was 12. He traveled and worked on such sites around the US as Hoover Damn construction, and I lived with two of the best grandparents anyone was ever gifted with, and Irish lady with a magnificent singing voice and my grand dad who was Choctaw Indian. I was raised deep in the piney woods in the manner they lived, — as Native Americans.
I know how to catch a rabbit with no ‘tools’ or whatever one would call that. I rode horses with no saddle and no harness, love the creation our God made, have learned many natural things and been taught many natural observances of nature.
But I was humbled under the hand of my God and Saviour in May of 1985. And have studied and lived for Him ever since then.
Remember, Skip hasn’t asked me to not contribute, — he’s the one who counts. He is man enough that he doesn’t have to have a gang speak for him. Less words from him than the fingers on one hand will cause me to go.
I do apologize to the community for one thing. I post too often. I wish I didn’t. I get excited and my fingers go typing. Really, I think you may be sick of that and I can’t blame you on that account.
I’m sorry you all think its un-American or un-feminine to have a strong belief and that the only remedy is to come around to your way of thinking. You apparently don’t mind putting your own opinions way up high on a pedestal. I have never attacked you for that, I give you more freedom than you are willing to give to me.
I can’t understand why you are so dead-set against a different view!?! If you are as strong as you say in your beliefs, what’s the big deal??
from Dorothy, –decidedly feminine, with no leanings toward any un-naturalness in God’s marvelous universe.
Certainly not speaking for Skip, no need as he is quite capable speaking for himself.
Also, it’s his blog so I, or anyone else, can make any demands on your ability or privilege to post.
Post away as far as I’m concerned, the more conversation the better. However, as has been repeatedly expressed in several ways, your “strong will of adventure” manner of response is one of dogmatic flippancy in that simple recitation of verses just isn’t a helpful measure of discussion. I know that sounds heretical because I’ve grown from that atmosphere that “God’s word is inerrant!” Yes, it is, but the challenge and problem is discovering what it really means in the language it was written is and all the surrounding ramifications. To do that, you just cannot simply recite verses with their English interpretation by some group of people, and have it be a legitimate argument in an arena of arguing (the productive way) about issues of truth and how they apply to life.
I never said, nor do I think anyone else said, that your were either un-American. I’ll just have to take your word that you are feminine as I can’t see you or a picture. Even a picture would have to be trusted. But that is neither here nor there. I apparently wasn’t alone is thinking that possibility. Such is the nature of a blog.
Also, I don’t think anyone has ever demanded you come around to ‘our way’ of thinking. You are the one that joined this blog, no one came forcing it in to your life. And, yes, we do project our opinions. That’s the idea. However, we are all learning to present our opinions within a framework that demonstrates some kind of validity as to truth, veracity, and cohesiveness regarding Torah. It’s a challenge, for sure.
I think the issues that I and others have had is that you walk in and give a response with a Sherman tank approach. THIS is how it is. NOTHING left to discuss. This verse, this verse, and this verse ALL prove what we ALL know is right. Everything else is not.
And, thank you, but I don’t think you need to apologize for too many posts. No one has to read them and it’s free to do so.
It also seems like your adventurous ways like attention, which disagreement can easily create. I would love to continue reading and responding to your responses, but if it keeps going like it has been, I just pass over them, my choice. But, I’d rather hear real discussion from you and share in your life rather than fend off strong dogmatic assertions from you.
Peace. Hopefully.
Dorothy, I sense you have a zeal for the “weightier matters of the law.” I am glad to see it. I don’t believe that community members necessarily wish for you to only “come around to [our] way of thinking.” I believe what is desired is understanding. Rather than see Skip’s teachings as “the old philosophies that exalt themselves against God,” understand that he is presenting a different way of looking at scripture. Surely, with your zeal, you can find “things which make for peace” (Romans 14:19) in the discussions. I don’t know the source of the following statement, but I find it a good guide when presented with differing opinions: “The understanding helped me more than being right.”
