The Unremarkable
And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. Luke 2:7 NASB
Gave birth – Christendom celebrates the birth of the Savior. Churches will rejoice that Jesus was born. But all this festive display stands in stark contrast to the texts that relate the birth of Yeshua. Matthew gives us a story of the conception but hardly mentions the birth. Mark and John say nothing. In fact, there is no evidence at all that the earliest believers celebrated the birth of the Messiah. The Christmas story wasn’t even mentioned until approximately 336 CE. That’s a long time before this day took on such importance. Perhaps that should give us pause. If there is no record of the followers of the Messiah celebrating his birth for the first 300 years, then why do you suppose it became such an important event later?
It seems to me that there are two factors contributing to the adoption of Christmas as a birth celebration. The first is the continual syncretism of the Church. Other pagan religions celebrated the winter equinox. Due to a mistake in calendar calculation, this event was incorporated into the Church as December 25 rather than December 21, but the syncretism is the same. The festival already existed. It was merely “converted” into Christian terms. The motivation behind this adoption was the same as the motivation to remove Jewish practices. Christianity sought a unique identity and the intellectuals of the first few centuries were intent on producing a religion that could claim some antiquity (Jewish) but was decidedly different in its appeal to the masses. That meant creating a way for pagan Romans to embrace this new religion with the least amount of life-changing disturbance. Just as kosher requirements, circumcision and Temple rituals were removed, so existing religious practices were incorporated.
The second factor is theological. If Jesus is God incarnate (according to the Trinitarian formulation, he is), then the entry of God into the world in the form of a human being is a significant event. In fact, it is the significant event since it proves that the eternal, transcendent, almighty God of creation is instantiated in this particular human being. Just how this God-Man can exist before he exists (i.e., before he is born) isn’t quite clear, but it is asserted nonetheless. The doctrine of the Trinity requires the elevation of the birth narrative to world-class significance.
That makes the accounts in the gospels even more startling. Not a single line is devoted to announcing the birth of a “God-Man.” There is no indication that this event was so important that it changed the course of history. Mark and John don’t even mention it. Yes, Matthew and Luke account for a miraculous conception, but even they make almost nothing of the birth. Doesn’t that seem odd to you? Do you suppose that the adoption of Christmas might have come in concert with the adoption of the Trinity? Don’t you think it’s worth knowing the history of this idea?
Topical Index: Christmas, Luke 2:7
I was telling my wife this very thing yesterday, as we were discussing the history of Christmas. The idea that “Jesus is God” puts the Baby on a very high pedestal.
Luke 2:8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.
10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.
11 “For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
12 “And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.”
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:
14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!”
15 So it was, when the angels had gone away from them into heaven, that the shepherds said to one another, “Let us now go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us.”
Yes, Luke recounts the event. But what is his emphasis? Is it the BIRTH event or is it the significance of the good news (which, by the way, is not the birth event)? Do the angels say, “This is the most important birth in all human history,” or do they proclaim peace on earth”?
God considers it important enough to prophecy about it in detail as far back as Eve and fulfill it in detail including the timing and place.
Kay
OK, let me try to answer both Kay and David in this one.
1. Some Messianic prophecies like the one you cite in Genesis are only Messianic “after the fact.” In other words, no one in the original audience would have considered them Messianic. So let’s try to be careful about how much anachronistic theology we import.
2. Yes, this is a significant fulfillment of Messianic prophecy, but that isn’t the point. The point is the a) it’s not about Christmas and b) the BIRTH isn’t that important. What is important is that this is the declaration of peace of earth and good will toward men. None of the authors make the actual BIRTH a big deal. It is a big deal because of what it MEANS, not because of the manger scene or the star or the wise men (who weren’t there anyway). Do you see what I am trying to point out? Christians make the BIRTH the big deal when that isn’t the emphasis of the authors. The fact that neither John nor Mark even mention the birth is significant.
3. Christianity focuses on the INCARNATION because it is committed to the God-Man Trinity. But that is also inference after the fact. Does the Scripture declare that this event was God becoming Man, or is that what we have said about it? And if the original authors thought that this was the “God becomes Man” event, then why is there so little about it? And why do we make such a big deal about it? Fulfillment about the MESSIAH is not quite the same as fulfillment of a doctrinal claim about the Trinity. Could Jews accept the birth of the Messiah without making a parallel declaration about the Trinity?
I’m learning about all of this and am a little confused. I agree that the “Trinity” is not really seen in the Bible (even in Revelation we only see God and Yeshua/The Lamb At the throne in heaven), but I think I’m hearing something really different here. Are you saying Yeshua is NOT G-d in the flesh? That he is just a perfect man? What about John 1 and what seemed to be his emphasis on Yeshua being God? Yeshua calling Himself ,”I Am”? Please help me understand. Thank you!
Shalom!
Robin
Can I suggest that you continue to read all of the rest of the material on the Trinity on this web site before you jump to any conclusions. Each of the verses you mention is discussed, and a lot more. You can find it all by simply searching “Trinity” from the home page. When you have read it all, and you still have questions, then post something or email me and we can continue. Thanks.
Im sorry Skip, I don’t get you here. This is the fulfilment of the coming seed. Of course it is Peace it is the significant event of the birth of YESHUA prophesied throughout history as Kay says.
Everyone is born. Including HaMessiach. Our birth is the beginning of our life as it was with Yeshua. Yeshua’s life (birth) would have been nothing extraordinary had he sinned. I don’t see how “God the Son” can identify with us in any significant way, but I do see how the “Son of God,” HaMessiach, can who chose at each fork in the road the yetzar haTov rather than haRa. His choice of a righteous life is what qualified him to kill death in the end, the final barrier for life to have the victory for all of us.
Similarly, our daily, moment by moment choices qualifies us in to a righteous life, on the path of Life. As we choose each day life or death to walk in, we then identify with the desires of Yeshua to choose at each instance Tov rather than Ra. THAT is what is significant in my life, not my birth.
So, yes, his birth is the inaugural event, but the substance, and therefore, the most important aspect of Yeshua’s life followed that event, which would have been nullified had he sinned. Thus his life of righteousness is what we should be celebrating.
It seems to me the Christmas emphasis is misplaced, misdirected and misguided. The focus should be not on the first step of Yeshua’s life, but his successive following steps. Righteousness is evident right up until it’s not, as our lives reflect. Then, hopefully, comes teshuvah. I don’t know that Yeshua ever had to experience that aspect, like we inevitably do. Had Yeshua deviated one time, we would all be facing death in the end as no one can get around it without help and assistance.
At least, that’s how I see it presently, which by the way, flows much more adequately in my mind and heart in comparison to the Christmas “reason for the season” proclamation.
If only all this malaise that seems to surround Christmas time that includes the traffic, the economics, the political debates regarding nativity displays, the hustle and bustle, the frantic buying of insincere obligatory gifts, etc. would be as finely focused on righteous living, we could all have a much more balanced year, life, and existence.
Instead of giving obligatory and expected gifts to our families, which in reality is somewhat self serving, what about we simply use those resources and focus them on the real needy, poor, and cast offs of this world. That, it seems, would more reflect the LIFE of Yeshua as opposed to his BIRTH.
Just some thoughts that I am endeavoring to incorporate as I LIVE because I was BORN.
Good points.
As Skip has challenged me to reconsider the Trinity the content of your first paragraph has been the biggest impact for me.
If Yeshua was a man vs a God-man, his life is far more remarkable and convicting and challenging to me. Not only did he turn to the tov and away from the ra, he also healed and raised the dead as a man. To me, that is far more remarkable than the God-man doing it.
As a man I can identify with him. As a man I can see my own deficiencies and have hope. When I view him as a man I can follow in his way knowing he didn’t have a “cheat” of also having that godness thingie in his hip pocket.
I’m not totally there yet with dumping the Trinity but it’s causing me to really think it through.
Yes, Michael! I was thinking the same thing today. There’s a great song by Nina Landis called Gluttons At A Table that I was listening too. What have we become? Thank Yah for his mercy!
