Servant Song
The vision of Obadiah. Thus says the LORD GOD concerning Edom—We have heard a report from the LORD, and an envoy has been sent among the nations saying, “Arise and let us go against her in battle”— Obadiah 1:1
Obadiah – We should be able to handle twenty-one verses, don’t you think? One of the shortest books of the Bible, Obadiah’s name was quite common in his time. Literally it means, “serving Yah” (no J please). His message is for Edom. 2 Kings 8:20-22 and 2 Chronicles 21:8-10 offer the historical background of the judgment God brings against Edom for gloating over the fall of Jerusalem.
Obadiah was a prophet of YHWH during the reign of Yoram [English = Jehoram] (848-841 BCE). He was a contemporary of Elisha. I’m guessing that most of us didn’t know any of this. And that poses an interesting question. Why don’t we know about this prophet (and all the other “minor” prophets)? I suspect the answer is two fold. First, it’s Old Testament. Most Christians have been taught (and assumed as the result of doctrine) that it is old and therefore, no longer relevant or important (unless is speaks of “Jesus”). After all, it’s really for the Jews. We have hopefully extinguished this bit of replacement theology. But there is a second, less obvious, reason. The arrangement of the books of the Bible is not chronological. Therefore, the books do not present stories that are co-located in the history of Israel. The fact that Obadiah is a contemporary of Elisha means that we should know his vision as well as we know the stories of Elisha. After all, they deal with the same circumstances. But because Obadiah is separated from Elisha by four or five hundred pages, we don’t see the connection. So we don’t realize the importance of both men during that time.
Obadiah has a vision. The word is hazon. From the root verb haza, the word is about seeing or beholding something. In this sense, Obadiah’s prophecy is not words scrolling across the sky. It is more like the perception of reality in a dream, and the subsequent accounting for the entire dream-like “movie” that provides content when awake. Of course, some of Israel’s prophets experienced this state while they were awake. But since the word is indirectly connected to a visual experience, it doesn’t operate the way our physical sight does. Obadiah “sees” what the Lord says and he speaks it to his audience. This is the reason that Hebrew prophets are often called “seers.”
Today we have adopted the Western world’s infected version of prophecy. First, we think prophecy is predictive. Secondly, we think prophecy is something akin to transmitting dictation. And thirdly, we think the prophet is an office in the church hierarchy. Wrong on all three counts. Prophecy is typically the way God sees things. That does not mean it is about the future. It is just God’s point of view whether it involves conditional events in the future or not. Secondly, as we now know, prophecy isn’t really about words. It’s an epistemological state that allows communication at a different level than words although it has to be translated into words for others to hear it. And finally, very few are called to this condition. It has absolutely nothing to do with their status or rank or even their state of belief. It is entirely God’s choosing. And just so we are quite clear about the role a prophet plays, nearly all of them died at the hands of the audiences they addressed. Still want the job?
The next obvious questions leave us slightly perplexed. Why don’t we see the same kind of “seers” today? Or do we? And what in the world does Paul mean when he speaks about prophets in the assembly?
If God called you with a vision, how would you know it was God? And what would you do when everyone else thought you needed a session with the therapist?
Topical Index: prophet, vision, hazon, haza, Obadiah 1:1
Skip, for many years when I would pray for people I would receive words of encouragement or warning about different things going on in their lives. This has been an area of concern to me as I am now learning truth about the Word.
My heart was always seeking and desired to walk upright and in truth, so my question is what the heck was I receiving?Was I so out in left field that I had opened myself to words from the enemy, or things I made up in my head?
Please give me any insight you may have. Many people came to me and asked for prayer and for guidance in their lives. While I didn’t just make things up or think that I was all knowing I did try to walk obedient to what I felt was shown to me according to words I spoke or even when I didn’t receive anything.
As many as have come out of the church I am sure others have experienced and walked in this same area.
Ah sO bad I feel says Obadiah, nobody can hear what I say 🙂
Rev. 1:17 “And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead…”
Dan. 8:15 “And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, AND SOUGHT FOR THE MEANING…”
Dan.8:17,18, 27 “So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face… Now as he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground…And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days…”
Dan. 9:7,8, 9 “And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, AND THERE REMAINED NO STRENGTH IN ME; for my comeliness (vigor – margin) was turned in my to corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words; and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. ”
Dan. 10:14, 17 “And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb. … there remained no strength in me, NEITHER IS THERE BREATH LEFT IN ME.”
