Just Wait Awhile
each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 1 Corinthians 3:13 NASB
Will become evident – “Let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.” Remember that childhood Sunday school song? “This little light of mine. I’m gonna’ let it shine.” Paul would have approved. The Greek here is phaneron genesetia, “to become visible, to be manifest, to show, to light up.” Perhaps his choice of words here dictates the subsequent use of purifying fire. Basically Paul instructs the Corinthians that in due time everything not godly will be burned up.
So take comfort. All you have to do is wait.
Are you frustrated because you see the error in the community? Do you find debate less than useful? Are you losing your zeal because of the monolithic obstinacy of the pagan spirituality in your culture? Does hopelessness peek around the corner because your friends and family just can’t understand why you are so “Jewish”? Remember that infamous line from Gamaliel. “If this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown, but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow [it]’ (Acts 5:38-39). It will all be evident in the end.
Some time ago I sat in a living room with a rather famous Messianic “rabbi.” He proclaimed the coming of the Messiah in 2012. His mind was made up. He had all the arguments and the prophecies in place. I objected on exegetical grounds. To no avail. In the end, all I had to do was wait. Oh, by the way, he’s still here too, but apparently he has forgotten all about those predictions.
It’s comforting to know that God is completely in control. I’m not in a hurry to have the answers. Why should I be? Will it matter much when I’m dead? I can wait. I have all the time I need. Paul declares that patience was the solution to all theological dilemmas. That also implies that my answers might have to be altered as time goes by. After all, things might seem very different in the full light of day. Phaneroo (“to reveal, to show”) is a synonym of apokalypto (I am sure you can guess the meaning). The truth will shine forth. It will be revealed. God will see to it. Of course, it might take a few millennia, but does that really matter? Can we have fellowship with YHVH and each other while we wait? Is it so difficult to just enjoy each other’s company even if we haven’t yet had the shining? Why are we so anxious to have the answers? Do you suppose that the quest of certainty, so much an essential element of the history of Western epistemology, might have infected our expectations of the Hebrew God?
Well, to tell you the truth, I’m not quite sure. After all, Hebrew has a concept of certainty too. I guess I’ll just have to wait and see what happens.
Topical Index: will become evident, phaneron genesetia, shine, show, 1 Corinthians 3:13
I remember the first or second Hebrew Word I received about 10 years ago I think was about being forged in the fire and the impurities being pounded out in the process. About becoming a tool that does God’s work.
On some things, it’s clear that Wisdom means not waiting…like the Proverbs say – get hold of it and do it immediately. Don’t let it go. I think this is why I have trouble with this forum.
John 1:1, Isaiah 9:6 and Philippians 2:6 all make it quite clear (especially in the original language) that the Messiah would be God himself – “God With Us”. If not accepting this clearly, even with misunderstanding about how it all works within the God the Father relationship and the Spirit, etc., then you are not trusting the Father like a little child and are truly in danger of not entering God’s Kingdom?
This has nothing to do with a council of Trent or council of Nicea or any other nonsense. This is clear scripture open to everyone’s eyes.
But of course some things are clear and immediate. Repent! Take up your cross! Forgive! Yes, immediately. But the topic is about those things that require lots of time to digest and investigate, especially our penchant for eschatology.
Now, since you want to return to the Trinity topic, do you really believe that Isaiah is so abundantly clear that anyone who reads it will instantly see that Yeshua MUST be identical in essence to the Father? If that is so, then why don’t the Jews see this. They have been reading Isaiah a lot long than Christians. And why didn’t the early Church fathers formulate the doctrine of the Trinity? They had Isaiah too. And why doesn’t every theologian believe as you believe? They all read Isaiah. Of course, you could say that they are ALL blind to the truth and you aren’t. But is that really a sufficient answer to the history of both Jews and Christians not seeing the verse as you do?
Just to set the record straight so that people don’t say I never give answer, only questions. There are now 4500 word studies on the web site. Most of them are about ANSWERS to questions concerning translation and interpretation about verses and words. But on this topic, the Trinity, there are more questions than answers because I myself am trying to understand and I am not willing to give answers where I only still have questions. BUT, that said, I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. I believe that he is the divine Messiah, the unique Messiah, the only Messiah, sent from God to overcome death, who volunteered to be our atonement for sin before the foundation of the world, who is indeed Emmanuel and the author and finisher of my faith. I believe that He is the Jewish Messiah and will return as the Jewish Messiah to reign for 1000 years as King in the Kingdom of God on earth. I believe that what He taught in the Gospels is the definitive commentary on the Tanakh and that He never violated any Torah commandment.
Do I also NEED to believe that He is co-equal and of the same essence as the Father, both 100% God and 100% Man at the same time? Am I lost because I question this idea? Or are you willing to let me struggle with it until I finally resolve the problems one way or that other?
Skip, you have set yourself in the position of teacher, which means you have greater responsibility than many who come here. Is God willing for you to wait to resolve the many verses on Jesus’ deity so others are led astray?
That would be my only concern.
Sincerity and truth are the essence of our Savior. So, of course, for you as a fellow human I am as patient and not nearly as patient as God is, of course. Can you say you are willing to take that responsibility for the many others who come here, who might be led into eternal error because of something so clear and so critical as the nature of our Savior?
Before anyone takes sides with the Accuser against me on this, I have begun to learn what this means to my daily walk. But, as John Wesley emphasized, we do not quit speaking the truth because we do not yet live it. The Truth is inerrant. Jesus is the Truth and we must relate to him…good luck. Let’s follow Him.
Yes, let’s follow and see what happens. Thanks.
Is it necessary to resolve the problem? Isn’t it correct that in Hebraic thought the unresolved conflict is an acceptable ‘resolution’, that only YHVH has ALL the answers and some things are left in his hands?
