A Personal Sadness
Yesterday a long time reader and supporter withdrew from the group. His reason was the debate over the Trinity. He said that he just could no longer continue the discussion because I had not been clear about the divinity of Yeshua, His uncreated being and His equivalence with the Father.
I was so sad to see this happen. It means that I haven’t done my job, not to provide “definitive”answers, but to encourage all of us to be able to explore these complex and important issues without feeling as if we have to agree in order to know our Lord. I was sad because somehow my explorations and questions left him feeling as though I was no longer in the fold, and apparently, being in the fold is the most important thing.
Let me be as frank as possible. I just don’t know what to think yet. I have lots of questions, questions that are not answered by the typical Christian responses. That’s just where I am. I believe that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah and that he is divine in that sense, but I just don’t see grounds for the Trinity from the biblical standpoint.
He also said that over the last few years I have become more and more critical of Christianity. That is true. I admit it. That does NOT mean that I think Christian believers are awful pagans. I just think they don’t know their own history, a history which I am convinced does not arise from the Scriptures but rather from the Gentile philosophical ideas brought into the “church” by the early, anti-Semitic fathers. As far as I can see, this is historical fact. The Bible is Jewish, perhaps not the Judaism of today, but certainly the Jewish way of life of the first century. I know there were lots of sects of Judaism in those days, but there were no Christian sects. Those arrived after Bar Kochba and a few other socio/political events. As far as its historical basis, Christianity’s claim on Jewish Scriptures is a lie.
Anyway, it just makes me feel terrible to think that someone who loved what we are trying to do would find it necessary to withdraw himself and his support of these efforts over a doctrinal issue. I am so sorry I wasn’t adequate to the task. I guess God has a lot to teach me still.
I’ve had numerous experiences with people getting upset when I point out a belief that doesn’t line up with Scripture. Being raised Catholic for the first couple of decades of my life, I have plenty of experience in non-Biblical beliefs. I’ve come the realization that one reason that YHWH commands us to stay away from idols is that we begin to see the idol as God, and we will defend it to the death thinking that we’re defending God. (Think of all the controversies that spring up around December over whether a manger scene or an Xmess tree can be set up on public proberty, for instance. These controversies are called ‘attacks on Christianity’ when Yeshua himself would probably be the first on the scene with a sledgehammer and a book of matches. (per Dt. 12:3))
While we may not bring the idols into our homes anymore, we can still bring them into our heart. I’m sure the supporter who left thinks that he left to defend YHWH and Yeshua, but what he was really doing is protecting the idol in his heart. The sad thing is that the rest of us suffer because of his idolatry. If teachers are afraid of protecting people’s feelings that will hinder the information they share.
I need to clarify too that if the base belief here on this site is that we are not seeing the totality of the scriptures from which to interpret the entire thing about God sending his Son and that it is clearly shown in place after place that the Messiah was God with us, then I’m beginning to question the validity of this conversation.
There is only one Messiah and no one will ever be like him. His risen body is what makes us a body. If you argue with that, then I’m out.
Skip ~ With great anticipation, I read your Word Study each day. As one who is in the throes of questioning all the beliefs I’ve held and proclaimed all the years of my life, I find great comfort knowing you, and others, precede me in giving YAH permission to “rattle your cage” (thank you Chaya1957)and unravel false beliefs once held so tightly we were strangling ourselves and others. It is unsettling and deeply painful for me at times, but I thank YAH each day for HIS loving kindness as HE alone has brought me to this place of willingness to know HIM on HIS terms, and to live according to HIS ways.
Like Rahab, Ruth, and many others, I want to join with the people of YHVH, and their God be my God.
I haven’t come to any conclusion regarding Yeshua yet. I don’t know if he is the Mashiach. I don’t know if he came as the Living Torah. I don’t know if he is the only begotten Son of God. I know that every time I hear messages from Hebrew/Messianic teachers, it is always overlaid with Christian doctrine using multiple references to foreshadowing, so it isn’t helpful at all. For the present, I am reading from the Tanakh. I am also reading other authors you have recommended.