One Among Many
Uniquely Begotten
Everyone is born (Yes), but not everyone, at least no one I know, has been born of a virgin, save One. Well, maybe Adam #1 would come closest, but he wasn’t “birthed” – he was fashioned from dirt and then God breathed into his nostrils the Ruach Hakodesh, the Breath of Life.
The (Yes, miraculous!) virgin birth of our LORD is no small potatoes! Not only was this very unique, (one-of-a-kind) birth prophesied by Isaiah, but in God’s plan of our redemption – it was necessary!
Let us ask ourselves the very same question, our LORD and Savior asked of Peter.. First- “Who do men say that I AM?” And more pointedly, -“Who do you say that I AM?” We need to answer these same two questions as if our lives depended upon our answer, for the Messiah (HImself) was quite pleased with how Peter answered Him, – “You are the Messiah (-the Christ – the Anointed) the Son of the Living God!.
Some might position themselves with Thomas the Doubter, one who declared, -I will not believe unless.. – unless I see the prints of the nails in His hands!
Perhaps Thomas has never heard, – “whom having NOT seen, you love!” or (Thomas), – did you know? ~ “we walk by faith and NOT by sight!” ~ Thomas, however, was among the fortunate few, those who were “eye-witnesses” of a resurrected Man.
I’ve got to wonder.. “what if?” – What if He were standing now in front of us.. with those same hands outstretched towards us, – would we declare (or confess) with the very same words as Thomas? ~ My LORD and (??)- my God!! I am exceedingly sure of it.
Shall we continue? Well.. we’ve heard the testimony of Peter and of Thomas, but what about John the Immerser? Ahh.. so many witnesses- so little time! John said, (it seems we have forgotten about John!) – “Are You the One? (yes, the Messiah) -or should we look for another?”
If I may be so bold to ask..
– Is He the One? – or should we look for another?
The Bereans were commended for searching the Scriptures to see if what Paul was teaching was true or not. Was it the fact that they were such eager students of Scripture that made them more honorable? I’m sure that there were many detractors of the gospel that were equally zealous of searching Scripture, and equally desirous of proving Paul wrong. The difference, it seems to me, was the motive. If our motives are mixed and more focused on what is wrong, rather than on what is right, I think our investigating will go awry. It is important to have a love for the truth, but the emphasis must always be on “the greatest of these”. It is relatively easy to search out the truth compared to the difficulty of loving those we have such strong disagreements with. It is love that distinguishes a true disciple, more so than having “all knowledge.”
However, the Bereans, earnestly searched for the knowledge, not for knowledge sake or simply to own the correct thinking. They earnestly searched in order to DO, the essence of faith. Faith without works is merely unfulfilled motive, dead. I would chose someone who actually did what I asked rather than someone who only intended to do it. The Bereans weren’t merely intenders, but active doers.
Yes, indeed. But love includes chastisement, does it not?
I have no problem with the chastising aspect of love. What I have a problem with is how quick we are to do the chastising and how easily it can play into the wrong side of our nature (I forgot the Hebrew for it :(). I get tired of so much finger-pointing and fault-finding within the Body of Messiah and long to see the harder work of healing and restoration done. This whole issue of divisions within the Body hits very close to home with me as I have a son who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy – a very conservative brand of it – and who now considers me a heretic because I don’t accept the traditions of his church.
As God our Father is sovereign in all things, wouldn’t it be right to conclude that is God Himself who has allowed the history of His church to play out just as it has for His purposes? With all it’s human error, theological complexities and seeming contradictions only to bring it all full circle to point right back to Him and for His glory. It keeps us amazed at His omniscient character – blessed be His Name forever.
Thank you again Skip for giving us some thoughts to ponder about our amazing Heavenly Father and encouraging us to think larger than our small, busy world and keep seeking the Savior as the Shepherds did long ago. His human form is as important as His good news that He brings. I am so thankful that God has kept His church alive to keep telling the story of His good news of mercy and love so that we all could enjoy fellowship with Him and one another.
Just a note. Sovereignty does not override human error (most of the time) and it appears that God allows human error in order to also allow voluntary obedience. The risk of free will is that men will sin in all kinds of ways, including, but not limited to, proposing theologically based celebrations as if they were biblical. I don’t count the sovereignty of God, but it certainly seems as if His sovereignty is very, very rarely used to prevent men from doing stupid and terrible things.
What about Paul’s message to us in Romans 8, 9, 10 and here Romans 11 “For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!” God’s word explains it the best.
Israel fell into idolatry for long periods throughout history. God is ALWAYS sovereign, but it would be crazy to suggest that this was in line with His purpose or desires. He condemned it, sent his prophets, and allowed famine and horrific atrocities to happen to Israel at the hands of other nations because of their disobedience and spiritual adultery. God being sovereign means that nothing happens without Him seeing, nothing happens outside of the realm of his power and ability to redeem and restore, NOT that all things that happen are “sanctioned” by Him. You simply cannot read the Bible with this view of God’s sovereignty. The “church” had the opportunity to be a vehicle for God’s blessing and spirit, but overall, it has gone far astray from his commandments. He continues to use much of the bad for good, but he never calls bad “good”, the bad does not go unnoticed and it will not escape consequences.
The whole let’s celebrate his birth gets me because we have the information in the text to know that He was born turning Sukkot. Which would also mean that Yeshua was conceived in the Chanukah season. I personally understand that for most people x-mas is really just about good cheer, it’s not Christian and we know this because atheist (not anti-theist, there is a difference) still come over for x-mas parties and still exchange gifts. We tell our kids fairy tails to keep them interested (Santa, elfs, north pole). The day is way more about fantasy then anything Biblical.
The day is really made up on nothing, if you took away the tree, if you took away the presents, if you took away the music and you were left with just the, ‘birth of baby Jesus”, the day would be cold and boring and no kid would want it. Very little text on the matter. Compare that now to the Feast days, at the root of them all is such depth; and also commands to be happy where as in this season of Christian holidays more people cut their life short then any other time of the year.
Simply put, in my humble opinion there is nothing wrong with having cheer in your life, buying people presents, helping random strangers out, eating dinner with family and laughing over good times – but I don’t think that is suppose to be unique to a random day once a year and then we make the excuse that Jesus was born so that’s why we do it. At least if we are going to ‘celebrate the Messiah’s birth’ can we do it the correct day? Have fun with family, have fun buying gifts – it’s not His birthday and even by chance it was why do we buy each other gifts? Yeshua’s birthday is the only birthday that I would know that He’s the only one that doesn’t get a gift but everyone else does. So if you were going to do that, give money to the poor, the widows, the orphans…all in my opinion.
Derek,
I am very interested in how you came to SuKkot as being the when Messiah was born. Care to enlighten me?
thanks.
Sure thing. Just also take a step back before you read this though and really think of the phrase, “tabernacled among us” (John 1:14). Tabernacle = Sukkot. Further more, why wouldn’t God use His Feast days for the birth of the Messiah? Also brings to light when Yeshua says,”I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12. 9 months before Sukkot is Chanukah. He was conceived at Chanukah then, He is the shamash candle aka the servant candle. Goes into also why when He was crucified and all the thieves hands would be up in the air they make a Menorah and He would be dead center again with the imaginary of Him being the bringer of light ie the shamash candle. But regardless here is just some copy past information for ya, it’s pretty interesting:
Yeshua’s cousin, John the Baptist, was conceived in mid Sivan (May/June) and born 40 weeks later on Nisan 15, the Passover. John’s father was a Levite who was assigned to serve in the temple during the course of “Abia,” the 8th course of the year (Luke 1:5, 1 Chr 24:10)
Since the cycle of service began on the first Shabbat of Nisan but both Passover and Shavu’ot require all priestly courses to serve, the actual time the 8th course would serve would be during the 10th week of the year. This places Zacharias’ service in the Temple as beginning on the second Sabbath of the month of Sivan (May/June).
It is written that John was conceived shortly after this tour of duty
(Luke 1:23-4). Therefore, John the Baptist was probably conceived shortly after the third Sabbath of the month of Sivan (i.e., late Sivan).
