Say When?
But I shall remain in Ephesus until Pentecost. 1 Corinthians 16:8 NASB
Pentecost – Tomorrow I will be in Ephesus. Yes, that’s right. The real place in modern day Turkey that was once a Roman port city. I will think of Paul’s statement. Paul intended to remain in Ephesus until Pentecost. Wait a minute! Until when? Paul, a Jewish rabbi, counts his days according to a religious holiday that wasn’t honored by the then non-existent “church” for another two hundred years? No, I am quite sure Paul wasn’t staying in Ephesus until Pentecost. He was staying in Ephesus until the Jewish festival of Shavu’ot. Pentecost did not exist as a religious holiday when Paul was alive. He measures his year according to the Jewish sequence of festivals. Shavu’ot is one of the three pilgrim festivals (from Exodus 34:22 and Deuteronomy 16:9-10). It is fifty days after the start of Pesach (Leviticus 23:16), a celebration of the giving of the Torah on Sinai. Observant Jews gathered at the Temple to honor God giving His instructions to the people.
Now let’s consider the implications of Sha’ul’s statement. First, it is obvious that Sha’ul is still following the Jewish calendar. That raised the question, “If Paul converted to Christianity, why would he continue to observe Jewish festivals?” You might reply, “Well, Pentecost is the day the Church began when the Spirit was poured out on all men.” But Acts 2 tells a different story. Why was the crowded gathered in the first place? Answer: Shavu’ot. They weren’t there to celebrate Pentecost. They were there to celebrate the fiftieth day after Passover. All Jewish. In fact, Pentecost is nothing more than the Greek term for “fifty.” Sha’ul plans to return to Jerusalem in time to celebrate this Jewish pilgrim festival just as he has done all of his life.
Secondly, Sha’ul intends to participate in Shavu’ot. That’s why he’s going back to Jerusalem for that date. If he had converted to Christianity, why would he wish to attend a Jewish festival? I thought the “law” was over. I thought “Paul” preached the good news that we are under grace, not “law.” Then why is he anticipating Shavu’ot? Shouldn’t he actually be saying that he intends to keep Pentecost in Ephesus? After all, there is nothing about the Christian idea of Pentecost that demands you should be at the Temple in Jerusalem. The only reason for going to Jerusalem on that date is to participate in the Jewish festival. If Paul were Christian, he should be going to Rome to celebrate with Pope Peter, right?
Finally, the very fact that Paul even acknowledges Shavu’ot highlights the incongruity of the claim that Paul abolished Torah. If Torah doesn’t apply to those under grace, then who cares about Shavu’ot, whether you call it by its proper Hebrew name or by a Greek substitute? And don’t try to convince me that God substituted Pentecost for Shavu’ot after Acts 2. The LXX recognizes that pentekostos is the translation of Shavu’ot. There is no doubt whatsoever that the Greek word means this Jewish festival. So how do Christian theologians get around these implications? Simple. They create a new category of believers called “Jewish Christians.” “In 1 Cor. 16:8 Paul says that he will stay at Ephesus until Pentecost. He probably has the Jewish feast in mind, as in Acts 20:16, where he wants to be in Jerusalem by Pentecost, possibly to take part, with Jewish Christians, in the Jewish celebration.”[1] The only problem is that there were no “Jewish Christians” in the first century—nor have there ever been any! Ever! There are Jews who have converted to Christianity (after Christianity became a religion in the 3rd century), but there are no “Jewish” Christians because one cannot be Jewish as a way of life and be Christian at the same time. Ethnicity isn’t the issue. I can be a Russian Christian or an Italian Christian or an American Christian because the nationality doesn’t interfere with my beliefs (although it certainly influences what I believe). But I cannot be a pagan Christian. I cannot live a way of life that is completely contrary to my religious commitment and at the same time claim that I am a follower of that commitment. In the same way, I could have been born a Jew and by some incredible accident decided to adopt a Christian theology, but I cannot live as an observant Jew and also be a Christian. A “Jewish Christian” is an oxymoron. And Paul was not an oxymoron.
