Origins of the Idea of Sinful Nature

Christians who follow the theological bent of Augustine and Luther claim that these men derived the doctrine of sinful nature from Scripture, particularly the Genesis account of the Fall. Luther’s articulation depends on Augustine, one of the early church fathers, in spite of the differences between the two on soteriology. However, since the rabbis worked with the same Hebrew Scriptures for centuries before Augustine and did not come to the same conclusions about the fallen nature of Man, the question arises: “What sources influenced Augustine’s interpretation of the text?” This question is not trivial. Either Augustine had a special revelation from God Himself regarding the interpretation of the Genesis text or he “saw” in the Genesis story something that allowed him to borrow ideas from other sources or he derived the idea from his own study independent of all other sources. Augustine makes no claims concerning the first of these alternatives so we can confidently dismiss the thought that God whispered the doctrine to him. That leaves us with either his exegesis or his application and modification of prior ideas. We might note that Augustine rejected the rabbinic view (see below) because of his anti-Semitism, not unusual for most of the Church fathers. This means that Augustine had to find his sources somewhere other than in the Talmud and the rabbinic writings.

Scholars often note that Augustine was deeply influenced by Plato. It should not be surprising to discover inherent Platonic ideas in Augustine’s theology, and in fact, this is certainly the case when Augustine adopts the Platonic dualism between the material, corrupt world and the spiritual, perfected world. But the origins of doctrine of the sinful nature of Man that influenced Augustine may be considerably older than Plato. In order to discover similarities that may have affected Augustine’s formulation of the idea, we need to uncover the two crucial elements of this doctrine and then investigate even older views that make the same or similar claims.

In brief, the idea of sinful nature includes two central themes. The first is that because of Adam’s disobedience all men since Adam are subject to a spiritual defectiveness, a loss of the ability to enter into the presence of God. This defectiveness not only includes collapse of the relationship with God but also their ability to reason clearly about God, to obey Him as a consequence of understanding His demands, and to turn their lives from sin to righteousness. Simply put, fallen Man is incapable of turning back to God without the expressed and deliberate action of God Himself. This is the idea expressed by Calvin as total depravity. While some theologians following the Reformed tradition may not adopt all of these points (for example, they may not hold the complete fall of reason), the belief that the Fall produced inherited defective spiritual awareness and ability is almost always included in some form or another. As the theologians put it, “Natural man is incapable of any spiritually efficacious act.”

The second pillar of sinful nature deals with the implications of this spiritual deformity on the acts of fallen men. As a result of Adam’s failure, all men since Adam are born with a driving propensity toward sin, a propensity that actually causes men to sin. Unlike the Jewish view that Man is the crossroads of choice for good or evil, the doctrine of sinful nature teaches that Man in his natural state cannot help but sin. His ancestors supplanted the ability to choose righteousness with an irresistible desire of selfishness that inevitably results in sinful choices. Man is not only guilty for his own acts but, in Adam, is guilty for the initial act of disobedience that he repeats and endorses in every subsequent sinful decision. This “Federal Headship of Adam” is the reason for the sinfulness of all men. It is part of the legacy of the Fall.

These two pillars rest on another doctrine, that is, the existence and immortality of the soul. There is little point in asserting the depravity of Man, his consequent sinful condition and his need for divine deliverance if Man does not survive the grave. Christianity assumes the possibility of eternal reward or punishment as a basis for understanding the action of grace or wrath. It is abundantly clear that the body does not survive death. Therefore, the idea of eternal reward or punishment has little consequence for a decomposed body. Something of Man must survive in order for justice to have post mortem application. The Christian conclusion is that the “soul” of Man continues to exist following the death of the body and it is this entity that is subject to final determination under divine justice. Resting as it does on a Platonic dualism, the affirmation that the soul is eternal seems quite plausible. But this dualism is not the only way to read Scripture.

Hebraic thought prior to the influence of Hellenism in the 4th Century BC seems to have understood death in quite a different way. There is almost no material in the Tanakh that speaks of any sort of existence following death. Since Hebraic thought about human existence does not conceive of any dualism between body and soul, the death of the body means the non-existence of the entire person. This is readily apparent in the Hebrew word nephesh, often inappropriately translated with the Greek idea of “soul.” Nephesh is an inclusive concept, not distinguishable in parts. It is the Hebrew idea of “person,” applied to nearly every function of human being. At death, the body returns to the ground from which it came (as Scripture suggests – ashes to ashes, dust to dust). The animating force of the person, the divine breath of Genesis 2, returns to its source as well, in this case, YHWH. In Hebrew thought the animating force is not “owned” by the human being. It is borrowed during the lifetime of a person and is given back at death. Sheol is a place (?) of all the dead, but its role in Hebrew thought is very nebulous. There is certainly no well-developed idea of eternal reward and punishment in the Tanakh. What men hope for is a full life here on the earth. In the first century, Hebrew thought seems to include the idea of a final judgment but this is not necessarily conditioned upon the spiritual existence of disembodied “souls.” The expectation of a final judgment is built on the idea that God will resurrect all the dead on Judgment Day. He will reanimate all those who have fallen asleep in the grave, not reunite them with their continuously existing “souls.”

This is a radical departure from the usual Christian idea of soul immortality. We might ask how Christianity, working with the same texts plus the apostolic writings, derived the eternal existence of one part of a human being called the “soul.” Briefly, that investigation takes us back to the intertwined connections behind the doctrine of sinful nature. Both ideas seem to have arisen from the Dionysian cult. An interesting connection is found in Linear B, the written language of the Mycenaean culture. The name of Dionysus was discovered in the fragments of Linear B. This is significant because Linear B predates the Greek pantheon of gods. Dionysus is not named among the Greek gods yet his cult is already present in Mycenaean culture. This means Dionysus is older than the Greek gods. That would suggest the cult may have been present as early as Minoan Greece. Significant parallels exist between the Minoan fertility cult and Dionysian religion. The predominance of women, the sacrifices for purification (including human sacrifice) and sophisticated temple rituals could imply that the Dionysus cult originated with Minoan or pre-Minoan cultures and there is evidence to suggest that the Minoan culture probably came from some parts of the fertile crescent. In other words, the Dionysus cult of souls may actually have originated in its infancy stage from cultures that would have surrounded Israel as early as 3000 BC.