That being said, is not the HONORABLE thing to do when the discussion comes to the point of circular direction then the Patrick Henry’s “I may not agree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it”…I think he may of been quoting Voltaire. A Marine would say it this way “Dang! I don’t know WHY you insist on being wrong, but here, let me protect you while you do it!” (and they do.)
I do not ascribe to trinity. Especially after digging into the history of the ‘christian’ religion and realizing all the ways that it HAS BEEN molded to the environment of the culture it fermented in. Skip, you haven’t shocked me in most areas (numbers, deliverance, song of solomon….all these things we disagree in).
But you HAVE presented a pretty good discussion in the areas we disagree in as well as the ones we do not. Where we do agree, i commend you in your astuteness and ability to articulate so well those things that i myself have researched and found to be.
In the areas we do NOT agree in i revert back to my Marine training and just shake my head while supporting you in YOUR (seeming) error. Why you want to be WRONG is beyond me!
Get it? if we AGREE then YOU are right. if we DON’T agree then YOU are wrong. I, alone, stand upright and steadfast in the golden truth. The issue becomes AN issue (over relationship) when someone elevates their perspective over relationship. Along with that is how strong is any one person in their personal power, their ability to believe what they believe fearlessly and standing alone, if need be.
The weaker person will throw stones and get all butt hurt (military phrase) because their beliefs have been challenged. The stronger person will raise a glass of wine/beer/juice in honor of the other’s beliefs and lovingly marvel at their ignorance. (because humor makes it all better).
We live in America, supposedly the land of the free. Where every man is honored with the right to make their own, personal choices as to what they believe and how they express those beliefs. It so eludes me that people can no longer allow steadfast disagreement at a guttural level. In my brain i write it off that many have never served in the military and, by default, really do NOT understand or appreciate the price this two way freedom comes by.
Trinity has never been a Hebrew tenant. Messiah was not a trinitarian. Neither am i.
I guess we do if I read Rob’s words accurately. If I don’t agree with him on this issue, then I have sided with the accuser, regardless of whether or not I agree with Skip, and am flirting with eternal error.
Rusty,
Seriously, it doesn’t matter if you read Rob’s words correctly or not. HE will not be the being that judges you, in the end. That’s the point. He has to move w/in the confines of his perspectives and beliefs, and we do the same.
Unfortunately, if you push his line of reasoning all the way to its logical conclusion, he would have to kill anyone who disagreed with him. You know, destroy the body to defend the soul OR destroy the heretics to defend the faith.
At least he chose to stand down at a lesser step.
Grace in choice leads to life all the way around, when one considers it all the way to the end of the choice mark.
I know, that was my point.
Touche!
“For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away… For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then, face to face. For now I know in part but then shall I know even as I also am known. And now abideth faith, hope and charity, these three, but the greatest of these is charity.” Amen. And the rest, if it is without it, is as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal! Amen again.
********Luke 24:39, 40 – “Look at My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Touch Me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have.” Having said this, He showed them His hands and feet.
AT Robertson on 2 John 7:
That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh (Ιησουν Χριστον ερχομενον εν σαρκι — Iēsoun Christon erchomenon en sarki). “Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.” Present middle participle of ερχομαι — erchomai treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have εληλυτοτα — elēluthota (perfect active participle) in this same construction with ομολογεω — homologeō because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation. There is no allusion here to the second coming of Christ.
********John 8:58 – Jesus told them, “I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am.”
AT Robertson on 2 John 9:
And abideth not in the teaching of Christ (και μη μενων εν τηι διδαχηι του Χριστου — kai mē menōn en tēi didachēi tou Christou). Not the teaching about Christ, but that of Christ which is the standard of Christian teaching as the walk of Christ is the standard for the Christian‘s walk (1 John 2:6). See John 7:16; John 18:19. These Gnostics claimed to be the progressives, the advanced thinkers, and were anxious to relegate Christ to the past in their onward march. This struggle goes on always among those who approach the study of Christ. Is he a “landmark” merely or is he our goal and pattern? Progress we all desire, but progress toward Christ, not away from him. Reactionary obscurantists wish no progress toward Christ, but desire to stop and camp where they are. “True progress includes the past” (Westcott). Jesus Christ is still ahead of us all calling us to come on to him.
I’m sorry…Westcott? Who is westcott?
Proof texts, again.
Driven by a boxed in paradigm.
Again.
Let me get my recliner. This could be another long one.
From the 1966 movie The Professionals
Hans and Rico are professionals who are paid to kill Raza and his revolutionaries in Mexico.
Hans Ehrengard: Broiling by day. Freezing by night. Alkali dust choking every hole in your body. How in the name of God does anybody live here long enough to get used to it.
Rico: Men tempered like steel. Tough breed. Men who learn how to endure.
Hans Ehrengard: Like you and Dolworth.
Rico: Oh, no. Men like Raza. (Jesus Raza)
Regarding “purifying fire”
” If that is so, then why don’t the Jews see this. They have been reading Isaiah a lot long than Christians.”
As Paul observed, a veil lies across their hearts.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/3-15.htm
Sometimes we see want we want to see. “Recticular Activation” is what the fancy name for it is. Years ago, my father and brother, both owned Karman Ghias (by Volkswagen). Even with the thousands of cars that pass by me every day, if I see a Karman Ghia- my eyes are (somehow) drawn to it.
Our Bible also refers to those (some, -not all) who are “willingly ignorant!” (2 Peter 3.5) First response out of this man’s mouth is “why?” Why would any man (Jew or Gentile) want to remain “willingly ignorant?”
