Is There a Difference?
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope; 1 Timothy 1:1 NASB
According to the commandment of – In the Greek text, this phrase is the translation of kat’ epitagen. It means a bit more than something God wants. The preposition kata (shortened here because of the next vowel) is “according to.” There is a sense of intensity. Paul is aware that this isn’t optional. It is Paul’s answer to the question, “What does God demand of me?” The preposition introduces us to the greater meaning of the noun, epitagen. This noun is ultimately connected to the verb tasso, “to order, to determine.” Rather than simply being the intention of God, this noun suggests that Paul is an apostle by the command of God. Like Moses, he is chosen, whether he likes it or not. He has been appointed to this role and it is fixed and assigned. There is no turning back. His life is now determined, measured and identified by this command.
How would you like to have this much clarity about your life? Would it clear up the questions, provide direction, anchor your commitment? Perhaps those are really rhetorical questions. We have the tendency to say, “Yes, of course. That’s what I want. An absolutely clear assignment so that I can concentrate all my energy on accomplishing the task.” Apparently that’s the way Yeshua felt too. “For this reason I have come into the world” is a pretty clear assessment of goal clarity. If we are to be like Yeshua (or Paul), why do we have such confusion about what God’s command is for us?
Let me suggest an answer. It’s only a suggestion because you won’t find any text that makes it crystal clear, but it seems to be a part of the conditions for clarity. Perhaps these two men were aware of the specific divine command for their lives because the general revelation of God’s will was already a steadfast commitment for them. In other words, they didn’t struggle with the necessity of Torah. They just did it. They embraced and practiced what God revealed to everyone. There was no confusion about that. As a result, they were ready, willing and able to take on a more personal, specific role. The foundation of obedience was already in place so the particulars could be given. Perhaps our confusion comes because we are wrestling with the general terms of obedience and we aren’t ready for a more refined command.
If this is true, then the resolution is obvious. Keep Torah! Imagine what horizons might open to us if we were as obedient to Torah as Yeshua or Sha’ul. If we had the foundation firmly in place, don’t you think God would direct us toward even greater awareness of His tapestry work? We have a tendency to think in very general terms, as if we are only part of God’s cosmic design. But if we translate “according to the command of God,” now we see how specific to the individual this really is. This leads us to a little reflection about our lives. Are we living according to God’s will in order that we may live according to His command?
Topical Index: kat’ epitagen, according to, command, Torah, 1 Timothy 1:1
It makes a huge difference to walk in Torah ways, than to be led to presume one can walk in some, and reject some. there is NO free will in this instance. Rather, it is what you sow is what you will reap.
Obeying Torah is Sh’ma, to listen, HEAR, internalize, to understand and to respond. It is a Hebraic culture of hearing- He who has an ear to hear, let him hear.
IF the heart is circumcised, Torah will be written on the flesh, not on stone, and then that must bring forth the living-out of all YHWH’s instructions/commandments.
YHWH took Moshe through trials to ascertain his functionality according to His purpose. Moshe passed all the trials, in the way he acted in various situations, and was proven to be righteous/just. He clearly heard what he ought to do, from that still small Voice in his innermost being, from a circumcised heart.
So, he was ready to take on a specific role, a huge role.
There is neither ‘Jew’ nor ‘Gentile’, ONE Torah for all, for the native born and for the stranger who sojourns with you.
Miss Torah, you will miss the beauty of being “in Messiah”, being guided by that still small Voice.
Shalom!
I still struggle with what it means to ‘keep Torah’, especially as one who was not raised Jewish. Skip, can you point me to other entries from AGT where you discuss it more?
Yes, there are 4600 of them. Start by going to the home page of the web site and searching “Torah”
Teresa,
Here are some brief guidelines that you may find helpful – in addition to following anything you learn from TW.
Yahshua was the “living” Torah when He walked the earth on His first coming. He modeled perfectly all the commands found in Torah! This was evident in His trial just before His death. His enemies, His accusers were very familiar with the Law – Torah. Yet, hard as they wanted to, they could not find anything with which convict Him. Nothing!:
“Now the chief priests and the whole council sought testimony against Jesus to put Him to death; but they found none. For many bore false witness against Him, and their witness did not agree.” ((Mk.14:55-56)
So, in modeling our lives after Him, we are surely keeping Torah.
It seems for many of us, one of the first concrete things we do is to come around to prove to ourselves that the seventh day of the week is the Shabbat and we start to steer our lives, arrange our lives, sometimes even change careers to get us to where we are in a position to knock of working from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. Then we can celebrate Shabbat as a day of rest from work and also as a day of worship, ideally with others in the Messianic Torah keeping community. For some, this may be relatively easy as they may already have a job that allows them Sat and Sunday off. For others, it can be a great challenge, especially if one is the main breadwinner or only breadwinner in a family. Nobody should be foolish and “step out on faith”, quit one’s job and then expect God to provide a new one. Anyone with such a challenge, let them take it to the Father and wait for Him to work things out. In parts of the world, like Africa where jobs are scarce, and where half day of work on Saturdays is often required, I have heard of many amazing stories of miracles that have happened to free up people to keep Shabbat.
Keeping Shabbat is a significant spiritual difference maker. It is the first of God’s Appointed Times, His Moadim found in Torah. Shabbat really amounts to being an intimate date with YHVH every 7 days. In Shabbat, we have locked in a day on which we will usually participate in the study and discussion of a Torah portion. So we start to grow in grace and knowledge and start strengthening our relationship with the Creator and fellow Torah keepers in our community. In this 24/7 world we live in, it is easy to forget God in our hustle and bustle. Shabbat is God’s insurance plan that we remember HIM! And so we become blessed in keeping His time Holy. Snd we are keeping Torah in the process!
Next blessing we usually discover are the Festivals: They are Passover and the 7 days of Unleavened Bread celebrated in the spring. The first and last day of Unleavened bread are called High Shabbats, and again we should celebrate them as holy time, if at all possible.
Next up is Shavuot or Pentecost celebrated 7 weeks later, again a holy day.
Then in the Fall, we have 4 additional festivals: Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret (The Eighth Day). Among this grouping, there are 4 High Shabbats that we should strive to keep as holy time.
In the pattern of His Moadim, YHVH reveals much of His plan and destiny for mankind. Yet mainstream Christianity claims that these Moadim are fulfilled at Golgotha – nothing could be further from the truth. That is their loss and our blessing!
So we quickly find out that the weekly Sabbath and the 3 Festival seasons are the chassis upon which we build our Torah lifestyle because in living them, God is giving us a structure that is excellent. No surprise, right! Father knows best!
