Your Wrath Comforts Me

I am the man who has seen affliction because of the rod of His wrath.  He has driven me and made me walk in darkness and not in light.  Lamentations 3:1-2  NASB

I am the man – Jeremiah was a righteous man.  He was obedient to YHWH’s will.  He accepted the consequences of his divine assignment.  He should have been exonerated.  But look what he says of himself.  “I am the man.”  In Hebrew the word is haggeber, the word for a young, strong man and the definite article.  Jeremiah is not universalizing this affliction.  It is quite specifically his.  “I am the man.”

What has happened to this righteous man?  He is afflicted by God’s rod of wrath.  He is driven into darkness.  He is restrained from the light.  What!?  Can God be so cruel to even the righteous, to those whom He calls to fulfill His will?  The answer is found in a reflection on why Jeremiah is experiencing the harsh hand of God.  The answer is this:  Jeremiah is completely identifying with his people.  He is suffering their fate.  He is taking on their burden.  He is God among them, agonizing with them, not merely for them.  “I am the man” is a statement of solidarity with those whom God is judging.  Jeremiah’s righteousness is not in question here.  What this statement reveals is Jeremiah’s shattered heart.

Abraham Heschel’s work on the prophets reveals the startling insight that the prophets are men chosen to feel as God feels.  They enter into empathetic symbiosis with YHWH and experience His ruptured heart over the disobedience of His children.  They carry the weight of the divine on their shoulders.  But as if that were not enough, they also bear the weight of disobedience.  Not their disobedience but the terror and heartache of the disobedience of those whom they are trying to reach.  The prophets are men with twice broken hearts.  No wonder the weight crushes them.

Few of us are prophets in this double sense.  First, we rarely enter into the heart of God in a way that allows us to feel His pain.  I suppose that is a good thing since the agony would be in cosmic proportion.  Few of us could bear up under such strain.  There aren’t many true prophets of God’s calling.  But all of us are called to be “the man.”  We are called to become the representatives of agony, emptiness and tragedy associated with our sinful communities so that we may allow the Father to reach these places through us.  It is of little value to offer grace from a distance.  Grace is only experienced in the presence of sorrow and defeat.  Until you and I identify ourselves with the terror of the lost, we will have no witness with them.  We must be “the man” who knows what it is like to be afflicted by His wrath before we can offer words of comfort and hope.

God guides us to these dark places for a purpose. That purpose is so that we might know what it means to be alone.  I have nothing to offer a man in an empty universe if I have never been there myself.

Topical Index:  the man, haggeber, empathy, prophet, Lamentations 3:1-2

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Rich Pease

Yup!
I, too, am the man. But I didn’t have a clue.
My first 37 years were fun-filled, frivolous, adventurous, religious,
self-serving and completely in the dark.
It’s marvelous to trace back and see God’s guiding hand as He so
graciously brought me out and into the full light of His mercy and grace.
Now, as I minister to so many who are either still in the dark or just
coming into the light, I know full well “where” they’re coming from.
God has prepared my life to be an empathetic and caring witness as I
continue to press on toward the prize.
He knew exactly what He was doing, and I’m so grateful to be called
into His service.

Brian Toews

I live in a community wich is all menonite,they are steeped in tradition of the church.I came out of the church and started teaching torah to a small group of people who understand the law has not been done away with.When I approach others in this community it is met with distain.Unlike Jerimiah I seem to lack sympathy the way I should.This concerns me,I guess its just imatureaty.The biggest problem is they don’t want to study.

robert lafoy

1Pt.2:21-24 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I wonder how we got so far off base. In both these passages the “minister” or servant of God engages, he doesn’t run away. Popular theology would tell us that we will be removed from tribulation and yet here we see at least two examples of not only “seeing” but experiencing tragedy as well.

Jeremiah says that he “has seen” (ra-h) affliction….Gen. 12:7 and YHWH “appeared” to Abram….Gen. 16:4 and when she “saw” (Hagar) she had conceived…..perhaps there’s more to this “seeing” than we presently understand. I wouldn’t think Hagar saw the seed invade the egg but rather she understood it by experience. Maybe to be made manifest by experience would be a better understanding.

I find it interesting that the difference between seeing and fear is only an addition of one letter at the front, the yod (yirah or yod-resh-aleph) used in Hebrew as the singular.(ie; me”) “Fear” could be translated as “I” see/saw. Do we stand back and watch without intimate engagement, (fear) or do we jump in and understand by experience? Are we hoping for isolation or removal or do we jump in whatever the cost?