Ez. 1:28 “…This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face…”
Is. 6:5 “Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone… for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.”
Acts 9:4,6 “And he (Saul) fell to the earth… And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?”
2Peter 1:20,21 2:1-3 “Knowing this first, that prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. But there were false prophets also among the people, EVEN AS THERE SHALL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU, who prively shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; BY REASON OF WHOM THE WAY OF TRUTH SHALL BE EVIL SPOKEN OF. And through covetousness shall they with feigned word make merchandise of you; whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”
So if a person is a true prophet, the way I read it, they are going to be in for a tough time, and that is BEFORE, as Skip says, they are going to experience the (inevitable) ire of their audience. Since when did a true prophet ever get to enjoy the adulation and appreciation of their audience because they were sent with SMOOTH WORDS?
Instead, I want to ask those who claim to be a ‘prophet’ some questions: “Did you even have a vision? “According to the experience of true prophets as recorded on scripture, was your first reaction to vision (if you did think you had a real one) to fall on your face just like you died, and faint and be sick and feel your comeliness turn into corruption and have no strength left and fall into a deep sleep and not have any breath in that vision, no matter how long it may have been and when you did get strength back was your first reaction to say “Woe is me! and tremble in astonishment and sheer terror and not know what you were supposed to do about it, and NOT UNDERSTAND IT and have to ask and be told what it meant, and surely did not attempt to PRIVATELY INTERPRET IT?”
I have also noticed that visions tended to be accompanied by attending angels who were sent to ‘show’ meanings and interpretations and answer questions, of which it seems the confused and distraught prophets had a lot of. And, I think the most often missed point of all has to be that a true prophet actually has visions, and not because they want them, either. They don’t get ‘words’ to privately interpret; not anywhere in scripture can I find it. And also, 100% OF THE TIME, THEIR PROPHECIES CAME TRUE.
Deut. 18:22 “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”
Ezekiel 13:1-10 contains strong words against false prophets (I sure would be afraid to be one!) and 1John 4:1 cautions “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out onto the world.”
When I hear someone try to tell me about such-and-such ‘school of the prophets” (which were started in Elisha’s day as religious schools TAUGHT BY A PROPHET) i cannot help but think instead of the school that Harry Potter went to to learn the art of divination, of which I think I have seen a belly-full of, lately.
No offense to Babs, of whom it is obvious to me that you have a true heart for God! Girl, I still am all over the place, and most days I spend taking a step and getting called on it, just like you. The hard way is the way I learn most of it, it seems. But we are going to get there!
None taken. Of all the things that I have eve walled in or around ,and even through to say I am speaking the voice of the Lord, well that scares the daylights out of me. Never have I run and said thus saith the Lord and never will I. Just the desire to serve in obedience and truth are my desire
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to man. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. 1COR14.
Obviously, there is a massive difference between the Office of the Prophet and the gift of prophecy. Skip wrote: “Prophecy is typically the way God sees things”. I enjoy hearing from Abba and telling others what He thinks of them. I leave the conviction bit to HG, He’s really good at it. It is always edifying the way it comes to me. I always love Him more, when I see how He loves others that I know. There is a place, a very good place for the gift of prophecy in the body…..But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men……….that the church may be edified.
There is a lot of stupidity around these gifts, but done well it is a marvelous gift that allows us to strengthen others. How much of that do you want? Don’t throw the baby out with the diapers. This is only a 70 or 80 year internship; relax a bit and breathe the breath. ;-D
My internship is coming to a close. I need to press in a bit and not be so relaxed. Time is short. And I doubt that anyone who comes to me and says, “Well, God told me this and that about you” can actually qualify as a navi, a Hebrew prophet, since most of those guys suffered tremendously, were summarily rejected, died without recognition and didn’t actually want the job.
This makes sense. If prophecy is seeing as God sees and experiencing his emotions, then the prophet is, in a sense, taken to where God exists, outside of time and space. I think there have been so many flesh prophets because people want something so bad they convince themselves they have it. Then there is the need to encourage those with true prophetic gifts, providing the safety of mature persons who know scripture to judge the prophecy. And unless the prophet to be has an experience of biblical proportions, I would suggest dropping the, “thus saith the Lord,” for, “This is what I believe the Holy One is saying.”