Therefore John the Baptist was born around Passover (Nisan 15). (Recall that Yeshua said that John the Baptist was a type of Elijah the prophet
(Matt 17:10-13, cp. Luke 1:17). Even today it is customary for Jews to set out a special cup of wine during the Passover Seder meal in anticipation of the arrival of Elijah for the festival.)
Yeshua was conceived in late Kislev (Nov/Dec) and born 40 weeks later during Sukkot (i.e., Tabernacles).
Yeshua was conceived six months after John the Baptist (Luke 1:24-27, 36). Note that the “sixth” month refers to Elizabeth’s pregnancy, not the month of Elul (cp. Luke 1:36).
Six months added to late Sivan is late Kislev, which is the time of the conception of Yeshua (note that the first day of the Jewish festival of Chanukah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th day of Kislev, and Yeshua is called the Light of the world (John 8:12, 9:5, 12:46)).
From the 15th day of Nisan (John’s birthday), we add six months to arrive at the 15th day of the 7th month, Tishri – the first day of the festival of Sukkot.
If the day of his birth were the first day of Sukkot, the day of his circumcision would be the eighth day, Shemini Atzeret/Sinchat Torah, which, like the first day, is a day of sacred assembly (Leviticus 23:39). On this day the Jews complete their annual cycle of Torah readings and start again from Bereshit (Genesis). Simchat Torah is considered to be a time of “fulfillment” of the Torah. The circumcision of Yeshua at this time indicates how he had come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17-18).
Circumstantial Evidences:
John 1:14 states that the “Word became flesh and “dwelt” with us. The Greek word “dwelt” [skeinao] comes from the word skeinos, which the LXX (Septuagint) uses for the mishkan (tabernacle). The name given for the feast of Tabernacles itself is called Herotei Skeinon in the LXX.
King Herod most likely would used the opportunity of the Festival of Sukkot (in Jerusalem) to perform the census (certainly not Chanukah, since he detested and feared the Hasmoneans).
Shepherds would not be out with their sheep in the dead of winter in Israel.
The angel who appeared to the shepherds said, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people” (Luke 2:10). Since Sukkot was known as both a festival of joy and also as the “Festival of the Nations,” the angel was actually giving them a greeting for the Festival of Sukkot. This is the only festival where the nations are positively encouraged to participate (Zechariah 14:16-19).
After Yeshua returns and sets up His kingdom on earth, it is written that only one festival will be celebrated by the nations: Sukkot (Zechariah 14:16) Why is that? Could it be that this will be a worldwide birthday party for Yeshua? (all the other festivals would have been fulfilled – Passover, FirstFruits, Pentecost, Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur, but the remembrance of His birth would remain as a celebration).
The Catholic church (in 336 AD) declared December 25th (on the Julian calendar) to be Yeshua’s birthday in order to replace a pagan Roman holiday, Saturnalia. Ironically, December 25th was a celebration of the birthday of the sun god. The early church, in an attempt to get rid of the pagan holiday, declared December 25th to be the birthday of the Son of God.
We know that Yeshua was 30 years old when He started His ministry (Luke 3:23), and, assuming (as many Bible scholars do) that He ministered for 3 1/2 years, we can count backwards from the crucifixion (during Passover in Nisan) 6 months to discover his birthday in Tishri.
Thanks for sharing this. I have read similar things before, but it fascinates and excites me every time I read it. So much rich symbolism and meaning. 🙂
I’m going to copy this and compare it to some other sources. thanks ever so much.
Here’s Your Sign
The Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom..
~ Therefore, the LORD Himself will give you a sign: ~ Behold, a virgin will be with Child and bear a Son, and she will call His Name Immanuel ~
You know.. where I come from.. this kind of stuff just doesn’t happen everyday. Normally.. yes, in the “real” world, virgins don’t go ’round conceiving children. The very idea of a virgin having a child is (to be very blunt- and ‘scientific!”) preposterous!
How can these things be? Yep. Mary herself, asked the very same question! Oh, angel! (Heavenly Messenger) How can these things be? Friend, (where I come from) we would call this sort of thing “miraculous!” A virgin shall become pregnant? No way!! Ahh.. but God says, “Way!” (lol!)
In truth and in fact.. (dear friend).. ~ with God, – ALL THINGS are possible!
And how does “any man” (Jew or Gentile, btw..) know these things? Only one way.. “it is written!” God says “it is so!” It is written in His word.. And?
Oh, Hallelujah!! (are you listening?) – GOOD NEWS!! – GOOD NEWS!!
(It’s about time for some good news.. -don’t you think?)
~ But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, (His only begotten Son!) born of woman, born under the Law, to redeem (He is our Near-Kinsman Redeemer!) those who were under the Law, so that we might receive adoption as sons! (Yes, wOw!!) And because you are (now) sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son (the Ruach HaKodesh) into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you (we)_ are no longer slaves, but sons(!), and if (no, “since!”) we are now sons (and daughters!), then we are also heirs!!
(Galatians 4.4,5)
And? (as heirs) ~ We have a priceless inheritance–an inheritance that is kept in Heaven for us, (an inheritance that is) pure and undefiled, (an inheritance that is) beyond the reach of change and decay! (1 Peter 1.4)
Some thank the LORD for friends and home,
For mercies sure and sweet;
But I would praise Him for His grace –
This prayer I would repeat:
Thank You LORD for saving my soul..
Thank You LORD for making me whole..
Thank You LORD for giving to me..
Thy great Salvation, so rich and free!
~ So what makes us think we can escape if we ignore this great salvation that was first announced by the LORD Jesus Himself and then delivered to us by those who heard Him speak? ~
~ Speak, LORD, for your servant is listening ~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRlJj8xkds
I appreciate your Christian witness but once again may I point out that the prophecy is anachronistic. I doubt anyone knew what Isaiah was talking about when he spoke it. And certainly no one applied this prophecy to the birth of Yeshua at the time of the birth. So when did we decide that this is what it meant?
Simeon knew it, Elizabeth knew it. Mary knew it. Anna knew it. Herod heard of it. The priest shepherds who raised Passover lambs and had to wrap the first born male sheep in strips of cloth to keep them from enjurying themselves would have understood the angels identifying Him as the Lamb of God prophesied to be born in Bethlehem.
Kay
Right. But did they know what we as Christians claim to know? Or did they know something about a Jewish Messiah that we have forgotten?
Skip…isn’t it common with prophesy that we seldom understand it at the time it is pronounced. And… then we have that “ah ha” moment when it comes to pass.
Yes, VERY common. And therefore dangerous (as we have pointed out in discussion of the “blood moons” stuff). The gospel writers knew the fulfillment of the prophecy AFTER the fact, not because they derived the exact meaning prior to the event. That should give us pause, especially since they did not seem to make the connection even while they were with him. So we must ask, “If they didn’t get it until after the entire life of Yeshua had ended (and then some), don’t we have to rethink our penchant to proclaim that all the “Messianic” prophecies were really MESSIANIC when they were first given?” How do you connect the dots BEFORE you have the map?
Skip, oftentimes “prophecy” is (yes) “forthtelling”, but also a forthtelling or foretelling of future events.. Uhh.. while we’re on the subject, just how many prophecies, (yes, in the Tanakh) are concerning the Messiah? Not one, (sign) not two (signs), but hundreds!
Isaiah must’ve sounded some kind of crazy when he announced “a virgin shall conceive”, because this is NOT the “ordinary” way of things – at all!
We would have to be hard pressed to read of these (let’s just call them “statements”) concerning the One who was to come and still come away “blind.” That is, unless we are willing to remain “ignorant!”
Bottom line sirs, – what was foretold in the O.T. has been fulfilled in the N.T. What was once shadow, is now substance. Friends, the long-promised Messiah has come! Oh! – and lest we forget! – “Just as He said!”
The virgin birth of the Messiah is only the beginning.. but what a “sign” this is for all of us! This is no “ordinary” baby!