Dorothy,
I agree with Thomas. The goal, I hope we can agree on, is to walk in Yeshua’s way, demonstrated by His walking according to Torah, His own word on how we are to live, in a manner after His ways that reflects His character. Skip and others in here are on a quest, a journey in an attempt to unwrap all the mysteries presented in Torah. It’s a life long pilgrimage that requires community walking, talking and taking steps together.
My difficulty with your offerings is the flavor in which it is presented, as if it is the ONLY way to understand Scriptures. It is offensive, frankly. I can handle it, no problem. It’s just a waste of time, effort and energy in the end. The problem, possibly, is for us to come to a place where we can offer our insight openly and unafraid of retribution from others. To do that, an atmosphere needs to exist in which that dialogue can be created and maintained. Differing opinions are welcomed, however, to be healthy and effective we need to learn how to dissect the truth within its own criteria, not pre-sifted through pre-formed sieves that take the shape of denominational and dogmatic ultimatums. The question is not that HaShem’s word is reliable as I am pretty sure that is understood and accepted primarily in here. The difficulty comes in clearing off and purifying that special word from Him from all the junk, crap and garbage that has been added, hung on, and formed around and on His words.
That is very difficult and requires much energy and focus on our part. It’s like these guys that make such definitive statements about what happened billions and billions of years ago. It’s total arrogance to be so dogmatic in that regard. NO one knows with any certainty what happened billions of years ago.
I’ve heard most all the statements you’ve presented in here and I can identify most all of them as a pre-packaged religious presentation complete with exclamations, ultimatums and referendums. Honestly, there are holes in much of those creeds and ‘what we believe’ if you don’t just put yourself on auto and accept them at face value. There are shades, depths, layers, views and questions inherent in every word recorded as His word. Making an all inclusive, definitive declarations and shutting the door on it as an immovable axiom is slighting the richness, magnitude, breadth, scale and depth of His word.
Making those end-all discussion statements in here doesn’t go very far as I can tell. This is a forum that, as exampled by Skip’s creation and leadership in it, does not dictate what is and isn’t. Truths are generally presented in an offering style. What about this…? Could it be…? This could possibly leave room for the possibility of…? Skip usually presents the word in such a way resembling picking up a snow globe and shaking it up, then sitting it in our laps to watch it settle. After shaking, we look at all the parts and pieces floating around. We don’t shake it up ourselves because we have a tendency to not like our worlds upset usually. We can see, possibly, if we’re looking, a new view or perspective of all those pieces as they start to settle. It’s an energetic and emotional exercise most of the time. It seems that is the approach Skip takes in his own quest and he shares it with others via several mediums.
Actually, to have in such close proximity a scholar and lover of Yeshua, such as Skip, is quite the opportunity and even a privilege. I don’t worship Skip. I don’t put him on a pedestal. (I think he’d jump off pretty quickly, anyway, frankly, because he has a big heart and enjoys being on the same level as all his other brothers and sisters.) I don’t blindly follow him and I don’t blindly believe anything and everything he says just because he says it. Skip and others have helped me to search things out, question things and test things. It is rare to be able to have interaction at the level he offers in here.
This is HIS blog. We willingly jumped on the wagon because we want to be in the company of others who are seeking and testing what is being proclaimed as truth in so many places. I’ve had a taste of the academic. It has great value if used properly. Skip has done a good job in that area and he is willing to share the fruits of that part of his life with others. I, for one, am very thankful. His advocating learning to use all the tools available to get at the genuine version of the truth is very helpful. And, clearly, that is what comes through in his teachings, that is, an accompanying nudge to search and seek if what he is saying is so, or not. I want to encourage you to see all that as an advantage, not something to resist or attack or diminish.
Anyway…I’m starting to channel Carl’s habits here! :-O Better quit for now.
(Peace Carl!)
thank you Thomas
WOW..and all this out of one question that I asked as to HOW Skip knew !