Beyond this foundation, usually most of us start spiritual “house cleaning”. We quickly dump Christmas and Easter when we discover their pagan origins. (But please be careful how you handle your family, friends, and coworkers – be extra considerate and gracious!) We quicky discover that we should not be eating seafood and pork products – see Leviticus 11. so we clean these unclean products out of our lives – to the betterment of our health. Another blessing!
Finally, because we no longer have the Temple in Jerusalem, and because we no longer have the Theocracy, some Torah Laws do not have application at this time. But after Messiah returns and sets up His worldwide Kingdom, all that will change!
Hope this offers some clarification!
Shalom
You’re right, John. Shabbat is critical. God actually punishes Israel for not keeping it. But even if it were NOT a spiritual rainmaker, we would keep it anyway – because He asks us to. Go read the text. It says that keeping Shabbat is an ETERNAL covenant. Try explaining the word “eternal” to Christians who have been drinking the Pope’s kool-aid since the Pope decided (about 360AD) to move the day to Sunday. And please do not give me the “Lord’s Day” nonsense. What day did He keep? No question about that one, is there? And we are supposed to be like Him? Except in a NON-JEWISH way, of course. 🙂
It is good that it is a journey. As I travel, more and more becomes clear(er).
What really becomes clear is how much garbage I have picked up in this world. It is a very self serving place!
Choose blessing (life) or choose cursing (death). Seems pretty straightforward. Why is it that when someone is getting so many material things and the job is great (the money good) and one pretty much gets what one wants that we hear “God is good?”
Isn’t God good all the time? He is never evil so therefore He must be good. I wonder then how all the material stuff can be blessing if Torah isn’t even in the picture?
If one submits to Torah but does not choose it in their heart-would one be able to hear the still small voice? How can one demand that God answer them and expect to hear anything if there is no Torah?
I think we wrestle with the general terms of Torah because we are more concerned about having what we want. Embracing Torah really does mean a lot of changes and giving things up. God is good in that He provides the strength to do this and we have examples to look at in the pages of scripture. We can be so good at deceiving ourselves.
Thank you for your words Esther. They are simple and encouraging.
Thank you, Dawn McL, so glad you find them simple. The simpler the better, I find we have too much decisions to make, in making the right ones. I get bogged down, having to read ingredients on products when shopping to choose the right stuff-no GMOs, preservatives, flavouring etc. And then to look for organic ones.
I find that pretty stressing.
I am also into youth ministry, so I try not to make things too complex, but easy to understand. Shalom!
Good point, Ester, about having to read all the ingredients to see if it’s fit to eat. Some take the time to do that and rightly reject those items that have 157 ingredients, 97% of which one has trouble even pronouncing.
It’s amazing how easily we accept and put up with so many rules and regulations today to get something that really isn’t all that important, yet we readily balk at taking the same amount of time and energy to dig in and search the meaning of the actually Biblical languages to find meaning. It’s just to hard. Yet we walk through the drudgery of filling out forms to get added benefits, search diligently through the ads for coupons, bargains and deals with no resistance.
We expend so much energy to waste so much time on things that don’t matter a hills of rotten beans, yet we look for the simplest excuse to not read, study and expend exhaustive energy to uncover the gems of His word. I am guilty of this all too often. I want everything the 21st Century easy way. Life is actually very, very hard and challenging. Yet I spend way too much time trying to make everything easy to circumvent so much. In so doing I think I miss so much Yeshua would like to teach me and use to mold me more like Him.
I think we’ve given stress a bum wrap. We don’t need less stress. We need more. Then we just need to uncover His truths and apply them to manage that stress in a way that honors and gives Him visible glory for others to see.
Life IS complex. But Yeshua simplified it saying, “Love Me. Love your Neighbor. Keep My commandments (ahem – um, that is, um…Torah!). Thus, we will do well.
Complexity made simple. Stress made in to glory to Him.
Hey Michael,
We all have known folks who spend more time and effort getting out of work rather than just getting the job done well (the first time I might add)). 🙂
I am a label reader as well and very aware of the importance of what we put in our mouths so I too appreciate Esther’s comments.
I know by reading many of your comments that you put a lot of time into searching out what is truth. I have several books going at once not to mention this blog which i try to read every day. I think I am getting more and more wrapped up in searching out truth.
And yet, life and all of it’s responsibilities goes on.
To whom much has been given, much is expected.
Love this truth…..
Life IS complex. But Yeshua simplified it saying, “Love Me. Love your Neighbor. Keep My commandments (ahem – um, that is, um…Torah!). Thus, we will do well.
How are you doing with your father these days?
Dawn, and Michael C, I appreciate both of your replies to my comments
So good to be like-minded in truth, where unity will prevail. 🙂
Things in life have been made complex when folks claim to be smarter than Elohim; as with the Written Word, which is food for our spiritual well fare, food too has been so corrupted by ‘smart’ mankind going against YHWH’s ways, e.g. not resting the land for the nutrients to be replenished, but adding in chemicals which are so harmful to our health.
SOON, even these days, we have no idea what we are consuming both spiritual and physical.
So much has been altered, and genetically modified. The natural reveals the spiritual.
Pig by-products added, or used in ice creams as gelatin, and in thyroid medication! Shocking? Not really.
That’s the agenda of our adversary, to mix the clean with the unclean. Good to be on guard! 🙂 YHWH’s ways are the best!
Shalom!
Yes, it’s all the difference!
Wasn’t a key purpose of Jesus to personalize the existence of God
by astounding the world that not only could God be a man like us,
but He could also defeat death and live an eternal life that’s the
only real life there is?!
And we, too, can have this life when we finally see it, submit to it,
and accept that “No one comes to the Father except through Me.” JN 14:6
Then there’s LK 9:23-26. Pivotal!!! God’s demands to us personally.
That’s the message of the Bible! It’s the Gospel! The too good to be true
Good News!!!
But so many men/women completely miss it. Even those who are
looking for it.
What’s the blockage?
Jesus!
He’s the stumbling block. Yes, obedience to Torah brings you to
the door. But then there’s still that door.
And Jesus said, “I am the door.” JN 10:9
Jesus became the door by finishing the work of God by devastating
the “reality” of death . . . the “you will surely die” consequence of
sinful disobedience.
God brings it all down to a deep, personal level. What better way
to have a real, intimate relationship with God than to have it
with your fellow man?
That’s Jesus. “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, and with all your strength. And you shall love
your neighbor as yourself.”
Yes, Jesus is the difference!