God has spoken, and openly invited any man, “Come unto Me all those who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest..” (Matthew 11.28)
Who is speaking here? It is our LORD. He is the Source of our strength- strength for the weary, and His is our “burden bearer.” ~ Casting all your care upon Him; for He cares for you ~ Ask yourself, sir, or m’am- what can Christ do for you?
You cannot very well say “nothing,” for He is dead, because He is not!
He is not dead, He is risen! (just as He said!). We serve (hello) a risen Savior!
He was despised and we esteemed Him not.. Was? Was despised? Or is despised? Therein lies the rub! Is He who He said He was? The question we would propose might be “Who is this Man? Who is this carpenter’s son? Should we run from Him? or shall we run to Him?
I’ve often wondered and would love to know, what does the modern day Jew think about this One “they” call the Christ? Is He the One? – or shall we look for another?
Everyone, I have seen this “it does not matter what you believe” for decades. Tell that to the ones who did not know until the floods came and took them away. “So shall it be at the coming of the son of man.”
Perhaps a more accurate statement might be “it does not matter what you think”. What matters is what you DO about what you ‘believe’ (whatever that word might mean). In the end, you will actually act (is that a Hebrew statement?) on where your heart is. The action reflects the heart. The head can be all over the place. Most of us are focused on what we are THINKING. But I see very little focus on thinking in the Word. Most of the focus is on the heart or the hand. On some of us, at least, our poor heads do not work very well… Good thing that does not kill the deal for me!
What Jesus said is what he delighted in – the fear of the LORD. He is the one who said the wise man is the one who builds on the rock (Jesus’ words). “For out of the heart comes [all manner of sin]…” Outside of him, I don’t think any of that will ever change. His blood purifies and completes us as we confess those sins with our behavior (like James said – out of the behavior a man shows his wisdom).
Rob,
The people who believed differently then Noah HAD A CHOICE….that’s MY point.
Take peace in YOUR choice, rejoice when you meet others that believe as you do and smile when they don’t. If it grieves you pray that YHVH would speak to them, guide them, lead them differently.
It’s HIS place, not ours, to press on the hearts of man.
If they won’t listen to YHVH, they certainly won’t listen to you. Or me. Or Skip.
Love them where they are. Messiah did.
You are quoting a man who quoted a “Wescott”…who is this Wescott, do you know?
A.T. Robertson was one of the most brilliant Greek scholars who ever lived. If he quotes Wescott or whoever is no mind to me, since he was aiming at understanding as well as explaining the Greek language. But, of course, what did John say about what people believe and how we should behave when the shirk the fact Jesus came permanently in the flesh and that not staying in what Jesus taught but going on is a sign of no fellowship.
Jesus was very clear about his pre-existence, about seeing him was the same as seeing the Father – to say these things don’t matter cuts at his base and hemorrhages the body of Christ. There is no wise way around this – Jesus claimed to come from God himself and was loved by the Father and the Father gave him this glory before the foundation of the world (John 17). To say there’s a better way than to admit what we can see he said is arrogance, plain and simple.
Jesus’ words will be how we’re all judged someday. What he said. When did he ever tell anyone to take it easy, it doesn’t matter what you believe? Did he ever say just wait around and maybe you’ll get it? I see an active man claiming to be sent by God telling people to actively follow him…I see this in the Bible, which is our only base for pure and unadulterated faith.
“– Jesus claimed to come from God himself and was loved by the Father and the Father gave him this glory before the foundation of the world (John 17). To say there’s a better way than to admit what we can see he said is arrogance, plain and simple.”
I haven’t seen any one of these points argued on here. I would even say they back everything Skip has said. Or maybe I’m missing a TW or conversation.
Is it possible we are not fully appreciating what “Oneness” means with God? I am not really writing these comments. My wife is. But we’re trying to be one in intent, in purpose (not there yet, by any means, but trying). So when you read these words, you think–That’s Thomas writing. We believe that’s an analogy to the kind of oneness Yeshua and the Father had. Except that they were in perfect union, so that when you see one, you see the other. They’re different. They’re not the same God. They are the Father and Yeshua, the Son of God, the Messiah. But they enjoy and exhibit complete oneness.
To say of Yeshua–This is the Son of God, the promised Messiah–does not make Him less than what He is. There are those in this community who seem to feel that not affirming Yeshua as God is wrong and dangerous thinking. Remember Peter, and his declaration: You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God. And remember Yeshua’s response. And follow.
Thanks to all for these engaging discussions!
Thomas, God the Father and God the Son are the only God there is. What you’re saying is that there is more than one God, aren’t you? See John 1:1…couldn’t be clearer. Add to that Philippians 2.
So, you are Binarian, not Trinitarian? The Ruach HaKodesh isn’t a separate God person as Trinitarianism proclaims?
“Why are we so anxious to have the answers?”
During my teenage years there was quite a lot of emphasis on the great tribulation and the secret rapture of “the Church” that was to take place before the tribulation began. Then an argument arose as to whether the rapture would be pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. I read two books (novels) on the subject one being entitled “In the Twinkling of an Eye” followed by ” the Great Tribulation”. I was sure that these books were telling the truth because they used scriptures throughout the narrative to prove their point.
That was sixty years ago. During more recent years I started reading the ‘Left Behind” series and thought they were great. I was sure that was how it was going to be. Oh how our paradigms change.
In even more recent years I have been influenced by teachers such as Monte Judah and my thoughts
re the secret rapture of the church have completely taken a U turn. Now thanks to Skip’s teaching I have been challenged to rethink a lot of the things that I was taught over the years from my earliest childhood, the doctrine of the trinity being one of them.
Not all of those things have been bad and they were taught by sincere people who Loved YHWH and served Him to the best of their knowledge at that time.
Thank you Skip for all your time and effort in challenging each and every one of us to search out for ourselves the truth or fallacy of the paradigms we hold.