General comment on comments:
The point of this Today’s Word was to help us see that we don’t “see” the raw evidence. We see what we already are looking for. So the real investigation must be about HOW WE SEE, not what we see. And all of these comments only make the point even stronger. If you have something to say, understand first WHY you say it. Then you have something to say.
And, by the way, “I say it because God told me,” or “I say it because this is what I have always believed” or “I say it because this is what Scripture says” isn’t sufficient. Those “reasons” are simply paradigm-dependent responses. We are looking for more. We want to know WHY!
General comment on the comments comment:
😉
Good comment!
Whew! This has been sort of a whirlwind.
I kind of like these kind of whirlwinds, eh?
“Commenting on the commentators”- love it! Reminds me of Shakespeare, – but I refrain from quoting him for fear of it being too true!
No, we “Christians” do quote from a source, – that source being what is written within a Book God Himself has inspired and written, using common, ordinary men to do his will. Peter was a fisherman. He wasn’t “Saint Peter” unless you all wish to starting calling me “Saint Carl”- (even though it is true!- I am a saint and so are you *if* you are on of twice-born, regenerated ones, and if you belong to Christ.
Before any of us even start to get “high and mighty” with this “saint” stuff- What is a saint, but a saved sinner? Once a sinner, (saved by grace alone btw- it is the gift of God) but now a son. Yes, one giant leap for any man!
Dorothy, you keep “flying away” with those fingers! Write whatever God inspires you to write. This is what I do. Where do our thoughts come from? Has anyone considered this? Here, in this corner of God’s green planet, we would say, “what’s down in the well comes up in the bucket!”
I share what God has placed upon my heart – but not just to regurgitate some junk, but for the purpose (yes I write purposefully) for the edification of the saints (other twice-born sinners) and the work of the ministry.
There are many things that give me great comfort, but most of all it is the scriptures themselves. Michael C, “every word of God is pure.” Are these my words? No. They are His. These are His inspired words God breathed into a man after His own heart.
~ All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work ~
(2 Timothy 3.17)
Notice please, these words are not mine. This is not my considered opinion. What is our problem that we cannot see what God is saying here? Do we need a translator or commentator or someone with a pedigree to explain this to us? NO. Black ink on white paper- “all” scripture is God-breathed.
God is fully capable of saying what He means and certainly He means what He says! God don’t play. (and you can quote me on that!)
When He says “don’t touch the ark”- Whatever you do- “don’t touch the ark”- (now didn’t that fella mean well when he reached out to steady it?) but what happened? He didn’t listen very well- did he?
(oooh Moses!- now there’s a great man!) No, Moses was also God’s servant. Someone God used to accomplish His will. Not a great man, but a good one. Pharaoh was great, but Moses was good. God said to Moses, “speak to the rock, but instead he struck the rock..” – Moses didn’t listen very well either and suffered for it. He was not allowed to cross over into the land of promise.
~ if any man have ear to hear, -let him hear ~
~ A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels ~ (Proverbs 1.5)
Oops, there it is! – another Bible quote! Whatever will we do with these “Bible-thumpers?” lol!
Please, call me, “tag me”- hang me with the (wonderful) name: “Bible-thumper!” That is exactly who I wish to be..
~ for you do err.. not knowing the scriptures, -nor the power of God ~
This shoe is for you. (if it fits!)
we can whack’em with the shoe if it don’t fits! Lol. — KIDDING folks, flippantly joking, I laugh a lot, too. Just my way.
Besides I know nothing to answer or reply with BUT the Scriptures!
Let everyone ponder their own way, maybe its ‘this way or that way’,–
I like what the BOOK says way. I see nothing to wrangle with, why not just read it and believe it.
Carl, I love you! brotherly way
If you think the issue is about you quoting too much scripture, then you’ve missed the point,… once again. We all know people who have strong personalities, who ‘always tell it like it is’, ect — those characteristics are NOT the issue either. It’s the way you talk through people. It’s the way you ignore what we are saying, and continue with shallow proof-texting and snide comments.
There is a difference between having a strong and confident faith, and simply turning a blind eye to what people are trying to say to you.