I have always thought that you must know why you live to know how to live. You must have a clear idea of purpose to be true and passionate about fulfilling that purpose. I would like to know what you think that purpose is Skip. What is the reason for which you (and all of us) have come into this world? I know you have hashed and rehashed the scriptures for ten years so I wont argue the same old same old. But unquestioned obedience does not make sense to me on any level. In our own relationships it has a time and place. It is for children. It is a contrived righteousness until true righteousness (right relations) is arrived at. Some of the sites I have read on keeping torah even describe God as our father and torah as our mother. But “for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” I had house rules for my kids. Some rules were to be permanent, some were just to separate them from the “wrong crowd” for that time. The jews themselves divide torah into rational law, which all can see as right and wrong, and chukkim for which there seems to be no reason other than obedience to God and separation from gentiles (such as the dietary laws). My kids no longer live under my house rules. I don’t expect them to. I didnt change, they did. It is now up to them to judge how to live righteously. To love others. I dont have a list of rules for my wife either. I don’t want unquestioning obedience from her. Here is what I want from her: love me with all your heart! Give me all you’ve got. You decide what that looks like and surprise me with it and I will do the same for you. I would even prefer an imperfect gift from a passionate heart over a perfect gift from a passionless heart. I am not trying to dissuade any one if they are keeping torah as an expression of their love of God. It just seems to be a Martha perspective to me. Martha wasn’t wrong, but she had many things to worry about (613?). Mary had one and hers was the better choice. But I am grateful for all the Martha’s. Somebody has got to make us all some lamb sandwiches.(sorry, sometimes my humor gets the best of me.)
Go read the last two verses of Ecclesiastes. After EVERYTHING is said and done, what is left? Let Qohelet answer.
My wife and I for many years were part of a group that kept many Old Testament commands, not calling them Torah as such, but recognizing that they were God’s commands, not the commands of men. Time passed. This group disintegrated. A significant number of former members now follow a belief system based entirely on grace. There is no further need for law-keeping, according to their reasoning. I understand now that when these people were our associates years ago, the Law was their cornerstone, not Jesus Christ. Having since discovered an appreciation for the Savior, they have thrown out all former practices, so burdened they were by the misinformed and misdirected “keeping” of them. Having swung so far to one side of the road, they roared clear over to the other side.
I think Yeshua put it succinctly. Urging devotion to the “weightier matters of the Law,” He, in the same breath, demanded the other parts of the Law NOT be undone.
Bottom line (or maybe middle of that heavily trafficked road): If we’re going to follow Yeshua/Jesus, and if He kept Torah, what could possibly be our reasons for not doing so as well?
I think it’s easy, given the paradigm through which Christianity has viewed the world for so long, for people to develop an artificial divide between love and Torah-keeping. Maybe John anticipated this: “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” (1 John 5:3) There’s no divide. We can worry about the wrong things. We can worry about the right things. But we don’t have to worry about whether to love OR keep Torah.
Yes, completely artificial. There is NO divide between grace (hen) and Torah (the practice of hesed). I have written a lot about this over the years. The problem is that naive Christians follow Luther who placed an artificial barrier between grace for salvation and Law for works. Such a separation was inconceivable in Jewish thought. Hesed is simply the outworking of hen.
Doesn’t Paul have a lot of military references in his writings? Does not the military operate in the same way that God wants us to? You go to boot camp, you are not an individual you are part of a group – your personal welfare is dependent on that group. You eat together, you sleep together, you train together. Everyone know what the basic rules are, you are to obey without question or there are consequences, sometimes just for you but mostly for the whole group.
Once you get really good at obeying the basic commands, you are given an assignment. It is a personal assignment but over all that personal assignment benefits the whole group. Nothing is ever done for just one person.
Perhaps that is why Paul uses the military as an example so often in his writings?
Great observation, Jill.
Thank you so much for this. If there were any doubts about living according to the Torah in the back of my mind they all disappear today!!! Your pen was used today to free me. Let me explain myself; I have been following a series of lectures by Thamo Naidu, he is a south-african apostle, about the order of God in Creation, the role of men etc., etc., everything very interesting and insightful but when it comes to men, the role of men and that everything was created to serve us I wonder how was this suppose to happen until today, its been there since the beginning, follow God’s Instructions and that is keep the Torah. Thank you.
Benny, Can you supply me with a link to these specific teachings on the role of men, etc. I found his site which had many teachings, but none dealing with these topics-or at least in the title. Thanks, Michael
Following torah.This includes the biblical feasts that are comeing up soon.There is some confusion as to the dates of these feasts.Have the jews messed with the calander?And if so how can we know wich days to keep?
Brian, I agree that the issue is confusing, but also important.(some don’t think so and any day will do, or will follow the Rabbinic calendar even if it might be of questionable origin) There are many variables, but much of the discrepancies seems to be due to the differing opinions on what is the new moon- is it a sliver, in conjunction (not seen) or even a full moon. This sighting is what determines when the new month begins and hence what day a feast-in the middle of the month, for example- begins. Here is a link to an article from a site that goes through many of the problems and arrives at what I believe is the correct Biblical answer, but again everyone thinks their position is the Biblical and correct position. Michael
http://therefinersfire.org/battle-2013.htm
“An absolutely clear assignment so that I can concentrate all my energy on accomplishing the task.”
Hmmm
That’s a pretty good description of my “task” at hand
Thanks to my dog Max it is doable most days
There are all sorts of differing opinions on what “keeping Torah” means, and everyone thinks they have the right answer. There is a difference between keeping Torah according to scripture, and keeping Torah according to the Rabbis. Some say “keeping Torah” is defined as just keeping the Feasts, eating kosher, and observing Shabbat. Is it more than that? If we were really keeping Torah, would we be stoning people, wearing tzitzit, butchering our own meat, and having times of being “unclean”? Where do you decide “this” is keeping Torah, but “that” isn’t necessary to keep Torah? Everyone has different answers. I am aware of the basics of keeping Shabbat, eating kosher & keeping the Feasts. We already do those (to the best of our ability). It would just be nice to know in my heart I was doing all I can or all that was expected to honor and worship the Lord, and be at peace with that. But because there are so many conflicting opinions, it’s hard to know what to believe and it’s very overwhelming and discouraging at times.
Teresa,
I totally understand. There are so many voices and so many opinions. I decided to listen to very few voices and since I have done that I have much greater peace. I am determined to do the best I can and trust God to lead and guide my steps. I’ve found Him to be faithful and trustworthy in keeping me going in the right direction 🙂
One of the things I appreciate most about Skip is that he teaches with NO AGENDA. He presents the information and then it’s up to us to do with it what we will.