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Among all those “bad guys” lie the fearful, the “I saw” but didn’t experience with the others. Yeshua questioned whether He would find faith on His return. Just some things to ponder.

YHWH strengthen us, in the authority of your Son, Yeshua…….

Brett R

Question for Skip: Have you lost control of this blog? Has it become something you never intended it to be? I am sincerely respectful of your knowledge and educational achievements. I am sure you have followed every philosophical rabbit trail to its end more than anyone else here has the time to. I am sure you are even a better judge of the extent rabbinical thought has been hellenized. However, your exasperation, as well others on the site, with differing views is becoming more pronounced. You are rightly critical of the church having a list of orthodox reading. My reading/listening is pretty varied also. But it seems to me that you have already settled issues and now have your own list of relevant teachings. The thing I like about hebrew is that it helps to understand Gods mind. It is not just a description of reality, but actually produced the reality. Einstein said ” show me gods mind, all the rest are details.” A picture paints a thousand words, but hebrew is not just pictographic, it is more holographic. You see different things from different perspectives. Rabbis that i have read/ watched reveal things i did not see before, but from a christian perspective, i see things they don’t. Its not as simple as “hebrew good, greek bad.” God never wastes our experiences but uses all things for the good of believers, even our 2000 year trek through greek thought. When jew and gentile are united into one new man, the gentiles will bring as much to the table as the jews, namely our knowledge of Christ. This is how god works. They have something we need, and we have something they need. We are reconciled to one another so as to complete one another. I view this blog as a family with differing perspectives. It gets noisy and sometimes heated, but always more interesting because of the differences. Much more interesting than a hallelujah chorus. I love the subjects you bring up but my response is usually “Yes, but”. I guess carl would say i am the family member with the biggest “but”. One thing that concerns me is the comment by some that they have left the church or “Christianity”. Yes the church may be lukewarm and blind and naked, but it is the same church that with one more refining will be that spotless bride. There is one faith and one spirit. Dont rebuild a wall of seperation that Christ tore down. If these comments dont belong here, then i will still check in to read but not comment.

Ester

I for one will vouch for what Skip has written here. Shalom!

Luzette

The MEANING of my experience with God should be the MATCH that lights this fire.

I think many are on fire, but that fire is just running wild in all directions. We ask for it and then don’t know what to do with it and most of the time its only about me. If His fire is burning in me to do HIS righteous Ways – emphasis from me to Him – everyone and everything close to me will feel the heat, myself included.
In a hole in the ground, I can shout and scream all day long: I am on fire, I am on fire – and the only one who gets burned is me. Everyone around me only experience the toxic fumes. I have told myself that the “cave”, (self-made) and the “womb “(the place of God’s compassion) is the same place – not so.

Yes, …. I want the truth, ….my heart also aches for all who is still walking the path of ignorance without knowing or wanting to know……identifying the barricades and tearing them down is hard work. Its like peeling through the layers of an onion – it makes you cry all the time(my mistake/their mistakes). Surely if we all step in and take on one layer at a time (like keeping the mitvoh – one at a time), we can do this….and all cry together – for the good and the bad!!

Definitely time to move on!

Michael C

As many of you know, I’ve become a devotee to mountain bike riding. I’m navigating trails as often as my aging body allows. I currently have a pretty good, slightly above beginner’s level hard tail MTB (mountain bike). Now with a little experience and knowledge of the sport, I have desires of a better, more capable full suspension 29er (29 inch wheels) MTB.

I could buy anew one, however, I have the itch to build one myself according to my own specifications. I know exactly what I want of the myriad of options regarding equipment available today. I have made a list of each part required. Now, I realize I need specific tools to assemble this dream bike of mine. I can’t just rely on the common tools I own presently. To build this bike I must research and purchase specific and specialized tools to complete my mission.

This is where I have been for the past number of years in my life, so to speak. I’ve been learning how to retool. I have literally thrown out hundreds of books that occupied my boxed in, vetted and approved library. Gone.

I’m restocking now. Retooling. Revamping my glasses, my shelves and the staff around me. Much dust, much reorganizing, much trash to throw out often. Slowly but steadily it’s happening thanks to people like Skip, many of you and a handful of others I’ve bumped in to along the way.

Like my MTB adventures, it’s been bumpy, challenging, and breathtaking continuously. But, all in all, one of the best E-ticket rides I’ve taken in a long while.

What an adventure.

Thanks for your tenacity and patience with us, Skip. You have been a great lighthouse operator. You have illuminated much for me, warned me of significant rocky places, and gently yet firmly guided me to light and safety. Many thanks and much gratitude.