I spent so many years worshiping Jesus, calling him my “Lord and Savior”, and truly believing it was “all about Jesus”, quoting NT verses as if they were of higher value than the OT, that I barely acknowledged YHVH. In due time, I’m sure I’ll have a better understanding of who Yeshua was and is but for now, I’m asking you to please keep teaching, please keep challenging us, and to be encouraged that your readers are in many different places in this discovery and The Ancient of Days is using you to help us on our journey, while experiencing yours too.
If some must retreat for a time, it is part of their journey. May the Father of Lights continue to shine light where we are in darkness.
Be blessed, and be of good cheer. SHALOM.
Dear Marci,
Yes, I too long for the ability to see what the text says without all the overlay from 4 decades of indoctrination. But it takes a long time to peel away the layers.
So does one ‘peel away layers’ before coming to the text, or is it as we study the text the layers are peeled away? In other words, we come with our prejudices, our biases, however we may have gotten them, but the Ruach of YHVH does His part in the transformation of our hearts and minds AS we study the written Word.
Something odd with the comment feed… This morning when I read this TW there were a lot more comments, to many for me to read at the time. After coming back later in the day to read them all, I find only a few in the comment feed. What’s up with that?
Tanya, there is a page selection at the bottom. This defaults to the latest page.
After Jesus gave a particularly difficult teaching . . .
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Skip, I emphasize with you over the loss of one long time reader but it makes one wonder how one would feel over the loss of many or even most of ones friends if he felt compelled to teach something really unpopular. Are you prepared for that?
I think so, but it would certainly hurt. I am just trying to understand what the text says, and readers are just following my journey, and sometimes the journey takes me places I didn’t expect and I don’t know how to deal with, but it’s OK since the journey is not to a doctrine but a person and relationships always trump declarations. Were that not so, most of us would be lost forever.
I like what you’re doing Skip – thank you for asking questions that I don’t know to ask!
Again, what is so complicated, unless we are honoring the idea of questioning everything? It couldn’t be clearer that God made this simple. Don’t wait until it’s passed the time for it mattering to connect to the basic ONE who gives the basic LIFE to LOVE.
Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and God separated the light from the darkness.
Very BASIC.
I am sorry Skip that you had to experience that, however, as you know, sometimes people have to walk away to get perspective. Perhaps, one day, this person will realize that we can disagree on LOTS of things but still walk together. A concept shouldn’t be what divides, it should be set aside for unity…isn’t that what tolerance is?
Hi Skip
It was good to see you write from the heart about the loss of the group member, over the issue of the Trinity.
It is a fact I believe, that the ability to cope at the emotional level, over one’s perceptions of truth and challenges to one’s equilibrium with respect to it, is something that the overwhelming majority of people have never been educated about, or have been provided with any training with respect to it, whatsoever.
I saw an instructional video some time ago, that was made for police officers who were being trained for crowd control.
These officers were required to endure long sessions of intense abuse wherein they were insulted, cursed, pushed about, called every filthy name under the sun and where their trainers also threatened and cursed their wives, children and mothers.
The point of it all was to teach them how to maintain an even emotional keel, under conditions of severe provocation.
I happen to know that this kind of training works to inculcate emotional discipline. I had to put myself through a form of it, in order to reign in my own dysfunctional emotional responses to a variety of interpersonal situations that were problematic for me.
Most people have no idea that they are meant to be managers of the emotions upon which they often feel compelled to make decisions, rather than victims of their emotions.
For the most part, people make decisions on the basis of how they feel in response to the circumstances of life, without realizing that emotional responses do not necessarily have a good level of correspondence with reality.
It is not surprising therefore, that relationships are easily damaged over doctrinal issues and the like.
You have a powerful and disciplined intellect. You are skilled at research and logical reasoning. You are also probably somewhat used to dealing with the cognitive and emotional dissonance that goes along with having to revise your world view in the light of new and challenging information.
There would not be one in a million out there in the big bad world who has that kind of capability and it begs the question I think, concerning how much of the problem we need to take ownership over – as per the issue I had with my friend concerning his inability to accept at the emotional level, the factually justifiable assertion that the Christian church has no right to exist.
I do not know of an easy answer to this issue, but I do know however, that it is useful to realize that most people are about 6 years old when it comes to emotional sensitivity concerning their beliefs, how they see themselves and how they understand the world around them.
In that light, I find that I often need to avoid hitting them over the head with facts (no matter how compelling my facts might be) but rather, work firstly on building up some credits in the bank concerning the personal relationship I have with them.