“Has God said?”
These words should haunt us, when the scriptures are very clear and open that Jesus is God. If not, then I’m in the wrong crowd.
Dear Rob,
I appreciate your zeal and I understand your motive, but just so we are clear, the text that you reference doesn’t actually say, “Has God said?” It’s ironic that you should pick this text. Take a closer look at the Hebrew and see just what the serpent actually did say.
Most people interpret ap as not being “indeed” like the NAS.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/3-1-compare.html
Most people translate it as a question, which she then enters the conversation.
Unfortunately, in the this case most people are wrong.
That is what we are trying to discern, Rob. What is it that God has said via those Jewish folks who wrote the actual texts, to Jewish folks, within Jewish societies, in Jewish words (Hebrew primarily) set in Jewish surroundings, thinking in Hebraic mindsets.
While I understand what you are trying to say from a love of Yeshua, it is not enough simply to throw out proof texts of your choice attempting to validate ideas you’ve concluded from a paradigm that is completely different than those I just mentioned, the Jewish folks, speaking, thinking and living within a Hebraic mindset, rather than your Greek, Hellenized and traditional understanding of things you (and most of the rest of us) “learned” in Sunday School and evangelical flavored sermons.
As we’ve been learning, we have chosen to step outside the paradigm box of an evangelical, western “Christianity’ paradigm mindset. Once outside that particular dogmatic paradigm, the words recorded in Scriptures take on some new and very interesting shapes. Not non-biblical, as we study, just rather different fundamentally and significantly than the traditional views of the Christianity that most of us grew up in.
Parroting some preachers sermon or some lesson in a SS workbook isn’t enough. One must look to the text in the original languages, both Greek and the Hebrew that underlies the Greek. The Greek of the Messianic writings (“New Testament”) have definite and clear Hebrew foundations that 99% of my “Christian” upbringing has chosen to ignore, overlook, and work around in their dogmatic statements that are supposedly “very clear and open.” Yes, via the translated English version, it may very well seem to be clear and open to understanding. THAT is the problem that most in here are trying to discover and discern. Someone else translated, maybe and often, mistranslated according to their own paradigm, and the readers, unknowingly, accepted without criticism, THEIR interpretation and went on to form and disseminate dogmatic statements like your own.
It is difficult and arrogant to make dogmatic statements such that they allow no argument since they are so clear and open, supposedly. Yes, maybe clear as mud IF you really take the time to dive in to the meaning of the texts of the original languages. As we have been realizing there is room for several meanings of words rather than just the one we see in English translations. The difficulty and challenge to us is to step aside from the 100% dogmatic statements within our own particular paradigm that often accompany the many proof texts that are so easily throw out as an outline to irrefutably make a case of doctrine and dogma.
Thanks for your offerings in this blog, however, it just isn’t enough to delineate a set of proof texts of your choosing and then declare something is thoroughly, completely and irrefutable clear and set as ultimately and completely established. If you think that, then it is clear you could be encouraged to set your dogmatic utterances aside, just for a little while, and attempt a dive in to understanding the Hebraic view that ALL of the Scriptures emanate from. I think you will be surprised. It’s the journey many of us in here have been on for a while from being unsettled with the status quo of traditional teachings that are accepted and taught by the leaders and masses but just don’t quite ring full and true to the actual texts of Scriptures. We are not trying to deny anything necessarily. Just trying to figure out what these writings of 2000 ago plus are actually saying and as a result mean to us today, again, two thousand + years later. A daunting task to say the least. It is much, much more than simple proof texts thrown out attempting to clarify presumptive dogmatic stances.
I do hope you continue to join the ongoing discussion, conversation and journey in to unraveling the mysteries of the Scripture text. They are certain rich, full, deep and many times hidden in places that most of us are simply unwilling or unprepared to go in search.
Shalom
Michael, I lucked out because I’ve grown up around people who devoted themselves to the languages of the original Hebrew and Greek, who took courses in those languages and have studied for decades from the mindset of a whole book including both the Hebrew mindset such as Job’s discussion to the Luke of the gospel, who clarified many things in his brilliant language. I took some courses in the languages, too.
I understand learning about things that are unclear in the Bible. Sometimes the line between legalistic understanding and how God really does things does not even come close and other times these two divergent ideas seem to be the same thing. Being disciples is how we got here. But, as John the apostle clarified, two things stand out as being irrefutable when we claim to follow Jesus – his coming in the flesh, which remained pure after Christ’s death on the cross and his resurrection and the second thing – Jesus’ actual teaching. Paul said all healthy teaching goes back to Jesus’ words. I’m talking about his actual words; not only his life. He spoke words that we can see what he thought and what the Father wanted him to say to us. Jesus said to the Jews, “Before Abraham was, I am.” He also said that his apostles were to teach us all things about what Jesus taught and one of these apostles, John, said clearly, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
When any group of people claiming to follow Jesus Christ begins to question something as important as to who Jesus is in nature, it better have more than an answer of “I don’t know” in light of all of the clear documentation throughout the world and the volumes of church history and the distinctly clear language of the original languages in the Hebrew and the Greek. This questioning of something so delineated as the nature of Christ’s origin and who he is will be found to matter very much to those willing to ignore what is really true. I want to be around people who will work with me to prepare for my first meeting in the next life with this person.
I hear what you are saying, however, I also hear indictments from you toward others to align themselves with your specific dogma, as clear as it is to you. How do I take your statement that if I disagree with your dogmatic statements or simply am rethinking what I read in Scriptures, that you’ve put me in a camp run by the Adversary (capitol “A”?). Are you the final arbiter of the Scriptures or am I free to study to show myself approved? And when approved, must I only precede when I get yours or someone else’s stamp of approval?
