The Trinity So Far
OK, so we have raised a lot of questions and, from the comments posted, caused a lot of people to think, get upset, get confused, get frustrated, wonder, be relieved, or something other than “so what”. Ā But where does this leave us?Ā Here’s my summary so far (and we aren’t done yet, but we do need a break).
1. Ā In my view, the greatest confusion about examining this doctrine is our difficulty in seeing the difference between “divine” and “God.” Ā Most of the time we seem to think that if Yeshua isn’t “God” as defined by YHVH of the Tanakh, then he isn’t divine and can’t be the Messiah. Ā But this is a semantic problem. Ā The term for “divine” includes much more than just the single entity (being) “God.” Ā In the Tanakh (and even in Yeshua’s citation of the Tanakh) the term is applied to men, kings, angelic beings, etc. Ā No one seems to have a problem with this. Ā So, when we say, “The idea of the Trinity seems mistaken,” we do not imply that Yeshua isn’t divine. Ā We are merely stating that Yeshua is not identical to YHVH. Ā Perhaps our understanding of “divine” is distorted by the doctrine.
2. Ā The Trinitarian doctrine is quite explicit about the relationship between “persons” and “being” in the Godhead. Ā It states that all three “persons” are equally “God.” Ā It attempts to explain the humanity of Yeshua and this apparent contradiction with the “equality” of the persons in the Godhead by claiming that Yeshua is “fully God and fully Man” at one and the same time. Ā But this seems not only incomprehensible but also completely paradigm dependent on the Greek idea of “person.” Ā We must admit that even if we drawn inferences about this from Scripture, there is no explicit statement of this doctrine in Scripture itself. Ā That should tell us something.
3. Ā The fact that Scripture is quite clear about essentials such as repentance, Torah observance, grace, holiness, the goodness of God, judgment, wrath to come, God as creator and many other things makes me wonder why – if the Trinity is an essential doctrine of the faith – it isn’t just as clear as these other things. Ā And since Jews have had the Tanakh for 2000 years longer than Christians have had the apostolic writings, I am even more puzzled why they didn’t see this “essential” doctrine long before 487 AD.
4. Ā NONE OF THIS in any way questions the character, mission or glorification of the Messiah. Ā He has been given all authority. Ā He did come to redeem the universe. Ā He did die on the cross. Ā He is the atonement needed to restore relationship with the Father. Ā He will come again. Ā He is the Son of the Most High. Ā The only thing that this study questions is this: Ā Is Yeshua, the Messiah, exactly equal in essential being with YHVH?
5. Ā NONE OF THIS questions the role Yeshua plays in atonement, creation, judgment and lordship. Ā I am quite convinced that these ideas are as clear as they could be. Ā But this is not the same as what the Trinity claims.
6. Ā I believe that God makes Himself known to us in His words. Ā Of course, there are things that He keeps hidden and things that are mysteries we can’t understand. Ā But I am quite sure that what I MUST KNOW He carefully reveals. Ā And that makes me question a doctrine that took 400 years and a Greek philosophy to figure out.
7. Ā When we examine doctrines like the Trinity, we have to do it one verse at a time and then relate this to all the verses. Ā That means it is a SLOW process not amenable to quick answers. Ā We have to tear these apart in order to see how they were used in this doctrine. Ā Sometimes what we find doesn’t seem like it can ever be reconstructed, but this is a LONG process. Ā It took me 10 years to see that the Greek idea of time wasn’t to be found in the Hebrew worldview. Ā So my advice is “Relax.” Ā God is still God. Ā Yeshua is still the Messiah. Ā You are still loved by Him. Ā It’s OK.
8. Ā It seems to me that the threat, if there even is one, is this: Ā Most of us who grew up in the Christian faith have believed all our lives that Jesus is God. Ā That idea is as solidly Christian as the idea that Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins. Ā When we raise questions about this, the whole emphasis of Jesus as God comes into play. Ā We get scared that maybe if this isn’t exactly the way we thought then somehow everything else is wrong too. Ā We don’t have that unshakeable relationship with the Father because Jesus has been front and center of everything. Ā So we think that questioning the Trinity is actually questioning God. Ā And we are afraid. Ā Our Christian “God” is Jesus. Ā So, asking questions about the Trinity is really like asking questions about God Himself. Ā We forget that the Father is still the Father and He is the one who sent the Son in the first place.
9. Finally, a few questions are good to have. Ā I’m not losing my faith over this. Ā Nor my appreciation for Yeshua HaMashiach. Ā But I am beginning to wonder how much of what I believe is the result of what my religious environment taught me rather than what Scripture (without translation bias) actually teaches.