The Dionysus cult included rites of birth, death and rebirth, trance induced experiences, spirit possession, a release from societal mores, and the postulation of a part of divinity within Man, that is, the eternal soul. If the connection from the Middle East to Minoan to Mycenaean cultures is correct, then the Dionysus cult included pagan rituals and thinking that Israel may have confronted when Moses led the people from Egypt. At any rate, this much is certain. The Dionysus cult of souls was already in place before Greece entered the Mycenaean period and the idea of the immortality of the soul did not originate with Plato but is in fact more than a thousand years older. When Augustine imported the idea from Plato, he was not picking up a purely Platonic idea (even if Plato refined the thought). He was actually borrowing a doctrine from pagan cultures of great antiquity.

There is little point in examining Hebrew texts to find antecedent suggestions of the idea of sinful nature. Even if there are texts historically older than the Genesis material, theologically Genesis represents the beginning of the Hebraic ideas and it is to this text that Augustine turns to establish his doctrine. Augustine employs Paul’s letters as explanation for the consequences and implications of the Fall, but it is the Fall that brings about the necessity of sinful nature. Therefore, in order to see if Augustine relied on older Greek ideas, even if these were transmitted to him through Plato, we must look to the record before Plato. When we explore these ancient texts, we discover something quite amazing.

Erwin Rohde in his classical treatment of ancient Greek religious ideas writes this about the Attic authors: “That the sins of the ancestors were visited upon their descendants here upon earth was an ancient article of faith especially strong in Attica.”[1] He continues with two examples:

“The conscious choice and decision, though regarded as necessary, seemed to demonstrate fully the personal guilt and responsibility of the doer. The cloud of evil that proceeds from the deed of the ancestor casts a dark shadow also over the minds of his son and his son’s son. Not from his own mind or character does the will to do wrong take its origin. The noble, pure and resolute Eteokles, the model of intelligent manhood, the shield and protection of his people, falls in a moment, a victim of ominous destiny; his clear-sighted spirit is darkened, he give himself up—his better self—for lost, and rushes upon his doom with awful resolve. The ‘sins derived from his ancestors’ drive him on.”

“God himself guides and urges forward Orestes to the act of matricide which he plans and carries out with fully conscious purpose—a crime that is also a duty.”[2]

Personal responsibility and divine compulsion mix to produce guilt-ridden behavior as if “divine justice” requires the guilt of the father be executed upon the son to complete the satisfaction of cosmic justice. In Attic poetry, the children pay for the father’s crime. God insists upon it.

We might reflect upon the parallel thought in Exodus 34:7 (“visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and forth generation). Is it possible that our translation of the difficult Hebrew verb paqad (to make a visitation) is really the reflection of a Greek idea rather than a truly Hebraic thought? Have we imported Attic poetry into our translations because our cultural view already contains the idea of trans-personal cosmic justice?

When we apply this Attic idea to the era of the Church fathers, we see that these Greek poets formulated the same proleptic justice demanded by Augustine’s idea of sinful nature. Adam’s “crime” requires appeasement. But its infraction is so great that divine justice can be served only by the punishment of all of his children. The idea of God’s vengeance perpetrated upon subsequent generations is a Greek conception of justice and is unknown among the Hebrew prophets. The prophets make it abundantly clear that every man stands before the Judge of all the earth on his own merit. No child is punished for the sins of his father or his father’s father although the consequences of the father’s sinful behavior clearly have effect upon the children. But consequence is not the same as guilt. Even the often cited verse in Exodus 34:7 cannot be read as divine vengeance perpetrated upon generations following the offense since the key word, paqad, has the sense of “oversight” (making a visitation) rather than executing judgment.[3] But Augustine did not think in Hebraic terms. His background was Greek philosophy and buried in the ethos of the Greek worldview are the remnants of Attic poets and the ancient pagan cult of Dionysus.

The cult of Dionysus seems to be at logical odds with the scientific bent of Greek philosophy. The Greek thinkers that spawned our ideas of a world governed by laws of cause and effect, devoid of the previous whims of the gods, might be considered immune to the ecstatic experiences of the Dionysus cult, but the idea of the immortality of the soul still appealed to the Greek sense of ethical justice. If, as the atomists suggested, a man simply disappeared at death in the rearrangement of “atoms,” true justice was not served upon those who escaped through disintegration and reincarnation. Therefore, many of the scientific philosophers still retained some strain of prior cultic affiliation where the “soul” and justice were concerned. They adopted in one form or another the underlying principle that “divinity of the human soul” was a fundamental constituent of the world, separated only from the infinite and unfettered life of the god by its bodily imprisonment. The cycle of purgation, needed for reunion with the world soul, was a reformulation of the idea of reincarnation. Through it the souls of men received their just rewards or punishments until at last they were freed from physical bondage and the material world. The common understanding of body and soul became the basis of Greek dualism, a separation of the physical and the spiritual that relegated all the material world to corruption, evil and suffering. This dualism ultimately affected most of the early Christian theologians and is still present in Christian doctrines today. The idea of sinful nature retains some elements of this Greek dualism since it proposes that after the Fall all the universe is somehow affected by sin and is therefore corrupt until and unless the action of the Spirit redeems it. Man in particular experiences this fall from grace, discovering that his spirit is imprisoned in a body constantly tempted and seduced, and from which there is no escape even in the saving work of God until at last his soul finds relief from the mortal body in death.

The Dionysus Cult of Souls offered the adherent a path of salvation through ecstatic union with the god and, at the same time, provided support for the desire for cosmic justice. If the souls of men survived the grave, then justice could have its way even after death. But if the purgation of the disembodied soul was not enough to avenge the crime, the gods could (and did) visit the required punishment upon the offspring or relations of the deceased. In other words, the Dionysus cult offered proleptic justice in this world and the next long before Augustine adopted the idea in his view of sinful nature. Someone must pay and in Greek religious thought, the requirement of payment reached beyond the life of the perpetrator.

