Extended Effects
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 NASB
Absent – Investigating the Greek verb, we come upon a rather interesting remark: “ekdēméō, endēméō. These two terms denote being abroad and staying at home. Not used in the LXX, they occur in the NT in 2 Cor. 5:6ff. to express the thoughts (1) that bodily existence is absence from the Lord, and (2) that full fellowship with the Lord is possible only apart from this existence. We and the Lord are in separate spheres. Faith overcomes the separation (v. 7) but is not the final reality. We thus desire to be out of the present sphere and at home with the Lord so as to enjoy the full fellowship of sight. Nevertheless, even in the present sphere the desire to please the Lord gives direction to life (v. 9).”[1]
What do we learn from this comment in the TDNT? First, we should notice that this verb is not found in the LXX. What does that mean? There is no biblical Hebrew equivalent in the Tanakh. Therefore, it seems that Paul is expressing an idea that is at home in Greek but not necessarily at home in Hebrew. Secondly, we find that this verb is not used anywhere else in the apostolic writings although its root (demos) is common. Finally, we should pay special attention to the conclusion of Grundmann concerning the “transitory existence” of the believer (for Grundmann, the “Christian”), especially with regard to 1 Peter 1:1 and 2:11. “The idea that the life of man is a sojourn and his true home is in heaven is found in Hellenistic philosophy. But here it is shaped by cosmological dualism according to which the soul belongs to another world and is imprisoned in the body.”[2]
Frankly, this is a tangled mess. Are we to believe that Paul, an orthodox rabbi, embraced a “cosmic dualism” in his desire to the absent from the body? Can we conclude that Paul believed in the existence of the “soul” in heaven apart from embodiment? Can we imagine that Paul believed the soul was imprisoned in the body? Was Paul a Platonist after all? It certainly seems as though Paul’s comment supports the idea of separate “worlds”; the world of separation from the Lord while captive to the material body and the world of heavenly fellowship outside the body. It certainly looks as if dying is desirable because it results in union with the Lord. But this flies in the face of everything we know about rabbinic teaching. The earth is not essentially evil. The body is not a prison house of the soul. The soul is not some independent “essence” of personality waiting to be freed from material constraint. Grundmann and many others read the verses as if they were Platonic (the “cosmic dualism”) because they have already embraced Plato’s separation. But did Paul?
The Talmud teaches us that the universal view of the rabbis was that this world is “preliminary to another and higher life.”[3] But at the same time, rabbis offered a multitude of opinions about this world to come, none of which were viewed as anything more than opinions. Much of their efforts revolved around the resolution of suffering of the innocent in this world in spite of the goodness of God, but the very fact that the place of bliss of the righteous is called Gan Eden indicates that the focus of rabbinic thought is not toward a new world unknown in any regard by men but rather a return to a world once enjoyed by Adam. This is certainly not a Platonic arrangement.
Is Paul consistent with Talmudic, rabbinic teaching? Is he offering an opinion from personal desire and experience? Does he mean to provide theological constructions concerning the afterlife? Or is he, per chance, speaking to Greek converts in language they would understand? Would Paul ever intend that “body and soul” are divisible?
I might need some help with this one.
Topical Index: ekdēméō, endēméō, absent, at home, body, afterlife, Platonism, 2 Corinthians 5:8
[1] Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (149). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.
[2]Walter Grundmann, parepidemois, TDNT, Vol. II, p. 65.
[3]Abraham Cohen, Everyman’s Talmud, p. 364.
The neoplatonic component of Christianity is best illustrated with the ascetics of the early centuries. The physical component of life was to be despised; it was on the ‘spiritual’ that had value. Fortunately, a healthier view of body/soul replaced this and the ascetics by and large disappeared. Unfortunately it still lingers as you indicate. But if man is only physical, a body, it might be worth asking, “where is your mind?” 😉
I’m not sure if Paul is trying to be consistent with the Talmud or not but, then again I don’t think he was a “orthodox rabbi” either. Surely not by what we know of a orthodox rabbi in the last 1500 years.
I think what he’s trying to describe for us was a common set of idioms. “home in the body” and “away from the body” according to the L&N were generic expressions in most languages for ‘life’ or being alive, and ‘death’ or being dead. And in the context of his entire statement he’s simply saying it doesn’t matter if I live or if it means I die, I will make my aim (shot for the bullseye of hitting the mark, ie keeping Torah) and be courageous “tharroumen” no matter what I face. And I will be confident in Whom I place my faith, to keep me and not lose me, even for one second.