Sandy
“It would just be nice to know in my heart I was doing all I can or all that was expected to honor and worship the Lord, and be at peace with that.”
Hi Teresa,
I don’t really know any more than you do, but my sense is that Torah observance would include the 613 commandments and resemble something like the term “Torah Judaism” below
WIKI Torah Judaism is an English term used by a number of Orthodox Jewish groups to describe their Judaism as being based on an adherence to the laws of the Torah’s mitzvot as expounded in Orthodox Halakha. These laws include both the Biblical and rabbinic mitzvot.
In my view, the issue for Christians is that Jesus and Paul were “Torah observant” rabbinical Jews
So, as I understand it, they assume the validity of that “sub-text” when they speak and act
My Jewish friends, most of whom I’ve known since college, have never mentioned their religious beliefs
When I get together with them and other friends socially
So that’s an issue for us fellow travelers in their faith
Teresa, you owe it to yourself to do some more checking up on things.
I imagine I will be kicked off here for what I’m about to say, but no matter.
I hate to see someone new here steamrollered. If there is a ruckus on here, as usual when I don’t agree with the law keepers — still check things out for yourself !!
Here’s one such site you can begin to check and see how it sets on your heart:
http://carm.org/are-christians-under-the-law
You can search many other yourself. Type in “Hebrew Roots Movement”, PRAY the Holy Spirit whom you trust, to lead you, to show you.
If Jesus is Torah, then Torah DIED. Scripture does not say it was resurrected.
Jesus the Son of God, the One and Only Savior was resurrected.
Jesus’ command is what?
John 15:12 “This is my [God the Son’s] commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.”
Notice that Jesus didn’t say, “Keep the Law as I have kept the Law.” Jesus’ command is Love, not Law.
Dead people are no longer under Law.
Romans 6:1-7
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Romans 7:4-6
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
(never let any teaching replace the Living Christ with the written code)
We die to sin, and live in Christ:
Romans 6:8-14
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
YES!
There is no instruction there about observing Mosaic Covenant Law . . . because sin is no longer our master, we are dead to sin in Christ! And if we are dead to sin, then we are no longer under law. And our spirit has been made “alive to God in Christ Jesus”! Jesus didn’t come to make Law breakers into Law keepers, He came to make spiritually dead people into spiritually alive people!
Matthew 5:43-44 On keeping the Torah
Love Your Enemies
43″You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44″But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,…
Cross References
Leviticus 19:18
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Please thank John Piper, Max Lucado, or better yet, Luther, Calvin, Aquinas and Aristotle for your insights into the Torah. But please do not thank Moses, Yeshua, Sha’ul or the rest of the Jewish New Testament authors. They would not agree.
Go read as much of the theological paradigm as you wish. It will all say pretty much the same thing and use the same exegesis.
But then go READ THE HISTORY! Read what the early fathers did to make sure that Christianity survived as a separate religion from Jewish practice. Read E. P. Sanders, John Gager, Brad Young, Pamela Eisenbaum, Abraham Heschel, Todd Bennett. These men are NOT “Hebrew roots” advocates. They are historians. Read Dungan’s Constantine’s Bible. Read McDonald, The Biblical Canon. Read what ACTUALLY happened, not what revisionist church history says.
You will discover this (in a nutshell). Dorothy is absolutely right about Christianity. It deliberately set aside the Torah in order to make itself palatable to Roman citizens. THis is NOT theological. It is self-serving politics. If you want to be Christian, then treat the Tanakh as a Jewish OLD testament. Then adopt the views of Augustine about sin and heaven. Then follow Luther’s anti-semitism. If you want to be Christian, then embrace the doctrines of the early fathers on the replacement of Israel. It’s perfectly OK – if you want to be Christian. Because historically that’s what it means to be Christian. It means to be NOT JEWISH!!! No matter that every one of the disciples walked according to Torah or that Torah was considered vital to the community until the Christian Church under Constantine stamped it out. Ignore the history so you can read the text as you wish.
But just don’t tell me that you are biblical.
Steamrollered?? That is pretty harsh. Law keepers? Sheesh!
I have not seen evidence of anyone on this site steamrolling anyone into believing anything. There are lots of *discussions* and Skip always teaches in such a way that one is free to make up ones’ own mind as to what they believe.
I have seen you insist (almost like a steamroller) on your Christian doctrine and dogma replete with links to the standard Christian sites. I honestly don’t see you as teachable. You are right back to beating the same drum over and over.
When you get called on it, you tone it down a bit but I see you are back in fine form again.
You also are free to believe what you choose to believe and you make a good apologist for the Christian beliefs.
For heavens sake, stop acting like anyone who comes asking questions is about to be eaten by lions!! Put your gospel gun away.
Gospel gun? Lol. Never heard it before, but I like that term. It kills snakes.
“eaten by lions” yes, its true. 1 Peter 5: 8
Dawn, don’t you love anyone enough to at least try to warn them off the wrong path?
I mean supposing you see a way as a wrong and dangerous one? Of course you do.
Then you should understand and not be complaining about what I am doing, –although probably badly, –but at least with all my heart. God went way out of His way to save me.
I am sincere, and I care nothing about making friends and influencing people. I care about the lost, the seeking, and the sheep-wrecks who are badly hurting and floundering. Will I run into the pounding waves to hold their head above water? you bet. Do I care if I am belittled or made fun of? not even a little bit. Its nothing compared to what He suffered to hold my head up and save my life.
Now feel free to have a good laugh, if you must.
Hi Teresa,
I certainly don’t want to add to the “confusion” of opinions and voices that have already been offered, and I sincerely don’t mean that in a critical way. If I may, I would offer only a suggestion or two concerning this ” keeping” of torah.
There truly are “distinctions” in the doing of what we call Torah or the Law, and many of them, such as lyin’, gheatin’, stealin’…..etc. are quite agreeable on by any number of parties while others such as Shabbat, feasts, mixing clothing materials…..etc. are under dispute. Regardless, of which one you are determined to “keep”, ask yourself this; Why?
There are a lot of “good” reasons to keep anyone of these. Because they’re good for society, good for me, the right thing to do, they draw me closer to God…… unfortunately they are all the wrong reasons. The only right reason is that the keeping of ANY law or commandment is out of a response of love for the One who redeemed us. Start there on your journey, determine if you choose not to steal because of the damage done by the act or if you would dishonor the Name of YHWH by doing so. The same applies to Shabbat and the rest of these things. Start in the heart, go searching in God’s word and let Him lead you and convict you and no one else.