It is worth noting that the Christian idea of appeasement comes from the same Greek background. According to the Reformers (but curiously not the early Church fathers), sin requires punishment because it violates God’s character. As a result of sin, God is angry with men and must be appeased. Only death will pay for the hideousness of sin. Therefore, Jesus offers himself as the substitutionary death, diverting the anger of God from the sinner. The cosmic scales of justice are balanced through the vicarious death of Jesus. All sin was transferred to Jesus on the cross. God’s justice is satisfied. We are redeemed. While Adam’s disobedience plunged all subsequent human beings into God’s wrath, Christ’s obedience and death on the cross reversed the process by fulfilling the requirement of divine justice. The parallels with the Dionysus cult are striking, including the sacrifice, purgation of “sin,” removal of pollution, healing and cathartic experiences. The Dionysus cult even contained an idea of atonement quite similar to later Christian concepts, that is, something akin to the penal theory of atonement adopted by the Reformers. Augustine laid the foundation for the thinking that an angry God, insulted and estranged because of human sin, requires cosmic punishment to avenge His slandered character. Luther merely adapted this idea to the cross event, claiming that Jesus “paid the price” for us, satisfying the anger of God. “The ‘stain’ which is wiped out by these mysterious and religious means is not ‘within the heart of man’. It clings to a man as something hostile, and from without, and that can be spread from him to others like an infectious disease. Hence, the purification is effected by religious processes directed to the external removal of the evil thing; it may be washed off (as by water from a running spring or from the sea), it may be violently effaced and obliterated (as by fire or even smoke alone), it may be absorbed (by wool, fleece of animals, eggs), etc.”[4] Greek religious thought eventually concluded that the body itself was the ultimate problem. The soul was pure, divine and unsullied by the corrupt world but it was imprisoned in an essential weak and evil container of the body. Therefore, the ‘soul’ required to be purified from the polluting embarrassment of the body.”[5] It is but a short step from this external contamination by evil forces to the inclusion of sin within the heart of Man. Augustine made that step by drawing on the Platonic development of these Dionysian ideas. Now the corruption of sin becomes the central characteristic of Man. His very soul is stained. Augustine is left with the theological problem of how to remove this essential, inherited nature. Augustine offered ransom. Luther added payment. But both men never questioned the origin of a view of God that suggests He is vengeful, angry, and punitive.

We might consider the parallels between the Christian idea that God’s action alone is the sole redemptive power in rescuing Man from his fallen condition and the Greek mystical religious claims concerning the entry of the god into the soul of a petitioner. In the Greek mystical religions, the god entered into the body of the priestess, taking possession of her soul and allowing her to receive heavenly revelation. “And this belief was that a highly exalted state of feeling could raise man above the normal level of his limited, everyday consciousness, and could elevate him to heights of vision and knowledge unlimited; that, further, to the human soul it was not denied, in very truth and not in vain fancy, to live for a moment the life of divinity.”[6] This idea of divine intervention and involvement in the lives of ordinary human beings was at the heart of the Greek mystical cults. The soul must be freed from the corrupting powers of bodily captivity. Orphic religions describe this avenue of salvation in terms quiet similar to later Christian theology. “A ‘release’ is possible; but man in his blindness and thoughtlessness cannot help himself, cannot even, when salvation is at hand, turn himself towards it.”[7] Salvation comes when the god affects purgation upon the adherent. “The height of morality is in this case the turning again towards god, and the turning away not merely from the weakness and errors of earthly being but from the whole of earthly life itself; renunciation of all that ties man to mortality and the life of the body.”[8] The Orphic cults even speak of the wages of sin, but within the cult, the wages of sin is the death of the soul because it is attached to the body. What is salvation? To be freed from the body and its earthly connection. How is this accomplished? By the direct intervention of the god.

The Orphic and Dionysian cults influenced both popular Greek thought and the constructions of the philosophers in two ways. First, they provided evidence for the belief that Man could experience the realm of the divine and secondly, they underscored the assumption that Man has both a soul and a body and was therefore connected to divinity. In Greek thought prior to Plato, the presence of the soul allowed men to become channels of the gods. After Plato, the religious tendency of Greek thought saw the souls of men as the representation of divinity captive in material bodies, released at death for reunion in some form or another with the spiritual realm of their prior existence.

Christian theology adopted this dualism, especially as formulated by Plato. The upper world of perfection was the true home of the soul. After the Fall, the soul remained imprisoned in the body but nevertheless continued to share in the upper spiritual world. The Fall represented a fall from grace, plunging the soul into contact with the broken, and now essentially corrupted, world. Just like the Orphic and Dionysian cults, on his own Man was not able to ascend to the heavenlies and return to soul-existence. The return requires the intervention of God. While Plato postulated that reason could lift a man from the delusion of the “cave” and return him to the true light, and the Orphic and Dionysian cults asserted that a mantic was the essential link between this fallen world and the heavenly realm, Christianity saw God’s elective force and the atonement of Jesus as the required bridge between the corrupted and the incorruptible. Plato’s reason was replaced by election. Dionysus’ ecstatic experience was replaced by the experience of the Spirit. But the methodology did not change the assumptions. First, men in their present state are corrupt and unworthy of the sublime. Secondly, the immortal soul is the only true connection with the world of divinity. Thirdly, through some intervention of the divine, the souls of men are capable of apprehension and acquisition of this ethereal realm. Fourthly, purgation of some sort is necessary to rid men of their corruption. And fifth, divine cosmic justice metes out trans-personal punishment for infractions against the god(s) by distributing the required punishment to subsequent generations. Each of these assumptions are present in the Dionysian and Orphic cults of the early Greeks and each seems to also be present in the work of the early Church fathers. It is true that the Church fathers rewrite the language so that it uses biblical terms, but the ideas are essentially the same. This is all the more telling when the rabbis, with the same biblical language at hand, did not develop doctrines similar to those of the Church fathers. Rather than view God as an insulted ogre ready to inflict punishment upon the despicable sinner for being born with the stain of his ancestors, rabbinic thought (and the parables of the Kingdom recounted by Yeshua) portray the Father as eternally anxious to restore the relationship at any cost, lovingly coaxing Man back into fellowship by offering Himself as the means of grace. The Father is running to redeem the prodigal, not standing aloof waiting for the sinner to receive his deserved wrath. The significant difference between the rabbis and the Church Fathers is the Greek pagan culture.