Hi Gabe,
you did a good summary! I totally agree 🙂
Thank you, Skip. Please don’t listen to John Walsh. I’d never lop your head off.
There appears to be a definite division here for which I am sad to see.
Pardon all, either I am the first or I will be the last to post here LOL!
“Skip Moen
July 26, 2013 at 7:53 am
What an excellent example of paradigm thinking. Thank you.”
I would so love to presume that this comment was meant for me, Skip! Please please say yes! haha!
————————–
Dorothy-
I seem to have the intuition that you do not read my post/s addressed to you,(forget the courtesy bit ) anyhow, this is what I have to say to what you have posted for all to read, so that needs to be put in the right perspective-
“of all who rest from works and are hidden in Christ Jesus,– will arrive safely at the destination!”
True in a sense, we do not work our way into salvation/redemption, but we are commanded to walk in ALL His instructions. Instructions are meant, by the way, to teach us how to LIVE out our lives, and that means ACTIONS/works that reveal we are truly ‘born from above’. We are to OBEY/carry out those instructions.
Question-are we to be hidden in Meshiach, OR, to be the light in a world of gross darkness?
And, then, are we not told to “WORK out our deliverance with fear and trembling?” Phil 2:12
That is, BEFORE we “will arrive safely at the destination!”, and not simply relying on grace alone, nor-
‘once saved, always saved’, but, seeking to be more set-apart.
“The Word has been given, –rail against its accuracy as long as you like, but it has for generations turning the clubs of cannibals into altar railings in many savage areas, it is ever enlarging the diameter of those circles of light which God has kindled on earth….”
Do you realize that it is ABBA YHWH’s chesed that He is not willing that any perish, but that all should come to repentance? 2 Pet 3:9
That does not mean The Word is accurate or inaccurate, we are emphasizing on translations and interpretations here in this blog, and, from Greek perspective to Hebraic.
Question to you, Dorothy, are you interested in these issues?
Please please P L E A S E give us your answer.
Shalom!
“Please please P L E A S E” was not ignored when I asked it of one gentleman, so I will not ignore it from you.
Please understand that the answers I give are mine, and may or may not come up to your standard, or hope, — this is not a concern with me, for the Holy Spirit is my Teacher and Corrector, etc. He is able. Sometimes He does use a word from someone else to do the job, but mostly He speaks to my heart for that, and gives me encouragement from the voice of others.
This I say with respect to you, and in a respectful manner, not ‘snideness” nor rudeness, as I have been accused of. I never have had any trouble with people I am face to face with, so it would be good to be able to be in the same room as some mentioned yesterday.
Without the benefit of hearing tone in written words, it is the reader who must supply the tone, for good or for ugly, — and speaks more of his/her view than it does the writer of the article.
When a person is in a bad mood, even the phone or doorbell is able to ring with annoyance somehow, but on a better day, it chimes with glad greetings. Sort of what Skip was saying with you get what you look for and expect to find. Then it is everywhere.
1.-are we to be hidden in Meshiach, OR, to be the light in a world of gross darkness?
Both at the same time. We can’t be the light without being in Him. Paul says, For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. How does that happen to anyone? By being found *in Him.*
2. And, then, are we not told to “WORK out our deliverance with fear and trembling?” Phil 2:12
“work out your salvation” is to be busy in the things that come with your salvation, such as hearing of the Word, submission to the Gospel, loving others, etc. continue in believing in Christ, sharing His Word with others — as beggar to begger — all the rest of your days living for Him.
He gave His life for me, now I give the latter portion to Him, wishing I had given Him more, sooner, but I bring what I have now, and He multiplies it, and at last I will be presented faultless before the throne without spot or wrinkle. There is nothing to add to what Christ has done already in obtaining our salvation. Part of being in Him is “do”, but lots of it is “be”.
3. Do you realize that it is ABBA YHWH’s chesed that He is not willing that any perish, but that all should come to repentance? 2 Pet 3:9
Yes, certainly. . .