Sha’ul intends to go back to Jerusalem to celebrate a Jewish festival as he is instructed by Torah, God’s word to the Jews. Why? Because Sha’ul is a follower of the Way, a sect of Judaism.
Topical Index: Pentecost, Shavu’ot, Jewish Christian, 1 Corinthians 16:8
[1] Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (826). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.
“Sha’ul intends to go back to Jerusalem to celebrate a Jewish festival as he is instructed by Torah, God’s word to the Jews. ”
Again we are left with the tantalizing question: If the Jews are to live by Torah, what instructions are the Gentiles to live by? Or are they at liberty to make up their own rules as they go along?
Perhaps the term is, religion without obligation, or maybe preferential obligation.
If Gentiles are grafted into the culture and commonwealth of Israel, then they do not follow their own rules. They adopt the expectations of the culture they join–Israel. No difference. One of the central problems of Christian teaching is that the “religion” is adapted to the recipient culture instead of the individual adopting the culture of the Bible.
“One of the central problems of Christian teaching is that the “religion” is adapted to the recipient culture instead of the individual adopting the culture of the Bible.”
Whose teaching do you have in mind? Was it ‘official’ Christian teaching, or merely someone speaking his own mind on this?
The Torah was given to everyone that was at Sinai “and those that weren’t”. Dt. 29:14-15 So that was all the tribes, and foreigners, including Judah, but not just Judah. They are the Feasts of YHWH and while the Jews are part of Israel, they are not all of Israel.
I think the same rules apply, but not all of us are as rule oriented as others
Paul seems to have been a kind of Christ mystic in a way that seems a bit strange or “other” to me
I tend to see Jesus as a role model for Hebrews, Hindus, Christians, or anybody else who wants to live a Godly way of life
But Hebrew is a specific discipline IMHO
At this point in my walk with my Savior, it doesn’t matter to me too much what Paul was doing while on this earth, nor even what Jesus was “observing”. If those things mattered, I would have long ago attempted to learn of them, and then try to be perfect as it was said that Jesus was perfect in observing them. But that didn’t happen. I am not a Jew, nor am I required to behave as one does, or did long ago.
It almost seems that the message of this article desires to bring to naught the teachings/beliefs of the Christian era, and replace them with Torah ONLY!! I am not a Jew, nor will I ever be one. I am a Christian who was born out of the sinful flesh, into the spiritual realm wherein Jesus dwells forever, therefore being released from “keeping Torah” in the flesh.
My opinion of this article is that the author is attempting to place in his life what is impossible to obtain……replacing the Gospel message and spirit which are God’s plan of salvation for every one who believes….. which Jesus fulfilled at Calvary’s Cross…….with the once-observed scriptures that were operative before Christ.
Not by works, no matter how religious they may sound.
But it DOES matter how Jesus lived and practiced. John says:
“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. (1 John 2:1-6 ESV)”
The Gospel wasn’t introduced at the time of Jesus’ birth or death. The entire Old Testament is saturated with promises and prophecies and foreshadows of the Messiah. The New Testament without the old is irrelevant and without foundation.
Does it really make sense to believe that God would promise to bring forth a (Jewish!) Messiah through the (Jewish!) line of David, only for that Messiah to come and then abolish the entire Jewish way of worship and start an altogether new religion, abolishing the law which was implicitly commanded by God himself, and which Israel had been punished and exiled for NOT keeping several times before?
There is a beautiful continuity in God’s word if we are willing to examine it without the blinders of our prior theological commitments. You cannot discount the role of politics and money and sin, even in the formation of many of our precious “doctrines”. But God reveals the truth to those who are committed to knowing Him.
My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. (Proverbs 2:1-5 ESV)
We must be willing to dig and scour and sift and seek, and get our fingernails dirty in the process! Treasure isn’t found scattered on the surface. But the excavation is well worth it.
Hi Helen,
My sentiments regarding Paul are similar
On the other hand, Jesus and Paul both considered the Torah
To be the only true source for understanding God’s will
And for understanding the importance of Moses in God’s plan
Hi Helen,
I certainly believe I understand what you are stating here. However, I have a question for you to consider. I grappled with this for some time myself.