Once that is done, I find it much easier then, to get into the compelling facts (while usually doing so on a fairly incremental basis, to also avoid blowing them out of the water).
At the same time I find it useful also, to be as diplomatic and tactful as I can be; if I know that I am calling on them to revise their world view in any way.
I am not a natural at diplomacy and tact unfortunately, but I have acquired some facility in these areas and can usually function adequately with respect to them.
Some quick questions before I go.
Is it not true that Scripture declares YHWH to be just and that He looks upon the heart as a priority?
In this light, how do you think YHWH views Christians who sincerely do what they know to do in light of their current understanding – even though their understanding may be in error due to natural limits on their scholarly capabilities and other constraints on their opportunities to learn, that they have no control over?
Isn’t it the case, that while there may be unfortunate consequences that flow from flawed understanding, this does not diminish the status in YHWH’s eyes, of those who sincerely align themselves with Him, according to the understanding that they have?
Best wishes
Richard
Thanks for posting this, Richard.
As a non trinitarian follower of Y’shua I have found that when most of our friends find out what we believe in this area, usually they start looking for wood and matches and consider us dangerously heretical, terrified that we might express an opinion about this topic. I am sorry that the individual left but it is no reflection on you. He obviously did NOT love the investigative process which often leads to our sacred cows being slaughtered. Don’t beat yourself up over it. To everything there is a season; his season here is done for now and who knows, he might reconsider in time. Bless you brother, be strong and very courageous.
It is a sad event when one can’t accommodate the thinking of another. However , I need for you to explain your statement “that Christianity’s claim to the Jewish scriptures is a lie.”
OK, here’s what I meant. If the Scriptures (all of them) are really Jewish (per Boyarin, Sanders, Young, Reed, Becker, Eisenbaum, Gager, Gaston, etc.), then the claim that the Scriptures support doctrines that are clearly anti-Semitic cannot be correct. Why would any Jew of the Scriptures write material that was against his own avowals? So that means that Christianity, which we know historically did not exist until at least the 2nd century CE, had to use a Jewish document (the Bible) as its foundation for claims that no Jew would have made. And it had to do this by claiming that the Jews who wrote the material in part of the Bible (the New Testament) were really not Jews any longer but had converted to Christianity. But there is no evidence of this conversion in anything they wrote and Christianity as a religious system did not exist when they wrote. So, doesn’t that imply that the claim that Christianity rests of the work of Jewish men writing Jewish documents about Jewish ideas is a lie? Christianity rests on REWRITING what these men said so that it fits a religious system that is inherently anti-Jewish (as all of the above scholars have demonstrated). So, what is such a claim? The truth? Or a lie?
tough stuff, these rejections! Sorry to hear it. Amein to brother Richard’s comments above. And can’t agree with you more about Christianity not understanding its own history. If it helps, there’s lots of us here still to send ya a long distance Yeshua hug & a prayer. thanks so much for all you do, and may YHWH continue to bless you and yours.
HI Skip… Thank you for your transparency and openness about your own search and being such a seeker of truth. I respect your work and your writing to everyone… may God bless you with peace and continue to cover, satisfy, and uphold you.
Skip,
This reminded me of Abraham Heschel. When he states, man has problems. A man without problems is not living. (Hopefully I did not miss interpret Mr. Heschel). However, even a great Philosopher recognizes the struggles in life. But we must embrace these issues and not run from them….Lets tackle the elephants in the room.
Just a thought when I read this article.
Oh, Skip, I am so sorry. Galatians 1:10. Be a servant. Carry on in grace & humility.
I grieve with you because we have been pushed away by family over doctrinal differences. I believe you are being used by YHVH in a mighty way, and I appreciate your teachings!
I’ve been reading and following your posts, Skip, for quite some time now. I’ve learned so much! The best thing is that you’ve made me think:)
We’re in a time of tearing down of the false and a rebuilding of the foundation. The foundation being built along the righteous plumb line. We are being called out of the harlot. More and more are coming out and seeking truth. Hallelu Yah!