This suggests that the original idea of original sin comes not from Scripture or actually from Plato but rather from those religious ideas imported into the mindset of Greek paganism from the East, hundreds of years before Plato added his articulation. If this is true, and the evidence certainly seems to support it, then the idea of original sin and its consequent doctrines of noetic depravity, divine election, and distributed retribution are actually pagan ideals disguised as biblical (that is, Christian) doctrines.

Perhaps the rabbis were simply fortunate that their antiquity revolved around the prophets and not around ecstatic rites. Perhaps that’s what saved them from the same inclusion of pagan thoughts. Or was it that a commitment to Moses provided a bulwark against the incursion of any idea not directly supported by Torah?

 

[1] Erwin Rohde, Psyche: The Cult of Souls & Belief in Immortality among the Greeks, Vol. 2, p. 423.

[2] Ibid., p. 424.

[3] See the discussion of paqad in TWOT.

[4] Edwin Rohde, Psyche, p. 295.

[5] Ibid., p. 302.

[6] Ibid., p. 291.

[7] Ibid., p. 342.

[8] Ibid., p. 343.

Subscribe
Notify of
28 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Judi Baldwin

Re: The prophets make it abundantly clear that every man stands before the Judge of all the earth on his own merit. No child is punished for the sins of his father or his father’s father although the consequences of the father’s sinful behavior clearly have effect upon the children. But consequence is not the same as guilt. Even the often cited verse in Exodus 34:7 (visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation) cannot be read as divine vengeance perpetrated upon generations following the offense since the key word, paqad, has the sense of “oversight” (making a visitation) rather than executing judgment.[3]

Question: Would it be safe to say that the “Collateral Damage” of the fathers iniquity is passed to the children for generations?

Cheryl

Thank you for this article! I hope this will lead to a future one on the origins of eternal damnation and punishment.

Dennis Wenrick

Wow, something to chew on. My paradigms are being challenged.
Dennis

Marty

I agree Cheryl! I hope this does lead to a future articles on eternal torment, conditional immortality, and universalism reconciliation. Do Aion and aionios mean eternal when discussing eternal punishment….IMO highly doubtful. The doctrinal dissertation of Hellen Kaiser and the works of other recent scholars are very revealing here.

Another great article Skip!!

Amadeus

I love this statement: “This is all the more telling when the rabbis, with the same biblical language at hand, did not develop doctrines similar to those of the Church fathers. Rather than view God as an insulted ogre ready to inflict punishment upon the despicable sinner for being born with the stain of his ancestors, rabbinic thought (and the parables of the Kingdom recounted by Yeshua) portray the Father as eternally anxious to restore the relationship at any cost, lovingly coaxing Man back into fellowship by offering Himself as the means of grace. The Father is running to redeem the prodigal, not standing aloof waiting for the sinner to receive his deserved wrath.”

This shows a loving Father looking to assist His wayward children. Just as He did so many times with His people, always so willing to forgive until left with no choice but to take action, but always looking for a way out for His children. This brings to mind this from Mt 18:21,22: “21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Am I always willing to do that?

Princess

So, would, “the sins of the fathers,” be considered a warning? (Watch how you live, as your sins will come back to haunt your offspring, not in the sense of debt but of legacy.) How does this fit in with genetic inheritance? Back around the time I had my kids, behaviorism was very big. I was assured that there was no need for concern that any of my offspring might resemble my family members if I was a good parent. Then to my consternation I hear No. one son use the exact same phrases (which he never heard from us) that my dad used, and he has only had visited with my family on three occasions, the last when he was 8.

There is much Greek and other extraneous influence within Judaism. Think Philo (Plato) and Maimonides (Aristotle.) I was shocked to discover in the 1980’s that many rabbis (especially the vast majority of Orthodox) believe in reincarnation, although their view is different than the Hindu/Buddhist one. I assume this came in during the Babylonian captivity?

Princess

I think the system of the time was helpful. Christianity had a highly educated clergy with illiterate masses. Judaism promoted universal education, so everyone was capable of an opinion. The Yeshiva method of argument (pilpul) allowed various interpretations and also examination of the works of current and past sages, rather than demanding adherence. That may be why, that although Judaism has its Bernie Madoff’s, it doesn’t have any Benny Hinns or John MacArthurs.

John Walsh

Very cogent observation, Princess!
Hierarchical church structures are mostly bad news for many reasons. The abusiveness of the Roman church through the centuries is well documented. One might expect the Reformation era to produce a change but no – they mostly continued with the same bombastic ways and attitudes running roughshod over the “sheeple”! While the synagogue system has not been perfect, it certainly has minimized abusiveness.
I have come to truly appreciate the dynamic of love and truth seeking I notice among the Messianic groups that I am familiar with. For sure, there are problems (human nature) but I feel blessed to have found such a spiritual place to call home. Torah centered groups have a chance to weed out and eliminate most of the garbage theology that Skip brings to our attention every day, and that still permeates much of Protestant and Evangelical church groups.

John Walsh

Hi Marty,
I appreciate your interest in Universal Reconciliation (UR)
Of the three main salvation outcomes held by most of Christendom, UR is the only one that truly makes sense. As you probably well know the other two are punishment without end and annihilationism.
Poor God – not able to save all His children! – such thinking makes a mockery of His Sovereignty over His Creation. The apostle Paul tells us in 1Tim. 2:4 that God “desires all men to be saved.” Done deal! – Our God gets what he wants every time without question.
When we understand the age periods of man revealed in God’s Torah Festivals, dismiss the nonsensical theology of believers going to heaven (see John 3:13) when they die and unbelievers going to “hell” along with the two resurrections (Rev. 20:5-6) we begin to make progress in our understanding of UR. Then the Jubilee found in Torah represents ultimate forgiveness of all sins. I think we all recognize that sin is considered a debt in Scripture. Of course there is much more to examine..
I highly recommend to you and everyone else the work of Dr. Stephen E Jones on UR. He is my favorite apologist on the topic and has written a number of books and booklets on UR such as “Creations Jubilee” and “If God could save everyone, would He”.
You can buy his books or read them for free on his website as you wish.