..not wishing or desiring for He has no pleasure in the wicked dying (Ez. 18:23, 32, and Ez. 33:11).
He has made a way for all to come to repentance, and wishes they would. So do I. Before I knew Jesus this was not a concern for me, now I have His mind in this matter, and it matters very much to me.
But I don’t try to save them myself, how ridiculous that would be! I plant, another waters, The Spirit reaps. It is the Holy Spirit who ‘works a case’ like an attorney. He brings witness after witness as He sees fit, the witnesses likely don’t even know each other, but the case is being built for the eyes to be opened at the perfect moment. Then comes along someone and says a few words and the person falls weeping at his/her sins and asking how to be right with God. I’ve had that happen to me.
4. are you interested in these issues?
I am interested in every word in the Bible. I believe God is able to communicate with me in my own language.
That was all what you asked.
You are correct in your guess that I do not read all comments posted. I’m not interested in all everyone says, and nothing some others say. Its not my blog, I’m a visitor. The blog owner will tend to the details and doesn’t need my help with a thing.
Its fine with me for any who want to chat back and forth all day. I have no complaint about nor encouragement for doing as you like.
Me and most here are of a different viewpoint, so that does not lead to long conversations, and repeated ‘I say, you say’ until I am exhausted.
If that is interrupted as short-tempered, its a wrong interruption. I helped someone out for several hours yesterday. I simply don’t have time to beat the horse every single day.
I cried a lot yesterday, but kept busy and accomplished a hand-up for someone in need.
Did I stupidly say “I”? Jesus did it, He gets the credit, I didn’t have the energy of myself.
I didn’t understand yesterday at all. I am not stopping anyone from engaging in all the conversation they want to about the TW for the day. Why wasn’t everyone busy doing exactly that yesterday, I wonder?
Some think I am a ‘man’ and another a ‘man or a plant’!
God in me controlled my tongue towards Michael C. Thank You, Lord Jesus.
Later in the night, I found, to my great surprise, that I was ministered to by Daria yesterday.
Her words were the only ones that lept off the page at me!
The specific ones were “shes a plant”, and later the verses began to come:
Ps. 1: 3 , Jer. 17: 8, Prov. 11: 28
I got up today and made those my morning study.
And what was meant for evil have been turned for good and blessing.
Hi Dorothy,
In the interest of accuracy, I believe it was Darlene (July 26 at 2:03 pm), not, Daria, who suggested you might be a plant. And by “plant,” I’m pretty sure she was implying that you mighy be planted at the website (like a spy) to stir things up a bit…not the botanical definition (as your Scripture references suggest).
My apologies if I’m mistaken on either count.
1-“I never have had any trouble with people I am face to face with, so it would be good to be able to be in the same room as some mentioned yesterday.
2-Without the benefit of hearing tone in written words, it is the reader who must supply the tone, for good or for ugly, — and speaks more of his/her view than it does the writer of the article.”
3-“And what was meant for evil have been turned for good and blessing.”
Hmmm. Very interesting. We finally agree on something Dorothy. I believe your first sentence above references my comment. Hooray!
Further in this same regard, your second sentence above is pretty much what much discussion has been in here lately. We haven’t actually heard the audible words of the prophets, writers and apostles speaking. We have only read it in an English translation today, which is far, far removed from the time, culture and linguistically frame reference. No one alive today has heard His word, only read a translated rendition of it, unless you read Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. It is for that very basic principle that such heavy and pointed conversation has been given in here about the importance of not relying so heavily on an English translation.
Your second statement above, I believe, acknowledges that, yet you have created and developed a personal, secret language, somehow between you and God. If God actually spoke to you, then does whatever He tell you rise to the same level of inspired Scripture? If not, then how can you or anyone claim that God spoke to them specifically. At the least, having this ability or gift who classify you on par with any of the prophets of the Tanakh, correct?
If you and I do this deciphering skill in this blog dealing only in the written words of someone, wouldn’t it be feasible, a thousand fold over, that it occurs with our dealing with Scripture written hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago in a different culture, different land, different language?
