Timing, Not Substance
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. Ephesians 1:7 NASB
Through His blood – When did we receive redemption through the blood of Yeshua? There are several perfectly correct answers. The first answer is entirely personal. You were redeemed at the personal level when you experienced the joy of recognizing that your sins were forgiven. That timing will be slightly different for every single human being who came to the Lord repentant. The second answer is general. God provided the means for your experience of forgiveness through the blood of Yeshua at a time He designated regardless of your awareness of that offer. Your personal participation in His offer of grace depends on a prior arrangement. Obvious, and true. Now the question becomes, “When did God make this arrangement?” Most Christians answer this second question according to the teaching of the church. The offer of forgiveness was arranged at the time of the death of Yeshua on the cross.
But just for the moment, let’s consider this answer. Was the offer of grace made available at the moment Yeshua died? If that’s true, then what is the purpose of the resurrection? Why do we need a resurrected Christ if His mission was accomplished at death? Would you revise your answer slightly and suggest that the resurrection was the seal of the atonement? But if that’s true, then why does the Church teach that our sins were forgiven on the cross? And then there’s the further complication. If God’s arrangement for the offer of forgiveness occurs on the cross, then what about all those devoted followers of YHWH who lived before the crucifixion? How were their sins forgiven? Retroactively? Or were their sins somehow held in heavenly limbo until the crucifixion? The standard replacement theology answer is that prior to the cross salvation was thought to be an effort of “works.” After the cross, we now realize that it is based on grace. But this standard answer is not only woefully misconstrued on biblical grounds, it also misrepresents the lives and theology of devoted followers of YHWH from Abraham to John the Baptist. They all knew it was grace. It was always grace. They weren’t waiting for the cross to find forgiveness because they already experienced forgiveness directly from God. In addition to all this confusion, we have the prophets; prophets who reveal from God that what is required is to love mercy, do justice and follow Torah. No mention of waiting for the Messiah to forgive you. Strange, don’t you think, especially if forgiveness is the single greatest issue man will ever face!
Does this verse from Paul’s letter teach us that forgiveness occurs on the cross? I don’t see how it can unless we have already concluded that this is what it says in spite of the fact that the cross isn’t mentioned. What is says is that we are forgiven through the blood of Yeshua according to God’s grace. But it says nothing about how or when that provision was made. For that we have to look somewhere else. I’m afraid that nearly all of Paul’s declarations about redemption and atonement have the same ambiguity. The substance is clear. The timing isn’t.
Topical Index: cross, grace, forgiveness, blood, Ephesians 1:7
For the last two years I have been thinking,that we have to believe that messiah came 2000 years ago to die for our sins.The people living during that time had to believe he was there.The people living before that time had to believe that he would come.It seems to me I have missed the point.People in all these time frames that were living torah were on course to doing exactly what they were supposed to do,salvation was always there just like grace was already there in the garden.
I am not so concern about timing I am more concern about substance to understand the timing I think if we get to understand what Paul meant when he said through the blood of Yeshua we will be able to understand it all. Isn’t blood a picture of life so I understand that the life of Yeshua is what save us and how did He lived? I understand according to Torah so the timing is there when you start to life by His word and His word is from the beginning .
Consider this “timing” analogy.
Say, I write a play.
The play is in written form, a manuscript.
It has existence.
It can be read and understood.
Then, at a later time, it is “performed”.
The cast of characters acts it out.
Thus, the “timing” question.
When is the play?
When it’s written?
Or when it’s performed?
Or . . . both?
Hi Skip,
Your topics today and yesterday are fascinating. I missed commenting on freewill but I want to go back today and post a few comments I did not see anyone else make.
Regarding the timing and application of the available grace from Yahshua’s Sacrifice, it seems to me that we must again look for the answer at the pattern of the timeline of salvation that YHVH reveals in His Festivals described in Torah. Yahshua was very clearly the Wave Sheaf Offering. Now we all know that God has His protocols. And in this instance, Yahshua’s sacrifice, best I can tell, did not have final significance until He ascended to heaven and had His Great and Perfect Sacrifice accepted by the Father. Of course, it was a given that His Sacrifice would be accepted, but the Father shows us in His Word that all these salvific moments occur on time, at His chosen time, every time! So Yahshua knew that He had to observe the Father’s protocol and ascend to be accepted by the Father with the massive angelic community in heaven as a witness. What a scene that must have been. What a Hallelujah they all must have shouted! I hope He will give us all a replay sometime….