In fact, we would have to ask ourselves, why, o why? did these wise men travel from afar to visit this (ordinary?) baby boy? Where there shepherds in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night? Was there an angelic announcement concerning the birth of the Chosen One? I’d even go so far as to ask every reader, the very same question John the Immerser asked,
“Is He the One? – or should we look for another?”
Can’t help but think of this post today:
Patrick (Skip’s Tech Geek) December 25, 2009 at 12:47 pm
When we were in Israel in October with Skip, we joked at the idea of making tshirts that said, “I met Skip Moen, and he ruined my life.”
But we all meant it out of total love and appreciation. 🙂
And I’m sure I speak for the group in saying that we wouldn’t change a thing. 🙂
To quote Skip’s friend John Samuel (who’s Productivity Compass helped me discover what God truly made me to be)…“The truth will set you free, but first it’ll piss you off.” That’s how it was for me. But I wouldn’t change a thing. 🙂
Cheers & Shalom to all!
I actually had to laugh out loud at the comment, “I met Skip Moen, and he ruined my life.” because it has been so true for my life too. Not that everything Skip says is “gospel” but he has challenged me to examine my life by the standard set by my God. It isn’t easy to be different, but it isn’t all that hard either as long as you don’t insist that everyone is different with you. Thank you Skip for being the you YHVH intended you to be and for sharing this journey with us.
John shares the miracles He did to prove He was God in flesh as Jesus told Phlilp if you have seen Him you have seen the Father, they are One. All accounts are just as important to the picture. There will always be counterfeits to what God does. You can complain about them or take the opportunity to celebrate Him the way your heart wants to. He has not asked you to judge which Gospel account deserves more attention or how much value others place on it from there heart to Him. I am amazed you have problems with the trinitorial expression of one God when every answered prayer is a result of His trinitoral act of redemption by The Savior which could only be Himself and His Holy Spirit who dwells in you, that seals you, but if you want to disprove it I let God deal with your beiief. Christmas is a good chance to talk about Him not complain about how every one else is doing it wrong.
Kay
If Yeshua was God then it’s really depressing actually in my opinion. If he was a man what it shows that you can be tempted (which Yeshua was) and overcome. It makes Yeshua seem far less mechanical. He was tempted everyday just like you or I – the difference is that he overcame all situations. Plus why would Hasatan tempt God in the desert if Yeshua is God. Makes no sense especially since Hasatan isn’t rogue he has to ask permission to do anything. So Hasatan has to go up to heaven and ask God, “Can I tempt you in the desert?”. It would be a complete utter waste of time for Hastan, why would he even think that a perfect God could falter. To be Messiah (which I think plenty of evidence shows that Yeshua was in fact Messiah ben Yosef) doesn’t mean that you have to be God, in fact I have no idea where people point to that shows that one. Plus so many things that show the trinity outlook are just forgeries.
If God can come as a Pillar of Fire, or Smoke…what’s to stop Him from coming in human form?
How can He be with us in the U.S. and with those in China, Europe, Asia etc. How can He be everywhere???
Remember, He’s God!!! Perhaps we doubt His capabilities.
Skip has a great series on why the modern Church idea of trinity is simply not in the Bible and is read into it with a western paradigm. I don’t doubt your comment that God can do what ever He wants, I respectfully will have to disagree that Yeshua is God. Didn’t use to think that way, after reading Skips series on it with an open mind though he brings up some very valid arguments and would invite you to check it out if you haven’t made up your mind about it. If you have made up your mind, then we agree to disagree that Yeshua is God – but we can hold hands hopefully on that Yeshua is the Messiah and His death was the watershed moment history
I still wish we could get deeper into the difference between “Yeshua is God” vs. “Yeshua is divine, had a divine nature”, etc. That distinction is the missing piece for me. I don’t feel like we have gone deep enough into the meaning of divine and divinity. To just say “Yeshua wasn’t God” sounds to most ears like “Yeshua was JUST a man”. Which just feels like… that can’t be. He WAS a man. Flesh and blood and bone and tiredness and sweat and hunger and all the desires and dreams of man. Yes. But NOT ONE MAN has ever been wholly obedient to God from the moment they were born. I’m 32 and I fancy myself a decent enough person, but I am only NOW, at 32, even beginning to dig deeply into what it means to be obedient and righteous. And I have barely scratched the surface. And most days the best I can say is that I didn’t do or even think anything really really BAD, but there few days, maybe almost none, in my thirty-some years that I can say, “I was GOOD. I was RIGHTEOUS on that day.” So the concept of a “just-a-man” man being able to be righteous and obedient from day one… it’s incomprehensible. Yeshua was MORE than just a man. He HAD to be. So WHAT was he? A lot of people might be more willing and able to part with the sacred cow doctrine that he was God if they were better able to understand, scripturally, what Yeshua’s nature was, if not God Himself in the flesh.
I hear ya totally. I have no idea. There are a lot of things I don’t get. I don’t understand what Yeshua was. “The word made flesh”…? I know the idea is the ‘memra’ and the Targum uses that word a lot. Someone how that is Yeshua, I don’t get it though. I’m fine with not having an answer though. I’ve also heard, ‘the incarnate son’ have no idea what that means. To date, I just have, he was a divine rabbi and was the suffering servant. The details past that I’ll just let people way more qualified then me to pave the way with research. I think you are right for sure, but I think that it’s totally Greek. When God says, “God is not a man” in Numbers 23:19 I just take Him at His word. We’ll He’s not a man. Also theological gymnastics are too difficult. It’s easier for me just to say He’s not a man therefore, Yeshua is not God. And you can’t prove text by later text hermeneutics 101. It’s taken me a while to get to the point of saying, “I don’t know” with a lot of things and not think less of myself for not having all the answers, we’re all just learning any ways.
I appreciate your spiritual concern, but as soon as you defer to “He was more than a man,” then everything about his obedience and his call for us to be like him is false. He was chosen (so was Moses and Jeremiah). He was obedient (wasn’t Enoch). He was granted authority on earth. He was uniquely assigned the role of Messiah and King. But until we exhaust the distinction between “divine” and “deity” we will be confused about is real nature (a Greek concept, by the way). The introduction of the term “divine nature” is a Hebrew category mistake since in Hebrew thought only ONE being in the universe has a divine nature (although others claim that distinction). That makes the role of the Messiah something other than a claim about the divine nature.
I just mean that with the life he lived, it’s easier to imagine that he was God than that he was “just a man”. The world has seen no one like him. Not before, and not since. There were others who were obedient and righteous, but he was more than that too. He forgave like God. He loved like God. He knew what was in the heart of man. He healed bodies. He healed hearts. He brought people back from the dead. He lived like no man had ever lived and he died like no man had ever died. His composure, his character, never wavered for a second. He himself rose from the dead! If I believe all that, and I do, none of it adds up to the idea that he was just like me and you. There’s more to it. And I want to understand what the “more” element is. I’m not saying he is God. I am not emotionally invested in the Trinity. I wasnt raised believing it, and it’s never fully made sense to me. But I can’t get behind the idea that the whole Messiah thing is a big farce if he WASN’T “just a man”. There are other possibilities and I am trying to glean if we can piece together an understanding of those possibilities from scripture.
Yeshua is unique. He is “sent” by YHVH to be the Messiah, and in the process granted powers on earth (like forgiveness) that others do not have. But as for healing, life from the dead, feeding thousands, etc. don’t the prophets, also send from YHVH, exhibit some of these actions? And what makes you think he rose himself from the dead? As for composure and character, while I have no doubt whatsoever that he lived an observant life, I do read that he was distressed, angry, critical, intolerant, etc. Perhaps your picture of him isn’t quite in line with the text.
Finally, does his uniqueness at the chosen Messiah necessarily mean that he cannot be a man?
God himself gets angry, does he not? Yeshua’s reactions and emotions were never inappropriate for the situation. What I mean when I say that he never wavered is that he stuck to his mission, in the face of every obstacle. Not once did he lose sight of what he was here to do. Given what he faced, his ability to do that seems superhuman.
“seems superhuman” isn’t quite the same as “is superhuman.”