Thomas Elsinger

An encouraging response. Thank you. Truth is a rope. Throw it out there, and people can either hang themselves with it–or save themselves with it.

Dorothy

Today’s TW set me into more desperate prayer for our nation!
We all see different points in a TW I guess because we are all unique individuals.

BLESSED IS THE NATION WHOSE GOD IS THE LORD – Ps 33: 12
This is why we need to be in constant prayer for our nation.
When judgment comes the godly WILL suffer the pains of it same as the ungodly.

Jeremiah is an individual believer whose fate is bound up with that of the nation;
His affliction was greater than the other prophets, who also prophesied of the destruction of the city and temple, but did not see it. Jeremiah lived to see/experience it.
He was not the only man that endured affliction, but he had a large share of them, and was in this a type of Christ, — a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief.

The struggle between unbelief and faith is often very severe.

I so much appreciate the comment of (big but) Brett, — who dissolved me with laughter at that point!
Yes, it would be a mighty tight blog with only one window for thousands to view from.
And Jerry’s comment yesterday, — my spirit bears witness also to the things he pointed out:
the Disciples recognized Moses on the Mt of transfiguration, etc.
And I don’t know these gentlemen, this might be the only point in which we agree, but it sure it nice to see a mind on the like path once in a while here!
It is a fact that the more mature a person is, the more freedom he gives another.
Notice how mature God Himself is? Lol

carl roberts

One more “big but,” Brett.. ( I hope the sin of syntax didn’t discover me here!). How about “but God?”

~ But God who is rich in mercy!” ~ (Ephesians 6.4) Even though man does not live by bread alone.. but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God- I could live on those seven words for a month, minimum! Praise God- praise the God whose Name is Yah for He is rich in mercy- rich to “whosoever will’ call upon His Name! Does this (he inquired) include the Jew or is this calling upon tHis Name for the Gentiles only? No, “whosoever will” includes a whole bunch of folks, including sum-dum-guy known by a few fellow travelers as “Carl.”
Let me give the theologians something to chew on.. ~ other sheep have I which are not of this fold! ~
What does this mean? Let’s ask Noah, maybe he might shed some light for us.
How many ani-mules were on the ark with Noah? Were there “both” clean and unclean ani-mules? Yes and don’t you know there was some kind of caucaphony happening within, especially when the seas started getting rough! Must have driven Noah nuts! (I wonder if he ever said- “why did I ever sign up for this?” Surely he prayed, “deliver me!”
Diversity, dear friends is an established fact. Not all blue, not all purple – we are a diverse people with a common Savior. What unites us (and what divides us also) is Christ, only. It matters not your religious background or culture or “upbringing” or whether or not your grandfather was a staunch Methodist.
What matters most is “what will you do with Jesus (who is called) the Christ?” On THAT day, and it will be a blessed day- (still listening?) Hear these words: ~ EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD ~
My suggestion is that we start practicing this today. Anyone here think it is mere “coinkydink” that “bow the knee” and “blessing” are the very same word in Hebrew? I don’t. I don’t think it strange at all. To me, it feels quite natural to worship the very ONE who gives unto me my daily bread and “breathings.” Every time I breathe in and out- let it be to bless the ONE who gives life unto all.
Let us return to the story of a family in crisis. The younger son has left – and wishing his own father dead, demanded his inheritance immediately. The father complied, and the young lad basically “blew it” living high, wide and handsome- until the money ran out and when it did- so did his friends.
Then he came to himself.. He said,to himself, “self,”- why don’t you go home and be one of your father’s servants? They eat pretty good. So off He went in the direction of “home.” And what do we read in God’s Book? The Father ran to meet him, while he was yet “far off.” Yes, He ran to meet him.
I have to pause here- compose my “self.” I love this story. You have never met this foolish, wandering son but today, you may. I am him. Now let me share with you what happened when this young man returned. Elder brother wasn’t too happy for him. That just doesn’t click with me. Why would you not be happy to see your own brother back at home? Did the Father notice the mind-set of the elder brother? Why aren’t you happy to see your brother come home? – and on it goes.. The central character in this story is not the one who strayed or neither the brother who stayed. This story centers on the Father.
What was the heart of the Father during all of this family squabble? Who here among loves to be part of a big family squabble, – raise your hand. What? No takers? Now hear this..(listen good).
~ God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself ~ Because God so loved (“who?”)- the world.
Somebody needs to broaden their horizons- this gospel,this good news is for every person who draws breath. Whether a little girl or an old lady, only sinful people need apply. If you are righteous (or consider yourself to be)- this gospel, this good news about a Savior is not for you. Go and enjoy life, but remember.. He has said, ~ No one (no, not one) comes to the Father except through Me ~ Not the Jew, even an educated Jew, not a Gentile, not even a passionate Gentile- “NO one, (no exceptions to this rule) not one, except by Me.”
Now who would say such a thing? We don’t speak much about Christ, do we? Why is this so? Is He so divisive? or controversial? or offensive?