Dr Jones website: Gods-kingdom-ministries.net or simply google his name.
(I do not endorse everything Stephen teaches on other topics!)

Universal Reconciliation was widely believed and thought in the first few hundred years of the Christian Era before the church of Rome systematically started persecuting and killing off its proponents. (It seems to me that the apostle Paul was a believer.) Then when Augustine came along he became a big proponent of “endless torment” and it was almost game over for UR. It is easy to confirm that the Roman church and later the fiery preachers of Protestantism loved this “hell fire” and torment notion as a tool of attempting to install fear and self restraint (especially regarding sex!) among the sheeple!

One final thought. I think it best that we all avoid the term “Universalism” in the context of universal reconciliation – through the reconciling work of Yahshua Messiah! Sadly, “Universalism” has come to mean different concepts away from the salvivic work of Messiah that the enemies of UR sometimes use to denigrate this beautiful theology. Indeed, I never cease to be amazed at the vicious and rabid reaction some christians (?).have to teachings on UR. It can be very revealing, to say the least.
.If anyone wants to engage in email discussion on UR, my email is sjohnwalsh@gmail.com
shalom

Laurita Hayes

I love your heart, John Walsh, I really do. I guess what I need to see are the scriptures. Do you have any? Where is the one that states all will be saved?

Marty

Here is a partial list of scriptures supporting UR from tentmaker.org You may also want to take a look at the scholars corner on this site.
http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/ReconciliationScriptures.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/DoYouBelieve.html

A good introductory book obj the subject is Hope Beyond Hell. You can read to for free on http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

John Walsh

Laurita, i appreciate your kind comments! But telling me that “I love your heart” will not get you saved from hell fire!
Seriously though,, there is no “silver bullet” Scripture that blows away the hell fire and annihilationist crowd. That’s why UR and its related topics such as heaven, hell, lake of fire, freewill, aion, aionios, olam, all, soul, immortal soul, spirit, judgments, resurrections, sovereignty of God, unpardonable sin and more make for such an intriguing discussion on salvation issues. You and I know that there are wide and divergent opinions on this laundry list. I know I am probably not going to convince you or anyone by quoting a few of my favorite proof texts! That has been my experience. But I love to throw a few zingers out there at appropriate times on Skip’s blog with the intention of getting some of the readers to consider taking a look at one of Scriptures most intriguing topics!
In any case, I think that you have seen Skip mention with some frequency in his blog that playing dueling banjos with proof text scriptures does not win too many theological debates. We all have our favorite and sincere proof texts and so do those sincere folks who take opposing viewpoints! This is why we all love this theology stuff! The trick is to love (and hug where possible!) those who disagree with us..
UR is a complex and intriguing and has to be studied conceptually. The arguments of the oppositional groups need to be studied too. Many of them are weak and easily dismissed!
Laurita, I would like you to plug into a Google search: support Scriptures for UR and then plug in a search for: Scriptures that disprove UR and roll your eyes and laugh because the list is fairly long on both sides.
This is a very busy week for me but I don’t want you or anyone thinking that I am running and hiding. When I get back home on next Sunday I will start to post here some reasons why I became a believer in UR after a few years of study. We can stay here on the back pages of TW till you get tired of me, if you wish.. Let me know what you think
Meanwhile, if you have an appetite to study UR, I urge you to get Dr Stephen E Jones books that I referenced in my earlier post.
Naturally I would love to know which of the three main viewpoints you hold if any, and why you think UR could not possibly be true? That info will help me pick my approach to win you over!!
My departing thought: One pf my favorite UR basic proofs if Genesis 1:1 I will post the explanation next Sunday and .see if anyone is interested in more.
Shalom

Luis R. Santos

In the age to come will John be standing next to Hitler and Goebbel along with their Holocaust victims praising Yeshua their savior? No shuva/repentance needed on this side, because God is love?

John Walsh

Luis, as you might probably expect, in discussions on UR the issue of Hitler et al and the Holocaust frequently comes up. I totally understand people’s feelings and their reaction to these awful genocides. I hardly need say that the Holocaust is far from the only one.
In any case, Luis, we must recognize that all sin is odious to God. And sad to say, we all sin. The apostle James tells us: “For whoever keeps the whole Law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.” (James 2:10)
As a reader of skip’s blogs, I have every reason to believe that God is calling Luis to be a first fruit. That is God’s doing in your life. See John 6:44 “No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. and I will raise him up at the last day! This is the first resurrection especially for first fruits – see 1Cor 15 and Rev.20. Nobody with a godly mind will want to miss out on the Millennium age. But some of us will because of our unwillingness to be a forgiver of everything and every offence that God has allowed to come our way in life. That is a hard concept for many people to accept and I understand where they are coming from.
We know that many Jews quit their religious belief system after World War II because they were mad at God. They pondered why God allowed them to go through the genocide. God could have prevented it happening, couldn’t He? This was a monumental test and trial that God allowed to come upon the Jewish people.
There are many reasons why God allows these things to happen to humanity that I do not have time to get into here. But one important reason is God is using these tragedies to test peoples abilities to be a forgiver. Our God is a moral God. Yahshua told us that God forgives us our transgressions AS we are willing to forgive others their transgressions against us. No matter how difficult the offence, it is clearly God’s will that we all have to become forgivers. In our personal spiritual walk this is crucial! It seems to me that some of us will NOT be in the great first resurrection because we are unwilling to say what Yahshua did in His moment of excruciating pain and agony and trial: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”. .What a precedent He set for all of us to follow.
Of course there are many other examples too besides Yahshua. I love the example set by Joseph in the Tanakh. Here is a man who was hammered by his brothers and went through much hell and injustice. See Genesis chapter 50. This is a beautiful emotional story recorded that we might learn to forgive!
In a nutshell, Jacob had died and now the brothers feared payback time from their brother. Joseph took the high road! Look at his response to the brothers:
“As for you, you meant evil against me; BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.” (Gen 50:20)
One thing I can assure you , Luis, from the patterns I see in the Scriptures – Joseph is going to have a huge position in the coming Kingdom of Messiah probably ruling at the very top with Abraham etc. He passed the tests God gave him emphatically showing the Father that he is a forgiver as Yahsua was.
God is testing us all with trials and tribulations big and small. I do not know why God seems to deal very difficult cards to some. That is another topic!
But finally, lets all understand this . God screams at us: Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord” That is not an assignment he has given to us – to take revenge etc,. Many love to play God instead of trusting in His Infinite wisdom and His sense of justice, and His promise of justice. He has told us that He has assigned the dirty work of judging us all to the “Son of man” . So we can be confident that we have a brilliant and merciful judge in charge of it all! No worries, Hitler et al will get the justice they deserve in God’s good time starting at the Great White Throne Judgment at end of the Millennium.
If you are not familiar with Corrie Ten Boom the Dutch lady who lost most of her family in Auschwitz, Google her name, buy her books, and look at the stuff on her on Utube. She is a very very special woman who has inspired many to rethink their attitudes about forgiveness. Her crime was – her family hid several Jews from the Nazis!

