A Strange Admission
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope; 1 Timothy 1:1 NASB
God our savior – In the Greek text (Nestle-Arland 27th Edition), this verse reads kat’ epitagen theos soteros hemon. That is properly translated “according to the command of God our savior.” Does this seem at all strange to you? I thought it was supposed to be “Jesus saves.”
Why would anyone have a problem with “God our savior”? Perhaps it’s because the evangelical emphasis on personal salvation always directs attention to Christ. He is the means of salvation. He is the ransom for our sin. He is the one that we must ask for forgiveness. He is the object of our faith. The evangelical world had a soteriological fixation on Jesus. A suggestion by Paul that God is our savior seems incompatible with this focus on Jesus. Maybe we can reconcile this by saying that the Trinity solves the problem. Yeshua is God and therefore Paul can address either one as savior. But then why doesn’t he? Why does he seem to distinguish between these roles?
“Why would Paul call God our savior when he knew perfectly well the role of Yeshua?” This suggests something we may not be ready to embrace. Paul knew Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah, but that doesn’t mean he thought of the Messiah as the one who saves. Paul’s orientation is thoroughly based in the Tanakh, and in the Tanakh God saves. The role of the Messiah is different. The Messiah comes to usher in a new age, to guarantee the eternal presence of the Kingdom, to finish the work of overthrowing the enemy. But God saves.
Paul is not an evangelical Christian. He is a Jewish rabbi who knows that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. What does the Messiah do? The Messiah brings the solution to the problem of death. God saves. Yeshua delivers. There is a difference, isn’t there? If Paul is a man of the Tanakh, he sees Yeshua in the light of the Tanakh.
I don’t think the “Trinity” is an answer to this dilemma. It might be an answer three hundred years later, but I don’t think it is an answer for Paul. Paul doesn’t seem to employ Trinitarian concepts to meld Yeshua and the Father. In fact, he does just the opposite. He often writes differentiating the two. This drives us back to the Tanakh, Paul’s “Bible.” If we are going to understand the role of the Messiah, we must find the foundation of that role in the Tanakh, not in the works of the early Church fathers some two hundred or more years later. I wonder how much of our Messianic understanding really comes from the sacred Scriptures of Paul rather than the theological musing of Augustine. Perhaps we should investigate.
Topical Index: Messiah, our savior, theos hemon, 1 Timothy 1:1
Today’s “Today’s Word” is such a blessing to me. So many of the Today’s Word messages seem to cover the topics of my personal study and walk with my Elohim. I simply *must* comment today especially. I agree with Paul wholeheartedly, and this note puts into words the knowledge and understanding of which the Spirit of the Holy One has so graciously put into my spirit and heart. This is very common with the “Today’s Word” notes for me. Skip Moen, you are a tremendous blessing to me. Your writings, through the surgical dissection of the true language of Scripture, are a constant proof and reassurance that the promise is true: The Set Apart Spirit will lead and teach us all truth (even if I cannot put into words or find the exact scripture with the exact translation) what I *know* to be true because of His teaching. Yahusha delivers. Elohim saves. Amein! This admission is not strange to me but truth and I “get it” HalleluYah! 🙂
“Perhaps” we might actually admit we do not have a full understanding of the tri-unity of Elohim. Elohim, btw is plural. Let US make man in “our” image. Yes, there is the Father. Yes, there is the Son and Yes, there is the Ruach.
So much for our attempt to put God in a bottle. Who is large and “who” is in charge? Rest assured, it is not “me!” All I know of God I know from a Book God (Himself) has written. Men, common men, have always been the “tools” God uses to do what needs to be done. Moses (St. Moses?) was a man. So was Adam. So was Isaiah. So was Peter, James and John. Mary, Martha- every one are human. Who else became the “creature?” Our Creator. God became a Man and lived here “with us.”
Christ was crucified because we welcomed God to earth like that. That is how perverted we are and that is our mindset. ~ Away with him, let Him be crucified.. ~ And who did we choose between Yeshua HaMaschiach and a known murderer? “Release unto us Barabbas!” Really? We would rather a hardened criminal over One we know is innocent? Why? Perverted people, all. This is who we are.
~ and if the Son shall set you free- you shall be free indeed ~
I’m glad I’m not God. This world would be full of smoking cinders.
~ “But God..” (two of my all time favorite words- ever!)
But God demonstrated His (great) love for us.. (How?)
Christ died for who?