“We are merely stating that Yeshua is not identical to YHVH.”
Not identical in what way? Ontologically? Christian theologians already draw a distinction between the economical Trinity and the ontological Trinity. One has to do with activity (i.e. what each person does) while the other has to do be ‘being’. Thus the question, it seems to me, is this one: Is Yeshua uncreated being or not? Or did he have a beginning? Answering that issue might help focus the discussion.
Perhaps it would be well to consider that God (Yahweh) can exist in any form (or multiple forms at the same time) He wishes.
Consider the Jewish Kabbalah and the 10 seferot or the 10 manifestations of God. The main problem with the Christian “trinity” doctrine is that is implies that God is 3 separate PERSONS, instead of 3 separate MANIFESTATIONS of the SAME God. In fact, Jesus/Yeshua was the only PERSON/human manifestation of God that we know of.
Understanding that Deut. 6:4 states that God is ECHAD (translated as ONE) and can also mean UNITY or UNIFIED. Jesus/Yeshua was God in human form and in appearing to us in that form, He limited Himself (in THAT form only) to what was possible for any of us. He came in that form to accomplish our release from the bondage of sin, and to show us how to walk in a way that insures fellowship with our Holy Father. When we are born again by God’s Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodsh), we are indwelt by the Spirit of God. We needn’t be caught up in fruitless debates, but to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us into all TRUTH (EMET) and we will be fine.
We can consider God manifested in any form He chooses, but this is not what Trinitarian doctrine claims. The doctrine does not deny the possibility of manifestations, but it asserts that the “essential” nature of every “person” in the Godhead is identical. In fact, the Church eventually rejected the idea that God “manifested” himself in human form in Yeshua. We will have more to say about this soon.
My impression from what you have posted thus far is this, Yeshua shows us what being, ‘man’ is suppose to look like. If that is true, then He showed us what Gen 1:26 actually means (Let us make man in our image, after our likeness). When someone accomplishes that daily, human and God are indistinguishable because we “completed” our purpose which is to become, “man” ie salvation which is the meaning of Yeshua’s name. With that said, this makes it a lot easier to defend the idea that, “God is not a man”, (Numbers 23:19). In summary, He showed us what salvation actually is, which is becoming man by exulting Exodus 34:6-7 perfectly because the way to get there is by fulfilling the Torah perfectly. If that is true, then I find it liberating, not scary. It means that it’s not out of reach and that YHWH isn’t the only one who can do it and when you actually become, “man” you are almost indistinguishable from YHWH, because Yehsua’s vertical relationship was so good He overcame the horizontal ones. Am I getting hot or is this I’m in another field?
Yeshua does show us what it means to be truly human – a “man” in biblical terms. But that is a bit sideways to the discussion right now. The issue we are debating is the Christian claim that Yeshua is in essence exactly the same as YHWH, the Father, that he is fully God and fully Man at the same time even if he fulfills a different role in his human form. We will have more to say about this. Your insight is also correct. He does show us what it means to fulfill the purpose of being human and this is important. IT just isn’t the same as the Trinitarian claim.
This is what my husband and I have been trying to tell people for years (those who will allow the conversation, and those are few). Most Christians are busy scurrying around collecting firewood and matches, ready to light us up for our perceived heresy. God bless you for your honest examination of this topic!
I used to get angry at people for their supposed āheresies.ā Now I realize that what we once called beliefs are now heresies and vice versa. I proudly call myself a āhereticā because, if Iām honest with myself, Iāll admit to having been on the other side of that fence. Iām awfully glad to serve the God of Stupendous Patience.
Thank you for the summary of the discussion about the “Trinity”. It is most helpful. Would you please explain the concept behind the word “divine”. As far as I can tell the only time the KJ uses divine is in the relationship with divining and witchcraft. ?????
I use other Bible translations but use KJ to find the Strong’s number for further research.
The semantic domain of the Greek and Hebrew words for “divine” is crucial to this discussion since mingling these words with other concepts often leads to misunderstanding. We will have to elaborate this, but right now I have to speak to 800 students in El Salvador. Please be patient. It will take a few days.
I have been following this discussion from a distance. It has raised questions and challenged. I honestly haven’t made an opinion one way or another, simply because not all of my questions have been addressed – or even asked. I appreciate Skip’s comments that this is a LONG process. With this in mind, let me say that I don’t agree with some of your statements…
“We neednāt be caught up in fruitless debates, but to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us into all TRUTH (EMET) and we will be fine.”