Mark Randall

John, so is the bottom line to UR, is that at some point at sometime in the future, all humans that have ever lived and all the will, are going to be forgiven and reconciled to God? I’m just asking for the bottom line here. Is that the basic premise of UR? I’m just curious.

John Walsh

Thanks Marty for the referral. I am familiar with tentmaker stuff but will look forward to looking at “Hope beyond hell”
Shalom

Luis R. Santos

John you are right! What a waste! The Apostles, Paul, and 2000 years of believers have wasted their time and energy in evangelizing and decipling the lost. All is vanity! We waste our time!

Ian Hodge

Interesting presentation. Gen 3 indicates Eve was confronted with the proposition that God’s word and the Whisperer’s words were of equal value. Cannot take God at his word, it was suggested. While he may have made threats, perhaps he really doesn’t have the ability to pull it off. So Eve was challenged to ‘pretend’ neutrality between two competing propositions, assuming both ‘authorities’ were of equal value. Only Eve would be able to figure out who was telling the truth here and the only way it could be done was to eat the forbidden fruit.

At which point, the proposition is that man would now be ‘like’ God. In what way? Already made in the image of God, what was missing? What was missing was to ‘be like God knowing (determining) what is good and evil’ – right or wrong, true or false. So, is man now – since the Fall – desiring to be like God determining the ethical categories, or did the Genesis writer make a mistake?

Reading Matthew’s Gospel and the continual confrontation the Messiah had with the Pharisees provides no confidence in trusting the OT Jewish scholars. They had figured ways to get around Torah so that with their traditions they destroyed Torah – tithing mint and cumin pretending this satisfied the requirements of Torah-keeping. They had built a hierarchy of Torah commandment using their ‘higher ethical consciousness’ to build such a list. And Yeshua shot them down in flames.

Everywhere you look, from ancient Judaism to contemporary Christianity and outside of those influences there is one common goal – everyone does what is right in his own eyes. I don’t think that indicates any kind of ethical neutrality. As St Paul argued, Jew and Gentile are all locked up under the Torah. No one keeps it because they don’t want to keep it – until they have a change in heart. And Paul indicates that that significant change – deadness to sin – came about with our baptism (Rom. 6). So something has to be done in order for man to give up his claim to divinity. Without baptism (repentance, etc) there is no deadness to the desire to ‘be like God.’

Rich Pease

Good thoughts, Ian.

Right from the beginning, it’s been about free choice.

God created us with that absolute free reign. And in that
“freedom” came man’s natural instinct to trust himself.

Trusting God would need the gentle yet powerful influence
of God Himself upon one’s being, convicting man’s inner
resolve to change his self-preoccupation and open himself
up to receive God’s provision of saving grace through faith.

This provision of God is always present as Scripture tells us
God is ever drawing man back to Himself.

It only takes a twinkling of an eye for any man to see a-new
and change remarkably.

God’s love never ceases. Nor does man’s free choice.
But when God’s love squarely meets up with man’s
openness to choose, true freedom reigns and the
heavens rejoice! Baptism awaits.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is
the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the
righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it
is written, “The just shall live by faith”. Rom. 1: 16-17

Laurita Hayes

Ian, I am so awed. Thank you, you and Skip. I have been challenged a lot. A lot to pray about.

Ian, I have suspected that your point about the “desire to be like God” must be the bottom of the universal human paradigm.

Along this line, I have had to severely question my own motives. I have had to ask myself WHY I do not automatically naturally WANT to do it right in the first place.

When I went looking at myself, I saw some ugly stuff. I realized that my head must be thinking wrong, and I was coming up with the wrong conclusions every time, because I must have been believing some nonsense somewhere. Sure enough, when I went to ask (Yay, questions!), chief among these false beliefs of mine I found an illusion called “my own way”. However, on very close examination (based upon 20/20 hindsight, of course. LOL!), I saw that there was, actually, no real evidence of it (that’s what makes it false, y’all)! I was dumbfounded. I mean, I was even all set up for an apologetics reaction to this here ‘my own way’ thing, but, but, the dang thing didn’t even exist! Back to square one that sent me scrambling to in a hurry!

What I DID end up thinking I saw instead, however, was something called God’s Way, as well as something called the Wrong Way – plus something else called The Highway (just kidding!) – but there was NO SUCH THING CALLED MY WAY! It was a shocker! I saw that when I was obedient, God’s Way was easy to identify. BUT, every time I went to do the thing called ‘my way’, it was actually the devil that ended up with the score. I NEVER got a score! And, further, to add insult to injury, it seems it was that very fact that had been driving many of the chief frustrations of my life!!! (At which I am quite embarrassed.)