There was a conversation some time ago concerning a nesting bird and the young, the “opinions” ranged from “floofy” to “necessary” the question, for me at least, is why. Would I do what was commanded because “?” or because I love Him. In these things, often the only one that can determine that is you and God. The rest of us don’t have enough information. 🙂
“If you love me”……
YHWH bless you and keep you…….
So true, Sandy! I echo your sentiments about Skip!
HalleluYAH to the many truth-seekers who hunger for truth here with presenting their questions, this is very very Hebraic! That means, according to Hebrew speakers and readers, that is their culture.
And that is what is encouraged by the Word as well-SEEK and you shall find.
Seek as in ASK, and you will find answers. If you desire to find treasures of/in The Word, you have to dig deep into the original texts that were BEFORE translations, into the Hebrew language.
Torah means instructions, a ‘roadmap’/compass, guidelines for living, which are the first 5 Books in our Bibles.
You cannot find these guidelines in the “NT”, i.e. regarding what is commanded as acceptable to YHWH Elohim, The Creator, and what is not.
These commandments are YHWH’s, not man’s. Should we not walk in them, we go against YHWH.
Christians do not read Torah, except quoting what suits their agendas in preaching to tickle the ears of the listeners. Woe to these pastors, and anyone who stumble the precious flock of whom Yahshua redeemed with His gruesome death, Matt 18 :7, better for them to be tied to a millstone around their necks and be drowned. These is serious!
Christians are not encouraged to read from the beginning of their Bibles as their pastors and teachers, indoctrinated in Roman-Greek seminaries simply do NOT have the insights, nor diligence to seek understanding of what is written in those first 5 Books, which are the very foundations of our walk /faith/trust/belief.
They then push their lack to Shaul’s writings! WHY start with man’s writings, WHY not start with what is inspired from the beginning?
When 2 Timothy 3:16, was written, the ONLY inspired Word was the “OT”/Tanakh. “NT” was not written/compiled yet.
Acts 15 :21 the 5 books of Moshe, known as the Torah to the ‘Jews’, were read every shabbath in the congregations.
Are theses 5 Books of Moshe/Torah being read in the Christian congregations today? BIG question.
IF they are read, with seeking hearts, the Ruach/YHWH’s Spirit will guide them into ALL truths, as Christians claim they have the “holy Spirit”, and not part which is strictly from the “NT”. In that case, Christians will need only to have their “NT” as Bible, and disregard the “OT”. A lighter Book to carry around. They should not be quoting from Psalms. Proverbs, Eccl, and the Prophets, as these are OLD too.
First things we read in the Torah are what YHWH said- to Adam and Chawah, to Cain, to Noach, to Avraham, to Yaccov/Jacob, and so on…. The Torah consists of the spoken Words of YHWH Elohim.
Reading the Torah and having some knowledge of what is written in them, when we glean from the many voices out there, we will be able to discern what is truth and what is error.
Anyhow, we are on a learning journey, some truths we may not grasp today, we will someday, if we truly hunger for it. ABBA will fill that hunger! 🙂
Shalom!
Well, I suppose, then, that God’s word CAN be changed and is only correct SOME of the time.
Why else would some one want to change Exodus 31:16 to be read and understood as “Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, (actually, according to some meaning – until Messiah comes, then we will observe it on the first day instead of the seventh), as a covenant forever (well, at least until changed to the first day when Messiah comes so as to keep in line with the Greeks who despise the Sabbath and want to run from it as far as they can.)
It’s hard to see that in Hebrew but it is clear as mud in English.
Apparently, the Hebrew word עוֹלָם doesn’t really translate ages/eternal/perpetual, as an ongoing covenant that keeps on continually continuing, but the warped translation in English actually means ‘until Messiah comes and is changed it to the first day.’
And I can also see how so very easily Romans 11 can, in English, just totally obliterate four thousand years of Hebrew understanding to line up perfectly with Constantine’s flavor of Christianity, a form that constantly ran from, avoided, and protested against anything to do with historic early messianic followers of the Way. Constantine did this very well; get rid of Sabbath-check; get rid of dietary instructions-check; negate circumcision-check. Null and void anything that resembled those ‘filthy’ Jews-check. What do you have? Fourth Century ‘Christianity.’ Wonderful. Thus begins the charade. It continues even today.
It’s easy to want it all to be easy to figure out. And it is once you strip all the crud that has accumulated around the truth. It’s easy to just wish it would all just fall out of the sky all simple and convenient. But, it is actually a daunting task to uncover those simple truths when they have been reformatted, changed, morphed, abridged, skewed, warped and masked by so many tilted explanations. It IS hard work to decipher all the mixed up translations and biased explanations. Unfortunately, it takes time, work, sleuthing and discovery to have the sound message uncovered from the years of debauchery that has covered, costumed and concealed the real matter of facts. Proverbs 25:2 seems to allude to it being a matter to expend real effort to understand the things of God as He has hidden them somewhat in order to prompt us to look for them diligently.
The sign posts have been moved on us and we’ve been wandering around the dessert seeing mirages of what we thought was being said. Who moved those signs on us? It’s tough to figure that out! But it’s doable if we want to take the time to search these matters out. We have the rest of our lives to do just that. Man, I’m already behind. I’d better pick up the pace! So many truth nuggets to dig up, polish and invest in.
Yeshua is still ruling. He is still Messiah. He is still in control. We’ve just been looking through screwed up glass muddied by those that just didn’t paint the correct picture. People are starting to challenge those long accepted creeds and the faux punditry is protesting much.
The glass has been receiving a cleaning for the past few decades. Slowly. No truths have been altered, changed, or modified. They have simply started to be revealed without all the mud and yuk dripping from them.
People are being led out of Egypt. Some just don’t want to give up making mud bricks. They want the security of the boxed life. God’s sacred word cannot be in Hebrew, they say, it must be understood as written only in English.
But, we can wander around the dessert for, say, another forty years until we can all see together that it’s OK to clean off this mud and yuk for a better look. We’ll walk with all who want to join the search for truth. No one person has it all figured out. We need the body to walk hand in hand with. Others have walked patiently with us. We will do the same. But we all need to expend some energy in order to contribute as fully and as best we can. Simply repeating what others, you know, the “they said” people, isn’t good enough any more. We are responsible for what we ourselves do. We must assume responsibility to learn how to search and ponder truth.
Man, it is such a challenge. Daily.
But, man-o-man is it awesome!
Another epistle…sorry. Diarrhea of the mouth again!