Regarding Yeshua (Jesus) qualifying to “die for our sins” required certain behavior, correct? That behavior was clearly dictated by “All Scripture,” which for Yeshua and his company consisted of what we call the Old Covenant, delineated as Torah. It was his Torah observance, done perfectly, that qualified him uniquely to be considered without sin, correct? In other words, had Yeshua not perfectly observed Torah (what other standard did Jews observe?) would he still be eligible to be qualified as the “sacrifice” for our sins?
If this is true, then Yeshua certainly obtained that status by works, did he not? He couldn’t, like any of us, just show up, make declarations about who he was and expect everyone to accept it without some observable and visible evidence. Obeying Torah, the Godly standard of righteousness, is the works of Yeshua’s faith that marked him as totally qualified to sacrificially die to kill death such that death no longer has hold over us or the cosmos, correct? He didn’t just acknowledge it in his head, he DID it and was seen by all, undeniably.
So, if works were so important in Yeshua’s life, how can working out Torah obediently not be of utmost import to each one of us. Let me point out that I am in no way speaking about atonement for our guilt, but about the character of our actions (our faith) becoming more and more in line with the standard outlined in the Torah. Without Torah, who, what, when or why do we attempt to walk righteously after Yeshua. It was the Torah that Yeshua demonstrated, showed, and explained via his entire life. You want to know what righteousness, obedience, Godliness, and holiness looks like all you have to do is look at Yeshua’s life, who specifically, deliberately and willfully “worked” out Torah in his life.
Please consider separating the atoning work of the “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world” with his willful choice of always obeying and following Torah because it certainly pleased his Father. If you think he couldn’t do anything else besides be holy because he was God, then that raises other larger questions about his humanity and qualifications as Israel’s Messiah, doesn’t it? Aren’t we called and obligated to do and work in that same direction and guidance of Torah as Yeshua did?
Thanks for sharing. I haven’t recognized your name on here before, so it’s always great to meet new lovers of Yeshua. Hope you will continue to participate in the ongoing discussion.
Michael: Regarding Yeshua (Jesus) qualifying to “die for our sins” required certain behavior, correct?
Helen: Since you have included questions in your reply to my post, Michael, I will attempt to reply to some of them. I have never thought that Jesus had to “qualify” to die for my sins by his “certain behavior”.
Michael: That behavior was clearly dictated by “All Scripture,” which for Yeshua and his company consisted of what we call the Old Covenant, delineated as Torah. It was his Torah observance, done perfectly, that qualified him uniquely to be considered without sin, correct?
Helen: Not according to what I believe is sin. If Torah observance qualifies one to be considered without sin then why did Jesus, Who knew no sin, have to suffer and die for Sin??
Michael: In other words, had Yeshua not perfectly observed Torah (what other standard did Jews observe?) would he still be eligible to be qualified as the “sacrifice” for our sins?
Helen: If observing Torah qualified Jesus to be the sacrifice for our sins, then there must have been (and still are today) millions of others who could have died as sacrifice for our sins.
Michael: If this is true, then Yeshua certainly obtained that status by works, did he not?
Helen: As far as I can understand the message about Jesus, His primary status was that He is the Son of God, born without human father, and that He has existed eternally as the Son of God.
Michael: He couldn’t, like any of us, just show up, make declarations about who he was and expect everyone to accept it without some observable and visible evidence.
Helen: If He did not (but He did) make verbal declarations about who He was, He certainly did make many observable and visible evidence of it.
Michael: Obeying Torah, the Godly standard of righteousness, is the works of Yeshua’s faith that marked him as totally qualified to sacrificially die to kill death such that death no longer has hold over us or the cosmos, correct?
Helen: Every place in your reply, Michael, that you have put a question mark asking me to agree that you are correct, causes me to wonder if you are a bit unsure that you are sharing truth with me. 🙂
Michael: He didn’t just acknowledge it in his head, he DID it and was seen by all, undeniably.