This sat me down so hard, I decided to go examine WHY I had fallen for such a thing for so long. I figured there must be a glitch in the hardware somewhere because I couldn’t find it in the software,so to speak, because for the life of me, I could not recall a time when I was not believing it, and thus, I could not recall ever making a choice that would have predisposed me to this belief that there was such a thing as My Way.

It was along about here that I think I began to suspect that the only lies I actually might be susceptible to were going to be the ones that already fit the paradigm I was functioning in (you are so right, Skip!) so then I went looking at what in me could possibly be making it so hard to see and respond to the truth.

I prayed and went through the Word cover to cover and searched my heart. I was going on the supposition that I could expect an answer to be as correct as the question was in describing the problem accurately. (This little detail has been one of the more delightful surprises of my life; learning that the answer will always be contained in the question to the degree that the question got the problem right;, and it has really changed how I go about seeking truth! I mean, that one’s GOT to be a God thing. It’s true! Questions ARE the right place for me to stay!))

So I decided the right question would be “What predisposes us to evil? If the Creator put noses on our faces, why can’t we naturally smell the nasty stuff a mile off? What blinds us to our enemy?”

So this is where I currently am at with this (and I reserve the right to be wrong about it tomorrow! Please!). I really think that it has to be a flaw in our belief systems. What is that flaw? What do we have to be believing wrong UP FRONT that sets us up for all the other lies? I didn’t know what to expect when I decided to go looking for, and at, these beliefs, but I will admit I was shocked, after I had sifted and sifted, that I finally got it all boiled it down to two things. Exactly two. (Sorry, y’all, but I have found no better way to describe them): I finally decided to call these two glitches 1. the “us’s and themses” and 2. the “somethin’s for nothin’s”. My conclusion ended up being that, in order for a human to fall for any other lie, they already must be believing a version of either one or both of these two, first.

1. I now think, (until someone shows me better, anyway) that we must naturally want to believe that it is possible to grade ourselves on a scale of humanness, of some sort, in which it is possible that some of us are more ‘human’ (thus, of course, making others of us, on some level, less!). I decided the above because of the studies that suggest that we have to somehow dehumanize another person before we can harm them. Further (and this is a real heinous thought), it is possible for me to attempt to set myself up AGAINST my Creator, in comparison or competition of some or any sort, as well as against His creation (where I am somehow ‘measuring’ myself in an attempt to establish a worth value) in all dimensions, BUT, the Bible teaches me that is not possible, much less wise, to measure or compare myself with Other of any kind, because we are all created UNIQUE (sorry, but I somehow have a problem with that equal stuff, but don’t quite know why); further, I suspect that because we are created in His image, we must also be unique to everything else, thus rendering any and all comparison/value establishment impossible. (Caught that one red handed!)

However, we are doing this all the time anyway, are we not? Is this not the basis of all comparison? And is it not the basis of all coveteousness, in which we have to artificially somehow believe there is a separation somehow between us and the Other, thus creating Want (which I think might be the evil corollary; the negative mirror image of; desire. (The devil can always, only, imitate.) Further, I think I can see that he has to have first ‘CREATED’ that want in us by convincing us that there exists a fracture in the first place: hence the imperative for this false belief. That plagiarist!)? And if it is clumsy and hard to understand this stuff, well, after all, I believe we are trying to wrap our heads around a bunch of nonsense when we try to talk about evil at all.

Talking about fractures being an artificial construct (yes, I’m caught and exposed here), I have recently come to a conclusion that the something that I have seen some people call the Dialectic might perhaps actually be a slip-up of the devil where he shows his bottom modus operandi. Anyway, this Dialectic (where something that is called a Thesis, is ‘naturally’ is set against something else called an Antithesis, thus somehow (“abracadabra mumbo-jumbo voila!”) ending up with a something else called a Synthesis), could actually be an accurate template for evil – to me, anyway – because, for the life of me, not only can I not understand it, neither can I find a corollary for it in nature, God’s handbook. (Please, somebody, show me a “dialectic”; I mean, even a baby one would be ok.)

I am also bringing this one up here because, along the way, I think II finally got tired of trying to treat all suppositions as equal, even though some never made any sense, no matter how seriously I tried to respect them, and so my current working definition of evil right now is “IT DON’T MAKE NO SENSE!” Seriously, though, I think that if it is a made-up conflict of some sort (which I think that this here Dialectic thingy (sorry) might could be exhibit ‘a’ for), it has to be evil.

Evil has to be What Separates, or fractures. But, “What God joined together, let no man put asunder.” “All things work together for good to them that love God…”. So the challenge for me is to get myself out of this paradigm in which I must somehow believe that all things and beings are fractured and set against all other things and beings (which, again, God’s little handbook shows to be a complete lie. In fact, I think the opposite is profoundly true, as it appears to be designed as co-existence or no existence), and get shifted over to this other idea, where nothing and no one is actually separated or set up against the other.

2. I also think that we must be born wanting to believe that such a thing as something for nothing is possible in any dimension, even though physical law, (which I have decided must be an accurate representation of the moral law) does teach us that this is nonsense (“For every action, there is an equal an opposite reaction”.) I mean, don’t we fall for all kinds of nonsense with that one? And religious nonsense has to chief among it all! (For example, I think that somehow we want to believe that either sin costs no one anything, or, if we perhaps realize that heaven was actually, well, rather emptied to pay for it, that somehow, we STILL get it for nothing. Yep, just checking; glitch #2 in full operation here!)

Back to that Garden. (Always, always am in that Garden – that place we were Put In And Never Should Have Left;- can’t seem to ever get past those first three chapters!) And that first lie-to-(InTheBeginning,devil style)-all-lies. Does that Lie also base on an expectation for those glitches? Is there an appeal in that one also to the “us’s and thems’es” and the “somethin’s for nothin’s”?

“Ye shall be as gods”. Yes, the COMPARISON stuff is there! And also is not the idea that there exists an additional Something that can be had AT NO COST; indeed, at a gain? Yes!