It is difficult enough to dig and explore the texts. Am I required to graduate from your paradigm school to be in the right place? If I follow what it seems you are saying so far, I don’t need to study anymore. All I need to do to be “in” is to ask you. Is that what you are saying?
Heck no, Michael. I’m not the Messiah.
However, John the apostle was given authority by the Lord Jesus to say what he did. He’s clear. So are the other apostles. The two main things that mean following Jesus that place that KRISIS in place by God himself through the apostles by his word are:
1. Openly agreeing Jesus came in the flesh, who resurrected in the same sinless flesh (alive now).
2. Jesus’ words (and hence commandments) are the end of all teaching.
Most people here might agree with that.
The challenge then (as I understand what you’re saying as well as other here) is hundreds of thousands of people in church history and many more today acknowledged the Deity of Jesus not as a “doctrine of men”, but as a clear indication from the Apostles and from Jesus himself. If you are simply searching for Jesus the first time or with preconceived notions of any other sort having never really looked into who Jesus is, this would be completely different. In that case, I would say Jesus came from God and his teachings with his life are impeccable. Follow him.
But, you and most of the others are not simply naive searchers having never heard the scriptures about Jesus. You have heard him speak of his relationship with the Father and have heard the apostles describe him. So here’s the problem I’m only beginning to acknowledge here in an open forum – there is no clear acknowledgement of what Jesus taught about himself or what the apostles taught about him as being the final authority. His words are not up for debate, when he speaks so clearly. None of the apostles kept his Deity shrouded, but instead exalted him (this is why I quoted Philippians 2 and John 1 – clear and accepted texts throughout all of church history as well as entirely clear in the Greek language as to who Jesus really is).
So, is it any wonder the Jews of Jesus time wanted to stone him, when he made it clear that Abraham was beneath him? That Jesus existed by the same name Moses heard God call himself? Blasphemous? Only if you do not believe he is who he is. How well do we know him? I believe I know him well enough to call him God. But, this is all easily bordering on rejection of the Savior himself by recreating him in some other fashion.
Jewish emphasis or no, this is the basis of my faith – Jesus Christ, come in the flesh. Because I’m his disciple (Jesus’s words, you know), I have learned over time he is God. So…can we not understand his Deity yet and be his disciple? Sure. Is it likely that a group of followers of Jesus Christ who have diligently followed him for years (even decades) would come to the conclusion that Jesus was just a divine man and not God? No.
On the other hand, it is possible that another Jesus is being introduced. One that John would have said is a fake. That is as real as it gets and is what makes up some of the crazy world in which we live.
Rob,
In this statement by you,
“So here’s the problem I’m only beginning to acknowledge here in an open forum – there is no clear acknowledgement of what Jesus taught about himself or what the apostles taught about him as being the final authority. His words are not up for debate, when he speaks so clearly. None of the apostles kept his Deity shrouded, but instead exalted him (this is why I quoted Philippians 2 and John 1 – clear and accepted texts throughout all of church history as well as entirely clear in the Greek language as to who Jesus really is),”
did you mean “no MORE clear, or no clearER acknowledgement of what Jesus taught . . .?” If yes, then I must say I’ve seen many statements that are clear as a bell to me in English, but once dissection of the underlying Greek and Hebrew begins, clothed within their Hebraic paradigm they aren’t quite as clear and/or aren’t quite the same. Often times quite the opposite.
And I’m not quite clear on what you meant by “None of the apostles kept his Deity shrouded.” I don’t recall any “apostle” stating unequivocally that Yeshua was YHWH. He was repeated declared the Son of God, but I don’t recall any verses that name him God the Son, other than traditional Christian doctrine. I can only think the two are very different in meaning. What that meaning is provides us with the current question. God the Son seems to be doctrine. Son of God appears aptly to be biblical. Please point me to those verses, if you would, that the disciples never kept his deity shrouded.
“clear and accepted texts throughout all of church history”
. . . is precisely the point that all this is addressing. Simply because Church history is cited does not lend itself to veracity and truth. Simply because a people have collectively accepted something as norm for decades, centuries and even millennium in no way verifies it axiomatically, does it? That’s the wall Copernicus brought down with his study that opposed the beliefs of the masses of authorities of his day (I’m including the ‘church’ leaders of that day here.) Those in “authority” stated everything revolved around the earth. Copernicus said otherwise. How dare he go against the established and accepted beliefs of so many over so many, many years. How ludicrous!
And yet we all verify and believe Copernicus these days. We must all be heretics.
“So, is it any wonder the Jews of Jesus time wanted to stone him . . .”
No, ‘the Jews’ (at least CERTAINLY not the majority of them, no where near!) wanted to stone Yeshua. Quite the opposite. Tens of thousands of the Jews of Yeshua followed him consistently. These were the crowds that “the Jews” in power/control, (i.e. the Sanhedrin, Sadducees and select Pharisees) were actually afraid of because there were SO MANY of them! It was “the Jews” as understood by the writers and readers as those in control of (granted that authority by the Roman rulers) to viciously and cruelly rule and manipulate all the other Jews. These are “the Jews”, the minority who unrighteously and subversively sought to stop, hinder and ultimately kill Yeshua because Yeshua was enciting the masses against the immoral use of Torah and power by these insidious and evil rulers. These are “the Jews” that allowed the money changing to go on corruptly in the Temple and who Yeshua drove out.
If the “apostles” so deliberately confessed Yeshua as being the very same as YHWH, a concept that violently opposed everything Jewish at that time, why wasn’t there a MAJOR effort by the apostles to leave absolutely NO question about it. The only MAJOR theme I read of the apostles is that the Messiah has come, he is Yeshua, and that he is ushering in the Kingdom of God. Yeshua qualifies himself as such by never demonstrating anything contrary to Torah and thus, through his death, actually kills death itself via
his resurrection. Death not being able to hold him like the rest of us, since there was no sin that resulted in the power of death to hold Yeshua. Thus, he was the first born from the dead. Referring to the Kingdom of of Heaven, by the way, I am not referring to heaven professed by traditional Christianity. The Kingdom of God, which was alive and well at THAT TIME. It wasn’t some future distance place we were being pointed toward.