I guess the frustration I have with many of the things you share is the rigid and flimsy framework you communicate in. Dorothy, please be clear in understanding, this statement and all others I’ve made was NOT “meant for evil” toward you (third statement above). You are reading that INTO my statements. I have simply and merely attempted to isolate issues regarding ways and means of interpretation of Scripture.
I mean it seems your response to the idea of a ‘plant’ prompted you to do a Google search for any verses that had ‘plant’ in them?! Eh? What’s that about?
Your comments continually illustrate a simple minded approach of driving a stake in ‘what I know’ and refusing to acknowledge the remotest possibility of taking one step to the left or to the right and look at something as a possibility. (Que-look up phrase, “to the right or to the left”)
The method of understanding Scripture as I think I understand you describing would then allow me to read any comment you make and, regardless of what you meant, I am allowed to determine exactly what YOU meant via MY interpretation. So, basically, I should be allowed, according to your method of Scriptural interpretation, to make whatever you write say whatever I want it to say, irregardless of your original intended meaning. Is that correct or in error? If correct, then isn’t that how you approach your own Scriptural interpretation method? If in error, if I can’t do it regarding your words, how is it right to do it with Scripture?
Dorothy, let me share a parenthetical explanation. Any and all words I write in here, even directed to you, have no innate evil flavor or intent, ever. I have the greatest desire to learn just what the heck YHVH is trying to say to me and us in this volume I constantly give my attention to. It is one of the biggest challenges in my life I think. It is hard. I WISH I could just pray and ask YHVH to magically pop the full explanation deep in my mind and soul. I just do not think it works so easily and magically as I’ve been taught in my long years of Christian upbringing.
4-“Did I stupidly say “I”? Jesus did it, He gets the credit, I didn’t have the energy of myself.”
Massiach in me, the hope of glory is what I’ve been told. I didn’t do it, but Yeshua did it in me and through
me. My question, and honestly, I have always had a challenge trying to grasp the truth of that concept. Do I just strain my brain thoughts, tense up real hard and wish and hope for Yeshua to jump in side me somehow and without any effort of my own, just do His will and work? Did I not have any part, energy, or effort in the matter? Does Yeshuah just mystically and magically move my limbs, muscles, sinews to perform that Godly act? Really, just how does that work? Just let go and let God. Ok, I’ve let go. Now what, just sit and wait for energy to be beamed in to me empowering all the physics involved so my body will follow suit? Nothing happening? Or nothing happening that seems very good? Oh, it must be that I don’t have enough faith or belief in His power and strength?
Those are a fraction of the many, many questions I had but never really addressed for so many years. Oh, yes, it’s because I didn’t have the proper preaching pointed my way. I, unfortunately, wasn’t in a mature, Bible believing church that truly honored and trusted Yeshua enough? Rarely did I ever get answers that really made sense, but just hollow and empty religious denomination phrases. Go to a different church and I got the same fogginess with just a little different twist.
Oh, my. Epic length. I’ll shut up for a while.
So much to say and only one lifetime to attempt it!
Brain diarrhea again.
I have tried to stay out of the fray, but feel as though I must make a comment in regard to Dorothy. Unfortunately Dorothy is not alone in how she views Scripture. I would venture to say the vast majority of Christians in evangelical churches today think exactly like Dorothy. And nothing will change her mind or their minds. She believes firmly that the the English translation of the Scriptures that she has in her hands is the inspired word of God and that any challenge to that notion is pure heresy. This is what we are up against. No amount of words will change her mind.
If you were her with her paradigm that her Bible, as she has it (and interprets it) is purely God’s word, would you believe it or would you believe some words on a blog that may disagree with her Bible? Of course you would only believe what her English Bible says. With her paradigm there is no room for anything else. We can talk until we are blue in the face and it won’t make any difference. We might as well be talking to a wall. It is an entire waste of time. Until Dorothy has a paradigm shift and begins to acknowledge that items such as culture, context, and language have a profound effect on meaning, there really is nothing more to say to her. It is sad to say, but true.