I am sorry, but I do not have a conclusion for anybody. I am still stuck right here on this one. I am dumbfounded. I do not know what to say or think about this. Can anyone help me?

I apologize for rambling, imposing, assuming and posturing, all of which I am pretty sure are there. Please be kind with me. Corrections and clarifications would be helpful! Everybody here is so wonderful!

John Walsh

Yes indeed Mark!
GOD is in the process of reconciling ALL of humanity to Himself. It seems to me that Paul makes that case several places. Here is one:
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold the new has come. ALL THIS IS FROM GOD, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ GOD WAS RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.” (2 Cor 4:17-19)
Sad to say, it appears most Christian teachers have forgotten or have chosen to ignore this message of reconciliation Paul said was entrusted to them!
Bottom line, Mark. Our eternal salvation is ALL God’s doing! Its simple as that. Mankind has no say in the matter though God gives us freewill. God works with His Children through “the heart”, not our wills. When He does that none of us can resist His overtures anymore! See Jeremiah 31.
Its ALL God’s doing, always was, is now and always will be! We are His Creation and in His own good time He will exercise His rights as the Creator to call us all out of the mess we are in and shape and mold us into what He wants us to be. He is the Sovereign One and His desire to give the gift of eternal life to ALL His children (1Tim.2:4) will happen because He gets what He wants all day everyday. To think otherwise is silly!
This is not an easy salvation or cheap grace plan. He reveals in Torah that He is a God of justice and that restitution is very much a part of His justice system. There will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” as Yahshua said when justice is meted out after the Great white throne Judgment in the post Millennium period. Some will be working off their debts to society for a long long long time it seems to me.

Mark Randall

I respect your position John but, I whole heartedly disagree. I could toss out 100’s on contextual passages that say quite the opposite, Including one like you even referenced, “everyone in CHRIST” being the key and that would mean that those that aren’t in Christ..? And really is Yeshua just joking when He tell’s those to depart from Him because He never knew them?

I’ve just led a life that has witnessed first hand way too many downright mean and evil men, right to the end, and straight tell the creator of heaven and earth to…. well you know, as they ended they’re life. And in many different ways. I mean a gun to the head pretty well guarantees that you don’t get a chance to reconsider. And many were all to happy with themselves in they’re last evil defiance of God.

No, my friend, I think that kind of view point could only come from those that haven’t witnessed what I have in people. And see the thing is, when your dead, your dead. You don’t get a redo and of course you probably wouldn’t even be able to think you’d like one, when your body no longer pumps blood.

I know I’m not alone, having been confronted with people that were just plain mean and evil till the very end but, how does UR deal with the realities I’ve stated above. And have you ever had the displeasure of witnessing such things? I’m 100% convinced of Paul’s view, that nothing within mankind is good apart from God, not one single thing. Even acts of apparent kindness and goodwill have motives and reasons behind them. And I’ve witnessed first hand what men look like that defiantly spit in God’s face as they breathed they’re last.

So, I just can’t for the life of me believe that our righteous judge will not judge mankind according to their deeds, as He says He will. And some of those deeds are directly and defiantly opposed to Him in ways that’d we have to be half nuts to think God will excuse some of it, and just say, “oh, don’t worry about your evil deeds that you continued in right till the end, come well done faithful servant, enter in to my rest”. I mean really, what’s the point of diligently seeking God and desiring to do good, if it doesn’t really matter in the end? That just goes against what HaShem has so graciously and loving (sometimes with a paddle) taught me.

Don’t get me wrong John, I don’t claim to even have half a real clue to the whole big picture. The more I study and seek Him, the more it becomes clear that I know so very little. I have no problem with your understanding the way you do. I’m just giving my two cents on it from my experiences. Blessings to you and your house.

John Walsh

Great Skip!
I will be looking forward to your audio lecture post

shalom

Princess

Well, we know the grass always looks greener on the other side. Orthodox Judaism is rife with covering up child molestation and other abuse, and while not as bad as the Catholic church in numbers, it is probably worse in regard to its downward reach, as these victims and their families are shunned by all in their communities if they refuse to keep quiet, and are often driven out of their homes and businesses.

You are right that any system of hierarchy is bad, and I have found it is still bad whether it is a paid or unpaid hierarchy or a formal or informal one. I had this discussion with a Christian pastor who said, “But you need authority.” I would argue that you don’t need the type of authority (institutional/positional) unless you are have a population that isn’t there by choice.

In Business 101, you learn about Theory X and Theory Y of management. Theory X says people don’t want to work and you need to police them and manipulate them with carrots and especially sticks. Theory Y says people take pride in doing a good job, and will work willingly if well-treated and respected. So, perhaps you have an X and Y theory of religion?

I am not saying there should be chaos and anarchy. If a person has a gift of leadership, they should exercise that as the need becomes apparent, without creating a one up one down relationship. I have been in house churches that are egalitarian. One problem may be that everyone so wants to be loving, that they don’t deal with people who cause problems, but this also seems like a holdover from the hippie, “all you need is love,” era.

I have never found a Messianic congregation that is egalitarian; every one is

Princess

(sorry, got cut off)

Every one that I am aware of is based upon an authoritarian or paternalistic male hierarchy, with the women also enforcing the hierarchy including their role limitations, i.e., “We are so prone to deception, we need men to protect us from our out of control emotions.” (facepalm) Skip would love to hear that I passed around copies of his books and also Rabbi Fohrman’s book among some Christian ladies I know. The ladies really enjoyed the books, but then I think some felt there were, “red flags,” in seeing things that were different, and they didn’t tell me, but I suspect they ran these by the pastor, who pronounced them heresy. They are all really kind and polite, so nobody said anything to me, but the conversation dried up.

Unless you know of some place things have radically changed, MessyWorld is still permeated with both evangelical theology and attitudes.

Rob Callicotte

I will read through the Old Covenant again, but I get my belief in sin from John in 1 John. Say don’t have it (noun)? Say you’ve stopped doing it (verb)? Both are signs of deception.