Just a small, tiny (but important – critically important) little note. In my book, God, Time and the Limits of Omniscience, I demonstrate that the Hebrew idea of God is not a being “outside” of time. In fact, that common expression depends on a Greek fallacy (the spatialization fallacy) that has been part of Christian thinking since the early fathers adopted Parmenides as their guide to the idea of “perfect.” Otherwise, good comment on “prophecy.” But this little correction makes a HUGE difference when we rethink God’s involvement with His people.
So are you saying that the gift of prophecy Paul speaks of is different then someone who is actually called to be a Prophet and is still valid as a gift from God for his people? Because first looking at this it seemed like you were discounting the gift of prophecy like someone could not prophecy in the way Paul speaks of it if they are not persecuted for what they said etc.
Let me try to be clear. Prophecy is a temporary action of God through the agency of a man or woman, usually who not only does not want the responsibility but ALWAYS who suffers as a result of God’s choice. See Heschel on this. This is what we call the “gift” of prophecy. It is hardly a “gift” in the usual sense. We might call it the “curse” of prophecy, and if we did use that term, fewer people would be running around claiming it. The “office” of the Prophet is not an “office” at all. I don’t choose it nor can I work my way up the ladder to be promoted into being a prophet. The Greek, prophetes, contains the clue about what it really means. I wrote about this some time ago. A prophet is NOT a prognosticator. He or she is someone who unpacks what God has revealed. The message isn’t his, nor the timing or the delivery (try sitting naked in the street for 3 years and see what happens). The prophet unveils God heart in ways that are usually quite shocking and often anti-social. But it is NOT something I choose. It is the temporary use of who I am by the Spirit of God for His purposes. All this nonsense about “I am a prophet” is based in the Greek idea of an oracle (which I also wrote about).
I understand this and have read your discussion on oracles but what about what Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians where prophecy edifies, exhorts and comforts your fellow believer. I’m not saying that one doing this would call them self a prophet, but God would speak through them. Something that edifies, exhorts and comforts doesn’t seem like it would bring persecution on the person giving it. It doesn’t seem the same as what Obadiah, Elisha and others had to do. Are you saying it is all the same thing?
“If God called you with a vision, how would you know it was God?”
Hmmm
I don’t think we could know for sure.
Maybe it was one of the other “sons of God” that we see in the Book of Job?
Or Ha Satan himself?
How would we know?
To paraphrase Bill Bullock, if a word or vision was from God it would be consistent with torah as lived out by Messiah. However, mentally ill persons are quite sure of their delusions because the dysfunctional neurochemistry/neurobiology creates that reality. We would be up a creek if Abraham’s binding of Isaac (the akedah) had been a schizophrenic hallucination.
Technically speaking, what the prophets experience are often schizophrenic hallucinations.
That does not mean, however, that they are not experiencing God’s will.
It will be interesting if we can ever examine a prophet via fMRI or rPET in the midst of prophesying. Perhaps the brain screens out material, for our own good when it works, and as Bila’am’s eyes were opened to the angel with the drawn sword, so it is a matter of removing that barrier.
Actually, visual hallucinations are rare and auditory hallucinations are much more common among schizophrenics. I read the book, “The Beautiful Mind,” about Nobel Prize winner John Nash, and the film took liberties in that Nash only experienced auditory hallucinations. I think that creativity is just harnessed insanity, and some don’t do such a good job of it 🙂
Skip, thank you so much for your reply. I have not read that book. My understanding is that God created time and space as a sort of temporary stage for mankind, and that he is beyond the realm of time and space in the same way a playwright or director is separate from the script and characters, yet connected. Once I took a scriptwriting class, and it seemed my characters came to life in my mind and would act and have conversations with each other, and it was as if they became real people.
I don’t see that God knows the future, but that he exists in a place without limitations and constraints of movement, understanding and being. When we connect with the divine, I believe we touch something outside our realm of existence. Perhaps the tohu v’bohu was also without the demarcation of time as well as space?
I have a question for you. We know that pantheism refers to God being synonymous with creation, and panentheism refers to God being in his creation (in essence, not just in expression) and also outside his creation. Is there a term to describe that we live in God, as, “in him we live and move and have our being?”