So to me and with it all why it’s comforting to think that Yeshua is not God is that we were created in God’s image Gen 1:26. Question that follows is, “What does God’s image look like?” Fast forward to Exodus, since God is a action God His descriptions are verbs. His image isn’t nose, eyes etc etc His image is what He does. Again key to it is verbs which Hebrew is all about verbs. So we go to Exodus 34:6-7 and it’s the 13 attributes of God, all verbs. To be made in His image is to have these attributes. Why it’s so beautiful is that if we are just mere flesh and blood but we walk out these attributes (which He really lays out how to do it), we can achieve such resemblance to God that it’s almost not even distinguishable human and God because we are not in His image. You would have people 2000 years later wondering, “Wait, was that God or not?”. Yeshua shows us what having those 13 attributes of God looks like, how it’s suppose to look to be made in His image, and how God can move through such a person. Again, all my opinion
Skip, in John 1 v.1 does the Greek say that ‘and the Word was divine’ instead of ‘God’. Because that is the proof verse that so many people use to dismiss further argument.
It seems to me that I wrote about this verse, and the Greek terms and lack of articles. I can’t quite remember. But the word in Greek is theos. The question about this verse is not the Greek term, but the syntax and grammar, plus the imported assumption that the first occurrence of logos (word) is a PERSON, not a personification of an attribute of God, like “wisdom” in Proverbs.
A careful articulation of these problems can be found in Anthony Buzzard, Jesus was not a Trinitarian, pp. 364-366.
Thank you.
“One being….” “One” or “1” ? These are not one and the same. There is a huge difference between wholeness and completeness and a simple numeric designation: The implications are profound.
” Being ” ? Are you sure God is a being? God is Spirit
Okay….so how can Yeshua be Messiah and not be God?
Better question, where does it say that Messiah is God in the O.T?
Derek…..You didn’t answer the question?
He fulfilled the prophecies dealing with messiah ben yosef, that’s how He’s messiah. He fulfilled the spring feast days is another. And when Yeshua does the fall feast then it will be Messiah ben David. Now where does it say the Messiah is God, respectfully of course (it’s hard to hear my tone as I read, I hope you know that it’s in love and not trying make you feel bad if you don’t know – I don’t know either. And as far as I can tell there is nothing in O.T that says Messiah is God or has to be God)
He can be Divine. And I do believe that Yeshua is Divine. But I don’t have an issue saying that 1+1+1 equals 3 not 1.
Or 1 times 1 times 1 = 1. Just kidding, Derek!
Perhaps we could consider that enough prophecy had to be given so that Messiah would be hoped for and recognized when He came, but perhaps we also have to consider that this planet has been under siege. It is just not good battle sense to give away your master stroke to the enemy ahead of time. If Messiah was God, then there may have been a good strategical reason that He could not tell the planet ahead of time. He needed to be put to death, but if we had known it, we perhaps would not have crucified the Son of glory? We are privy to such a tiny slice of this whole war…
Does the Messiah HAVE TO BE GOD in order to be the Messiah? No Jew thinks so.
So….please explain!
Where are you lost Tim?
Definition of Messiah.
There are two Messiah’s. Messiah ben Yosef the suffering servant and Messiah ben David the conquering king. We get this from Zech 9:9 coming on a donkey and then in Dan 7:13 coming in the clouds. This alludes to two different events. A generalization is in Judaism they teach it a bit differently and don’t view it in that order but in reverse or just nix the Messiah ben Yosef all together even though both are written about in the Talmud. We figure if you are Christian that Yeshua will fill both roles. Messiah ben David will bring peace on earth and usher in the messianic kingdom. Yeshua as ben Yosef came first and suffered and died for the sake of Israel (and the nations) in the war against ultimate evil. He is also the Anointed Prophet, Priest, and King.
I should also note that the dying for the sake of Israel type of deal, this all happened before the foundation of the world. The cross event was showing who holds the keys to life and death and has to deal with bronze serpent in the book of numbers, skips book, “Crossword Puzzles” goes into to it if you are interested.
Hi Derek,
Yes, I am aware of the series
Sorry Derek…, I hit the reply button too soon.
Yes I am aware of Skip’s series.
And, no, I haven’t made up my mind yet.
And, if I’m not mistaken, Skip hasn’t either, 100%. He’s indicated he’s still on the journey for truth and doing his homework.
I’m following and listening to his thoughts with open ears as well as doing some research of my own.
I’m very cautious of drawing a hasty conclusion.
Where can I find the series on the Trinity? Is there also one on sovereignty?
I think if you just search box it, ‘trinity’ you’ll see a ton of them. Super interesting. They should be clustered together. If I recall it was sometime this summer. But there are fairly good number of them.
That’s good not to jump to decisions, and respectfully I would hope that no one changes their mind on things due to pressure or getting scrutinized; although it is fun to work things out.
Where I’m at with it after wards is this: 1+1+1 does not equal 1 but 3. BUT at the end if we are arguing on a cognitive thing, what difference does it make? If I don’t believe that Yeshua is God but you do, how does that make me coming to the father any different then from you? Or how does that make me practice shabbat differently? It doesn’t. Since it’s not an, “action item” then it’s a fun argument and may bring more scripture to light but there is no mitzvot tied to it so we can leave it as interesting. I can say he was divine and not God and be comfortable, I could be saying something different from a year from now though. The more I learn the more I realize how little I know and just how little I deserve His love with how I muddle things up. So at the end the search continues!
ME too. Slowly, not quickly. A lot of time to think and read and investigate. But it is becoming clearer, isn’t it? That does NOT mean it is become more comfortable.
I don’t think anyone doubts GOD’S capabilities. The question is whether those “capabilities” (read “attributes”) apply EQUALLY to the Messiah, and if they do, are they applied by nature or by assignment? God can take human form, of course. But that does not answer the question about the Messiah, especially in light of many texts that suggest the Messiah did not operate as God. It’s still a puzzle, but not one that prevents us from honoring his birth, even if it isn’t today.
“….but not one that prevents us from honoring his birth….”
How can you say this if all you have been talking about is that we are NOT to honor His birth!”
I think the issue may be one of tribute to the King, rather than gift-exchange. If the one season that all the world will celebrate during the 1000 year reign will be Sukkot, perhaps part of that celebration will be the bringing of gifts (tribute) to the King of the World. I don’t know this as fact, it’s just my pondering.
Gift exchange is only addressed in one verse in the Bible: Rev. 11:10 where all the world exchanges gifts and makes merry because the two prophets are dead. Isn’t it interesting that the world will respond in that time, to that event, with gift exchange?
I don’t know about the “forgeries” issues, but I certainly appreciate your other questions. They are problems, not easily swept away by the “fully God and fully Man” language.
Maybe forgeries is the wrong word. Isn’t there text that is not original that was written in afterwards? And on top of that, some of those text are written in point towards trinity?
We spent a lot of time this year discussing verses like the one you reference. Unless you adopt the Trinitarian paradigm FIRST, and then read the text, you cannot claim that it MUST be read in this way. The problem is not the text. It is the paradigm. And that depends on the history, culture and language of the authors and the church interpreters. No scholar of the text would ever claim that the Trinity is a DEFINITIVE doctrine from the text itself. It is an inferred, derived doctrine that depends on reading the “evidence” in a certain way. That is the question we investigated. Perhaps you will want to review the lengthy analysis and debates a few months back.
Come on, Ebenezer. Let us lift our hearts and voices with Joy that we can celebrate the miraculous birth of our Lord Jesus Christ today with Christians around the world! Tom
Yes, we can celebrate the fulfillment of prophecy about the Messiah, and we can experience the joy of knowing that he is our Lord and unique in all the world. And, of course, this is what most Christian believe to be the case even if it actually didn’t occur on this day. But then I sometimes wonder if the Messiah of Scripture is really the same as the Jesus of Christianity, and that makes me concerned that even if we celebrate the event (whenever it was), we might not be celebrating the same person’s birth.
So, I won’t be Ebenezer today. But that doesn’t make the questions go away tomorrow.