Michael: So, if works were so important in Yeshua’s life, how can working out Torah obediently not be of utmost import to each one of us.
Helen: I have no idea!! I don’t even know what the phrase “working out Torah” means!!
Michael: Let me point out that I am in no way speaking about atonement for our guilt, but about the character of our actions (our faith) becoming more and more in line with the standard outlined in the Torah. Without Torah, who, what, when or why do we attempt to walk righteously after Yeshua. It was the Torah that Yeshua demonstrated, showed, and explained via his entire life. You want to know what righteousness, obedience, Godliness, and holiness looks like all you have to do is look at Yeshua’s life, who specifically, deliberately and willfully “worked” out Torah in his life.
Helen: Michael, my replies to you are not meant to be flippant or disrespectful, but what you seem to be implying here is that “works” will bring us into a relationship with Jesus.
Michael: Please consider separating the atoning work of the “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world” with his willful choice of always obeying and following Torah because it certainly pleased his Father. If you think he couldn’t do anything else besides be holy because he was God, then that raises other larger questions about his humanity and qualifications as Israel’s Messiah, doesn’t it?
Helen: I have no idea!!
Michael: Aren’t we called and obligated to do and work in that same direction and guidance of Torah as Yeshua did?
Helen: I share with you these scriptures as reply to that question:
Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Hi again, Helen,
Sorry I haven’t responded earlier. It’s due to me being right in the middle of a new house remodel and moving at the same time. Whew! I’m getting too old to do this I think.
I was intending to answer your generous response to my contribution to the discussion. However, after reading your responses to others, I don’t think I can say anything that you would be interested in.
In that light, thank you for your prayers. If it’s OK with you I will also pray they same in your regard. I certainly hope, plan and exert my energies to prospering in my knowledge of and obedience to Yeshua via Torah observance as absolutely best I can. Shalom.
Thanks for the opportunity to hear from you.
Hello, Michael!
I am happy to receive your post!! I understand what it is to be in the middle of a new house and moving. My husband and I moved several times during our marriage of 64 years. If he hadn’t gone to be with the Lord 6 years ago, it would have been 70 years last April.
But I digress……..your gracious and love-filled reply to me has been a sweet blessing this morning! And although we do not view the scriptures in like manner, we are still one as we love and obey what God has given to each of us in Christ Jesus.
🙂
Nice smile!! : )
Helen, Thanks for sharing your opinion which, I am sure, is the opinion of most followers of Christ. I’m interested to know how you came to find this site.
Please please try to stop… stop and listen to what Dr. Moen has been trying to get us to understand for years now: Sha’ul (Paul) is a follower of the Way, a sect of Judaism. That’s the bottom line. Paul was ALWAYS a Jew… he never denied being a Jew nor stopped following the Jewish (God’s) Appointed Feasts.
Paul, nor Christ, started any new religion, no “new” testament. The testaments should have titles such as “First Testament” and “Second Testament.” The New Testament IS NOT TEACHING SOME NEW RELIGION from Judaism.
I am so FOREVER grateful that Skip has chosen to share what he used to believe about being “Christian,” about what he knows now and that he is humble enough to realize and admit that he, too, IS STILL LEARNING.
Daria, I have no idea when or how I “found this site”. It was many years ago. The way the content was going here, plus the care of my very sick husband, caused me to stop reading or participating.
Thank you for your interest!! : ) and God bless you as you walk Hand in hand with Him!!
Hi Helen.
Unlike the others here, I do seem to recall that you have posted before, so I suspect you have been reading this site for awhile, albeit with no agreement.
There is a very simple problem with your reasoning. If Torah and the behavior it inspires, is unnecessary to the Christian walk, then ALL reference in the “new testament” to ANY “old testament” scripture needs to be removed from the Bible as irrelevant. It will make a much abridged edition and should simplify reading for any persons of the same persuasion.
Hello, Suzanne,
No, I have not been reading at this site…….not for many years…….. It appears that I should not have posted to it now, either. There is so much stated that I do not agree with (or do not understand) that it would be impossible for me be of any value to you.