THE GOSPEL TRUTH
~ Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations..~
If you are Jewish by (first) birth- you are then “of Israel”- am I correct? Who is a Jew? Christ our Savior was (or rather IS). Very much so according to his genealogy found in the gospel according to Matthew chapter one.
Who keeps the Sabbath? The Jewish people – God’s chosen people – the people of the nation Israel.
And yes, God did give unto them (delivered by a man-Moses) -the ten “words” or commandments- the Torah, God’s “instructions” for life. There is nothing (at all) wrong with these written words- they were written (the first time) by God Himself- the second by a man- Moses. Moses was not the “Author”, but he was the scribe.
Now it is a “big dot deal” when God gives His instructions. He gave these simple instructions unto Adam and Eve: “don’t eat the fruit of that tree.” Yes.. GOD DID SAY- “don’t..” but (the rest is our history) Adam and Eve both did eat of the forbidden fruit and the consequence? So long Paradise.
God (Himself) made both Adam and Eve a covering of skins. Adam and Eve tried the “fig leaf” thing, but it just wasn’t “sufficient”- God (Himself) clothed and covered their “nakedness” and somewhere in Paradise, because of God’s provision of an atoning sacrifice, there lay a dead, skinned and bloody animal.
~Sanctify them by the truth; Your Word is truth ~ (John 17.17) Say… whose Word is this -anyway?
Who said, “don’t eat the (forbidden) fruit?” It, my friends, was the simple instructions of Elohim. Adam, Eve, -don’t do that! But they did! What then, shall we say to these things? Adam..-Eve.. what were you thinking? Why did you allow the Serpent to deceive you? Why did you not remember the clear, concise- simple words of our LORD, – “don’t eat that?” Why, Adam? Why, Eve? Did not God say clearly- concisely- *don’t?*
And now we “fast-forward” to ten words, written on tablets of stone. (Yes, it is written) “Thou shalt”- (do this) AND “thou shalt NOT”- (don’t do this). ~ If you do these things (or not do these things) -you shall live. Obey and live- disobey and die. Your (free) choice. It’s entirely up to you. Obedience equals life. Disobey and die. (Go ask Adam!)
This is the decided difference between the Old Covenant and the New(er). The O.T. is “do” and the N.T. is “done.” Finished, Full. Final. Complete. (SomeOne is now seated, waiting for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet!)
A question for all good people who read these words: Which of you (us) has “kept” in totality- every “jot and tittle”-of the Law? Just these ten and no more.- (we will for now, disregard the 613!) Do you (or I) love the LORD your Elohim with ALL your heart-soul-mind-and strength? (yes, Hebrew “dashes,”-not Greek commas!). This is the first and “greatest” commandment- AND (AND) the second is like unto it.. you SHALL love your neighbor as yourself.” And..?? Have we “kept” these “perfectly?” Have we ever (one is all it takes..) ever NOT loved Him? Have any of us “mere mortals” ever lived (according to God’s own clear instructions) a “perfect” life? How many of us have never “transgressed the Law?” – “don’t do that!”- ,sins of commission, or have not “do this”- ,- sins of omission? Oh, the “things” I’ve done!-which were not at all pleasing unto my God!- and in addition.. (but wait!- there’s more!)- the “things” I’ve NOT done!- I have not (always) loved the LORD my Elohim with ALL my heart-soul-mind and strength and I have NOT (always) loved my neighbor (the one nearest me) as I have loved myself- AND I have NOT (for that matter) always loved myself either! People.. this man is a mess! I (too) am a sinner! ~ Confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed! ~ (Do you see this as a “command” of God?) Have you (or I) done this? If not.. this (too) is sin, for aren’t these are His clear instructions also?
What does God’s (perfect,holy) Law (Torah) do? It establishes beyond any shadow of doubt- ALL (ALL) have sinned.. “BOTH” Jew and Gentile.. there is not one of us who does not need a Savior. ~ that the whole world may become guilty before God! ~ The Law was (and remains!) our “Schoolmaster” to lead us to Christ. Why? ~ without Him, – we can do nothing! ~ Ahh.. but with God,- all things are possible!! ~
There is nothing (absolutely nothing) at all “wrong” with Torah obedience! (but..) lol! – (always something isn’t there?). Salvation/deliverance/redemption for (both) Jew and Gentile- male AND female is by and through the precious, holy, sinless blood of our crucified, buried and resurrected LORD Jesus,- the sinless-spotless-saving-sanctifying-satisfying Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world ~
Can we ever praise Him “enough?” – no.
Who did Christ die for? Sinners. Who (then) has sinned? All. All of us have sinned. ~ there is none righteous (rightly-related), no, -not one! ~
Are there any “sinless” perfect people among us? I’m waiting to hear from any man, any woman -Jew or Gentile to announce as He did, ~ which of you convinces Me of sin? ~
Adam? Sinner. Eve? Sinner. Moses was (not a doubt) a mighty man. Sinner. David? Sinner. -Shall we (now) continue in sin that grace may abound? (the answer?)- God forbid! Whether O.T. “sinners” or N.T. “sinners”- (just the facts m’am..) “ALL have sinned -“weighed in the balances and found wanting..”
What then ( I won’t leave you hanging!..) What then is the Solution for Sin? The LAW has clearly established the fact of sin, but what shall we do now?- Sirs.. what must I “DO” to be “saved?”
Good News!! Good news for ALL!! Good news for sinners only. There is ONE who is Righteous. There is ONE among us who has lived a perfectly Torah-obedient life! There is a Redeemer in Israel. There is ONE who IS perfect. Sinless in every respect. Only ONE who has never-ever sinned or transgressed God’s holy Law! ~ He went about doing (only) good!
~ Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ- and “you” shall be saved! ~
THE GOSPEL TRUTH
~ This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners…~ (1 Timothy 1:15) Do you “qualify?”
~For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
~ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus ~ 1 Timothy 2:5
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other Name under heaven given among men, whereby we (all-both Jew and Gentile) must be saved. (Acts 4:12)
…rescuing you from the Jewish people AND from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to Light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me…
~ behold, the Lamb.. ~ His Name? King of kings. LORD of lords. The Word of God.
Carl,
I’ve read this from you several, no, many times in this blog. Pretty much the same recitation of verses and story. ? And what is your point? I know the story. I’ve read the story. I’ve heard the story. Many, many times. What, beyond the story, are you trying to tell me? (Assuming you are trying to emphasis something to me.) As you put this under one of my responses, I am assuming you are answering something in my response? If so, I’m not quite sure what, in particular.