2 points to consider:
1) I don’t necessarily know that you were refering to this series of articles and discussions, but I don’t believe this is a fruitless debate. I don’t think that YHVH is ever troubled by our questions – provided they are accompanied with a heart that truely wants to know and not one that just wants to make trouble. In fact, it is the lack of questions that has led to so many deviations from Scripture in the last 4000 years
2) Reliance on the Holy Spirit to guide you into truth is not enough. Before anyone strings me out for this, let me explain. At Shavuot – the Feast of Weeks – we celebrate 2 things. Not just the giving of the Spirit, but the giving of the Torah. At the first Shavuot on the mountain 4000 years ago and at the renewal of Shavuot in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, both were distincly marked with the giving of Torah and Spirit. The Spirit will only lead us into truth when we are seeking truth in Scripture. Torah brings Spirit into balance in our lives and Spirit balances Torah.
I am not convinced that Yeshua is not YHVH. But I am open to asking the question. I also ask it VERY cautiously. For now I will continue to watch and wait and see where this all goes.
thanks for your comment on the need for Torah and Spirit. I have written a lot about the tendency and danger of thinking that “all we need is the Spirit.” If that were true, there would be no disagreement among the followers of YHWH.
I am very grateful for this line of exploration. I am convinced that God is not threatened or offended by honest questions.
About ten years after I began to question Him about some things that were obvious to me, did Skip begin to post some hints about them. Later he wrote “Guardian Angel” and it seemed that I had not been alone in my questioning. That book contains many ideas that are simply not in line with what I was taught all my life, however apparent they seemed to me.
Now I am listening to the audio files of the Israel 2014 trip. More questions answered. Forcing me to reconsider why I believe what I do helps me to see how I can more fully align my living with the instructions for life.
Shabbat Shalom! “The rest is up to you!” š
Right right. I think that the whole going into the desert and getting tempted by the adversary kinda debunks the whole trinity claim in general. If Hasatan has to get authority to “do this thing” here on earth then it would mean that, Hasatan had to go up to God and say, “I want to tempt you God down on earth…. even though you have authority over me and I’ll just pretend I don’t know it’s you…” It would seem like an utter waste of time for Hasatan, since he knows that YHWH knows the Torah and is perfect. Furthermore my impression of the adversary to provide us opportunities to draw us closer to God by repenting and showing our faith with hardship and circumstances – to give us the means of refining. He’s the knife, God is the surgeon. So it’s one of those makes zero sense when you look at it in those regards and Yeshua would HAVE to be something other then God.
I guess what I was alluding to was that to be Messiah you don’t have to be God. If you are Messiah chances are you will look like God, but you’re not. We probably picked up someplace that Messiah and God have to be the same (I’m guessing you know where that is already). But my impression was that other contenders of being Messiah didn’t make the claim they were God nor did people think they had to be, they just thought they were getting used by God.
Good points.
Messiah was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:20) but He emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.(Philippians 2:7-8). Messiah (as God) emptying himself into the form of man means just that….He emptied himself. What of exactly? Perhaps he emptied himself of his omniscience.
Your explanation follows the usual Christian reading of the text. Unfortunately, it overlooks the logical, theological, historical and linguistic evidence to the contrary. Perhaps you would like to attend this weekend’s seminar on the subject.
I’ve just returned from Europe tired from traveling,
but fresh in mind and spirit.
Your on-going look today at the Trinity has merit from
the vantage point of what the Scriptures tell us, but admittedly
the Scriptures don’t tell us everything — by God’s design.
God reserves mystery as an essential component for all that He is,
and all that He has for us to know. Scripture clearly is His informed
love letter to us providing us with His insight about Himself, ourselves, and His
purposes for us while we occupy this glorious planet. His Word tells us what we
need to know now. No more; no less.
But it’s His presence within us that I find most revealing and overwhelming!
His Spirit stretches us and opens us far beyond our normal human limits,
and constantly invites us to see and experience Him and His divine nature
in the implausibly simple and mundane moments that are also paradoxically
and expansively filled with Himself and His wonder. He’s in everything!
How I love Him! How I love His Word! And how I love His presence, too!
How can you possibly separate them?
Hi Skip,
Sorry, but I seem to be missing the boat. It is one thing to say that Jesus
Thought he was the Messiah, but there is no textual evidence in the Bible
That proves he was as far as I know
And it seems to me that all the Trinitarian nonsense came from the Talmud
And the Jewish priests who were aligned with Roman aristocracy
In the creation of the Catholic Church and crucifixion of Jesus
In the Talmud we find Trinitarian concepts such as Omniscience, Omnipotence, and
Omnipresence
And the Messiah did not come to earth to be crucified and spat upon by fools
As you know š
Please provide references for the Talmud. That would be a big help. As for the attributes you mention, they didn’t directly come from the Talmud. They came from the incorporation of Greek philosophy into Christian church fathers and eventually theologians.