In my opinion, it really is a pride issue. It is saying that not only does English usurp all other languages spoken around the world today, but it also usurps the languages in which the Scriptures were originally written, Hebrew and Greek. Until Dorothy humbles herself before God and man, she will never experience what the Scriptures really have to say to her. How tragic….
Hi Gary,
True! This is my experience trying to reach out to Christians. It’s like banging your head against the concrete wall.
Pride is the result of what I believe is Dorothy’s heart issue. Dorothy has walls built up and inside those walls she feels safe. Anything presented to her to shake her understanding of what she believes to be true will only result in pushing her further into her cave. This is not a issue of theological differences, this is a result of fear. Dorothy is fearful, if her understanding is stripped away she becomes like the little girl in times square who has lost her parents and has no idea where to go.
I expect denial of my assessment, but denial is the usual defense mechanism to protect pride in order not to feel the fear. It is the fear that there might be another way, a way that will bring me closer to God but that challenges what I believe now. The fear can only be overcome by moving into it, not away from it. We have all been there and most of us are still moving into our own fears in order to draw closer to Him.
So much going here, it’s back to Torah days of midrashing, passionate discussion on Scriptures, in the synagogues!
That’s good, IF we are simply coming from a different viewpoint and/understanding, BUT, if it’s solely to prove others wrong by quoting verse after verse from the Bible but not expressing what it is understood by the person presenting them FROM the Hebraic perspective, is the problem.
Then, when that is understood by the readers of the blog, BOTH, Carl, and Dorothy, refuse to even try, nor seek from ABBA to see where the dissensions arose from, rather, you put up a defensive front. That is grievous to our spirits.
Are we ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of truth, for the reason that we are sadly rooted in the wrong teachings, and not desire a teachable spirit? 2 Tim 3:7
Reminder to both Carl, and Dorothy the main purpose of TW’s by Skip is to show us the difference between what Greek and Hebraic perspectives are, from cultural, language and translations- interpretations by authors who translated the Bibles.
4. are you interested in these issues?
“I am interested in every word in the Bible. I believe God is able to communicate with me in my own language.”
Dorothy-Would you agree that your English Bible is a translated Bible? From whatever language that you may chose to believe in?
Do you comprehend that any translated book or article WILL miss out beautiful essence of the language that was translated from?
Carl, and Dorothy (thank you for replying) please try to grasp that most folks here have departed from christianity, are pretty much grounded in Scriptures, please QUIT quoting verses unless you are presenting it from a Hebraic understanding that we are interested in, that we can learn something from? We will appreciate that!
Shalom!
Wow! I am sorry I was pre-occupied and missed out on this one; or perhaps not.
Skip, it is your web site and blog, but I think sarcasm is unbecoming a Christian man of your intellectual stature; frustration or not. Yet, you still have my support.
As for the multitude of other comments that followed, well let me just say that there are those who would search and find (determine) truth in their minds, and those who would search and find truth in their hearts, and then there are those who do both; like Michael C., whose mind knows Obama is President, but his heart says he should not be. I’m with you on this point Michael, but when it comes to the name above all names, I invited Jesus into my heart, and by surrending my will and understanding to Him on a daily basis, I hope to grow up into Him.
Now Skip might say that in order to do that, I must understand and implement His Jewish traditions, but I disagree. Since He knew me before I was born, and He knows the words on my tongue before I speak, do I really need to study Him and His ways, or just accept His mercy and grace and humble myself before HIm. If the Spirit lives in us, then let Him live in me.
BTW, the paradigm on numbers is 100% accurate. Years ago, I became fascinated by the number 48, and then it showed up everywhere. The gas pump would stop at $21.48; the food bill was $10.48. My new bank account had 48 in it. Paradigms are real, and they exist on both sides of this issue. Some are of the intellectual paradigm group in dissecting the Word and attempting greater understanding, and some are of trusting that both the Word of God and the Holy Spirit are living and active, and fully capable of directing our paths forward.