And, yes, at times, it is painful. I’ve experienced some loss of relationships as you and some of your readers have because of pulling away from the “church” and going back to the “roots”. I try to keep reminding myself that we are ALL on a journey:) I am still connected in some respects and pray daily for opportunities to engage with those who are truly seeking. I believe there are a lot more people than we realize who are looking for truth. There are many who just sense there is something missing and something more!
We also have to remember it is very easy to misinterpret and misunderstand the written word. I guess that’s sort of what happened and happens with translations of the Scriptures. Sort of:)
Our Father knows our hearts and sees our actions.
Keep digging:)
Shalom Shalom!
But, Paul was not anti-Semitic nor was he anti-Gentile. In the cross all are made one Man. How does this fit your perspective, Skip?
Please explain Hebrews and Galatians, if there was not a sharp distinction between life in Christ and the Law that Paul clearly says was taken out of the way. Why did Paul get beaten so often by Jews, if there was not a Light disturbing the darkness of Jewish legalism? Because Paul said there was not a need for the sacrifices being made in the Jewish temples. These shadows were not the real and the real leaves it all behind.
There is not a reason for anyone build what was decimated in Christ, while he suffered on the cross.
After reading for about 2 months, this is my first comment and may be so buried in the 100+ that it goes unread, which will be fine.
But – several thoughts. What is the saying about “2 Jews, 3 opinions”. From a Hebraic perspective, the discussion is usually heated and one may even accuse the other of “destroying Torah” – and then they will finish up, slap each other on the back, and go have lunch together. In Israel I have witnessed just café conversations that I thought were “knock down drag out” fights, only to find out it was a “friendly exchange”. We in the West are far too attached to our opinions and traditions for our own good! We don’t know how to hold our opinions with an open hand, ready to be corrected or transformed by the Living Word as it is revealed.
Second – Skip, I absolutely do not agree with everything you posit….how boring would that be! We might as well all get our hankies out and wave them around and shout “Amen”. We’d have a “feel good time” but learn absolutely nothing. It’s iron that sharpens iron, and that is not always pleasant… I also don’t agree with what I myself shouted from the rooftops a few short years ago. But – let’s talk, engage, exchange ideas and research and come to new and deeper understanding.
I saw you had a recorded teaching with Moshe Kempinski of Shorashim in the Old City and mentioned that to him when I was there in June. (For those who do not know him, Moshe is an Orthodox Jew who is very open to conversations with those who love the God of the Bible, and I have seen him be very polite in the face of some real strong arm tactics to get him to another belief system).
My favorite quote of his is, “We are ALL going to be surprised.”
We will all be Surprised by TRUTH; by the journey to discern Truth, by the stops along the way, by the questions we never thought to ask before, by the answers to those questions, by confusion and re-arranged our favorite and long-held doctrines, and by the things we absolutely do not know anymore. Surprised by the new things we’re learning. And knowing the best and most amazing of surprises are yet to come (and no idea of even the context of what some of them will be 🙂 So let’s link arms and pull each other along over the rocks and hard places… and bolster each other over the confusions and questions. And always, always, remain rooted and grounded in Torah, seeking it’s good knowledge, to understand and apply with wisdom.
Next, if we think this dust-up over the Trinity is difficult, what will people think when you begin to parse these questions: Just WHO is the BrideGROOM; who is the Bride? (to whom was Israel betrothed during the Exodus? Who is the bridegroom Yeshua spoke of?)
Finally, the loss of a brother, a traveling companion, is indeed sad – and as others of said, worthy of being mourned. I do not know who that brother is (altho I have an idea based on previous comments and who is no longer posting.. but I may be wrong).
Whomever it is, I, too, mourn with you and the group.
Looking forward to meeting you tomorrow at the Scottsdale conference at CCV!
I believe that every person who has posted today has a conviction — just like the person who left — that if challenged, would lead him or her to leave the conversation. Over the years, I’ve disagreed with or was skeptical about many ideas discussed in this forum. I’ve stayed in because being confronted with the unconventional ideas has been healthy for my spiritual growth. But if the conversation started to morph into the acceptance of Mormon prophets, reincarnation, or some other area that I am absolutely convinced is flat wrong, I would bolt. I would not leave because I was too challenged, loved my doctrinal idols too much, or was afraid of new ideas, but because I would feel that a line had been crossed that I was not willing myself to cross, or an idea proposed that I had already thoroughly considered and rejected. What I mean is, we all have point at which we would bail. On many issues we can agree to disagree, but on some, we must disagree strongly and part ways. As for the particulars of this case, I often wonder that so many of us think we can understand what God actually is, or discern the nature of being divine. It seems to me to be the height of arrogance. But still, it’s our spiritual duty and our human nature to grapple with it all our days. Thank you, Skip, for doing what you do, in the face of disagreement, and also in the face of agreement, which sometimes makes it even harder to stay uncorrupted.