Hi Skip, It was such a blessing to meet you in Sedalia, MO last week-end! I saved all the trinity articles so far but had not read any yet. Now I feel ready after reading your comments today. I was brought up in Lutheranism and turned to Father and His Torah and the Tanach in 1998 because I questioned whether my beliefs were from the Bible or from church doctrine. So I did tshuva and have immersed myself in learning Torah and YHVH’s ways. It was difficult at first to put all my beliefs on the shelf, but I have tried to do that and through YHVH’s Word using your teachings and those of some other teachers of the God of Israel I am being shown truth. And bit by bit He is peeling off the baggage. The Scripture about “our father’s have inherited lies” has been enlightening. YHVH used my brother Morgan and his wife, my sister (in-law), Nita who had done tsuvah and started their journey with the Father. I appreciate your references to Luther from time to time; that helps me see and examine what was ingrained in me though extensive Lutheran schooling and catechism etc. YHVH is good in all He does. He is emunah–will never leave us or forsake us when we choose to follow His way. Blessings to you in San Juan (I hope I got that right–San Juan š
Hey Sandy, tell all the Kansas people it was good to see them again!!
Sandy š
YWHA Father, send His Son, who is so attuned and in line with the will of Father that they are but one, Yeshua states “I only do what the Father does”.
His will is the will of the Father, He counts nothing for his own life, other than to do the will of Him whom sent Him.
The Oneness is in the unity, “my prayer is that they may be one as we are one” Yeshua prayed.
Get on your knees to Father, but when you pray the Lords prayer, unless YOU BE WILLING TO REALLY DO HIS WILL for your life you are not at oneness, as Yeshua showed us the WAY.
Faith & Grace are gifts, but obedience He seeks, who is willing in these days to forsake ALL???
Today if you hear my VOICE!!!!
Now is the time for separation, separation for the dogma and religions that teach falsehoods.
” It seems to me that the threat, if there even is one, is this:……………………………………………….”
I’ve known for several years that this is a false doctrine but have not worried much about searching out why.
It is true that fear is the first thing that enters our hearts when what we’ve been taught comes into question. That’s especially true of a golden calf doctrine such as the Trinity.
After examining why I was so afraid several things became apparent.
1. I was not raised in the church so I was shocked to discover that my past life was utter deception leaving me determined never to be deceived again.
2. Once I was in, I was taught that I must have the right doctrines to be a real christian. (even thought that isn’t what saves us ???)
3. When I started reading the bible and discovered Sabbath I was stunned to discover I’d been deceived again and felt very betrayed.
4. I was angry having been lied to and no place else to go to learn the truth. (Especially not those blind Jews!)
5. I despaired even to the point of praying for death to relieve my torment.
6. My pride in my self perceived sophistication made it impossible to learn anything my calcified heart thought it already knew.
7. It is OK to be ignorant. That is what grace is for.
8. But my fear of man and of being deceived again, kept me from grabbing hold of what scripture was trying to teach me.
9. I need to trust God over man and let Him teach me even when I am persecuted for it by the church.
10. I was afraid to let go of the church because I didn’t know how I could do that and not dishonor my fathers and mothers who had brought me to Jesus
11. Father forgive them. They know not what they do.
12. The fig tree puts forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
Skip, something came out of someones mouth last night that sums up our dilemma with any of the doctrines we’ve been taught.
All christian theology looks back on the O.T. as a commentary on how to THINK upon the N.T.
When we began looking to the N.T. as a commentary that sheds light on how to KEEP the O.T., our understanding begins to raise up out of the valley of dry bones, and take on flesh. Then scripture can begin to breath life into us, and we are enabled to walk it out.
What I have learned while walking on this eternal path is that I will always need to learn more.
The most comforting and encouraging thing I’ve needed to understand and know in order to keep walking has been;
“I have been accepted in the beloved. I am my beloved’s and my beloved is mine. He will never leave me or forsake me.”
There is no need to be even a little bit afraid. Once we become His, He truly does cling to us like a dirt clod!
THANK YOU. I am sure this captures a lot of people who are stumbling along this path.
“9. Finally, a few questions are good to have. Iām not losing my faith over this. Nor my appreciation for Yeshua HaMashiach. But I am beginning to wonder how much of what I believe is the result of what my religious environment taught me rather than what Scripture (without translation bias) actually teaches.”