“On the other hand, it is possible that another Jesus is being introduced. One that John would have said is a fake. That is as real as it gets and is what makes up some of the crazy world in which we live.”
Another question: Is there a remote possibility that “the other Jesus” (and, by the way, “Jesus” is another Yeshua) is the one that began with Constantine’s “church” and has been around masquerading as the real Yeshua all these multiple centuries. Could it be that Christianity has created a new christ, Jesus, that is trying to replace the Jewish Yeshau HaMaschiah by replacing everything with any Jewish flavor (Sabbath, Appointed days, kosher instructions, and even Torah). Sounds a lot like ‘another’ everything. Replacement of everything.
That is pretty real. And, I agree, it is crazy. Why would someone want to invent a new religion (Christianity), claim it replaces what ALL of Yeshua’s followers actually lived by, claim the Jewish Scriptures as their own, yet pretty much obliterate the veracity of the “Old Testament” (actually the Tanak, that which Yeshua and his followers knew and followed) since the “New Testament” did not exist at that point? And why, as crazy as it sounds, state that the Torah, THE prime element of ALL the Jewish world, particularly that which Yeshua and his followers rested on be declared dead and void insinuating that Yeshua himself did away with it in favor of grace? Now THAT is crazy, don’t you think?
Anyway, the discussion continues. I hope.
Missed one:
You wrote: “His words are not up for debate, when he speaks so clearly.”
Again, that is exactly what this site/blog is after. Clarifying what his words and those written in Scriptures actually meant and mean today. When you say he speaks so clearly, that is an indication of what YOU have come to believe and convicted it means. That, in itself, does not qualify it as true, does it?
And his words are not up for debate? Then why, oh, why did Yeshua ASK “Who do YOU say that I am?”
I think Yeshua was asking them to join in the debate and ante up their studied evaluation. Or did I misinterpret that?
When Yeshua went in to the gathering places of the Jews of his day, the synagogues, that is exactly what all the people did in there, they debated, analyzed, and discussed the meaning of all of Torah. Mostly, anyway. No one debated that Sabbath should be observed. That was axiomatic because it WAS clear. What wasn’t clear and always under much debate was what constituted work. There are many, many, many applications and interpretations as to what YHWH meant by work, even today.
The Trinity doctrine is certainly not VERY clear in the least in biblical writings on the level of observing Sabbath. Are you, Rob, as strongly opinionated regarding following Sabbath as you are the Trinity issue? Just curious.
If not, why not? If so, Shalom. But, if not, I shain’t side you with the Adversary. Not just yet anyway. 🙂
“His words are not up for debate, when he speaks so clearly.”
BTW, when does Yeshua not speak so clearly? It seems he spoke in parables “not so clearly” to to mass of people. Even his close followers didn’t understand until he spelled it out for him. Why would the Messiah speak veiled, if you will, if he came to be so clear in his message. Why didn’t he explain it to the masses, the world, instead of only his close inner circle of followers. Questions.
As to your previous statements to Skip, if we have questions, should we not discuss them until we have a dogmatic, solid yes or no answer so as not to lead others astray? As a teacher, are you saying one must have all the answers before he can adequately teach? Don’t come down this path along side me until I have determined the safest and straightest and true way? Is there only one way down that path? If a teacher has to have all his answers pegged solid and tightly in a doctrine box, then why is it when I teach, I sense I actually learn more than those I’m teaching than when someone is teaching me?
The interesting thing about participating in the blog has been the questions. It seems the more questions I experience, somehow the more clear things become to me. A paradox? Maybe. Maybe just a paradigm shift in thinking.
I still love Yeshua. I still seek him. I still exert every effort in following him as he lays out the Torah as the target. His sinless qualification came only from following Torah. His actions validated it, that is, his faith. He trusted his Father so much that he obeyed him ultimately and completely. So when he asked someone to follow him, in fact, he was asking them to follow Torah. Torah reflected the complete image of his Father. When he followed Torah, he and his Father became one. If you saw Yeshua, you saw the Father, because everything Yeshua actually did, expressed who and what the Father was. He was IN the Father because he was walking in Torah. Torah expresses the very essence of the Father.
As I am in Yeshua’s steps, thus, life, I am in the Father’s life because I reflect his image. I have already been extended YHWH’s grace when I first did teshuva. i turned around from being off the path of Torah and began walking toward him. He granted me life. My faith isn’t a head affirmation, a mental exercise, it is evidenced by my faith, my action of obeying by turning my life toward YHWH, getting back on the path of Torah.
Ahh, legalism? Nay, nay. Love. I cannot do it because I need to earn his acceptance and hesed. I do it because he has and does love me with a fantastic kind of grace/love/kindness/favor that I am only beginning to comprehend, digest and understand. This hesed, has placed upon me his yoke, obligated to return to Him and others of my race (that’s pretty much everyone) the same hesed-love/grace/kindness/obligation that he has given to me.
Since I’ve been here for about a week, I’ve seen something I count as clear jewel questioned and I’m finding that considerably detrimental. That is what I meant about things not being clear. That was my experience, until just today. Though, I have read many of Skip’s words and have found a wisdom I find nowhere else, but God’s anointing.