I wanted to respond to this- first thank you for helping to open my eyes to the hebraic perspective of Scripture. I am sorry you have lost a long time member but you shouldn’t apologize nor feel responsible or guilty. Sometimes division just happens no matter how gently or diplomatic you approach a subject. Accepting even the mere possibility of the Trinity doctrine being wrong and perhaps even having pagan origins is a huge paradigm shift with huge implications that many are just too afraid to go there for fear of losing the core idea of their faith and thereby becoming “lost” in a sense. If Yeshua is not divine and equal with God, then where do we go from there, not just as Christians, but as human beings? What is the truth then? more importantly, how does this particular truth affect our spiritual condition? That’s how big this is.
Here’s where I am at after following this debate. As far as the Trinity goes, I have conceded that the scripture is not as clear as I thought it was, and that the traditional explanation of how God is three distinct persons with 3 distinct roles, wrapped up into one complete “GOD” being, actually clears nothing up, causes more confusion than clarity, and it’s acceptance or full understanding should not be a “salvational” issue like I was somewhat forced to believe by pretty much all major sects of Christianity. HOWEVER…i still believe Yeshua is not merely a chosen human being to be the Father’s Messiah as part of His overall plan for the redemption of fallen man. Yeshua is divine in some sense and distinct from both men and angels or any other created being- He did pre – exist and appear to men in some divine form as scripture suggests (but does not dogmatically state in a clear way). I believe He was there at the creation, he is the being that causes all things to “consist” like Collossians 1:17 says. He was accused of making Himself equal with Yawheh when speaking to the Jewish religious elite of His day and so the things He was saying DID go against traditional Jewish thought, and in the end became at least partial cause for Him being worthy of death in the minds of the Jewish leadership.
So Christianity probably took some ideas about just who the Messiah of Israel is, and His apparent divinity, too far, and absolutely brought in some pagan ideas as soon as a hundred years or less after The resurrection…While traditional Jewish thought, including Messianic Jewish thought… cannot explain it any more clearly and causes them to either not recognize their own Messiah when He reveals Himself to them, or continues to cause strife and division within the fold. SOMEWHERE in the middle of this paradigm is the truth, and we must, in unity and humilty, seek it out together, but by all means stay together as we explore it….
One thing that does frustrate me about you Skip is, you’re quite comfortable never settling on what the truth is and just constantly exploring without ever making a concrete determination. I’m not saying you’re wrong in doing that, it’s just frustrating!
In love,
Kevin McKinney
When I was a lot younger and finally settled on the historical fact of the resurrection my chief question was how in the world did the Jewish leaders reject Yeshua as the Messiah. I mean, if one of you starts spouting off about dying, actually does die, a few days later is seen walking around alive, and then is seen sailing off into the blue I am going to take a very long look at you too. Everything else seems trivial by comparison. 41,000 Protestant denominations, websites debating Yachid vs Echad, and thousands of televangelists later I am starting to understand why they did. Something or someone changed those disciples after the resurrection, and later Paul. I don’t think the Trinitarian doctrine, or any doctrine, had anything to do with those sorts of transformation. Skip, and several of you on this board, including the one who left, if it is who I think it is, have challenged my belief system to the core several times. There have been times I have actually been mad. But I see that as a good thing. I am not the author of all truth, or even truth’s final arbiter. I’m well educated, and have done a lot in my life but feel like I know so little. Somewhere along the way I jettisoned my need to be “right” and started listening. I know I need to learn, and more importantly, do the things I clearly see that God told me, and you, to do in His Word. it is important to me to keep an open mind on all these issues as I trust Yeshua to guide me where he wants me to be.
While I’m growing more and more to respect the Hebraic tradition, I must point out, they don’t have the “lock” on the truth. Paul said that a veil covers their heart when Moses is read (http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/3-15.htm). To get their insights is invaluable. And I take it in. But they’re not conceived from above. And from my perspective, that must also be considered.