This isn’t a stand alone concept. In fact in fits in line with what Yeshua told the thief on the cross, as well as what Paul gave reference to in 2Cor 12, “Gan Eden” in the Hebrew (Gen 2:8) and Paradise “paradeisos” in the Greek, the garden of Eden.
I happen to like what Tim Hegg said about the statement Yeshua made on the Stake.
“And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (Lk 23:43)
This second saying from the cross was addressed to one of the two thieves crucified at the same time. He was rebuking the other thief who was “hurling abuse” at Yeshua, saying “Are You not the Messiah? Save Yourself and us! (Lk 23:39), reminding him that they both were being executed for crimes they had actually committed, but that Yeshua had done nothing wrong and had therefore been condemned unjustly. He then makes the request to Yeshua, “… remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”, to which Yeshua responds “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” From this saying we learn several things. First, that simple faith in Yeshua secures forgiveness of sins and eternal life in His presence. The unnamed thief undergoes no religious ritual or prolonged conversion process but by simple expression of faith in Yeshua receives the promise of sins forgiven and life after death with his Savior.
While the word “Paradise” speaks to the reality of the intermediate state for believers, it gives us only a mere glimpse without much explanation. But what we do learn from this saying of Yeshua is that following the death of one who has believed in Yeshua, the conscious soul of that person resides in a state of peace, tranquility, beauty and comfort, which is the picture given by the word “Paradise,” for it reflects the Garden of Eden before sin entered the world. [The Greek word παράδεισος (paradeisos) is used in the Lxx of Genesis to describe the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:8–10, 15–16, etc.).] Moreover, the bliss and shalom of this place is secured by the very presence of Yeshua Himself, for He says to the believing thief “…you shall be with Me in Paradise.” Thus we learn that the abode of our loved ones who have died in the Lord is one of final shalom and joy, for they live with Yeshua, their risen and glorified Savior.”
While I don’t claim to understand exactly what happens, or exactly how this body and soul goes to this place “paradise”, i do however believe what Yeshua said, and I do know and trust it will be just as he says. Wether or not we’re able to fully wrap our minds around this whole understanding is far less important to me then knowing He will bring me to Himself. And I have no doubt it would totally blow my mind, in my current mortal state, to even get a small glimpse of this reality, just as I think Paul did.
Both Isaiah and Matthew, along with those amazing passages in 1Corinthians 15, and Revelation 21, all describe the remaking of this earth at the “end of the world” as a prelude to a place not only fit for a New Jerusalem sent from heaven, replete with a throne where God Himself resides with His people, but also a new creation of people raised from the dead and GIVEN immortality and “incorruption”, and therefore fit to inhabit it. Revelation further describes a new Eden within the context of that glorious City, replete with the Tree and the River of Life.
Sounds like Paradise restored, to me.
” I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body [in this world] and to be at home with the Lord [in the next].
todd has said it very succinctly. Paul clearly believes in being clothed with a new body.
(2Co 5:4 ESV) For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened– not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
So he is probably talking about the same thing as (1 Cor 15:53 KJV) For this corruptible [body] must put on incorruption [incorruptible body], and this mortal [body] must put on immortality [in the world to come].
Could Paul be referring to the concept in Eccl. 12:7….”then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.” Also is this concept maybe connected to Judges 6:34 “The spirit of YHVH enveloped Gideon ( this word that is translated “enveloped” is the Hebrew word “lavshah” which when you take this word back to the Hebrew pictograph means “to put on as a piece of clothing).” ??? This word lavshah is also found in 1 Chron. 12:19 and 2 Chron. 24:20. It seems that Gideon was like a piece of clothing that the Spirit of YHVH put on???? Could this concept also be connected to the breath of life (the Hebrew word here is “neshamah”) that YHVH breathed into Adam in Gen. 2: 7. YHVH formed the body from the dust of the ground which sounds like a container for the neshamah ??? Would sure like your insight of these concepts listed above. I have more questions than answers:) Thank you.
We have to understand WHAT Yehovah is, before we can understand WHO He is and what it is that Paul is really saying.