These are the only two things I know that, once a person claims to follow Jesus, must be out of the question:
1. Openly agreeing Jesus came in the flesh, who resurrected in the same sinless flesh and he’s alive today.
2. Jesus’ words (and hence commandments) are the end of all teaching.
There are other things in there that are important. But, if a person is sincerely walking in this truth, it will be obvious more than not.
As for proof texts or clear delineations of Jesus’ deity, here are my favorites. These are not from an academic paper and I could do much more research, but these are accurate.
Philippians 2:16
John 1:1
Matthew 1:23
Isaiah 9:5
John 8
As for the Hebrew paradigm, there is good reason to believe it too smears the subjectivity upon Jesus’ own words as well as the words of the apostles. In Christ the two have been made one. I think it’s an error to assume one over the other. The Hebrew paradigm led to Jesus’ crucifixion and could do the same again. What I want is the raw Word by itself (by Himself). Understanding culture and all is fine, but I see frequently that is just because men (and women) do not want to just accept the sayings as they are.
Here’s a good one – “You have no need that anyone teach you.” How’s that for something everyone is trying to explain away and yet the promise of the New Covenant is just that – “No one will teach any more to his neighbor ‘Know the LORD’, for from the least to the greatest they will know me. For I will forgive their sins.”
To me, it’s become more simple lately – Jesus’ brilliance, both creating and destroying evil by his love on the cross. Now, that will bring some controversy, won’t it? God creating evil. But, he did. And if the powers of darkness had known the way the cross really worked, they would never have inspired his crucifixion.
Let me say this another way. God’s sovereignty let his heart be openly hurt thereby both opening all creation to the only real evil there could ever be, while openly forgiving us to give us a real choice: love like him or live like God is dead. Those who follow his Son’s commandments, loving like he does, know the real God. Those who live like God does not exist, either by shutting him out or by creating something else in his place, live a truly empty lie.
How my mind has been strengthened to know this has been God showing me his heart via the picture in the Passover and the Unleavened Feast.
I realize this view and explanation is not perfect. It does match scripture as I understand it.
I am at your access to reverberate through what I do understand to change what needs to be. Actually, I will appreciate it.
Just an insert here regarding your statement, “These are the only two things I know that, once a person claims to follow Jesus, must be out of the question:
1. Openly agreeing Jesus came in the flesh, who resurrected in the same sinless flesh and he’s alive today.
2. Jesus’ words (and hence commandments) are the end of all teaching.
Did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the others way back then fulfill your two requirements? If not, what is there status back then or even presently?
If you answer is that they looked forward the Jesus, then there are more serious issues that need answering, don’t you think?
Here’s the thing. I don’t live back then. But, if I did, it would be trust. The idea of uniting his time with ours is not possible. See my last sentence in this answer.
Since we live in this time, and Jesus sent John and John said those things, then that is what we have now. I’m not back in Abraham’s day. I have more revelation. Maybe more than John, because I have all of the 27 books of the New Testament and a lot more insight from fellow followers of Christ. Wiser than John? No one should go there, due to arrogance. More revelation in scripture and even science and in other ways than John? Maybe.
Jesus said that if the same light was in Sodom and Gomorrah as was in Capernaum, they would have repented. How’s that? Does that seem fair?
Well, it’s an answer, but I don’t see that it answers the question I asked.
Further, if we can’t “unite” with the time of Abraham, the same reasoning says we can’t unite with those in the time of Yeshau, John, etc., right? Your statement seems empty in that I can’t extract tangible meaning.
I’m not sure I’m following your reasoning. Doesn’t make sense to me. If we can’t understand or relate to understanding their situation long ago, why bother reading it in the first place?
Skip, I was answering Michael. Didn’t answer you, did I? Not sure what you’re talking about there.
It took me some time to answer because I went to breakfast and did weekly shopping.
To be even clearer in answer to your question, Michael (and Skip, if you’re interested) so there’s no doubt I’m answering about Abraham, here is what I understand –
“He [God] took him [Abram] outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Today, we have Jesus word’s sent through the apostles who all say that there are two things we believe to follow Jesus:
1. Jesus came in the flesh from God; not from man. He was a man and yet borne of a virgin, borne miraculously unlike any other man or woman has ever been borne. He came from Heaven and is God’s firstborn. Jesus’ preeminence over every created thing and his divine nature are all subjects the apostles dwelt upon.
2. All healthy teaching goes back to Jesus’ words. Not staying in Jesus’ words and going beyond means not having God.
We believe this word from God like Abram did to be in God’s favor.
I see you didn’t like the response I sent. What I mean is that light has increased as God’s grace has reached out even more in all the darkness. Jesus made that clear by his answer I gave above. We have more light and its unified in the cross of Christ. No longer two, but one man…as Paul said.
I am not sure if you meant me in your “I see you didn’t like the response.” I hope not. But I also noticed that you unsubscribed from Today’s Word, so maybe you have decided that we are all so confused here that it isn’t worth continuing. Again, I hope not. But since I am still researching this topic, I will not be commenting much until I have something new to say.
Rob,
Please do not leave. Freedom of one’s opinion and their right to articulate is one of the things that is slipping away in our American culture, and even more so in the christian church. Your leaving is akin to you erasing yourself because you can not erase the opinion (and, hence, the very presence of) others.
Your push back does so many good things. It demonstrates your strength of conviction, creates space for others to exercise THEIR convictions by pressing them to look closer, study, research, pray…maybe pray first, pray harder and more intensely.
I’m pretty much considered a lost cause/female heretic where ever i land, but i’ve become very strong in my beliefs and i’m willing to stand alone.
At some point that is where we all might be.
At least you here you will get great practice and if you stand alone you will be regarded with respect. And, perhaps, some bemusement.
But you will learn to appreciate the respect and you get used to the bemusement.
Brilliant.