Skip, thank you for your web site, as I am able to glean some truths from your postings and apply them to my daily living, trusting always in the Holy Spirit to search my heart and convict me of wrongs, and lead me in the everlasting way.
Dorothy, no not be discouraged, but carry on.
John
Thanks, John, Esther, Gary and Keith. Good comments.
Ester, my head seems to stay sore banging against the bricks. I need to learn to have a balance of responding and then walking away. It’s a challenge for me.
John, I’m not sure I totally agree. Sarcasm can be effective and appropriate at select times. I think this was one of them. The issue at hand warrants it, I think. It’s really a big issue with large and heavy ramifications if any one really wants to face them. But, unfortunately, most open the refrigerator door, peak in and then slam it shut settling for going to McDonald’s instead, happy in their favorite fast food answers.
Ester, yes, I yearn for a flock of fellow sheep around me, not just on this blog, but in my neighborhood, to share some good ol’ midrashing together, hashing out stuff seriously and vigorously and then going to a restaurant and chowing down with some good loving company, comfortable and confidant in the love of our relationships, even though we can positively argue the particulars of Torah knowing our common collective end is to understand it and move forward in it together.
Keith, I know that pride and fear personally. I remember refusing to address the glaring inconsistencies choosing to continue to walk in the fogginess. I was fearful of anything being said that wrapped against my beloved dogmas I had so carefully set up in my place of worship. I was comfortable and aghast toward anything that bumped up against them and set myself on faithfully defending them at all cost. I mostly just tried to stay clear of all that so I wouldn’t become ‘infected’ with the perceived heresy of it.
It took individuals like Skip and a hand full of others to help me step out of the bomb shelter I had constructed around my beliefs. Facing having to shelve my then current views to give chance to new ones was horribly frightening at times. But, step by step, listening to people present clear and rationale views and explanations of a new paradigm began to usher in a new freedom. It is easy to compact that rather long and arduous journey in to a few paragraphs, however, truth is, it was difficult, perilous appearing and a rather protracted journey. Once finally realizing the distance I had come, it seemed quite natural and the child birth pangs were difficult to remember having enjoyed the environment I had come to occupy in my new understanding of Yeshua type things.
Life is not really any less difficult, but just clearer. Being clearer it is more fulfilling in taking those unique steps each day. I don’t have on all those dogmatic, denominational trinkets anymore. Well, there’s possibly a few still clinging to me, but I’m steadily sorting them out, spring cleaning and trashing them as they appear about my life. It’s a process but it is a progressing one, generally speaking.
Thanks Skip. Thanks to all for sharing in the journey. Hopefully, Dorothy will come along with us one day.
I certainly hope so. The only way I know to love her from where I am to wherever SHE is, is by simply sharing the truth as best I can via the words in here.
Maybe she’ll join a Hebrew class sometime. 🙂 If so, Dorothy, watch out. The gold nuggets of Yeshua’s truth will smack you squarely in the face, by-passing the English renditions. It’ll be an E-ticket ride (if you remember what that is!) If not Google Disney World of twenty or so years ago. E-ticket rides were the best, highest and most thrilling rides in the park!
Shalom.
Dorothy,
Some days you’re the windshield and some days you’re the bug!
Growth is always hard but better a rebuke from a friend than flattery and lies from an enemy. My own paraphrase there!
I personally find much comfort in waking up each morning to the sure knowledge that Y-H’s mercies are new every day and that every day is a new beginning and I am free to choose how I will live it and what I will say. You get my drift.
I am not going to offer anything regarding all the comments above but I do want to encourage you to keep listening for Y-H’s teaching and to really be willing to put all of the standard religious teachings on the table to rethink. Keep em if you choose to but at least be willing to honestly have a good look.
As I am fond of saying to my daughter, it is never to late to do the right thing!
Interpret that however you like.
Shalom,
Dawn