This sums up exactly how I’ve felt the last few years. I’ve been getting TW for over 2 years now and hadn’t really read the comments or commented myself until recently, but it’s good to see other comments. It makes me feel less alone in this quest that I’m on. This discussion is fantastic and fascinating and challenging and so much more. But it is also essential to growing. Even if everything you’ve been told by the various “Men of God” throughout your life has been true, what good is it to you to simply take their word for it. I know, as I’m sure everyone else on here does, that a lot of the theology being preached and taught in the majority of churches today is pretty far from the original texts. I’ve already discovered so many faults and flat out lies I’d been taught growing up that I’m willing to listen and study out ideas that are so traditional and taboo no one else will touch them. I’m thankful Skip started this. It’s those pillars of the church which are most traditional that should be looked at the hardest. Truth will be found the more you dig. To me, that is exciting. Can’t wait for what’s next.
“And we are afraid. Our Christian āGodā is Jesus. So, asking questions about the Trinity is really like asking questions about God Himself. We forget that the Father is still the Father and He is the one who sent the Son in the first place.”
Hehe, I do believe you’d nailed it here. Even in the “Lord’s Prayer” Yeshua teaches us to pray to the Father but how many Christians pray to Jesus? Man, I’ve never heard it said, “the Christian “God” is Jesus” but it’s so true! And that, all by itself, it extremely disorienting for people with regard to proper approach to YHVH – the Father, who is expressed in the NT as the Spirit (in my humble opinion).
My brother recently said, “It’s all about Jesus.” On the surface that sounds right, especially from a Christian perspective. But what is “it”? God (the Father) is the Head, is He not? (1 Cor. 11:3) And Yeshua obviously submits to Him (Lk. 22:42). Even at the end of time in the future Kingdom everything will be submitted to Messiah – EXCEPT the Father (1 Cor. 15:27-28). So it appears to me that it’s actually all about YHVH – always has been and always will be. This needn’t diminish the role of Yeshua but somehow and in some people’s minds, it does.
The Athanasian Creed is a famous and popular one among Christians to cite in their “We Believe” section on websites, church creeds, etc. It states very contradictorily, “in this Trinity…none is greater, or less than another.” [enter theological gyrations and gymnastics to make this work in spite of aforementioned Scriptures] “Well…Jesus was God but he wanted us all to see how humans are weak so when he said he didn’t want to die on the cross he didn’t really mean it.”
Um, hello? So if Jesus was God (the Father) then he was praying to himself and having a ridiculous facade of a disagreement for the purpose of identifying with humanity but he really can’t (a violation and contradiction of Heb. 4:14-16)? And how can a Trinitarian Jesus, who is the Father in flesh (being essentially the same) have two separate and opposing wills on the same subject at the same time?
Hmm. I don’t buy it.
I share with you a hearty “amen”, Ray.
Hi Skip,
With all due respect, most of what I learned about this stuff in the last 10+ years came from you.
And, as I recall, you recommended Everyman’s Talmud, by Abraham Cohen, for me to read when I was working at VeriSign years ago.
In the chapter called The Doctrine of God, the following key points are made,regarding his nature, in considerable detail:
– Existence
– Unity
– Incorporeality
– Omnipresence
– Omnipotence
– Omniscience
– Eternity
– Justice and Mercy
– FatherHood
– Holiness and Perfection
– The ineffable Name
When I said Trinity, I was thinking of the three O’s, which I learned from the Catholics
I tend to see a number of relationships between Judaism and Catholicism, but the worship of the Son as God is not one of them
Hope this helps
Mike
Yes, thanks.
Derek said it so well. Yeshua is the standard, the forerunner, the leader, the prototype Abba YHWH gave us so that we can know how to have a relationship with The Most High. Yeshua is the encouragement. By his life he’s saying to each of us, “Come on, you can live Torah too but if you at any time fail to live by the standards Abba set in place for us, my blood will cover your sin. Don’t quit. Get up and walk like me again!”
Yeshua also shows us our destiny. He was RAISED FROM THE DEAD!!! Hello!!! That’s not a small matter! He is the “FIRST BORN from the dead.” He shows us what will happen to us in the future, at our appointed time, “at the last trump”, when the dead will be raised and we “will be like him for we will see him as he is!” There’s some amazing stuff going on here, some deep revelations that we will miss if we don’t understand Yeshua’s role fully. He is called the second Adam for a reason. Yeshua is fixing the mess the first Adam made for all of us.The plan for that fix is stated in Genesis, right from the beginning. This the GOSPEL MESSAGE! We are to be like Yeshua who is LIKE God yet flesh. HALLELUYAH! All praise to the Father YHWH for all of His provisions and His deep love for humanity!!