I do know Whom I have believed, though, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him………to the Day of His return. May He be as gracious to each of you, and as understanding as He is to me!!!
We all seem to have been sidetracked here by comments and missed the importance of Skip’s point: Jewish Christians, just like pagan Christians are oxymora. The categories cannot exist because they are incongruous and self-contradictory. What we are looking for is pre-rabbinic first century Judaism. As far as I can see, that type of Judaism doesn’t exist in any structured religious system of today, whether it calls itself Judaism, Christianity or even messianic/Hebraic root Christianity. Many of us, who desire to return to the understanding of those first century followers of the Way, are learning that we must sidestep the doctrines that have been established since that time by BOTH Christianity and Judaism.
Your comment is right on target.
And that is what I did in what I posted. “we must sidestep the doctrines that have been established since that time by BOTH Christianity and Judaism.”
I agree here with Skip and Suzanne. There is only one Way to live and we have to search scripture for that Way minus what we thought we knew before. Also the Way is for everyone. YHWH taught His Set Apart Way to the Hebrew people and specifically said in Exodus 19:6 that they were to be a Kingdom of ‘Priests’. The hebrew word is kohen. “The word kohen comes from a root meaning a base such as the base of a column. The koheniym (plural of kohen) are the structure support of the community. It is their responsibility to keep the community standing tall and straight, a sign of righteousness “, Jeff Benner. Could it be perhaps that in one of YHWH’s multiple purposes that he makes Israel His people to be an example or standard of righteousness for the rest. That their lifestyle a.k.a the Set Apart Way would draw others from the outside so that they too would know who is YHWH. We know our Father loves to give and show examples of how to live. He has used many people to do this and he could use a whole nation to do it too. Here in Matt 5:14-16 Yeshua ( who keeps Torah and is Hebrew) speaks about followers of the way as a light that cannot be hidden and their purpose is to not be hidden. They are to be seen so that men may give glory to our Father in heaven. Please consider this. Titles and names like Jew and Christian have caused serious issues and major divisions. Yes there are a people who are by birth Hebrew and live a particular way but for those who are not Hebrew by birth does not mean we are exempt or cast aside. All people are His and He desires to make Himself known to all people. We don’t know to come to Him on our own or even realize what we’re missing until He shows examples of His glory and persona in front of us. So when we finally see Him and are blown away by His greatness and love, our first question should be How do we stay in the midst of this. The answer is to Follow the Way to stay with Him.
“but there are no “Jewish” Christians because one cannot be Jewish as a way of life and be Christian at the same time. ”
Why not? Why can’t a person be a Christian and follow the Torah as summarized in the Decalogue? Why are they mutually exclusive? If a Messianic can accept the Messiah and follow Torah, so too can Christians.
“If he had converted to Christianity, . . .”
How would/could Shau’l “convert” to Christianity? Would he need another Damascus Road experience? 😉
Shalom, Skip. One minor technical correction; Shavuot is 50 days from Yom HaBikkurim, the Day of First Fruits, not from the “start of Pesach”. In fact, to be even more accurate, Pesach is one day, the Feast of Unleavened Bread lasts 7 days. I know that the current trend is to call the entire festival “Pesach” but that is not strictly correct according to the Scriptures (ref. Lev 23).
Excellent article regardless. Blessings to you and the family. Please pass on our greetings to Rosanne.
Rodney.
I am overwhelmed! We are to live, I think, contrary to most Christian doctrines, beliefs, and teachings because they have no foundation in Yeshua’s teachings, and yet, have community with all, to reach out to others and make connections. Is this even possible?
Whoa, Lisa! Hit a nail on a head, will ya?
As I have been ‘floating’ in limbo, it seems, about as much as many of these fine folks here, I have had a lot of time to ponder what I think I hear you say.
It appears you may have asked a question that accurately summed up the problem, because as you asked it, the answer gets clearer for me. I think the problem is that “most Christian doctrines, beliefs, and teachings” are all over the place already. I mean, duh. In other words, they, by their very divisiveness, are the culprits that are FRACTURING community in the first place.