God is a Spirit”, John 4:24. “Now the Lord is that Spirit”, 2 Corinthians 3:17. “There is ONE body, and ONE SPIRIT, even as you are called in ONE hope of your calling. ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and FATHER OF ALL, who is above all, and THROUGH all, and IN YOU all.” Ephesians 4:4.
Yes, the Spirit of Yehovah CLOTHED Himself with Gideon! This is a foreshadow of Yehovah putting on flesh as the man Yeshua (Yehovah Yoshia – Yehoshua). Its what Yeshua was trying to teach Nichodemus, “”you must be BORN again”…in another place, “not of perishable SEED, but imperishable SEED”.
Yeshua was “the first among many brethren”. Those who believe have been born of the Spirit – conceived of imperishable seed. This is how “Paul” (Saul) was going to be with the Lord. There is a Psalm that says “Do the dead praise you from the grave?”, and in another place it says “the dead know nothing”. The one that was taken to the bosom of Abraham was carried in and handed over dead.
If the Spirit has clothed Himself with your flesh, you no longer exist. “It is no longer I who live, but YESHUA who lives in me”. When you have been born again, you understand that you “have been bought with a price” and YOU no longer exist. Here’s the problem: most people are still thinking of themselves so they cannot see how it is possible for Saul to say what he did. “No one has ascended to the Heaven but the One who descended from Heaven”. The Spirit within you returns to Heaven, not “you”. There will be a resurrection and a new body. A new heaven and a new earth. The old is gone… Completely gone. His Spirit will be in all. All will be ONE.
Hi, Avigayil, have you written here before? If not, its great to see you!
I know that the New Age takes a lot from the Eastern philosophy that teaches we are supposed to strive to reach Nirvana, where we ‘lose’ ourselves in the One consciousness (someone correct me if I didn’t get that quite right). In this view, I take it to mean that I lose my individuality when I am connected with others.
Skip teaches, if I understand him correctly, that we are not even individuals without others (community) reflecting who we are, and that there is no such thing as a me, myself or I without others. In other words, the more I am connected, the more ‘me’ I get, the inference being that it is only when I am completely restored to connection (function) with all that I get to become fully myself. “Christ in me”, as Paul says. then, would mean that restoration of connection; but that restoration – in opposition to the teaching of the East as well as modern mysticism – makes me MORE me, and even completely me. Without Christ, not only can I do nothing, I don’t even exist, which is pretty much opposite to the popular New Age teaching (I don’t know if you subscribe to it or not). The complete individual, then, is one who is completely connected. Christ is the most individual of all because He is the most connected. He does not ‘lose’ His identity in that connection, however; He becomes fully Himself through that Body, BUT, so do we. Halleluah!
Shalom. Its lovely to hear from you!
Love in Christ,
Laurita
Could it be this: Paul is talking about how we live. Do we live by faith, or not? If we live by faith, if we believe what God says in His word, we have access to that spiritual dimension (2 Cor. 5:5), and even though our present bodies are temporary and dusty, we are still “present with the Lord” (v. 8). If we are very comfortable with living only for the moment, then we are indeed “at home in the body.” Everybody experiences this. Sometimes we walk closely attuned to the voice of God…sometimes the everyday little things of a material existence crowd in…but either way, we’re still trying to please Him (v. 9). We are new creations when we decide to follow God (rest of chapter 5), but we are still confronted with our obviously here-and-now bodies. But not to worry…God says that NOW He will help us (6:2). As long as we walk by faith (5:7), we are right there with the Lord. The change Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 15 will come (2 Cor. 5:1, 4), and that assurance–by faith–enables us to be “present with the Lord” now.
Comments, anyone?
Thomas, I concur with you!
2Cor 5:8 is an interesting Scripture used widely by mainstream Christian theologians as a proof text that believers go to heaven when they die. Problem is the Scriptures do not support this notion!
Yahshua Himself said very clearly in John 3:13 “and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down — the Son of Man who is in the heaven.” (YLT)
Really, I do not see any ambiguity is John 3:13!
With regard to the incident of the thief on the cross, the “go to heaven when you die” theologians again trim the theological jig saw pieces to suit their preconceived notions. Take note that Luke records that the repentant thief first said to Yahshua:
“Jesus, remember me WHEN YOU COME IN YOUR KINGDOM” (Luke 23:42) RSV
The repentant thief knew his reconnect with his Redeemer would be at time of the establishment of His Kingdom!