He empowered Yeshua by the Ruach HaKodesh to live a perfect life. This does address the question of the trinity in that, if Yeshua is fully God and fully man, at the same time, then there’s a problem since God cannot be temped by sin, yet we’re told Yeshua was “tempted in all things, yet without sin”. Yeshua overcame sin. That’s what’s SO incredible about him! By his life he encourages us to do the same. Living a perfect life would be no problem for a man who is fully God. Where would there be any temptation? God knows all things and is fully good. Sin would have absolutely no power over him. Yeshua had times of weakness, as we see in the garden, when he was afraid. Yeshua called upon his Father for help to continue and his Father heard him.
Continuing with this understanding, When Yeshua was resurrected he said, “do not cling to me but tell the others that I am going to my Father and your father, to my God and to your God. So, the question is, does God have a God? The Father and Yeshua can’t possibly be the same being.
Messiah was hebrew. One god.
Nice research and points. It is also very thoughtful for you to clarify your position on many points for your readers….thank you Skip š
John 10: 22. And the Feast of Dedication occurred in Urishlim and it was winter. 23. And Y’shua was walking in the temple in the porch of Shleemon. 24. And the Yehudeans surrounded him and said to him, “How long will you hold our souls if you are the Mashiyach? Tell us openly.” 25. Y’shua answered and said to them, I have told you and you do not believe! And the works that I do in the Name of my Father they testify concerning me. 26. But you do not believe because you are not of my sheep, just as I have told you. 27. My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they come after me. 28. And I give to them life that is eternal and they will not perish and no man will ever snatch them from my hands. 29. For my Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no man is able to snatch them from the hands of my Father. 30. I and the Father are one. 31. And again the Yehudeans took up rocks to stone him. 32. Y’shua said to them, Many pleasing works from the presence of my Father I have shown you. For which of them do you stone me? 33. The Yehudeans said to him, “It is not because of the pleasing works that we stone you, rather because you do blaspheme and that while you are a Son of man you make yourself Elohim![1] 34. Y’shua said to them Is it not written in your Torah that “I have told you that you are Elohim.” 35. If those people he called Elohim because the Miltha of Elohim was with them and Scripture is not able to be broken 36. To him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world you say, “You blaspheme!” concerning that I had told you that “I am the Son of Elohim.” 37. Unless I do the works of my Father, do not believe me. 38. If, however, I do them even if you do not believe me, you believe the works that you may know and believe that my Father is in me[2] and I am in my Father. 39. And they were seeking again to seize him, but he escaped from their hands. (Aramaic English New Testament)
[1] Yeshua states that the Ruach of YHWH is within him, (Isaiah 11:1-2, Zechariah 12:10). He taught that while his nefesh would die, YHWH would reanimate both his neshama (human spirit/ruach) and nefesh (soul). Yeshua never claimed his nefesh was anything other than human and that as such, it would die.
[2] In Isaiah 22:20-25 a priestly father is named Hilkiah (my portion is YHWH) and his son is Eliakim (Elohim raises) which foreshadows Mashiyach whose “portion” is YHWH, and who is raised up by Elohim. Mashiyach is the first begotten of YHWH who suffers, then is raised up and then is given governance over all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples as foreshadowed in verses 21-22: “And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”
In terms of understanding what we clumsily refer to as ‘G-dhead’, we have to make a distinction between Mashiyach, which is a human office, but I am not saying that Yeshua wasn’t YHWH in the flesh in Gods nature, but I’m just saying that part of him is separate and side by side with his humanity. And the reason I can say that with such conviction is very simple because the text tells us this. Yeshua says that his nephesh [soul] is mortal, that it is troubled to the point of death, therefore, he is mortal. That YHWH doesn’t bleed and die on a cross, or the universe would stop running. And most importantly, Yeshua basically says, ‘not my will YHWH, but your will, my Father, be done.’ So there are two separate wills here. There is a human will – ‘if it’s possible let this cup pass from me’ – and there is a Divine will that is separate and side by side. It goes by/under another name you might be familiar with – Ruach haKodesh, the Holy Spirit, which is actually another title for YHWH the Father. So there’s not three entities here. It’s all YHWH manifesting in different ways. A way to get our head around this is that you have on the Divine side, think about how in Isaiah 53:1 it talks about “Who has the arm of YHWH been revealed to”. My arm is not separate from my body. My arm is not another man. My arm is not superior to my legs or my feet. It takes orders from my brain, from my mind. Three branches of the same tree, not three separate trees. Because if we take YHWH’s aspects and make them into separate divinities which is what I believe western Christianity does, because in the Greek New Testament it actually says “persapone” which means “persons”. The Aramaic doesn’t say that, it talks about occurrences of the one Divine nature. But if you talk about plural divine personalities, you have now committed idolatry and broken the first two commandments. So, I think we need to grasp the terms correctly and straight and have them rooted in the Semitic mind set that they were originally cast and not rely on English / Greek terms that can change at the drop of a hat, things like trinity and tri-unity which were never in the text and are inventions of the ‘church fathers’ as late as the fourth century.