Thank you Skip for putting so eloquently into words something that so many are wrestling with right now .. Abba is truly bringing about the full restoration of ALL Israel! Knowledge is increasing and going forth – HIS knowledge…may we all be delivered by the hand of the Messiah – the SALVATION – of YHVH and be redeemed/delivered by the Holy One!
Blessing to you – where ever your are 🙂
Pam
Sitting in Heathrow airport waiting for the flight to South Africa – and already a day late as the flight yesterday was cancelled.
do you never sit still? 😉
When I am dead, I’m afraid.
I sincerely hope you are enjoying the journeys, both of them 🙂
Thanks, but this one has been a bit of a mess. I am here in London, already a day late to get to South Africa, which means the conference I was supposed to start is absent the teacher – and I have a 12 hour layover in the airport. Can’t wait to go.
Hmmm. I do find this verse very interesting, but we must always remember to keep all of scripture in perspective. For when the Angel of God anounces to Mary what she must call her son what does he say.
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Yeshua (salvation), for he will (yā·šǎʿ) save his people from their sins.”
Did not Paul have time to speak and learn some from the Apostles in Jerusalem not to long after his conversion. Is there even more here in regards to the fullness of who the Messiah is?
Paul says this in Colosians 1:15-20.
(Complete Jewish Bible : Col 1:15) He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation, 16 because in connection with him were created all things—in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, rulers or authorities—they have all been created through him and for him. 17 He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. 18 Also he is head of the Body, the Messianic Community—he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might hold first place in everything. 19 For it pleased God to have his full being live in his Son 20 and through his Son to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace through him, through having his Son shed his blood by being executed on a stake.
In Light of just these verses I wonder if there is not a whole lot more here than we understand. Paul is not easy to understand and it is even harder today with the muddy waters we have to tredge through.
Blessings
Robert
This is only a strange admission depending on which paradigm you are looking through!
There has been a current discussion among some friends that goes something like this…..
Since Moses and Abraham and Joshua and others died long before Jesus was born, and since Jesus is the only way to the Father AND Jesus saves; how then did these men get saved? We know that they are but how?
I believe today’s post is the spot on explanation here.
I will be sharing this for food for thought.
A recent post or two made it clear how Jesus paid the penalty of sin (which is death). Death was conquered by the cross but salvation has always been thru Y-H.
It is appointed to all to die once but then the resurrection. The grave cannot hold me because it could not hold Jesus (He being the first fruit) and so death is conquered.
Again, to my mind, we have something rather simple that has been made complex and difficult to understand by religion over the years. The clearing of these webs out of my mind is very freeing and continues to resonate with the Messiahs words-take upon you my yoke, the burden is light.
Paraphrasing all mine!
Dawn,
You expressed what I’ve been thinking, too. Reading your response resonated with me. It was all kind of complicated before. It was pounded in to my head, but it never really completely made sense, just had to accept it ‘by faith’ and go along.
What you are beginning to understand about Yeshua’s accomplishment through His death, how Skip has been attempting to lay it out just makes sense to me as well. Simple. Nothing contorted to a religious phrase, just to the point and buttoned up. Issues addressed and adequately answered.
Yes, freeing, indeed.
I could never understand the trinity explanation, I mean really, the egg yoke white and the shell never made any sense to me. as to why the catholic church adopted the trinity principle is beyond me. The conclusion that I have come to is that Hashem is one, and Yeshuah and the spirit are attributes of Hashem. Whenever the Jewish people call something that we are doing idolatry, we need to step back and think about it. The difference is that when Yeshuah went back to Heaven he did not “sit AT the right hand of God, he sat AS the right hand of God.” This means Yahuah is one.
Brian, you are already in the middle of the problem as soon as you use the word “attribute.” Greek philosophy rides on the coat tails of “attributes.” Just look at ANY Christian systematic theology. Attribute is a NOUN based idea of person. Try formulating the entire concept in terms of VERBS (YHWH) and see where that takes you.
Read each of these passages and note how God (Father), Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit are brought together as instruments of our salvation.
Romans 14:17-18; 15:16; 1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22;
Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6;
Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5;
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6
The writers show no feeling of strangeness in joining these divine Persons together as a unity in their work of salvation.
•May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all 2 Cor. 13:14.
•To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood. 1 Peter 1:1-2.
These are not men’s writings! (men only held the quill) This is Holy Scripture.
I encourage you to read here: http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html
Notice I do NOT encourage you to “just believe me” — or them–, you are responsible for working out your own salvation.
Seek God and He will be found. God is just as available to you on the same level you seek Him.
There are no super saints, only a “Super God”.
He still speaks. He guides. He has wisdom for those who seek it. I know you know that.
blessings in your seeking.