Carl, I don’t mean to be negative, but most things you contribute, it seems, can be summarized recalling the Christmas or Easter cantata’s I’ve watched through out the years in many different churches. I mean…I get the story. I get the narrative. I get the outline of what happened. It’s the understanding of it, outside the fundamental, evangelical paradigm that I’m after and intent on understanding. The continual repetition of a sunday school edition of the gospel is just superficial at this point. I can get most of this stuff in the ‘What We Believe’ section of any church web site.
I know, according to some, I’ll be going to ‘hell’ if I challenge or counter traditional renditions of what some think is being said in the gospel, but I’m willing to stand in that door way and see if what’s on the other side is really so.
What, besides the approved versions of the Bible stories can you send my way? I’ve pretty much heard most of them. They roll of my back like water on a duck’s back. I want to understand what’s under the feathers, why the water is rolling off. “Because you or anyone else ‘says so,’ just isn’t good enough.
I want and strive to keep his instructions thus proving I do, indeed, love him. Some instructions are not crystal clear at times to me. I seek clarification and simple understanding. I don’t necessarily need to know why God wants me to do something, I just want to know what that actually is for me to do.
I can simply read the beginning chapters of Genesis, as you present so many verses and stories, and end up with more questions than before I read it. Well, let’s do the Carl method, just recite it, and that should be enough. After all, it IS God’s word, right?
Let’s see…as a member of adam, the human race, I, like Adam, the first dude, am called, am I not, to be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth, subdue it and have dominion over it, correct. Well, I’ve read it. That should do it! Plain and simple. It’s been preached, verbalized to me and it will not return to God void. I now have it. That’s all that is needed, correct. If not, then I’ll just repeat it over and over and over again, and that should do it for Michael C. Just keep saying it enough times and he’ll eventually get it.
But what exactly is ‘being fruitful?’ Planting an apple tree? A strawberry bush? Any other fruit tree? After all, Adam and Havah were in a garden, right? Garden equals planting.
What constitutes multiplying? Just sex? Jethro Bodine’s ‘gazinta’s” Two gazinta six three times? Five gazinta fifteen three times? Does it mean taking one stick, breaking in to two, thus multiplying?
Replenish the earth, what does that mean? Do I do it as in the image of God by somehow, figuring out how to produce more lava, pressurizing it enough to shoot out of the top of a mountain so that it spreads out enough to replenish the ground, eventually the soil and thus providing a foundation for things to grow?
Subduing the earth. Now what is that? Throwing it down and handcuffing it’s arms behind it’s back, metaphorically speaking?
On and on. Simply repeating the Genesis story just ain’t gonna get me any clarity, is it? Maybe I just don’t have enough faith. Cognitive strength to generate enough guts and will power to simple cause understanding to just happen. Is that it? Just tell the story to me one more time, in English, and that ought to do it.
Never mind what I hear in English is the interpretation and understanding of someone else or group of people that read the original texts in Hebrew/Greek and plastered their interpretation on it limited to these select English words. Never mind that the Hebrew words and letters themselves contain rich and deep meaning that would necessitate paragraphs and paragraphs of English words to adequately render the real and full meaning. Never mind the intricately connected letters, words, and structure of the Hebrew that yields depth of meaning that isn’t even scratched on the surface in English, even if it is repeated over and over and over again. Genesis 1:1 just isn’t, by any stretch of the imagination only “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” There is tons more to it than that one little sentence no matter how many times I repeat it in English.
So, again, what was your point to me? I really didn’t get it.
Was it like my poor reason, I didn’t get enough sleep, was tired and had no business typing anything because I had trouble expressing anything worth while in that particular response? If so, we are in the same boat
Shalom
Hi Michael,
Maybe I’m not fully getting your drift. Forgive me if I’m in error.
Do I understand that you believe some parts of the Bible and have issues
with other sections? You seem to indicate the “newer” sections may not be
as trustworthy as the “older”. At least that’s the impression of your comments.
I totally believe the whole Bible is ONE big message from God to each of us.
The O.T. is all about knowing and understanding Who God is and preparing
for the promised Messiah. Nothing has changed.
The N.T. is all about knowing and understanding Who God is and receiving
the promised Messiah. Nothing has changed.
Both Old and New contain God’s loving knowledge, wisdom and grace.
Both are essentially the same message . . . in different times and places.
In Rev 22:18-21 the author states a clear caution. He also testifies to
the truth found throughout the whole book.
It’s ONE Book about ONE God. All of it!!!
Is that your understanding?
Rich, brother, I use this space to deliver this below to you.
And thank you for sharing about the day the Savior caught up with you (in your living room)
Me, too. Finally tackled me in my living room. Lol.
Praise God! What a wonderful Savior!
I hope your marriage was restored.
_________________________________________________________
Hebrew Roots Movement – Messin’ With the Word
Language. Powerful stuff. If you can control the language, define the terms, manipulate the paradigm of a thing – you exercise great power. [par·a·digm – A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.]
An Incorrect Paradigm
As this illustration demonstrates, having an incorrect paradigm can change the picture of a thing quite a lot! Is it any wonder that those in the Hebrew Roots Movement have claimed the area of language as their primary pillar of “expertise” as they purpose to lure Christians away from the canon of Scripture to a more “enlightened” way of reading/interpreting Scripture and discerning doctrine?
It’s a seductive way to change a Christian’s paradigm, and ends up in a set of beliefs and practices that is not supported by Scripture. It turns Christianity as inside out as the above illustration turns the concept of the solar system inside out. The picture is recognizable, but is totally false and unworkable when measured by reality.
I’m no linguist, but I’m no dim bulb, either, and it’s been amazing, disturbing, and somewhat amusing to discover how those in the HRM have determined to re-define terms and doctrines as well as pseudo re-translate the New Testament.
(I can’t say this better than JGIG, and I give Wendy @ Jgig the credit)
Well, this is worth a comment.
Paradigms are not “wrong” or “right.” That is an ethical/truth value assessment. Paradigms simply ARE. You have one. I have one. Everyone sees the world through his or her own lens. Christian evaluate the world (and Scripture) on the basis of a collected paradigm handed down through the centuries by the fathers of the faith (and I do not mean Moses, Joshua or Jesus). ANY historical reading of the works of these men will show you that they employed a paradigm in order to CHANGE the view of Scripture as it was commonly understood by the Jewish believer. In other words, they used their paradigm to re-invent the meaning of the text. They did this for a reason. That reason was to demonstrate a faith that was NOT JEWISH. This is a matter of historical record, not biblical exegesis. This foundation was then used to systematically re-invent the meaning of the texts, the words and the history so that it supported the paradigm. Read Thomas Kuhn if you want to see how this works in SCIENCE. There is no neutral view of this stuff. We are all affected by prior assumptions.