The question then becomes: what in them is causing fracture, and what needs to change to heal fracture? The answer to both has to be that, to the exact extent that those divisors are departing from the definition of community (which is what Torah was given for, to outline for us) is going to have to be the extent that that division has to be occurring. To heal fracture would be then to return to the Torah definition of community. There is no community possible outside of that Law, because it is already the picture of what community actually IS.
I guess I just got halfway through your question. You ask a good question. How do we reach out to each other? The answer is going to lie in Torah. It shows us HOW to draw the circles that take others in. The divisiveness of doctrine shows its insidiousness in its insistence on exclusivity. We are trained to go around sniffing each other for doctrinal ‘correctness’ before reaching out to touch, so as to avoid contamination. Someone please tell me, all you who claim to be running on love, not law, how this is not suffering the worst of what the law keepers are being accused of? Outside of that Law of Love, there is only fracture. Only the Law defines what will keep us from that fracture. No doctrine outside of Torah can ever do anything but divide. Only within that Law is community even possible. Outside lies only fear. Only truth heals fear. Only Torah defines truth. The truth of how to go about love. And here we are back at the dock.
God bless us all “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the Head, even Christ.” Ephesians 4:13-15. Amen.
The thought has occurred to me that, for the first 150 years of following Yeshua, the followers showed up in the synagogues for worship. The wonder is not so much why they kept running into problems with their fellow Jews (it would be a worthy question as to exactly to what extent those problems had more to do with the relationship with Rome than they had to do with actual ‘doctrinal’ fights.): the Jews already had tolerance built in to the way they ran their worship gatherings. I am suspicious that the Jewish opposition had more to do with the fact that the Jews were DEPARTING from those instructions given in the Torah for inclusiveness in fellowship, more than anything. I think the pressure coming from Rome was a cruel fact that drove a wedge both ways through this mutual community of worshipers of Yahweh.
No community outside Torah? Perhaps in an ideal community we would all understand and believe the same thing, although I wonder if that wouldn’t be rather boring, lol. I think of community as the people around me with whom I have regular contact, a lot of it, face to face. In a time of need these people will be there for me. These people, most of them, don’t understand anything about Torah, but they understand a basic law, that we should love one another. This is Torah whether they know it or not. They are for me, they love me and I certainly love and appreciate them. Yet they believe that the Sabbath and God’s holy days are not not required of them, among many other such things. I try to live according to Yeshua’s way without causing offence in my community. That is the challenge!
Reading over your comments again, Laurita, I think we are in agreement. I have experienced a lot of “Christians” who have been very accepting of me, even when they are very aware that I have very different beliefs then them. And I try not to be offensive in how I voice my opinions.
You know, Lisa, being able to love each other without giving or taking offense is a huge challenge. Good thing I get to have so much practice! I might even get it right one of these days! Until then, I just have to keep on apologizing to all y’all and thanking you too for letting me practice….
Hello, Suzanne,
This is your comment to which I will refer: “There is a very simple problem with your reasoning. If Torah and the behavior it inspires, is unnecessary to the Christian walk, then ALL reference in the “new testament” to ANY “old testament” scripture needs to be removed from the Bible as irrelevant. It will make a much abridged edition and should simplify reading for any persons of the same persuasion.”
I don’t recall saying that Torah or the inspiration it may inspire are unnecessary. Your comment that all reference in the new to any of the old needs to be removed, shows a deep misunderstanding of anything I have posted. For that I am deeply sorry for you.
Dear Helen:
My response was to your initial post which said. “At this point in my walk with my Savior, it doesn’t matter to me too much what Paul was doing while on this earth, nor even what Jesus was “observing”. If those things mattered, I would have long ago attempted to learn of them, and then try to be perfect as it was said that Jesus was perfect in observing them. But that didn’t happen. I am not a Jew, nor am I required to behave as one does, or did long ago.”