Rabbi David Fohrman had an interesting parsha video where he suggested that God carved out a place within himself when he created the heavens and earth, in the way that the womb is a carved out space with the mother where the fetus, a separate being resides, connected by the umbilical cord. This fits with bara meaning, “to make fat,” and, “to shape by cutting.” He discussed how the mishkan was a mirror image, in that man carved out a place for God within our realm.
Even Fohrman can be Greek. Please read the book. It demonstrates that the Christian idea of the creation of time and space (not the Hebrew idea) stands behind most of our conceptualizations, and is based on Parmenides concept of unity and perfection, not on the biblical idea of a God who is intimately involved in His creation. The implications are shocking but unavoidable once you realize just how Greek our view of time really is. Your understanding of the Genesis account is heavily influenced by centuries of Greek-Christian thought.
Okay, will order the book. Could we assume God’s creation includes its laws, or rather blessings, as the blessing to be fruitful and multiply? I believe the incursion of sin altered the laws of nature, but I don’t know how we can determine this.
“The purest example of the Greek desire to comprehend, a desire which in him would have nothing to do with what was not strictly knowable.” This quote in reference to the philosopher seems to capture perfectly, “…Greeks seek for wisdom.”
Is this part of the question of a God that is all-knowing vs. a God that is all-good? I see this as a false dichotomy, in that our vantage point is limited.
I know that Judaism has also been influenced by the Greek philosophers, namely via Philo and the Rambam.
I wish I had the science background to understand theoretical physics, but it appears to explain some of these questions.
My dilemma for the day is how can the Rabbis claim that their conception of God
Is monotheistic in the strictest degree
When in the Book of Job we find Yahweh in Heaven with the “Sons” of God
Who are not human
And Ha Satan himself who seems a lot more like God than any man I know
All depends on what we mean by “son” and “divine.”
Ok
divine
of, from, or like God; or a god.
synonyms: godly, angelic, seraphic, saintly, beatific
Ha Satan was apparently created by God and is therefore his son
He is godly in that he gets permission from God before he acts (Job)
Ha Satan is like God in that he lives in Heaven at least part of the time
He is godly in that he has supernatural powers, granted by God
In my view, Ha Satan’s character is not unlike the Greek Goddess Athena
Except that Ha Satan is a male son of God
I would think that if one is a son in the sense of following, rather than in a biological sense, that one ceases to be a son when one ceases to follow, as a talmid was considered the son of his rabbi only as he was learning from him and following in his ways? I assume the seeking permission was not an act of godliness, but a legal requirement.
I agree, but my main point is that Ha Satan is a god created by Yahweh who is also a god
That’s two gods, one creator and one subordinate; like Athena, in the Greek worldview
And Jesus, it seems to me, thinks he is one of these gods too; like the sons in Job
Like in the movie Son of God
I don’t see YHVH as a god-machine, creating gods. Man is b’tselem elohim, in the image. Angels’ abilities that man does not have were all subject to divine direction. Ha-satan usurped his position. My dog has jumped up on a chair and gotten a pizza off the table, but he cannot drive the car; there are limitations.
I agree angels is preferred to gods in the Hebrew worldview, but angels have a positive connotation and Ha Satan is no angel 🙂
Yes, because a malach is a messenger, and hasatan is no longer a messenger of YHVH. Well, maybe in a sense he is, as every courtroom needs a prosecuting attorney.
In 2 Corinthians 4, Paul refers to Satan as “god of this world”. What does it mean that Satan is god of this world? The one God does not send evil messages as I understand it. But Ha Satan terrorizes Job with his supernatural powers. Ha Satan controls the forces of nature and tortures men, women, and children. To refer to Ha Satan as a messenger is something of an understatement in the Book of Job. I would tend to psychologize Satan on a personal level and see him as the Yetzer Hara. But Satan does not appear to represent the Yetzer Hara in the Book of Job.
If we try to think of what the Hebrew word might have been behind the Greek, I come up with elohim, which means, “mighty ones,” or, “powers.” So, hasatan is a might one or a power of this world. Elohim does not always refer to a divine being; it also refers to powerful persons like kings and judges who had the power of life and death.
“And thirdly, we think the prophet is an office in the church hierarchy.”
I can certainly attest to that, having seen and experienced that even in a “Torah”
assembly, where such are lifted high in their midst, and their word taken as authoritative without being checked nor confirmed, but accepted by those who
belong to that circle of followers.