I so love your candor. You willingness to look at a “thing” without an agenda and to ask questions about what it means. I have long wondered about the trinity when there are so many passages that are contradictory. Like in the throne room of God there appears the Lamb. If two objects are present (or beings in this case) they are not the same. They are not one, they are two. (or in this case three because the spirit of God is resented there too, if memory serves me)
And why does Yeshua pray to the Father if He IS the Father, it just doesn’t make any sense? When He talks about “if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father” couldn’t that be more like if you see someones son who is just like their father and that kids says, hey if you know me, you know my dad – we are two peas in a pod. I’m not saying that He isn’t divine in His own right, just that He is not the exact same being. If He is the exact same being, then I just don’t get it…
Jill,
I struggle then when Paul writes something like this…
(Complete Jewish Bible : Col 1:15) He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation, 16 because in connection with him were created all things—in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, rulers or authorities—they have all been created through him and for him. 17 He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. 18 Also he is head of the Body, the Messianic Community—he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might hold first place in everything. 19 For it pleased God to have his full being live in his Son 20 and through his Son to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace through him, through having his Son shed his blood by being executed on a stake.
“For it pleased God to have his full being live in his Son 20 and through his Son to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace through him, through having his Son shed his blood by being executed on a stake” I don’t see where Paul is saying that Yashua IS the Father, any more than saying my son IS his Father..though if you know my son, you know his father. They are so much alike. The fullness of the essence of who is the Father is manifest in the Son who is the visible image of the Father. If my husband were to die, his son would be the visible manifestation of who he was. (not that my family is divine in any sense of the word – just using them as analogy)
The being who is “the son” has shown Himself in time before the incarnation right? Yashua has always existed, it is just that they are not the same EXACT being. God is one, not three, we worship the Father, through the Son by the power of the Spirit? Three beings one essence?
Robert I don’t know these answers, but am grateful that we can look at the questions, and in doing so perhaps grow closer to the Master we serve.
Still contemplating this Father, Son, Ruach haKodesh reality.
Whew!
I still think I’ve got too much previous misconstrued theological garbage hanging about me to grasp this as Shaul and the other apostles did.
The trinity explanation is terribly flimsy to me now.
but it wasn’t a struggle for Paul – and he was a Jewish rabbi. So the problem must be with us, not him.
And neither did the disciples.
Yashuah and the spirit are not attributes of God,rather they “are” his character sent out to serve his purpose.To bring his people back to him (back to torah).Wich is also his character.
Is it distinctions/”differentiating the two” Paul is making or synonymous Hebraic parallelism?
The statement “god saves” by Paul properly reflects the understanding of Pessah and the Lamb of God. Hashem saves us and Yeshua is both the sacrifice and the gift ergo Yeshua is acknowledged as the salvation Hashem gives Israel.
I am here and I am reading.. It is not wise to talk to a HEBREW about the Trinity.
The trinity is NOT a mysterious: it is error.
The mystery is: and without contraversy…GREAT is the mystery of godliness: God was MANifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen ( YES SEEN) of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I fully accept this and yet I still can not read Hebrew.
OK, I’ll chime is as well. I also have moved away the Trinity as an explanation/understanding of how God YHWH functions. In the Garden of Eden Satan offered Eve (and Adam) “godship” if they would do their own thing (i.e. be autonomous) They went for the fruit and the rest is history. Down through the ages virtually every man born has opted “to be as god” except for one man… Yeshua. He ONLY did the Father’s will, never did his own thing autonomously. However the notion of a God-man was quite popular in pagan religions. Notice how the Greeks thought Paul and Silas were Hermes and Zeus, as “god men”. It took a few centuries but the church made Yeshua/Jesus God just the same…
I have an article from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy that outlines the History of Trinitarian Doctrines. “No trinitarian doctrine is explicitly taught in the Old Testament”. Trinitarians normally grant this… “The New Testament contains no explicit trinitarian doctrine” Rather many hold that it is “inferred”. Is there another part to the Bible I missed?? Yet the first belief statements of most churches start with God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Paul was a smart cookie. Highly educated, well seasoned
and given to choose his words carefully.
In 1 Tim 1:1 he rightfully refers to God as our Savior, because
He is. And he rightfully refers to Jesus as our hope, because
He is. He’s our hope for eternal life because of His victorious
death and resurrection.
But also please note how carefully Paul choses his words in
Titus 2:13 “…looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing
of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ…”
And again in Titus 3:6 Paul carefully said, “…whom He poured out
on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior.”