The point is, on this website our comments are focused on exactly that: what was Yeshua doing and why was He doing it that way? There are cultural reasons for what was said by Yeshua and all His disciples (including Paul) — what were they? We need to understand those reasons if we want to REALLY know how their words apply today in our lives. EVERYTHING they said was from Torah. Therefore, my actions can ONLY be based upon their actions AFTER I understand that their cultural identity as first century pre-rabbinic Jews was woven into all of their words and actions. Otherwise, if I am interpreting their behavior in light of my cultural Gentile understanding of today, I am most likely performing ritual without substance. And I for one, do not believe that such acts carry out the purposes of God.
I hope that you will continue reading here and on a regular basis. There is a wealth of information and discussion designed to bring us all to a greater understanding of the first century church. But if you post something that relies on traditional church doctrine of the last 1700+ years, those of us in this community will ask you to defend your position. We’re not trying to be nasty, but if you really wish to contribute to the growth of this community, then please, be prepared to discuss.
Be advised that most of us are not moved by proof-texts or statements that “everyone in the Church knows whatever dogma is true” (not that you made that particular statement, it is just representative of what we see sometimes). The point here is to lay our doctrines and dogmas on the surgical table and examine them for truth. If we have a belief that we are unwilling to have examined, we ought to be asking ourselves “why”? Is our faith based in the doctrine rather that YHVH? I have said this many times, but I will say it again: if a belief is true, it will stand up to questioning and examination; but if it does not stand, WHY would you want to keep it?
“We’re not trying to be nasty, but if you really wish to contribute to the growth of this community, then please, be prepared to discuss.”
I do not wish to “contribute to the growth of this community”!!! There is nothing here that I need or want, and according to your post, Suzanne, you believe I am not “prepared to discuss”.
So be it! Quoting you again, “Be advised that most of us are not moved by proof-texts or statements that “everyone in the Church knows whatever dogma is true” (not that you made that particular statement, it is just representative of what we see sometimes)”
My prayer for you, and for this assembly, is that my Lord Jesus Christ be honored in your writings and in your attitudes toward others.
The essence of learning is the willingness to be wrong. If we only speak to those who agree, we learn nothing new. In this community, we treasure the challenges of others because their objections call us to consider deeply WHY we believe as we do. If we are not willing to entertain this approach, then we will feel unwelcome and seek the comfort of those who believe exactly as we do.
“If you are not willing to entertain this approach, then you will feel unwelcome and seek the comfort of those who believe exactly as you do.”
Quoting from your post, Skip, but I changed the word “we” to “you”, making it what it really is: a message to me.
Skip, I feel neither unwelcome here, nor do I seek those who believe exactly as I do. But I am not a Torah scholar, neither do I desire to become one. This has, it seems, become a problem to some members here.
My prayer for each of you is that you prosper in your knowledge of, and your obedience to God in Christ Jesus.
Wow Helen, you sure took apart Skip’s gracious words and made them into something he did not say! I don’t know quite what to make of your comments but you seem to be hurting in some way.
I don’t know you at all and I am trying to be diligent in not making assumptions. You sorta seem to be looking for a good argument and perhaps you are just angry with God right now for a reason only you know.
There is much peace to be found in knowing God’s word and it only gets richer and fuller (like going from a black and white picture to a colored one) as I learn more about the culture and context in which His word was written to begin with.
Please enjoy this day with the Father Helen and seek Him while He may be found.
I disagree completely with you, Dawn. And if Skip agrees with your comment about my reply to him, then I pray he will tell me so……..
I’m sorry you feel the need to try to figure out whether my comments come from a hurting soul. It is wasted effort……: )
You do seem to enjoy “playing” doctor!! LOL! I love you anyway, and am not offended.
Neither am I angry with my loving and faithful God, Who is my ever-present Savior and Lord.
I am truly happy for you in your journey to understand the Word of God, and pray you will find the Peace for which you search.
Dawn, I meant to comment on the picture of your cat! What is his/her name? My beautiful black and white kitty is named Pookie! What a sweetie he is!!
He is totally black and his name is Jett.
I am glad you are not a hurting soul. Still don’t really know what to make of your comments. I will wait and see.