The Trinity: Delegation
“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” John 20:23 NASB
APOLOGY: Yesterday there was no TW posted, principally due to the fact that by the time I realized that it wasn’t going out, I was on an airplane from Missouri back to Orlando. So nothing was sent. We start today with what should have been yesterday. Sorry.
Have been forgiven – One of the fundamental rules of exegesis is that the text may not be interpreted in a way that violates its plain meaning. In other words, the Pashat rules the rest. Whatever the text says in its ordinary, surface meaning cannot be ignored, subverted or rearranged in subsequent analysis. If the text says, “Honor the Sabbath,” it means honor the seventh day of the week. It does not mean, and cannot be made to mean “Honor the first day of the week” (or the second, fourth, fifth, etc.). Interpreting the text so that it no longer means what it says is not exegesis. It is eisegesis, that is, importing into the text a meaning from outside the text. Sunday is not Sabbath no matter what you might think or have been taught. You can worship on Sunday if you like, but you will not be honoring the Sabbath.
What is the plain meaning of this text from John?
First we must understand that Yeshua didn’t speak Greek to these men. He spoke Hebrew and in Hebrew this sentence contains two idioms dealing with the role of the rabbi in a fellowship community. To forgive sins or to retain sins is about exercising the power of binding decisions on the behavior of the community. This is halacha and it’s what a rabbi does. If someone in the community comes to the rabbi with a question about how to act in a certain situation not covered directly by Torah, then the rabbi makes a determination based on Torah concerning the proper behavior. The rabbi can excuse some behavior as not violating Torah or he can include behaviors as violations of Torah. Paul does this all the time in his letters. Some question comes up about a particular practice. Paul determines whether or not such a practice should be condoned or excused. Examples abound: wearing certain clothing, issues about meat and idols, practices that appear to have pagan origins (like speaking in tongues), the orderliness of worship, even marriage questions. The point of this text in John is that Yeshua delegates this authority to his disciples. They are to take his place as the ones who determine proper behavior in the communities they serve.
Why is this relevant to the question of the Trinity? Because it demonstrates the biblical principle of delegated authority. Now consider what Yeshua said about his authority. “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner” (John 5:19). Doesn’t Yeshua Himself say that His authority is delegated by another? Just as He passed authority to His disciples, so the Father passed authority to Him. But the one who receives the authority is not in the same position as the one who grants it. The authority belongs to the one who grants it and is loaned to the one who receives it. It makes no sense at all to grant authority to oneself. If this is true, then how can Trinitarians claim that Yeshua is the same being as the Father? Can the Father grant authority to His equal in essences, the Son? Does that make any sense at all? If the Son and the Father share the same being (essence), then in what way are we to understand Yeshua claiming that He does nothing except what the Father grants Him to do?
You object. “But this only means that He has authority granted to Him in His human nature, not His divine nature.” But that’s the problem. In order to posit this explanation, you must already accept the doctrine of the two natures of Yeshua and nothing in the text says that. In other words, you have to read the text according to the doctrine in order to claim that it supports the doctrine. On its plain meaning, Yeshua is like anyone else who is given authority by another. He is dependent on that authority and subservient to it.
Try a few more “Trinity” verses. Try reading them for what they actually say, not what reading them according to what the doctrine teaches you. See if the plain meaning of the text makes sense without Trinitarian glasses.
Topical Index: Trinity, authority, delegation, John 5:19, John 20:23
Hi Skip,
During this study, could you maybe try and define or explain the Spirit of God (Ruach HaKodesh).
Not sure if I’m correct, but :
My understanding is that the Spirit of God is in fact His character, which is simply all the commandments.
When you do His commandments, His Spirit is apon you.
His Spirit also has creative abilities – He created everyting.
Thank you
Help!!! this very topic is one that I am screwed up on. Coming out of the church I now question everything that I thought I knew, the Trinity being one of these beliefs, but having met with Messianics who are now telling me that Abba is the greater and Yeshua the lesser. Please steer me in the right direction with teaching that will NOT be confusing. Thank you. Lynn.
So, essentially, Arius was right.
Don’t be too quick to decide. There is a lot more to look at.
What about Matthew ch28 v18? Surely Jeshua is then co equal with Father in His authority. (the text says In Heaven AND Earth!)
Wait a day or two.
Like always, I’m even more curious now about this subject. I’ve always found the idea of the Trinity a bit odd, but I could say that about a lot of Theological ideas I’ve heard growing up. That is what I love about TW. It always challenges me to dig. I’m very interested in your quote about how speaking in tongues came from pagan origins. I’m very familiar with speaking in tongues, but I’ve not heard that before and am extremely interested in knowing more about it. Can you point me to where I can learn more about this subject? Thanks!