So now we are Scrooge if we don’t celebrate today? We should all lift your voice with joy every day, but understand that this so-called “holiday” was not appointed by YHWH but by men, and actually violates the Sabbath command in that it draws many away from their work for at least one day out of the six that we are to work.
I find it interesting that just last month (here in the U.S.) we give thanks to God when we celebrate Thanksgiving and talk of the Pilgrims, and then December rolls around and the masses take part in a celebration that the Pilgrims were honest enough to realize was not in the Scriptures and not condoned by the Father.
1) I want that tee shirt! Both of them!
2) The root of christmas is saturnalia, synchronization will not make it holy if you abide by Jeremiah 2:10.
3) it’s not about spoiling the intent, it’s about the fact that my intent makes something neither acceptable or holy.
4) It’s a fact in the occult that attention = worship, even if the individual(s) have no clue that what they are giving their attention (read: worship) to is occult. Therefore, observing the pagan holidays, with their pagan pajrphenilia is equal to worshiping the pagan gods. Understand that EVERYTHING from the mistletoe (drops of semen) to the christmas tree (phallic symbol) to the gifts are the bottom in the circle (woman’s ovum) are about the sex act.
and birth? those babies conceived during this time were sacrificed on the altar of the gods they served.
My observance of this day only encourages the evil i say i live against.
So. yeah,
Happy holidays.
“David “converts” these idolatrous symbols into instruments of praise and in doing so he smashes any hint that the sun and the moon retain any inherent power. The praise of YHVH ensures that no religious symbolism remains in these two ancient objects of worship.” “Today’s Word” – 12/23/2014 – Inarticulate Praise.
So why can’t “Christmas” be a way of smashing any hint that pagan rituals of the “sex act” (which God created) be removed of any inherent power and all the true praise goes to YHWH Father God as it is suppose to? Does not celebrating Christmas and any an all things that elevate the true and only GOD magnify HIM and only HIM as in do everything to the glory of God? Does not “everything” also include Christmas?
I just have to interject here Tim that it makes my stomach very sick to watch my grandchildren bow to a pagan phallic symbol to pull useless gifts out from under it that were placed there for that purpose. Just a thought.
Interesting…..bowing to a pagan phallic symbol.
Because the only one who can do the conversion is God, not the church.
Why? How?
Tim, the direct answer to your question as to whether or not we can elevate the symbology of this day to include YWHW, is, unfortunately, “No”. Any cursory review of Scripture will spell out exactly what YWHW thinks of the pagan groves (trees) and symbols of worship as well as the instruction for us to not abide by it.
Period.
I am truly sorry to step back into the conversation so late, but i worked today. They needed people to cover and since most everyone else celebrated the day and were loath to give it up, i went ahead and volunteered.
Not my fault they chose to pay me double time and a half, is it? 🙂
In regards to the days of the week, i am fortunate that i work a job that allows me non traditional days off, therefore i can take Thursday and Friday off, go in mid afternoon on Saturday, as Shabbat closes down, and start my week from there. I understand that this is a blessing that not a lot of people are afforded, but it comes in time when i’ve not seen many good things and i accept this small token gladly.
As far as christmas and its roots, my sincerest apologies if i offended you. I posted only the facts of the history and it was not directed towards anyone specific. Seriously. Let me share with you…
I had a son on Christmas day. One i loved enough to release into an adoptive home. I didn’t feel i had a choice, considering the home i came from and the life we would both face if i kept him.
Christmas became sacred to me. As life moved on and i was able i purchased beautiful and even lavish decorations. I adorned every office, ever door, every inch of every home i ever lived in. I filled up a small storage shed with these decoration. It was as if paying homage to the baby jesus every year i was also giving a nod to my own babe, who i only saw twice, only held once.
Then i learned the truth about Christmas.
At first i just ignored it. Then i acknowledged it, but continued in my decorating. and then the decorating … just….fell flat for me. like, what once was a joy and effortless act of celebration and worship became tedious.
and then one year i threw everything away. Just like that.
Maybe 2 years later i get a call mid January. It’s a PI talking about some 26 year old adoptee looking for his birth mom, he was born on Christmas day….
Please don’t be offended by my post. It’s just facts. You grow into things like this and i have no ill will towards you if you decide to celebrate the day from now until the day you pass over, seriously. Your life is not my call to make.
But don’t deny me the right to live my life and state what are the facts, ok?
I don’t celebrate Hanukkah either. But a friend does. She is a little tight on money this year and was just so desperately wanting a Menorah to celebrate with. I purchased one, just a little one, and sent it to her. Not for me, you see, i don’t observe…it was for her.
Because that is family for you, right?
But no. I am not going to send you and christmas decorations. sounds like you have that covered. 😉
I know the pagan roots of Christmas….the “Facts” as you call it. I have read several books on it and have heard Skip “educate” on it for over 10 years. So that is why we don’t put up a tree or decorate the house. We use to and stopped years a go. We don’t make the “things” the focus.
Like everyday we make HIM the focus. Thanking Him and realizing with out Him that no matter what we have or don’t have means NOTHING! We cherish the extra time we have together and yes we even show it by giving each other gifts. As my 17 year-0ol daughter said it best today….”I like giving gifts more than receiving them.”
The problem I have is when people want to assume that because I use this time as an extra time to show my love to my family and add some extra joy into our lives I am “worshiping” anything other than my Father God.
So with that said….God Bless you and your family wishing you all of His great blessing today, tomorrow and Always!
I didn’t assume anything about your family, Tim, I don’t know you from adam. In fact, i know very few people on here, actually. My post was rather bland, sans finger pointing or singling anyone out.
YOUR post, however, was very defensive and almost offensive. And it was very pointed at me.
What’s up with that? I mean, if you are at peace w/where you are at and what you are doing, why did you do a nose dive in my direction?
These are rhetorical questions, i don’t need or expect a response. But you might consider what your answers would be, for yourself. I’m going to bed. Hope your day was all you wanted it to be. night.
oh wait..i figured it out. You took offense because of the “attention = worship” thing. Right?
Sorry. Just another fact of life we all have to live with. it’s not personal. it just is.
Sometimes in the heat of debate we all get aggressive. In this blog, no one takes it personally. It’s just part of being intense. I know Tim well. Let it go and move on to the ideas.
Forgive me if my questions seemed offensive to you. I did not mean them to be offensive. I am just seeking answers as we all are. Shalom.
It’s a stressful time of year with drivers alone and topics Skip seem to cover always challenge my thinking. It’s just hard to read tone in words when none of us really know each other on deep personal levels. So we can just read into things. No offense taken, hope I wasn’t upsetting to you in any way either. You nailed it with all of us are searching for answers, that’s why I love this blog. It’s a community that is willing to get a little bit uncomfortable. Shabbat shalom Tim, have a blessed one.
Well, i did kind of take a step back at your response, but really, there’s so much more to it then what is here.
Christmas, Tim, is NOT just what the ‘christian’ church celebrates. It is, in fact, a very high holy day for the occult. And by that i mean sacrifice. human sacrifice. innocent and not so innocent lives are forfeited every holy day that we have ascribe some kind of ‘holiness’ to that was never, will never, be.
it just won’t
when one understands and has interacted w/living people who have crawled out of the pit that these days thrive in, one just doesn’t take it lightly or participate in any fashion. ever.
it’s like standing around a fire, just one in the immense crowd, admiring the flames but not getting to close, blissfully unaware the core of that fire is feeding off the presence, the spirits of those standing around. Some of those are from the other side, desiring to walking holiness yet admiring the decidedly unholy beauty of the fire.
The core of the fire will always conceal the truth of its being, it’s intent so that it can feed off the spiritual innocents and ignorance of those people. It’s more then revolting to me, it’s a deep penetrating sadness that i can not even address.
Google high holy days and review for yourself what is going on each and every sacred day that is a point of contention. Consider from that point of view.
Torah is the only antidote for the world’s religion of witchcraft. and if anyone believes that these things don’t happen any more, you live in a world of bliss that i can only wish i could return to.
This is not well written, and for that i apologize for. I have only honor and respect for those who have shared with me the unspeakable and it is hard for me to try to address this side of the discussion.
but it is real. My apologies if i offended you as well. It was not my intent. Truth is my intent. sometimes i am just to direct.