I do not consider myself a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement, but I understand the approach. It begins by recognizing that the early fathers of the Church altered the contemporary paradigm for political and social reasons. Theology was built on this new foundation. So HRM people are trying to get back to what the community was like BEFORE Origin, Tertullian, Marcion and the rest of the boys. However, in my limited experience, some HRM groups are really just as Christian in their paradigm as the Christians they left behind. They just have a Hebrew vocabulary but they still THINK in categories that came from Christianity after the 2nd Century.
What does this mean? It means that a claim that HRM distorts the “true” Scripture is ridiculous. The “true” Scripture is what was understood by the AUTHOR and in every case we DO NOT have access to the AUTHOR’s mind. We have only the best scholarship and work that we can find to determine what those words meant to people who lived when he spoke or wrote them. Don’t tell me that all we need is the Holy Spirit. We’ve been down that road before. What this means is that Christianity, as a paradigmatic religion, began about 165AD and it has systematically and deliberately changed its history and its interpretation of the biblical material TO FIT ITS PARADIGM – which, by the way, did NOT come from the text. But Modern Rabbinic Judaism is in the same boat. It altered the text and history according to the Pharisaic paradigm between 200 AD and 400 AD. That’s why Judaism today does NOT look like the way of faith in the first century.
So, here’s the result and the problem. The result: Choose your poison. No one is paradigm free, so you better look for reason to believe what you do that ARE NOT PARADIGM DEPENDENT. They exist. Listen to my lectures on epistemology. If you want to be Christian, be Christian, but at least be honest about how you got there and what the history tells us about your origins. If you want to be Jewish, the same. HRM – the same.
The Problem: If you wan the TRUTH, be prepared to rigorously attack paradigm-dependent thinking. At this point, I am just trying to understand WHAT THE TEXT SAYS. That’s all I can handle right now.
“At this point, I am just trying to understand WHAT THE TEXT SAYS.”
Ditto!
Thank you, Skip! This was definitely worth a comment and I appreciate you answer.
If you want to be Christian, be Christian, but at least be honest about how you got there and what the history tells us about your origins. If you want to be Jewish, the same. HRM – the same.
The important word here is “honest” and that can be difficult.
I greatly appreciate the depth of this answer myself. Thanks!
I am in the same boat of trying to understand the TEXT myself. What a journey with such interesting folks.
Safe travels to you.
Hi Rich,
Thanks for your question regarding my words above. Honestly, I think what I thought didn’t exactly come out how I wanted it to. I’ve been trying to go to bed earlier in order to get up earlier. That night I should have gone to bed rather than attempt to explain anything. I was tired.
I know what I wanted to say but it got jumbled in the writing of it. My bad. Yes, my ‘drift’ was off. For that, please forgive me.
The main thrust was an attempt to say what has been said in here endlessly, it seems. Some in here have picked paradigm and refuse to see it as such and then simply dig a mote around it and defend it to the death of for no other reason than that is the way it’s always been. Never mind the original texts in the original languages, never mind the history, never mind the culture, world views and thinking practices of the original author and audience. That method, as mentioned numerous times, simply produces whatever ideas and dogmas desired.
Regarding the ‘one’ book question you asked, yes, I give weight to the continuity from the Tanakh through the Gospels, apostolic writings and the apocalyptic writings. However, the O.T. and N.T. designations hinder the true nature of these writing, in my opinion, and again this is the coatings of the paradigmatic influences that have molded our understanding for so long.
Many in here, myself included, have chosen to shed their mindsets from this paradigm in favor of other paradigm possibilities that allow for and take in to consideration the history, culture, Hebraic world views that were evident in the times of Yeshua and the apostles.
Skip, of course, says things far better, more succinctly, and more clearly than I can. And I find myself seeing things in agreement with him and others pursuing the same clarity from a linguistic approach. What else do we have to work with to understand than the words we read in Scripture. We simply can’t just put any many we happen to like on them. That is what ‘Christianity’ has done for almost two millennia now. I’m beginning to see that. I’m beginning to strip all that away. What lies beneath is fascinating, freeing and liberating over the previous paradigm of recent evangelical societies I’ve identified with.
Previously, I was afraid, so to speak, to go against any of it or challenge it. I was thrashed about from those that ‘knew with authority,’ those who were the ‘leaders and dogma setting rulers’ of evangelicalism.
Now I see what they are doing and have done for hundreds of years. They’ve dwelled in a paradigm that is largely false and misguided. I have since distanced myself from that teaching as I just don’t see it holding water anymore.
Skip response to Dorothy below says it much better than I. I agree with him strongly. I’m reading more and more that gives credence to what Skip says. The linguistic aspect is very important. I mean you responded to my ill conceived words and sought clarification. Words mean things. They need explanation many times. You and I are hear, live, together and we have difficulty in communication at times. (This time certainly my error!) Reading documents authored hundreds and thousands of years ago is exponentially challenging.
“I am no linguist” isn’t a good excuse. I see a need for all of us to begin learning how to be a linguist, after all we all profess to believe His WORD. You have to be a linguist to understand words. The question is am I going to be a diligent linguist doing as much as I can to comprehend or am I going to be a lazy linguist and solely rely on whatever meaning other people put on God’s Word.
The paradigm I have been coming out of demanded I swallow their paradigm exclusively or go to hell, basically.
Hope that made a little more sense. I’m sorry for my ill conceived response previously. I shall endeavor to do better.
Shalom
Clarification: I’m addressing Michael C.
Skip,
You’ve always been clear . . . and honest. So much appreciated, especially your most
recent comment above.
Oh my do I agree with Rich! I so appreciate the way you are able to cut through the confusion and bring clarity. I actually feel myself relaxing when you “speak.” I am in a situation where there are lots of people studying, but we are all still mixed up in the doctrines etc. and it gets frustrating at times. Thanks!
I love the search for truth that is the desire of this community. I love that while Skip is the originator of this community, he does not demand that we “shut up and believe” whatever he puts out there and he encourages input from all.
The pursuit of Jesus/Yeshua is paramount. Yeshua told us in John 5:46 “for he (Moses) wrote of me (Yeshua). It is so clear here, although I missed in my previous 20+ yrs. in christianity, that if we want to know him and walk like him, we must follow Torah. If we want to follow him we must follow Torah. “If you love me, keep my commandments” John 14:15.
Onward with our training in linguistics and Torah!