Even John, also given to careful wording, writes the following in
1 JN 4:14 “and we have seen and testify that the Father has sent
the Son as Savior of the world.”
No question Paul is a well respected Jewish rabbi. But “something”
happened to him on the road to Demascus. Paul describes the results
of his encounter in Phil 3:7-11. His carefully chosen words are that
of a “new” man!
Nicodemus, another highly regarded Jewish leader, had a similar
encounter. He went to see Jesus because he wasn’t understanding
or “seeing” all he felt he should be. He certainly wasn’t expecting
to be led to become a “new” man either.
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and
the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Let’s not miss this: Jesus said this to Nicodemus twice in Jn3:3
and Jn 3:5. New birth.
Can I assume Jesus also chose His words carefully?
I believe He did with all my heart!
Jesus left Nicodemus with these words: “For God did not send
His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world
through Him might be saved.” Jn 3:17
Speaking for myself, these words seem pretty clear to me.
so, Rich, trinity yes or trinity no or not even going there LOL
the next verse JN 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Not in God, but in His son…if God is One and the Son is not the Father than how can they be ONE?
It is my personal opinion that much that is spouted in the church, based on some old men’s opinions, is much like “the Emperor’s New Clothes”.
But also please note how carefully Paul choses his words in
Titus 2:13 “…looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing
of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ…”
And again in Titus 3:6 Paul carefully said, “…whom He poured out
on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior.”
Hi Rich,
Good point, the only way to get from the Jewish Yeshua (salvation)
To the Christian Jesus as savior and God
I’s to attribute to Paul text that he did not write
Titus is a corrupt text
Hi Jill,
Your opinion works for you.
Jesus’s opinion works for Him. At the end of Matthew’s gospel Jesus said:
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”
Again, Jesus chose His words carefully. Note that He did not say the “names”
of, but the name of. The name of God. Because there is only ONE God.
The Father. The Son. The Holy Spirit.
Trying to explain how that equates to ONE God is beyond my pay grade.
But I know what my opinion is!
Rich, Since we are all here seeking truth (OK, I grant that some may be here for other reasons) and since Skip seems to have been ‘given’ a lion’s share of it (but by no means a monopoly on it), you might want to do a search on Skip’s search engine for the tag ” Matthew 28:19 “. There you will find a Baker’s Dozen of entries to feast upon and determine if your position is as’ tasty’ or ‘truthy’ as you imagine. And that is just on that glos…uhh, I mean, verse. I imagine there are many more TW’s on that general topic if you search Trinity, Trinitarianism or maybe even “silly doctrines that the Church invented and didn’t consult the Jews on, but are now too invested in it to recant”. I haven’t figured out my position on the subject, but I know when something ain’t right. Much like Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart who once wrote in a brief on a famous obscenity case: “hard-core pornography” is hard to define, but “I know it when I see it.” And this doctrine, in my opinion, is obscene and I avert my eyes (and heart) from it just as quickly and surely as if I were exposed to pornography of any shade ( as in “50 Shades of Grey”) or weight (hard or soft core porn). In pursuit of Truth and not opinion, Michael
Michael,
What “ain’t right” about words that came out of Jesus’s mouth???
And comparing them to pornography puts me in a speechless
position.
Michael (Old Testament) means the guardian archangel of the Jews
Yeshua literally means The LORD’s Salvation
Hi Rich,
If I say I’m Michael I don’t mean I’m the guardian archangel of the Jews
By the same token, if Yeshua says I’m Yeshua he does not mean he’s the The LORD’s Salvation
When Yeshua refers to himself as the Son of Man and the Son of God (as I recall)
If we take him at his word we cannot believe Yeshua is God
Because God is a completely different character than Yeshua, the Son of Man, and the Son of God
And God is in a father/son relationship these subordinates
Rich, How did you find the time to read and mediate on those 13 articles I directed you to and the multitude of Skip’s posts on the ‘so called’ Trinity in the space of 33 minutes from the time of my posting to your tart response. I admire your speed reading ability ( but if you didn’t read them, I hope my offensive remarks won’t keep you from reading them at some point). Had you read any of them you would have seen that these “sacred” words of Jesus in Matthew 28:19 were, in all probability, the added words of some unknown scribe. That is what I meant when I used the term gloss. As to your vocalized “speechlessness” – it is not the words that came out of Yeshua’s mouth (since He didn’t utter them) that I addressed or have the problem. And since, as far as we know, He never uttered the words trinity or trinitarianism, it must be the “concepts” which you ascribe to those words where I have my difficulty. Have you asked yourself where did these beliefs originate? Do they agree with the rest of the Scriptures, especially the Torah-as understood by those who would have been the recipients of it originally? Yes, perhaps my use of the word ‘pornographic’ in describing the CONCEPT of having 3 gods was too graphic for a PG16 audience; it would have been much better to call a spade a spade and label it blasphemous. I did not, would not and cannot call Yeshua’s words pornographic and to imply that I did is either an error in your understanding my grammar, syntax and vocabulary or a much graver error on your part in judging my heart. I’ll assume the former. I apologize for my verboseness and bombastic diction (whoops did it again). My wife often reminds me to tone it down, edit it or completely toss it, but occasionally she isn’t looking and I post something uncensored, as was the case earlier. Maybe THAT is why YHWH allowed bigamy. Michael
Firstly, have safe trips, Skip, and a wonderful time of sowing and reaping. ABBA with you! Look forward to testimonies.