YHWH is ein sof ××× ×”××£, or without end. He is an omnipresent infinite being as we read in 1 Kings 8:27, Psalm 25:6, 41:13, 90:2, 93:2, 103:17, 106:48 and Revelations 1:8. His infinite, all-present nature/divinty cannot be limited by this three person theory, and the Aramaic provides strong evidence for this with what is revealed in the Aramaic manuscripts. Yeshua, while fully divine in nature, cannot be “100% G-d” as the evangelical catchphrase goes, And i will piggyback once again on a comment i made to one of the earlier TW’s regarding this topic….. why do i say that ? It is because you can’t take an infinite being and put all of Him into a finite universe. It just doesn’t work. But understanding that Yeshua is the visible image of the invisible G-d from a Hebraic perspective lines up flawlessly.
shabbat shalom
What I am hoping from all this is that the Sovereignty of the One God is more firmly established and grounded in our hearts so that none of us can be led astray by sophistry or false representation. So help us, God.
I pray also that, along with that conviction, we are more firmly able to resist the pantheistic tendencies of this planet, that, sadly, seem to have gone nowhere at all, but are still with us. Now, not only are there so many of the same old gods from ancient times still enthralling the majority of the earth, we have on the scene a new and extremely bold manifestation of the seduction of the snake, wherein we have all been promised that we can be gods, too.
I now find myself absolutely surrounded by people in my life that believe some version of self godhood. And a whole lot of them are happily informing me that Christ is their example of how a human does it, and if He did it, then they can, too.
May none of us fall, is my prayer and deepest desire. May we not open the door to knowledge at any price, but seek to glorify the only true God, and Him only serve. Amen.
Very interesting writing, my question is what about the diety of Yeshua…John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Unless these Scriptures are mistranslated, it is clear that Yeshua is God.I am learning to question everything now adays!
However, I have learned so much from your writings!
Joy
It’s clear that Yeshua is God IN YOUR TRANSLATION. But as we have already commented, this requires a “rule” that allows the word WITHOUT the definite article to be translated as if it has the definite article. Otherwise the translation would be “and the word was A god” as is the USUAL way Greek handles nouns without articles. There is a comment about this in prior blogs.
BUT – and this is important – this does NOT mean that Yeshua (the Word) isn’t divine. It’s easy to get confused here. We think that if he isn’t GOD-YHVH then that means he isn’t divine, but this is NOT what the words say or mean. See Daniel Boyarin’s book. Christian Trinitarians create this false dilemma, but Scripture does recognize divine beings who are NOT YHVH. We have a long way to go on all this. SLOWLY (since that’s all I have time for).
John 1:6: Egeneto anthroĢpos, apestalmenos para theou, onoma autoĢĢ§ IoĢanneĢs
(be)came man, sent/commissioned by God, name to him John.
Applying the assertion that a noun without the Greek article preceding it must be indefinite, this verse would yield:
(be)came A man, commissioned by A god, name to him [was] A John.
Craig could it be that verses 1-5 are more about the anointing of the prophet John and have no relevance to Yeshua. Way I am asking is because it is only when we accept and reveal faith or obedience to the will of God that we get empowered to testify and reveal the power of God as He permits…
I’m not sure where your going with this line of thought, but I just don’t see how verses 1-5 pertain to John (whether the writer or the Baptizer).
Isaiah 45. Is the example. God calls then empowers and kings bow. Chains are broken. Yeshua is the saving of the lost sheep. John was annointed as the prophet saying straighten the ways. The way is Yeshua or salvation through redemption, forgiveness and empowerment. What did Yeshua do. Heal. Stop the devil. Give sight back. Feed and simple enough even clothed and set captives free. Ye that are burdened come to me and I will give you rest for your soul.
Wait was that not what John was teaching make straight. Was it not Solomon that said when we know God in all our ways then God will level our paths and straighten our ways. Now those that accept this are called sons and daughters of God… Salvation in flesh. Word takes on flesh. Believer becomes example unto others. This example is Lord and King in life as this empowerment controls and guides what and how we do things.