-Ray
Then how do we deal with the Shema, There being one G-d that has always been the issue for a jew in regards to christianity. That and Torah.
Phyllis
Well Dr. Moen,
You first sparked quiet reflection in our home for about an hour THEN about 2 hours of deep discussion between my husband and me. Waiting for more!
Shalom!
Lora
I am a monotheistic follower of Y’shua. In other words, I am not a trinitarian. One thing I often notice about people who after study come to a non-trinitarian conclusion is that eventually they decide that Y’shua was not the Messiah. This is a terrible tragedy in my opinion. We do not study the role of Messiah to find out what is the role of the sent one, what is the purpose of being the Agent of God. We know very little about the role of a redeemer. So, because we are lazy, we just consign Y’shua to the basket of ‘things I used to believe in’. May we pursue the study of this topic with zeal and diligence! Thank you, Skip, for beginning to unfold this topic (wherever it may lead), and for encouraging us to stay the course!
Hi Skip, Just finished your conference at Sedalia, MO. I am so pleased that the Lord bought you into my life. I want to consider the paradigms that have been shaped my faith walk. Thank you for causing me to take a hard look at what I believe. Question; You are explaining the trinity misinformation, what about when Yeshua says to Phillip, ” If you see me, you have seen the Father”. Another is in John; 1 , “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God”.
Skip, just trying to wrap my head around this one (The Trinity : Delegation)
“The authority belongs to the one who grants it and is loaned to the one who receives it. It makes no sense at all to grant authority to oneself. If this is true, then how can Trinitarians claim that Yeshua is the same being as the Father? Can the Father grant authority to His equal in essences, the Son? Does that make any sense at all? If the Son and the Father share the same being (essence), then in what way are we to understand Yeshua claiming that He does nothing except what the Father grants Him to do?”
It says “how can the Trinitarians claim : that Yeshua is the same being as the Father”, when they (Trinitarians), claim three( x3) separate entities, namely Father Son & Holy Spirit, but we believe “ECHAD”?
Regards, Johan, RSA
This seems to be a useless discussion. Trinity is not a Hebrew word. It is a Greek term used to describe the incomprehensible nature of Hashem. Applying Hebraic form to its definition is implicitly out of context. Your comparing apples to oranges. There is no common Hebrew term to base your argument upon. That is why I argue for Sheva. Specifically I cite the usage of image and likeness in Gen 1:5 and 5:1. The duality of image and likeness is represented in chaistic form as covenant union between man and wife. The abstraction from Hebrew to Greek leads to an increased margin for translation error because the terms embody separate and distinct language and cultural usages. In point of fact the divine is incomprehensible. Therefore any translation is by default a second order act that mirrors the divine first act of revelation. It is by nature less than the original and therefore imperfect. The essence of what is being described is covenant but the Hebrew – brit – is considered inadequate because it is not the original term, only a Hebrew approximation. Sheva is the original implied Divine Revelation by Yeshua. Not in word, but in deed. All human words lack adequacy to express the revelation. When Sheva is accepted as the Hebrew indirect object of divine revelation then reason must embrace the usage of covenant commitment and obligation. The issue of dependance now lacks contrast because what exists is a parallel causative.
Skip,
Excellent opener on this Trinity debate!
Very clearly, as you point out, the Father and Son are separate personalities. Else, pray tell, who is sitting on the throne at the right hand of the Father. Else, how could the Father say:” this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” And on and on. At issue here is whether the Holy Spirit has a separate personality too! As you hinted today, so many Scriptures make so sense at all if we ascribe personality to the Holy Spirit!
And lets not forget what the Father is really doing. And this is mind boggling to me. God is in process of raising up sons and daughters with whom He is going to share His Glory as He did with Yahshua! Paul talks about this in several of his letters. Daniel the prophet and others did too! Here are a couple of the many Scriptures that I am alluding to:
“But we know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for ADOPTION AS SONS, the redemption of our bodies.”(Rom 8:22-23)
“Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky,and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.” (Dan.12:3)
Is our Father limiting Himself to a Trinity? No way, no way! Instead, He is in process of “bringing many sons to glory”, building a huge family of children with whom He wants to share eternity, starting right here on planet earth!
The very concept of a Trinity Godhead is bankrupt theology. It detracts from His Grand Scheme.
From what I understand, ECHAD has to do more with UNITY/HARMONY than with separate beings. Would love Skip’s input. Gaynor
From 1400 BCE to 395 CE, the worship of Apollo from the massive temple at I I discovered in my research, that Delphi, located just 40 miles north of Corinth, was the center of the prominent religion of the day. If I understand it correctly, Paul addressed his comments in 1Corinthians to many who were converts from this religion. Check out the Oracles of Delphi. When Paul wrote about speaking in tongues, he was not forbidding it, but establishing guidelines for its practice within the Body of Messiah as opposed to the pagan practices of the day. The passage on tongues in 1Corinthians 14 actually begins in chapter 12 when Paul says: Now concerning spiritual (gifts is not in the original language) and continues to outline proper spiritual activity through chapter 14.