Skip, you are not alone in the pain you feel in losing a long-time supporter. I have lost not one, but two, very close (I considered them my best friends at the time) friends over doctrinal differences. And this present debate over the trinity is causing division within my extended family where two children are attending a Hebraic Roots assembly. Their parents view the assembly as a cult and refuse to attend because of the assembly’s rejection of the doctrine of the trinity. I don’t know what your understanding is of the “religious spirit”, but I believe it is probably the single biggest struggle we are called to. And the hardest part of that struggle is realizing that this spirit is alive and well in ALL who have a zeal for God/YHWH, which probably includes most if not all of us pursuing the Hebraic origins of our faith. The number one characteristic of this unclean spirit is that it is more interested in finding fault in others than it is in uncovering one’s own sins. When is the last time we removed a log from our own eye so that we could see clearly enough to remove the speck in our brother’s eye?
I truly appreciate what you are doing. The truth will purify us, painfully at times, IF we are willing to (as you love to constantly point out) practice it, to DO it.
I love what I heard a messianic rabbi say recently: (I won’t put it in quotes because I don’t remember it verbatum) If one stops asking questions and is satisfied with answers you have stopped growing. Asking questions should lead to more questions, not answers. Not exactly a comfortable idea to us Westerners who like nice neat boxes and doctrinal “statements of faith” that should never change.
“And of the increase of his kingdom there shall be no end.”
“where two children are attending a Hebraic Roots assembly.” PRAISE GOD! All but one of our 7 adult children have nothing to do with God. Our “baby,” now 29 yoa, who had to go thru the “fireswamp” of drugs and deliverance, is very involved in “church” but is also very alert to things that just don’t seem right… things that gnaw at his gut. Please pray for him … that he would SLOW DOWN in life in order to have time to concentrate on the LORD and to consider what we’ve learned, unlearned, and are learning as we share with him what our lives are like serving A HEBREW Messiah! We are very close and he is definitely “concerned for Dad”… you know, sort of going out “there”… way out there! In fact, making a complete Paradigm shift as we learn and pray and learn some more.
Adding to all the positive posts, I appreciate and commend them in the joy of learning and relearning in this very exciting journey of seeking and digging into truths that have evaded us who had gone through disturbing church doctrines.
Doctrine is simply what you believe.
Basic church doctrines widely accepted as truth by Fundamentalists-
God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as three-in-one,
The Person of Jesus Christ: Jesus is 100% God and 100% man for all eternity.
Believe, baptize and you shall be saved,
You are saved by grace alone and not by works,
The Scripture: It is entirely inerrant.
All the above need to be addressed for us to come to a broader understanding of what Scripture truly says, not from translations, definitely not from man’s interpretations. YHWH has gradually been releasing Ancient Scrolls and archeological finds to establish His Word. We are not there as yet, much more to discover through digging.
If a person or even a whole movement is found to have a different spirit and false prophets, how can one remain in such an assembly without being troubled, if one is grounded in seeking and finding truth?
Having read TWs for quite a while, it would be sad that some are still ignorant of what/where Skip is coming from, the dogma/doctrines he has been diligently seeking to correct coming from a Hebraic view of the Scriptures, as understood and practiced by the first Believers in Israel, and the Tanakh/”OT” being written and faithfully kept, by Jews, whose way of life/culture is way different from the Western, Roman/Greek-influenced way of thinking and culture.
Thus, we have much to learn from them. It is so amazing that heaps of folks are coming to that realization of “something amiss” in the places where they worship.
That is the work of YHWH in these critical days, of gathering, storing up for the days of famine of the Word ahead, for those who hunger for Him to be fruit/light for the nations, even as Israel has been going through these many, many centuries.
The issue/s would be truly the unwillingness to accept, nor be renewed in a paradigm change, in a step-by-step, one word a day approach that Skip does here, though he does go from one topic to another, but the dots DO join in a bigger picture, if we are patient to travel along, with the help of others on the blog. We do get encouraged and strengthened by the often rich comments posted here through the various diverse experiences of those on this enriching maturing, journey. Such joy in the many personal testimonies shared here!