John Walsh

Carl,
Your words soothe my heart as I read them here on Shabbat after a week of some long tiring driving between SF Bay area and San Diego and back.
So nobody will think that you are blowing smoke out your nose and foaming at the mouth ( who would think that ??!!) I do not think you will mind if I add specificity to a few of the wonderful Scriptures that you allude to in your post. These are Scriptures that are sweet as honey to those of us who are Universal Reconcilationists. I will use the RSV which, despite its flaws, remains one of my favourite translations:

“Salvation is found on no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:2)
Comment: There is not a Muslim way, or a Hindu way, or a Buddist way, a Yogic way or a Marxist way, or a Jewish way. THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY!

“Then, as one man’s (Adam’s) trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one man’s (Yahshua’s) act of righteousness lead to acquittal and LIFE for ALL men.” (Rom. 5:18) Emphasis mine
Comment: Here Paul cannot possibly mean anything else but salvation for all mankind!

“All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you, on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2Cor.5:18-21)
Comment: WOW! Please note now and forever – as Paul shows in first few words: ITS ALL GOD’S DOING. His free gift to all mankind.

‘Turn to me and be saved, all ends of the earth! For I am Elohim, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return:
‘To me EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear.” (Isaiah 46:22-23) Emphasis mine
Comment: I think that when Elohim swears by Himself about something, it is a sure thing to happen, don’t you agree?

Thanks, Carl Roberts, for your inspiration to me today.

Dorothy

All the belief in Universal Reconciliation does is guarantees that more people will end up in hell, as you spread this, instead of preaching the Gospel that they might be saved.
I can’t figure how anyone really believes that the same ones who reject salvation thru Jesus’ finished work on the cross, go to hell, and somehow, under the tutelage of demons, be taught, then ‘come to their senses’ and be welcomed into heaven???

Do you have any loved ones who are lost? With your view, do you witness to your loved ones, and if you do, why? Or to anyone for that matter? Why spend time in prayer for their salvation if they are going to be saved eventually anyway? And it certainly touches how you view yourselves. When you sin, do you run to the cross so that your sin can be forgiven, or are you, and your loved ones, just as well off without Jesus?
That’s all it ultimately leads to: “don’t need Jesus”. That is a doctrine of demons.

I don’t know if you would care to read this — if so, here it is, if not — Okay

http://michaelrjones.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/why-christian-universalism-is-wrong/

John Walsh

Sister Dorothy,
I appreciate you taking time to respond to my post. You strike me as a sincere and well meaning person. But really, you do not take the time to study what I am saying and what UR really stands for. Or perhaps you simply do not understand that Yahshua is at center of my reasoning why UR is guaranteed by Elohim himself. Why do you NOT believe the WORD of God that I quoted above: Every knee shall bow to Him – but Dorothy says that cannot be!

Dorothy, lets agree on one thing – I will never convince of the veracity of UR. It is not my job to do that. You will learn the truth soon enough. Neither will you ever convince me of your satanic / Greek concept of unending torture in this Hell fire of yours. I have studied this subject matter for a long time and know most all of the arguments on both sides. So, lets be gracious to each other and agree to disagree on the topic and stay out of each others hair.

The one thing that I notice Skip does not have a big appetite for on TW is repeating the same old, same old complaints / arguments without introducing fresh thinking. So, please busy yourself with topics you know a little about and we all will be the better for it.

I will no longer respond to any of your posts on UR, OK.

Shalom.

Dorothy

John, I understand how you feel, and no reply is fine, but I do have to respond.
I promise you I don’t like to have to send this to your email box either, — I know you don’t want it,– but this method is the only one for placing it in the thread.

I am going to take the time to publicly deny that I am calling God is a lair when He says every knee shall bow. I acknowledge it is true. I bow my knee here and now of my own free will.
Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, Pol Pot, etc. will bow their knees, too, but Scripture does not say they will want to. It says they will! So they will. Those who are wise do it before death, because there is no second chance. Man is appointed to die once and after that the judgment.

You’re right, ‘Dorothy’ is not worth listening to, but God’s Holy Word is. I do not sit out the game of life on the bench, I don’t want any regrets that I let opportunities pass me by on blogs, in a grocery line, anyplace, where I had a chance to speak up for very clear Bible teachings.
Your years of deception are in no way binding on me. I speak still.