There is NO useless discussion, unless, a person doesn’t truly want to enter into a discussion but only monopolizes the discussion and refuses to have an open mind to discuss something with another.
Hi Dot,
I appreciate your comment. I too have seem people get needlessly confused in the fog that discussions on the nature of God generate.
From before the foundation of the world God planned to have Messiah be the instrument through which His Plan of building a family of sons and daughters to God’s Glory will be implemented. This is why Yahshua said that He is: the Way, the Truth and the Life”. Yahshua is called our elder brother for good reason – He is the first born of many brethren! He came as “our near kinsman” to redeem humanity. You can find the law of redemption outlined in Leviticus chapter 25, verses 47-55.
Upon our redemption by Him, we become His bond slave and so He now owns us. This is part of the terms of our willingness to be freed by Him from the death penalty hanging over all of humanity. This is not the easy cheap “grace” we see promulgated by many! remember how Paul taught that: “we are bought with a price”.
There is a serious reason that Paul, and James and Peter identify themselves as “bond slaves of Messiah” in their writings. This is a little off the Trinity topic but as you can see from my other post it sure is related to what the Father is doing through His First born son.In any event,I was piqued to write by you asking about the role of Messiah in God’s scheme.
I have written up a study paper on bond slavery. If you would like a copy shoot me an email and I will send it to you. My email is: sjohnwalsh@gmail.com
Shalom
I think that Trinity theology was a Greek synthesis arising from two opposing positions.(i.e. The Hebrew notion of ONE God (echad) and Greek polytheism -a pantheon of gods/goddesses) Thus we ended up with three-in-one. Once you see that such doctrine is incomprehensible you are left with either one single god or a plurality of gods. The latter group includes folks who believe in two Yahwehs (one greater and one lesser). However you may decide as I did that the God of Israel is unique and singular. It helped to realize that the term “Son of God” NEVER means deity in Hebraic thought but ALWAYS means deity in Greek paganism…if you don’t believe me try a Google search for the following four words “Greek son of god” and see what you get..a tsunami of demigods, gods, goddesses…
Taking the Hebrew fork in the road leads one to believe that Jesus/Yeshua NEVER claimed to be God at all. The gospels and early apostolic ministry proclaims Him as MESSIAH not God. So then who is He? In fact in John that is exactly the question the Pharisees ask “Who are You?”
If Yeshua is not Creator then when does He come into existence? More fork(s) in the road. Some favor pre-existence, that Jesus predates creation itself. There are groups that believe that Jesus was an angel (in fact the Angel of the Lord) although Hebrews 1 seems to imply that Jesus only was revealed after all the prophets had served. Personally I believe that Father God YHWH is the Author with complete pre-knowledge of plot. The Jews believe that 7 things existed before creation. These include Torah, Israel and Messiah. Now clearly Israel as a nation did not exist physically before creation. It was the IDEA. I am of the opinion the same holds for Mashiach. He has always been in the plan of Father. In the fullness of time He was born of a woman and entered history as the “second Adam” the righteous one who exclusively kept Father’s commandments. The verses that suggest that Jesus created (and holds together) the universe are based on little Greek words like “dia , eis, en” with their multiple meanings based on the paradigm one applies. I’m sure Skip is an expert in all of this!!!
Yeshua came as Messiah of Israel and the world! He died and Father YHWH raised Him from the grave, exalted Him high above everything and seated Him at the right hand of YHWH. Because of His faithfulness, we can be joint heirs with him in all that Father has planned. That is the gospel. The King is coming soon to claim His kingdom, soon I pray!!!
Is there any Biblical prove that God punished the gentile nations for breaking the Sabbath? If not, why should non Jews keep the Sabbath if it was only required of Israel?
It’s One Law for the native born Israelite and for the gentile (Ex. 12:49). You’re either in covenant, or not. In submitting your life to Yeshua (Jesus) you identify with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and are grafted in to Israel. Israel’s instructions (i.e. the Torah) are your instructions! It’s doctrine that tells us that God holds Judah to one standard and the rest of His people to another. I am sure Dr. Moen has lots of posts that will be helpful in answering your question!
Skip:
Really missed your words yesterday. In your preface today you wrote, “We start today with what should have been yesterday.”
I know it was part of the apology but those words are profound considering this message.
To the other folks who read TW: try not to read defensively. The gospel is not at risk here, just our current understanding of doctrine.
Skip, a technical software question.
In the response section of TW, it used to be that we could respond to a particular post when we hit “reply” beneath the original post and our response would appear right there. Now all responses float right to the bottom causing a loss of connect with the original post. Was this a change you made?