Here is my thought. Many testify or proclaim the light as they see it. When we learn to appreciate that God dwells amongst us, controls and sanctifies us, this light or understanding is God’s manifestation in our life. Those that let this light radiate through them are salvation unto others. John said hmself he is not salvation. Salvation manifests amongst the audience and he cannot restrict the way the saved will walk… Tie shoe laces.
Salvation is not those that preach and teach as God did not anoint us to do that, he said be light dwell in the light and He will add those He saves…
What saved the message or the acceptance of the light. In this light is life and the light is God.
What happens when we surrender unto God. We do. We see. We eat. We are clothed through righteous deeds. We are set free from our burden and captivity.
Now this living is salvation.
The rest could be figurative speech that we do not understand the meaning of as the original audience, we think of something beyond our understanding when in fact it is God in our lives tasking and guiding us towards his next purpose with our lives.
Was there a man Yeshua. Probably yet no physical proof of this… Was he born out of wedlock possibly. That individual is not what needs to be made lord and king. What is spirit is spirit. What is earth is earth. Flesh is flesh. Spirit is not beyond our insight. Spirit is reference to the will of God. Holy Spirit is reference to the will of God influencing us, how we do not know yet it happens.
Reading John 1 as if introducing something new to the audience I doubt is the intent. Being a narrative of listening, considering then doing what is shared I believe could be correct as it informed the audience of what is and always was the intent or will of God.
Salvation follows whenever the gospel explaining it is prophesied.
Skip said something in Crossing. And on this blog… The scripture is more about a personal emotional change than the history of a nation. The nation is those that actually go through that emotional change. Correct not a cognitive change an emotional one. Immersed in the Jordan the turmoil of sustaining life. Then immersed in the will of God. Through the spirit of God to be sons and daughters of God.
Again just my 2 cents… I have read your blog’s we had discussed this previously so I am just adding on not repeating discussions on Joh1:1-5 but aligning it to the tasking of John which followed these verses.
Oh, the other Scripture I wanted to ask about is:
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. So if Joseph was not literally the father….
And there are other Scriptures regarding the fact that it was the Holy Ghost that Mary was conceived by which would make Yeshua to have to be divine. right?
So are you saying that Yeshua is divine but just not equal to God?
Thanks for your reply.
Joy
Yes, so true about the people in my life as well! Thanks for the needed reminders of the serious need for caution!
^ that was supposed to be for Laurita’s post!
Skip, I purposely enjoyed the week of Shavuot, without reading your blog, in part because I was not wanting to see where you were going with all this. To be honest, over the past 20 years, that I have been walking with Messiah, in the Hebraic/Messianic context of the faith, I have seen too many who have fallen, with a shipwrecked faith. It seems the anti-Messiah teachers begin their work, (with portions of Scripture) and people soon fall away from their first love. They then begin to misuse Torah, as a merit badge system, to get the approval they desire from God and man. We know that Scripture can be twisted to our destruction (2 Pet. 3:13). Therefore, when you make statements that Jesus did not die on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, as you did in Sedalia, it makes me wonder, where you are headed with all this?
What I know about the deity, or divinity of Messiah Yeshua, is what He has accomplished for me:
“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15: 3-4). Only God could have saved me from where I was 31 years ago. Skip, you are right, the victory is not in a dead man on a cross, the victory is in the power of the resurrection. But, please be more careful, because reckless statements about Messiah’s death, without knowing where your audience is coming from, is very disconcerting.
There are multitudes of things I will never comprehend this side of the Olam Ha Ba, and I am content to not expect my little pea brain to be able to wrap itself around the context of the Godhead. I think Job summed it up very well when he said, “Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know” (Job 42:3). There are some things that are just too wonderful, and they include:
“And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath, Least among the clans of Judah, From you one shall come forth To rule Israel for Me — One whose origin is from of old, From ancient times” (Micah 5:1 or 2)
“Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’ Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple (John 8:58-59).
“”I and the Father are one.” The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?’ The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God'” (John 10:30-33).
It seems the Jews in ancient days, considered the above words of Messiah, and drew the conclusion that He was alluding to Himself as God. I draw the same conclusion. If the image of Yahweh can be manifested as two, in the male and female, can it not be manifested as the Father and the Son?
Hi Skip and all other commenters
Skip, I started subscribing to your daily emails recently, and I really appreciate all the thinking going on at this website, by you and by your readers! Like Jane, the previous commenter on this page, I too have a couple of verses (just for starters) that I cannot see in any other way except that they show that Jesus is fully God: Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 43:11 + Titus 2:13; Zech. 12:10 (the one speaking in this verse is the Lord); Acts 20:28; Revelation 1:8, 1:17-18; Revelation 21:6&7; Revelation 22:13. Would anyone care to comment?
Thanks