———————-
Lets start from the very beginning-all along in the Tanakh, in Hebrew, YHWH and AlephTav is One.
They were One from the very beginning so wrote John 1:1 The Word, Yahshua (YAH saves), Yeshua (salvation/deliverance), is Elohim.
Notice that save, or yasha in Hebrew means:- to save, be saved, be delivered, to be liberated, be saved, be delivered, to be saved (in battle), be victorious, to save, deliver; to save from moral troubles, to give victory to.
As long as Elohim is used throughout the Tanakh/”OT”, that refers to both YHWH and AlephTav, together as One. Sh’ma/hear/listen/guard, our Elohim is One!
Both YHWH and AlephTav is The Beginning and The End. Rev 1:8 I AM the AlpehTav, Beginning and End, says YHWH Who is, and Who was, and Who is to come…….
In the Hebrew text Gen 1:1 בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
It is “Elohim AlephTav” something some Rabbinical sages cannot explain, neither is that translated in the English.
John 8:58 Yahshua said unto them, Truly, truly, I say you, before Abraham came to be, I am.
Yahshua appeared to Avraham before the destruction of Sodam and Gomarrah, where many “I” were
seen in the texts- “I will spare”, “I will not destroy”….
Many, many verses that refer to YHWH as salvation; to point out a few-
Exo 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the
salvation/deliverance of YHWH (LORD)
Ps 37:39 But the deliverance/salvation of the righteous from YHWH (LORD)….
Jer 3:23 … truly in YHWH our Elohim the deliverance/salvation of Israel.
Rev 7 :10 Salvation/deliverance to our Elohim Who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.
We are NOT body, soul and spirit! We are body and nephesh/spirit. E.g.
Num 14:24 But my servant Calev, because he has a different SPIRIT with him, and has followed me fully/completely.
Hopefully, this will help filter out some of the muddied, toxic water/s. 😉
This is a wonderful TW to those who will seek to be established in YHWH’s truths. Shalom!
Michael Stanley,
Words!!!
I wrote a post yesterday about how carefully certain writers of the
scriptures chose their words. I’m heartened that you, upon reflection,
apologized for your choice of words. I accept it.
I couldn’t or wouldn’t judge your heart as you indicated. I don’t know
you. Nor does my faith allow me to do so. I could only respond to
the specific words you wrote.
I’ve been a person of faith for many years. The Lord has made Himself
the fabric of my life by His revealing grace and compelling presence.
Along the way I have been blessed to know and be associated with many
of today’s most respected theologians, scholars, authors and, yes, even
evangelists.
But none of them can budge my faith. Their calling may be to assuage or
even challenge my faith’s depth or vitality. That, I’m always open to and
needful of.
I hope your faith is built on the Rock, too. I’ve learned to beware of the
“experts”, either contemporary or historical, who claim to have “knowledge”
or “insight” into what God has built as the foundation of His Creation and
His Kingdom.
Joshua guided and commended Caleb with these words:
“because you have followed the Lord my God.”
Jesus guided and commended His disciples with these words:
“Follow Me.”
God and His Word are what I follow. They are eternal.
“The eternal God is your refuge…” Deut 33:27
Hey Skip,
Thanks so much for clearing this up. I had always interpreted this verse through the lens of Peter’s statement in Acts 4.12 )that there is no other name give under heaven by which we must be saved) as being a statement about the divinity of Jesus. So much for “scripture interprets scripture,” I guess. lol. Thanks for being so faithful with your writings.
I wanted to ask you if you are familiar with the Peshitta Bible and what you think about. I have one. I love it, but would value greatly your opinion.
Blessings,
Steve