Answer to Ernest Fink
Ernest, you raise an interesting question on who is required to keep Shabbat.
Paul tells us in Romans 3:20 that “through the Law (Torah) comes knowledge of sin.”
Anyone who is ignorant of the 4th Commandment, or who has been deceived by being told: “the Law was done away” or replaced by Sunday observance clearly will not be judged for something they are not aware of. That is most of humanity today.
The desire to honor God by keeping His Shabbat time holy comes from God through the agency of His Holy Spirit. See John 6:44. Though the technical aspect of understanding Shabbat can obviously be grasped by almost anyone, few are moved to celebrate it and to enjoy its blessings at this time. Sad to say many – including Jews, in their carnal minds see Shabbat keeping as a burden and inconvenience to their lives.
On the other hand, I know of thousands who have put their very lives on the line to keep Shabbat in extremely hostile environments such as China and Burma. No preacher or rabbi came and taught them initially. They somehow got their hands on a Bible and started reading and God’s Spirit showed them Shabbat. Then of course some of them became teachers and spread the Word.
I think that we can safely say that this is not “God’s world” or age! So He is merciful and patient with those who in their life circumstances struggle with possibly losing a job or whatever to keep Shabbat. The challenge is particularly acute in areas such as as Africa where many still work a five and a half or six day week. But God hears the prayers of the righteous and works things out over time. Samuel the prophet told us “God honors those who honor Him”, though He may let us be tested on the issue of Shabbat too! But nobody need to foolishly quit a job and leave their family go wanting for rent or food or whatever.
Bottom line: God only holds us responsible for what He has revealed to us. But the age of ignorance and deception is coming to an end soon, as I see it, and all of humanity will be blessed with keeping Shabbat during the reign of Messiah! See Zachariah chapter 14 for the judgment Messiah will pronounce on those who would profane any of His Festivals!
Shalom
I find Dr Michael Heiser’s work very interesting.
See for example here: http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DivineCouncilLBD.pdf
If he is right, then John interpreted Yeshua as the vice regent which is the head of the divine council which is non other then HaShem Himself.
The vice regent had delegated authority because he is an angel. [The angel of HaShem, the angel of the Presence etc]
The paper I linked to, shows Dr Heiser’s view of Yeshua’s quote of Ps 82.
Alan Segal shows many texts in his work “Two Powers in Heaven” where there seem to be two forms of HaShem if you will. For example many Jews interpreted (Gen 19:24 ESV) “Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.” as two forms, since the first “Lord” refers to the angel and the second the the Lord in heaven.
Daniel Boyarin argues that this view was not deemed to be a heresy [it was still monotheistic] until the time of Justin Martyr. – See his papers “Beyond Judaisms: Metatron and the Divine Polymorphy of Ancient Judaism” and “Justin Martyr Invents Judaism.”
When I combine this research I think that Michael Heiser is right that Yeshua saw Himself as the Vice Regent and therefore He equated Himself with HaShem.
Brother, I was not asking about the role of Messiah, which I have studied for over thirty years (and still have lots to learn no doubt), but was noting that this is in general not studied or taught. Thanks for the kind offer, but I do not give out my email to people I do not know.
The issue of trinity is motivated by deeply held beliefs upon which people predicate their identity. By demonstrating contextually that trinity and unitary interpretations suffer a loss of contrast many will simply ignore the argument. Yet the inherent contradiction exists between Paul’s theology in Hebrews and Skip Moen’s argument of dependance. To reconcile the difference one must infer that the Word as posited by both John and Paul was gifted with equality to the Father as parallel causes. Hashem exists perfectly is His Word so that nothing is lacking. What have then is a relationship where the Word submits itself to the Father – emptying itself and becoming a slave and accepting death. Trinity becomes a matter of revealed perspective. Hashem expresses Himself in Covenant form. The unity of person that Hashem embodies sine qua is therefore the covenant he makes because Hashem is an act not a substance. He is eternal and uncreated, i.e. has no body. The use of the term substance is therefore a euphemism that expresses human nature as an image of the divine being ergo act.
I hope you are right, but I fear people will simply ignore what challenges deeply held beliefs. I argue the trinity and unitary beliefs suffer from a loss of contrast – that they are ultimately the same. But because this is a belief system that people predicated their identity on many will not accept. Even when it is logical to do so. I responded to my original post with a follow up reply but by saying it is useless I do not imply a lack of importance. Merely efficacy. Many will not be convinced.
On its plain meaning, Yeshua is like anyone else who is given authority by another. He is dependent on that authority and subservient to it.
Lu 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
At what point did He realize He was the Messiah?
Reminds me of John 1. Are YHVH’s words under the authority of the voice that spoke them? Are YHVH’s words different in essence from YHVH Himself?