So, it seems to me that the application of Yahshua’s Grace has not been yet applied to humanity at all in a completed sense. Romans 8 shows clearly that we apply His Grace to our lives as we ask in faith for forgiveness for our sins, even daily, as we mess up. But there is no finality to that. The true climax will most likely occur on Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets) when Yahshua returns to earth as King of Kings next time, and lays claim to His First Fruit called out ones and the Kingdom He qualified to rule. Because God is consistent on His Patterns, I have every reason to believe that the First Fruits will follow the pattern of Yahshua, and also be taken up to heaven to also be presented to the Father for acceptance into the family of God. Symbolically, this might all occur on Yom Kippur or during those 10 days of Awe between the two Festivals. But we have no specific Scriptural reference for that – its just a hunch on my part based on the Scriptural patterns!
This is where I take great issue with those who teach that the saints go to Heaven upon their death. That notion does not jive with the Scriptures at all (See John 3:13 et al). God’s faithful and true servants – Abel, Noah, Moses, the Patriarchs, the Prophets, the Apostles etc etc all lie “asleep” awaiting their resurrection and redemption at the sound of the trumpet of God. They will be joined by those first fruits who are alive at that mind boggling moment in human history. That is what Paul clearly teaches in 1Corinthians 15, with a secondary witness in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 20.
Until the precious Blood of the Lamb is applied to ALL first fruits at moment of our conversion to spirit essence (Oh to be done with this weary body of flesh!), I do not truly see how Yahshua’s sacrifice has ultimate application?
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.” (Rev.22:14)
Hi John,
Amein to the pattern and significance of YHWH’s Feasts Days! That’s a beautiful aspect!
HIS Feast Days are something to look forward to! So much rejoicing! HalleluYAH!
Sukkot is around the corner too.
Shalom to you.
I like youre analogy Rich.
Salvation was always thru Christ.
Only way now, only way then, only way EVER — the same yesterday today and forever.
We ourselves can find various pieces of information about the way of salvation from Moses to Malachi.
These pieces must be searched for, because the sweep of the OT writers seems historical.
It almost seems the writers assume that the readers already know
the way of salvation through verbal revelation given by the prophets.
Consider what Peter says about the prophets’ testimony concerning Christ, “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His Name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).
Peter refers to the prophets who wrote about Christ. But he must also have in mind that these and other prophets said much about Him verbally that is not recorded in the OT.
The New Test. sheds more light.
We know of Enoch in Genesis, but we would not know that he prophesied about Christ unless Jude told us.
And we would not know that Moses “considered the reproach of Christ” unless the writer of Hebrews told us.
We would not know that Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’ day unless John told us.
People could have known how to be saved from the OT.
There may be only one passage in the OT that all by itself explains the way of salvation:
Job 19:25-26.
But the necessary pieces of information can also be found in various scattered passages.
In fact, God expected the rabbis to find these pieces, put them together, and verbally explain what they found to others.
How can I know this? Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about the gospel, He said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not know these things?” (John 3:10).
The rabbis got busy NOT doing the will of God, but making stuff up, and putting yokes on people God never intended.
Jesus rebuke them sternly, too, — the Pharisees and Scribes
~ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us *in Him* before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. *In him* we have redemption through His blood, (the blood of the Lamb) the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things *in Him*, things in Heaven and things on Earth ~
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,e to the praise of his glory.
In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. *In Him* you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed *in Him*, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.
~ For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His great might that He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things under His feet and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all ~
Amen!
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
Heb. 10:35
Skip, what about this possibility?–God could have forgiven sins even before the penalty was paid, knowing that the penalty WOULD be paid.
Wow, I stopped short there in my post on Planned in Advance, I didn’t want to go there.
TW’s word brought forth so much clarity on that! Thank you, Skip.
Forgiveness, definitely was from the very beginning in Gan Eden, when YHWH slaughtered the lambs for a covering/s for Adam and Chawah.
That was the very first offering/sacrifice for transgression of YHWH’s command, for atonement/forgiveness.
As John Walsh’s comment above, YHWH has a pattern and He commanded Moshe to follow that pattern in building everything for the Tabernacle as HE specified, with wisdom and skill given to certain folks to comply.
YHWH is an Elohim of order. HE is the ONE Who saves. Salvation/deliverance belongs to HIM.
Exo 14: !3 And Moses said to the people, do not be afraid, stand still, and see the deliverance/salvation of YHWH/LORD.
Yahshua is the pattern Son we are to follow-keeping all of YHWH’s Torah, to the very end in laying down His life complying to ABBA’s will.
HE is the Eternal One, above and beyond time and space, for there never was a time when He did not exist, so YHWH is not subject to changes of time and place –
Mal 3:6 For I AM YHWH, I change not;
Deut 33:29 Blessed are you, O Israel! Who is like you? A people saved by YHWH, the shield of your help, and HE who is the sword of your excellency.