“It’s comforting to know that God is completely in control. I’m not in a hurry to have the answers.” (Skip)
Why not? I am. Reason for my digging and seeking, knowing well all these years, I can only glean so much even from wonderful teachers like Skip and Bob G here. I still need to do my own researching to discover wonderful truths, and then to have them affirmed by these humble teachers is very fulfilling.
We are to hunger for truth firstly, before anyone can teach us anything, before we start digging, and then having to change our paradigm will come easy.
Upon realizing we are stuck in a rut, we need rescuing, simple, but if we so wish to rot in there, nothing anyone can do, until we shout for help, and someone hears us.
Skip, YHWH sent, has been wonderful in helping us get out of the rut of religion and erroneous doctrines and paradigms. A huge blessing to us folks here.
bp, I’m not leaving. I just decided to unsubscribe. Still read today’s word. 🙂
I’m only fairly certain Skip believes the two basic things I’m going on about. I find them critical for real disciple fellowship. I don’t have a problem if someone says they don’t believe those things and yet does not claim to follow Jesus. That sounds so…frikkin’ mean. But, Jesus is special – different than any person and his words call us to action like no others have the right to expect (me or Skip or anyone). As far as conversations, I have never had a problem talking to anyone about anything (literally).
Anyway, thanks for your appeal to me. Makes me feel special.
Bottom line, which I will not budge on – The Word was God and became flesh. All our answers come from the Word. I can’t bid anyone God speed who has the intelligence and grasp to read John 1:1 and doesn’t acknowledge that. It’s not up for grabs. How people react anywhere in life (here or in my everyday life) to this fact will affect me.
I don’t understand exactly all the ins and outs of how God the Father and God the Son are one along with the Holy Spirit. Maybe that’s why Jesus prayed in John 17 that we might be one as he and the Father are one, because he knew we need to understand that.
I do not even know what the Nicene creed is, since I’ve refused to pour over it and all of the other church councils that decide. I even have trouble with the Jerusalem council in the book of Acts where they seem to steer people away from real faith all over the outward forms of Judaism (like circumcision). However, created in God’s image, I have a voice and an attitude. God the Father has the Word and the Spirit. We were created in his image, so I believe the LORD our God is one God.
I appreciate your willingness to discuss but on quite a few things that you mention it seems to me that your refusal to look at the history leaves you with just your opinion and whatever you believe the Spirit has told you. That isn’t a good recipe for godly counsel, even by the standard of Proverbs. Before you decide that John 1:1 is “clear” to anyone who reads it, perhaps you should look at the creeds and see if you can make sense of them since they are the standard upon which your idea of the Trinity is built. And then look at the argument in the Greek text and the “rules” about the use of the indefinite article (or rather, lack of a definite article). Then consider that none of the church fathers actually expressed a doctrine like you suggest. In fact, there are several significant differences between the Fathers and the eventual doctrines of the Catholic Church (Nicene being one of the later). Then I suggest you do some research on the Hebrew texts, like read the work of Uriel ben-Mordechai. Then perhaps Flusser or Heschel.
On the Acts 15 counsel, I would strongly suggest Joseph Shulam, or perhaps the more easily accessible lectures of Bob Gorelik. Try Mark Nanos on Galatians for a serious look at the Greek text on the related topic. Then Leon Morris on John 17 (his commentary in NICNT).
After you have done a bit of research on the history of the ideas you present, ask yourself why the most compelling argument presented by theologians for belief in the Trinity is that “it is completely absurd. No man could have thought of this, so it must be from God” (a la Erickson).
I grew up under the teaching of George Westlake, who learned under Machen, who learned under Robertson (Word Pictures of the New Testament). I took three semesters of Greek, two under Westlake. Not an expert, but do not need to be a scholar to understand the simplicity of God’s kindness in Christ, whose humility is unsurpassed because he became a man and suffered thereby under the hand of his own creation.
How do I know this? Because of decades of studying God’s word and sheer commitment to him. None of my theological training has included philosophies of men or strict adherence to theologians’ party lines.
John’s authority came from Jesus. His wisdom came literally from hands on. His Greek, though common Greek, is clear he believed in Jesus deity as well as his Father in heaven who is a separate person yet still one with his only borne son.
I respectfully disagree that Jesus is not God, based upon the following understanding of the scriptures. These references sum up what I have been taught and this understanding coincides with everything I have understood, grasped and live by today. This changes how we see.
http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp025.asp
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=1
Skip, I looked at the other references (not thoroughly) for Acts, Galatians and John 17. I put the book by Morris on my wishlist and found John 17 commentary on Google books. Very nice. I disagree with the council about how to treat the Gentiles, because of what I believe is more important coming from this book (and other experience) – http://www.amazon.com/The-Torch-Testimony-John-Kennedy/dp/094023212X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405981588&sr=8-1&keywords=Torch+of+the+TEstimony
I will look more at the Galatians references tonight and tomorrow.
Thanks for all your time and effort.
Having read for the first time about Sabellianism, I might be more of that mind as long as its clear I believe Jesus Christ was 100% man and resurrected in the flesh as well he was God in the sense John 1:1 means it. Still studying and mulling over that. Makes sense, though, more than three different people in God. “The LORD our God is one God.”
“But while Sabellius maintained that there was but one divine person, he still believed the distinction of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, described in the Scriptures, to be a real distinction, and not a mere appellative or nominal one. That is, he believed the one divine person whom he recognized, to have three distinct forms, which are really different, and which should not be confounded.”
Sorry to drag this out. I’m beginning to believe clearly that no one really defined this very well from the beginning. I keep coming back to the scripture, which really illustrates how wonderful God the Father is and how much he loved us to send his Son. I believe this is all God. How he did it might not be as clear, but I know he came into this place as a man and resurrected as a man.
No one is greater. I hope you all believe that.