UR fails to recognize how offensive sin is to a Holy God Who dwells in unapproachable light, and how indescribable is the gift of salvation, how much it cost Jesus to purchase our salvation, and how much love God the Father had/has in order to give Him. It fails to recognize God’s nature includes justice.
Even in this life, a crime is gauged according to the worth and dignity of the person it is committed against. If a person threatens my life, and I report it, the authorities would tell me they cannot act until the suspect does. But if that same individual makes a threat against the President of the USA, the law will be swifter to ‘act’ for him, while not for me. All sin is vertical before it is horizontal, an eternal punishment is fitting for crimes perpetrated against an everlasting Creator. More especially when a precious payment was so graciously offered, — but rejected. Its not cruel of God, its dumb of the sinner to pass up a chance for “Paid in Full” to be stamped across his life record.

Not all evil is punished in this life, but it will be in the next. Without hell, there would be no final victory over evil. God could have reasons for making an eternal hell that we have no capacity to grasp, –Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Isa 40: 13

Most important of all: Why would Christ suffer and endure all that He did if there is not an unthinkable punishment awaiting those who sin against God?
The devil does all he can to detract against God’s worth, and justice, and supreme evidence of His love, and grace, but try as he will, there are those who speak however ridiculed we are, or marginalized, and continue in all methods possible to lift up JESUS and CALVARY.
Peace with God was made at the cross, for whosoever will.

Dorothy

O, forgot to say, this was not written to convince you.
There are always a few readers out there undecided, I present it for them.
God is the one who is able to convince, He hasn’t laid that on His servants.
God knows if there is even one, — even should 50+ chime in agreement with UR,
it won’t keep God from reaching that one on His mind.

This is all.

Ester

“Jeremiah was a righteous man. He was obedient to YHWH’s will.”

First criteria of being a prophet called of YHWH; he has to be obedient to His will, to be so tuned-in to His voice. Gen 18: 17 Shall I hide from Avraham what I am doing.

“I am the man” is a statement of solidarity with those whom God is judging.”
To stand by those who will be judged is to be able to stand in His Presence to seek His chesed and rachem/mercy/forgiveness, as Avraham did for Lot, Sedom and Amorah Gen 18: 23-32.
HOW could this be achieved unless Avraham had first been obedient to YHWH, Gen 12:1, GO, he was commanded, and he left without seeking the Whys and the Wheres.
This was the reason he was accounted righteous, his obedience.

Not their disobedience but the terror and heartache of the disobedience of those whom they are trying to reach.
Every one bears their own acts of disobedience, to give their individual account.
But to experience the terror and heartache of those who are so muddled up in the gross darkness of deception these days, must surely bring us to our knees to cry out before YHWH, to touch their ears and eyes to hear and see spiritually to understand that there is coming a day of judgement for the way they live, and that they may have the same joy and Shalom that we have in blessing YHWH.

We have to sound the shofar to warn, but, first we have to get right with YHWH, for our cries to be heard by Him, for He will turn His Face from those who presume they are His, but guard not ALL His commandments.

“We are called to become the representatives of agony, emptiness and tragedy associated with our sinful communities so that we may allow the Father to reach these places through us.”
And also to those who have strayed away, or misguided /misled to a wrong path, a wrong interpretation of Scriptures (that’s what Skip is attempting here, and so often misunderstood by those who are not reading his many TWs and articles to grasp what he is sincerely doing for the purpose of bringing them back to the well-trodden path of the Patriarchs of our belief.)

Blessed are those who have ears to hear. Meshiach/anoint our ears, ABBA, and those of our loved ones, our relatives, our friends, and those who seek, for they shall find. ABBA, You are not willing that any should perish. Thank You for Your chesed. YOUR will be done on earth as it is in the heavenlies. Amein v’amein!

robert lafoy

Amein Ester

sharon

Dear Skip, (or anyone who knows)

Is there a way for me to get a copy of my posts on TW?

Thanks,
Sharon

Dorothy

I take whatever I want — that means Carl’s posts. Highlight the text you want including time and date, copy and paste it to your word or documents, whatever you use. Make a file.
It still belongs to whomever, but your own comments are yours.

Curtis H

You can try entering into Google: site:skipmoen.com Sharon
It will give you a list of all the pages where you’re name is mentioned.

sharon

Thank you Dorothy-

I was hoping there was an easier way since the dates go back before Irene. Maybe my computer has them in the trash.

sharon

thank you Curtis! Wow you are up early, and on TW? I’m impressed:)