Then Yahshua responded:
“Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)
Now I will admit that most translators locate the comma before “today” to suit their purposes but that makes no sense as the Scriptural record clearly shows that Yahshua Himself was dead in the grave until His resurrection a few days later and did not ascend to present Himself to the Father until the feast of Bikkurim. So it could not possibly mean that Yahshua meant that exact day in His response!
Skip quoted Grundmann and the quote illustrates this origin of the “go to heaven when you die” notion. Quoting Grundmann: “The idea that the life of man is a sojourn and that his true home is in heaven is found in Hellenistic philosophy.” The idea certainly did not originate in the Tanakh or the NT!
The simple bottom line in this theology is all of humanity will follow the pattern of Yahshua as He is the “pioneer ” of our salvation. (Heb.2:10) As Laurita Hayes pointed out earlier, we all come up in a resurrection like He did! If I remember correctly, Skip debunked this notion of separation of soul and body as being another Hellenistic piece of junk in earlier blogs. Paul taught the resurrection of the “body” to a glorified spiritual state. (1Cor.15), (1Thess. 4) as does John in Rev.20. Let’s STOP believing the doctrines and deceptions of demons! Does not this notion of going to heaven in the here and now distract from the glorious Kingdom of Messiah which Scripture clearly shows will be here on earth? I think so. The notion of going to heaven suits HaSatan’s purposes!
Part of the problem understanding what Paul is saying here is probably that most of us are not as spiritual and kingdom oriented as we should be. (I confess to being as guilty as anyone else!). Most of us probably remember the song: “everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die”! We are overly in love with life in this age! In his spiritual maturity, and in the hell of persecutions that he was going through, Paul was well ready to come into the peace and joy he knew awaited him in the kingdom. He had had his fill of this age!
Paul wrote to the Romans:
“but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly, AS WE WAIT for adoption as sons, the redemption of OUR BODIES.” (Rom.8:22-23)
John wrote, quoting Yahshua:
“Not that anyone has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.” (John 6:46)
WHAT – you mean that Noah, Abraham and Moses and David are NOT up in heaven? ?
David wrote in Psalms:
“The heavens are YHVH’S heavens,
But the earth He has given to the sons of men.
THE DEAD DO NOT PRAISE YHVH, NOR DO ANY THAT GO DOWN INTO SILENCE.” (Psalm 115:16-16)RSV
Emphasis mine
It seems to me that the thief on the cross had a better understanding of the Father’s salvation chronology than many in mainstream Christianity and even in the Messianic community.
Shalom
Thanks for the in-depth analysis. It is so hard to sort out the traditions and beliefs handed down to us through the church from the meaning in the text as a paradigm generally influences the interpretation of the Bible. That is why it is all the more necessary to understand the context of the AUTHOR and his AUDIENCE. You have contributed to our understanding.
I completely agree that the notion we’re going to be going to heaven and floating around the clouds isn’t what the text says. His kingdom, as well as the Gan Eden(paradise) will be here on this physical earth. However, I also don’t think Yeshua just laid there in that tome rotting until He resurrected and was seen on the 1st day either. Even though we clearly don’t have very much information, nonetheless, I don’t believe it’s as simple as saying positively that when those that are His die, they merely lay rotting in the dirt.
And I also don’t see, as Tim said, we have enough information to positively declare the thief on the cross couldn’t have been with Yeshua “that very day”, regardless of where we want to stick the coma, he very well may have been.
How do we address Moses and Elijah sitting and speaking with Yeshua? Are we to think they were somehow resurrected? One thing for certain, they weren’t just dead bones in a grave some place.
There is an interesting recording on Skip’s site that Bob Gorelik did during the Israel trip that discusses the Hebraic view of the afterlife. He provides some interesting background that shed different light on some passages that seemingly have little to do with the afterlife.
I was reading about Polycarp today and found this page describing the pain of torture and then saw these same words and ideas of this passage. When you back up and read all of chapter 4 and 5 of 1 Cor., Paul is talking of persecution….it seems to fit in a very different way and this would explain the background and culture…. We always think that it means ‘dying and going to heaven’, maybe he was speaking of the ‘out of body’ experience of extreme pain and how the body goes into shock not feeling it – and how when suffering for/with Messiah – he is there with you???? Not explaining myself well – but I see a very different connection with this account and these verses now.
http://m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.iv.iv.ii.html