I hear ya bpW, this is where I come from as well. It’s twisted world
I find certain things odd though. It’s like valentines day, people like buying the significant other flowers and taking them out to dinner. Truth be told if it’s the only time you do this, there is some major work that needs to be done. Same with buying gifts and spending family time. I’m not making assumptions about anyone or anything. Just saying, it’s just a day and I hope that people don’t wait until a day on the secular calendar to treat people well or spend time with folks in their family.
…and let’s not even get started on the etiology of Valentine’s Day.
I totally agree – there’s nothing wrong with taking time to enjoy family, especially since this is a day the world seems to stop and most people don’t have to work. We might as well make the most of the time.
But I knew that about you long ago, Tim. All this discussion should not lose site of the fact that the heart is the real issue. Yours is in the right place no matter what day it is.
So does that mean you have taken “Sun-day” off of your calendar or have you decided to opt out of the pagan Roman-Greek-calendar all together?
The order of the days of the week has never been an issue on this planet. That has been extremely well established. No one out there can say that it is. People all over the planet have been independently keeping track since day one. In fact, it would have taken an entire planet collectively hiccuping all at once, and all coming down at the same time on another day for it to have worked (the months and years, on the other hand, are another story), but not even the Greek/Roman calendar has messed with weekday order. Shabbat has always been on its weekly cycle since day one. Go research it. And keep it with confidence.
Laurita,
I was not talking about the order of the days, I was speaking to the facts that dpW made regarding Christmas being a pagan holiday from the beginning and therefore following the practice of Christmas was hence pagan and ” Therefore, observing the pagan holidays, with their pagan pajrphenilia is equal to worshiping the pagan gods.”
Asking the question about following the Roman-Greek Calendar and practicing the fact that Sun-day is actually a day of worshiping the Roman sun god I was making a point that NONE of us are innocent of following pagan practices.
(Skip Moen, “In Egypt, the sun god Re was the supreme god. The ninth plague is a direct assault on his power. Worship of the sun (and the moon) plagued Israel even after the demonstration in Egypt. In fact, it remains a significant influence in today’s religious world. Sun-day is no accident, and it has nothing to do with the resurrection on the “first” day of the week (which by Jewish reckoning would be anytime after sunset on Saturday))
The difference is though that Sunday I don’t think that most people are calling the Sabbath that are posting on this page. Also a big generalization but needs to be said modern Christians that do Sunday as their sabbath, they aren’t even doing sabbath. They go out and buy, have people work for them and it’s not a day set apart. Do I wear a shirt the same way a Pagan culture does, maybe? But the choice of looking how a pagan comes to their God and saying, “I really like that, I think I’ll do that instead of what He asked me to do”, is the same thing as if your or wife says, “I would like it for my birthday if you got me a day at the spa” and your reply when it comes to her birthday is, “I know you said spa but we’re going hunting because that’s what I want to do.” Its just a skewed way of thinking. It’s just golden calf all over. Yes we’re all guilty of sin, I would hope that once we realize we’re in sin then we Teshuva. If I’m laid off of work and automatically am not working on Sunday, that’s not a sin though or if you job isn’t open on Sunday that’s not a sin either.
Tim I am sorry. I must have totally missed that. I hope I wasn’t offensive. We are both pulling together on your above post!
No offense taken. God bless you and your family today and always. Shalom!
As i stated earlier, i do not observe the sun god’s day of worship. Nor did i prior to my present employment.
I am well versed in this specific area of study. It’s kind of like a dance, but not really. the enemy moves here, i move over there, he encroaches here, i stand my ground. Not everything is a hill to fight for.
Sometimes i’m like the child standing in the corner who is sitting in the rocking chair ‘in their heart’. 😉
Occultic synchronism is the world’s religion that has creeped into the ‘christian’ church so deeply that it is useless to even discuss it. My choice was to shut my mouth (kind of) and step out of it.
and so i did.
Hi Tim:
Small point, but maybe we should take Sun-day and all the remaining days that honor Greek deity off our list. 🙂
If we look to the Bible for names of the days, we find that only the day “Shabbat” has a name. All the rest are just numbered in relationship to Shabbat. That’s why the day after Shabbat is called the first day and the 6th day of the week was known as the day of preparation (for the 7th day, the day with a name: Shabbat.)
Would make calendars smaller and keep me from having to remember how to spell Wensday…..or is it Wednesday?
So as I sit here after exchanging gifts with my wife and children, treating each other (our neighbors) as we would treat ourselves, thanking God for all what we have and knowing that NONE of it would be worth anything without Him as the center of our lives I read Skip’s post and the post’s of others and I wonder….
Skip and others….so are you saying that Yeshua is not God but a perfect man who lived a perfect God life to defeat death and live how we should? If yes then what does that say for the rest of us….or at least me….who by no means live a perfect life and because of it can not defeat death? If Yeshua is not God then how can we see Him as Savior of all? And how can he have existed before all and (as you have said Skip) Yeshua’s blood was shed before earth and heaven were even formed to save us….can he be “just” a man?
Additionally while I strongly believe that while the virgin, immaculate conception birth is nothing to sneeze at, and that Yeshua’s ENTIRE life should be the focus since He/His life consistently and constantly pointed to YHWH, should I not always look to bring focus to YHWH in ALL that I do whether it is celebrating any celebration (anniversaries, birthdays, graduations, Christmas, waking up in the morning, etc) and acknowledging that it is all possible only because of Him acknowledging Him first and foremost? If yes, then why is it heresy to celebrate Christmas and use it as another day with the other 344/5 days of the year? Chanukah is not biblical, yet God’s people (Israel) uses this man-made holiday to celebrate God’s love for His chosen people. So why can’t we use Christmas as a day to celebrate God’s love for His people as well? As I said earlier, why can’t “Christmas” be a way of smashing any hint that pagan rituals of the “sex act” (which God created) be removed of any inherent power and all the true praise goes to YHWH Father God as it is suppose to? Does not celebrating Christmas and any an all things that elevate the true and only GOD magnify HIM and only HIM as in do everything to the glory of God? Does not “everything” also include Christmas?
I shouldn’t speak for Skips beliefs if he thinks Yeshua is God or not. I can say that I don’t think Yeshua is God. It’s not out of the blind either, I mean there are plenty of text that backs up that notion as well. But I don’t really know what skip believes or not.
Working backwards with Chanukah first, it’s interesting because there is evidence that it’s not made up. Rabbi David Fohrman has an excellent teaching on it. Shows where you can find it all in the Torah. How it’s very similar to the same points as the burning bush and the message it conveys. I wouldn’t do any justice trying to sum it up in a post but can only highly recommend you watch it at alephbeta.org. I don’t see how that is adding or taking away from Torah though.
I think the big thing with it though with the rabbinical ones is that you can add stuff for sure, we all have traditions its more though when it comes into conflict or supersedes the command in the Torah. Where does it say that you can’t do anniversaries, it doesn’t to my knowledge. Where does it say anything about xmas? There are things that say don’t do things Pagans do. It’s pretty simple on those lines.
His death on the cross was a manifestation of defeating death, Skip has a great book on it, “Crossword Puzzles” you can buy from him about that whole topic. Also I think he’s done several interviews on Hebrew Nation etc. But essentially it answers what we are suppose to get out of the cross event in Skips opinion based off some great research.
I don’t think that we get the luxury of saying what it means to us supersedes what it means to Him. The golden calf incident is case and point.
I grew up doing xmas, it was a fun time. As soon as I found out that “santa” is just a rearranged “Satan” and that “ho ho ho” comes from how they would announce Satan in plays then it lost its charm. Also how it’s a plethora of different things like fiery molech and the tree is Nimrods genitals and the tinsel is semen and the balls well you know…but before then it was great cheer. Rationalization is a funny thing though.