Truth IS divisive, it’s a two-edged Sword, cutting through bone AND marrow!
Tolerance IS compromise.
Skip,
You ARE up to the task. As are so many of us. But it takes us awhile to notice truths that Yahweh reveals only when He’s ready. So this person who has withdrawn is no different from you in one sense… as far as I can tell, neither of you can stand up (yet) and call yourself an Israelite. But when you look closely at the great mystery that Paul discusses in Galatians, Colossians and Ephesians you (and this other fellow) will hopefully see that when we’re grafted in, when we’re believers in the power that is in THE BLOOD, when we’ve accepted Yahshua as our Savior, then we’re partakers in the Covenant of Promises made to Abraham and that means that WE ARE ISRAEL. We can not really call ourselves Christian if we recognize that we are, in fact, ISRAEL! But he just hasn’t noticed that fact. Neither have you, as far as I can tell. But you still have great beautiful insights that help me gain perspective. And I thank you.
–Melissa Rawlins
Quoting from Melissa’s post to Skip:
“We can not really call ourselves Christian if we recognize that we are, in fact, ISRAEL! But he just hasn’t noticed that fact. Neither have you [Skip], as far as I can tell.”
I stand amazed at this message to Skip!!
Helen
Perhaps I should have responded to this long ago, but Helen just drew my attention to your last statement. To be grafted in is to be adopted into the Kingdom which is Israel, but that isn’t the same as calling myself an Israelite. Ethnicity is not the same as spiritual identity. In this sense I will always be a Gentile, just a converted one. But suggesting that I haven’t noticed that Christian and follower of YHVH are not the same seems to have missed almost everything I have written about the formation of the Church and the differences in theology and philosophy on the subject. Maybe I just missed your point.
Dear Skip and Helen and Anyone Else Reading This:
Your feelings do matter to me, and I am sorry to have amazed you in ways unique to each of you. In my empathy after reading Skip’s posting re: the man who separated himself, and then in my great passion to reach Skip through the internet with a word of comfort, my thoughts have been misunderstood. All I can ask is that each of you forgive me for the offense I’ve given.
Skip, I do understand your teachings show us all that there is a difference between Yah’s Way and the Christian teachings. In no way was I feeling condemnation for you. Rather, I was feeling sympathy and even empathy about your path.
It took me 7 years after conversion from Atheism to Christianity to realize what Paul was teaching and to stop calling myself a Christian, since in the physical I was no longer doing the things people who called themselves Christian were doing (which are things I did even while an Atheist). But unlike you, Skip, I had nothing to unlearn at conversion and the 7 years until I could call myself an Israelite were simply 7 years of learning through Holy Spirit-inspired King James. We’re all free to have our own ways of seeing things and I, too, see a distinction between my spiritual Israelite identity (which plays out in the physical in my every day actions) and my current status as an American citizen. I am not a Zionist, and do not think I need to make aliyah or sing the Israeli national anthem.
No, Skip and Helen, in my note I was simply making reference to the words of Skip’s letter to the community. “I just don’t know what to think yet. I have lots of questions, questions that are not answered by the typical Christian responses. That’s just where I am.” Then I made a comment that I thought would shine light on what might have been happening… without being asked, I went deep into a little lesson I have learned the hard way. Maybe that’s why Helen stands amazed? My presumptuousness? Helen, please forgive me.
Since Skip has now asked: Psychologically speaking, when you’re in a battle with another person the natural thing to do is find a way to mimic them so you establish likeability. Way back when, I used to do this. My husband smoked, as I did when we married, but after receiving the Holy Spirit I had quit. (It took me a year and a half, and I certainly did not sweat blood for those 18 months — yet the Spirit prevailed!) Still, when husband and I fought and then attempted to talk things out, I found myself picking up those filterless camels and smoking right along with him during the talk session — gagging the whole time. Later I’d confide to Yahshua my shame for picking up those cigarettes again. Only Yah was able to explain to me why I was doing that. It was my flesh grasping for likeability. It did not work, by the way. He never learned to like me just by watching me do as he was doing.
Anyway, my impression from Skip’s letter to us about his talks with this man was that Skip used the term “Christian” about himself as well as about that man. Not straight out, not directly. But in Skip’s indirectness and uncertainty (which is valid — we all go through that to get somewhere new) he was still picking up that Christian cigarette and, although it tasted terrible, blowing smoke rings with it.
When I wrote that first note, it seemed to me (the perennial problem solver) that a great way out of that mess is just to proclaim who you are and revel in the new you!
A month later, thanks to Helen, I now ask, “Who am I to pick out for you what that term should be?”
Yes, Helen, that task is not for me.
I stand corrected ☺
Shalom to you all,
—Melissa Rawlins
Kind words, taken seriously. Thank you for responding.
Dear Melissa,
I would like to explain to you my reaction to your post to Skip, because it did not have much to do with the love-filled reply you have written. However, I will need to wait until tomorrow because it is too late tonight.
So goodnight! I pray you a sweet sleep and a refreshing in body and spirit!
Helen
Dear Melissa,
I’m going to quote phrases from your post, so I can refer to them accurately.
“Maybe that’s why Helen stands amazed? My presumptuousness? Helen, please forgive me.”
Melissa, you have done/said nothing that needs my forgiveness!! When I said “I stand amazed” I was referring to your use of the phrase ““We can not really call ourselves Christian if we recognize that we are, in fact, ISRAEL!”
I was not aware that Skip is “ISRAEL”, and I assumed you meant he has replaced Christianity with being so, or that he should be replacing it?? I’m not even certain that I understand what it means to BE “ISRAEL”
Another quote: “A month later, thanks to Helen, I now ask, “Who am I to pick out for you what that term should be?” Yes, Helen, that task is not for me.”
I stand corrected” Melissa, I didn’t mean to “correct” you, I just desired to understand what you meant by “we are, in fact, ISRAEL!”
Are you using that term the way I would say “I am American”?
Please do not feel a need to reply to my questions, Melissa. I did want to try to explain the phrase I used, and pray that I’ve cleared up some misunderstandings.
Helen
Well, Helen, I appreciate your explanation. Still, though you weren’t correcting me I do see that it would be wise to approach more thoughtfully and, as you did, ask permission to share my opinion 🙂
Hopefully having read my email to Skip and you, you got the answer to your question ( ” I just desired to understand what you meant by “we are, in fact, ISRAEL!” Are you using that term the way I would say “I am American”? ” ) and understand that no, I do not mean that American = Israeli. I mean that we are Israel as Paul defines it in Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11, Galatians 5:1 and 3:14, 18 & 29 ( the liberty wherewith Yahshua has made us free = the liberty to be not christian, not jew, not gentile, but Israel ) when we participate in the blood covenant offered to us through Yahshua haMashiah. That “Israel” shares the blood of Yahshua and the physical markers in the DNA do not matter. That Israel is in NO WAY the same as the country set up by the United Nations in the late ’40s. It is also not the same as this place that I call home for now, America. Having been to Israel I would say that living here in the United States is a blessing. For now Yah has me here and I’m here until He moves me! But I live as an Israelite, according to the Everlasting Covenant. This is because I was invited by Yah to teshuva, return to His Way. This makes me part of His true Israel. A fabulous study is “The Everlasting Covenant.” When you align yourself with it, you are Israel. That’s how I see it. Tell me if you can see what I am saying! It’s very exciting!
Shalom, Shalom!
http://www.chayah.info
Melissa Rawlins
Quoting you, Melissa: “Well, Helen, I appreciate your explanation. Still, though you weren’t correcting me I do see that it would be wise to approach more thoughtfully and, as you did, ask permission to share my opinion.”
I do not recall asking your permission to share your opinion!! But if that’s the way your mind processed this, then there is nothing further that I can say, even to offer further explanation.
My prayer for you is that you will come to know personally and beautifully ……..the God Who is and was the Lord Jesus Christ Who died on Calvary’s Cross that you might have the great honor of knowing Him in all His Glory and the Promise of Life Everlasting in His Presence.
Because He lives, I am
Helen
Dr. Moen, I just encountered http://www.chosenpeople.com/symposium/page8.html which contains links to .doc papers from the Borough Park Symposiums of 2010 and 2012. In 2010, all but the first paper by Dr. David Rudolph concerned the Deity of Yeshua. Are you familiar with any of them?
Thanks David.
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. As my adult son said one day in a conversation..”Jesus never chased anyone”……true….carry on Skip!