I don’t understand the argument that if Yeshua is not God then how can we see Him as a Savior at all comment. Not sure what you are getting at. I think a lot of questions though will be answered by the trinity series, cross word puzzles and Rabbi David Fohrman
The problem is not what you do with Christmas TODAY. Today it is a Christian religious symbol pretty much divorced from its origins. But it does have origins and those are not godly at all and not endorsed by any biblical text. By the way, I feel the same way about Chanukah if I disregard the historical basis of its inception because it is not in the “canon.”
Let me propose an analogy. To what may it be compared. These days in America we celebrate the 4th of July. These days it’s about picnics, baseball games, drinking and fireworks. In fact, I would venture to guess that most Americans no longer even know why we have fireworks or what the 4th of July is really all about. They no longer know the history. They celebrate a day off from work, and that’s about all they know about it. Does that mean the day has no history, that it only means what we make it mean with parades and parties? Or does its history matter?
So do we then STOP celebrating the 4th of July because most people don’t know it’s true roots? DO we stop celebrating veterans day because most of the tail end boomers and Gen X’ers don’t remember what a real War is? Stop Christmas from happening because our grandchildren are supposedly “bowing” to the pagan symbol? OR…..do we use those times that we are standing in front of the flag or thanking a veteran for their service, the same way that we use the times we stop and help a homeless traveler putting him up in a hotel for two nights with little money we have, to explain to the next generation, our children, with our actions AND words who GOD our Father is AND…..sorry for the trivial WWJD, but it fits! I believe that Yeshua, used the happenings of the day to explain and show the LOVE of the Father, not educate them on the historical perspective of the actions. Sorry I don’t mean any disrespect, I am just tired of trying to educate people into the kingdom instead of loving them into the kingdom. Maybe I’m just simple and have seen to much hurt that only His love can heal……the education will come later….with the questions.
I think you missed my point. Do you intend to celebrate the 4th of July WITHOUT telling people where it came from and why we have the holiday? Is it sufficient to simply enjoy the fireworks and let it go at that? So, applied to Christmas, don’t you want people to know where it came from and why it was adopted by the Church or would you rather just pretend that it has no history and only means what you want it to mean.
Please pass the hot dogs.
OH, sorry. One more thing. No one gets educated into the Kingdom. I have NEVER seen that happen. What I see is that people are open to God in crisis. They experience Him in some way. They find something they need. THEN the education begins, but in most cases it is an education that no one questions. It is doctrine, not examination. So the experience they had which was as real as it gets is molded to fit a doctrinal view, and from that point on they think that this explains what their experience means. But they never actually go back and examine the doctrines for themselves. They DRIFT into the views of whatever group they associate with (and I include readers of this blog as a group). Sometimes (rarely) that is sufficient, but I believe God expects more and directs us to seek more. That means suspending ANSWERS, not experiences, until we understand the QUESTIONS.
SO here’s the question: What did the first Messianic Jews believe about the birth of the Messiah, Yeshua? Did they celebrate his birth as the “God-Man” event? Did they think Christmas was so important that it became the second greatest religious festival of their days? Would they have embraced a Messiah who claimed to be God, YHVH in the flesh?
Technically, Skip, back in the day(s) of Messiah, birthdays weren’t observed. And when it came about that they were observed, the person who was having the birthday gave the party and gave the gifts, unlike now where the birthday person gives the party and EXPECTS the gifts.
just saying.
First, as near as I can tell, celebrating the 4th of July or Veterans Day (with parades, fireworks, bbq’s, etc.) does not violate any of the commands of YHWH, whereas worshiping both YHWH and His Son, in the same manner that the pagans worshipped their “gods”, is specifically prohibited. Why should I continue to worship the Father in a way that He neither requested nor condones?
Second, to address your final statements, why can’t the love be shown in the midst of the education? Do you not agree that the education itself can be an act of love? It seems that you are saying that love can only be shown by engaging in the fun and gifts that Christmas entails. Is it not loving to firmly re-direct a loved one if they are allowing their flesh to draw them into sin and death? Would it be loving to join a drunk for a drink if you knew he was killing himself?
Ultimately each of us must walk in our own world and decide on a minute by minute basis whether we are showing love the way the YHWH requires. In the end I think that He is going to show more grace to each of us than we could have ever imagined.
To say that accepting a “Christmas gift” from a young person who I am helping to get clean from a heroin addiction or from a fatherless boy who I am mentoring is the same as sharing a drink with a drunk because I didn’t reject a token of their thankfulness and jump into an historical perspective and educational series on the pagan practices of this holiday then so be it.
Call me simple and naive, but I guess I just believe in the old saying that people need to know how much you care before they care how much you know.
No you were just not being a jerk is all. Baruch Hashem that they are starting to walk the path. Baruch Hashem that they are turning from their past. But prayers for all of us are to continue to refine us, learn more about Him and follow His ways.
Look I use to be a bad dude, i was a very bad person. I look back and shutter. After hitting rock bottom what at got me out? Buddhism. Does it mean that Buddhism was right? No. It’ was just my Egypt. Then I got a bit better, was still a bad guy, hit rock bottom what got me out? Joel Osteen of all people. Each progression made me a bit better, had a crisis checked my faith and got refined until the point that I’m on my current path. Now at least I can say, I try to be good, fall short a lot of times, and love God so much and so undeserving of all the gifts He provides. We all have our own Eygpt. When He pulls us out of our Egypt, we begin our walk. Eventually He calls us out our Egypt and we move to the wilderness to refine us.
I don’t think anyone or at least certainty me, is saying slap a gift out of someone’s hand. For most people xmas is just about good cheer. I can’t control what others do, and I’ll love them through their process as I hope people love me through my learning process and trying to do better. But if I know something is wrong and I can control it in my own house then why wouldn’t I?
Do you understand that these are valid questions that everyone of us who frequent Skip’s blog have to prayerfully find answers for ourselves? That only a true seeker would even have the mental acuity to consider them and set about answering them for THEMSELVES?
There is not one person who is responding on here, Tim, even Skip, who has the answers for YOUR life. Nor is there anyone who will take from you the right to either ask them or find your place in all of them, even if it is not how we found our place in them.
Everyone has to grapple with these things. That’s what prayer and study is about, isn’t it?
I’ve grappled with crazy stuff only to wake up in the morning with the most simplistic answer in my heart.
I’ll support you prayerfully as you stand these things down. It’s what family does.
Merry Christmas Skip. May the Light that came into the world in Jesus shine on you today. Marjorie
Thank you.
Excellent article, Skip. Thanks. Most aren’t willing to devote time to research but rather enjoy their emotional pagan practices. “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge”
Well said Mark.
It’s the truth
Aren’t we all guilty of this?
In a nutshell, what are the core principles for living out a Christian faith?
Obedience to His instructions. But Jews that believed in Messiah and didn’t practiced together for quite some time after Yeshua’s death. Yeshua shouldn’t change the way that you live Torah. But we can argue about all things cognitively, I don’t think Torah is an item for discussion. All in my opinion. Probably someone else is more qualified to answer it then me though.
I should also add, we can argue on ‘how’ you do the mitzvah’s but the argument that the mitzvah doesn’t apply because Yeshua died on the cross is kinda bogus to me. There are ones that don’t apply if you are a guy because they deal with girls, there are ones that you can’t do because you aren’t a levite and a temple isn’t standing. So on and so forth.
http://www.wordsfortheheart.net/2012/12/what-the-angel-really-said-to-the-shepherds-in-the-field/
It is unfortunate the Edersheim’s interpretation of the message ignores the Jewish context in favor of the Christian doctrine. Perhaps you would also like to look at the material in Daniel Gruber’s book Copernicus and the Jews or in Anthony Buzzard’s two volumes.
Always interesting to see the multitude of comments whenever a standard of modern “Christendom” is challenged!
My husband and I stopped giving each other gifts some years ago for practical reasons but it freed us from part of the craziness of this particular season.
I find it pretty interesting how folks get caught up in all the accepted stuff that people (pagan or religious) do at this time of the year. It surely is a lot of distraction and can cause some hurt feelings and financial disasters as well. For what?
I think holiday lights are pretty but that is about the only thing I am comfortable with now. The rest of the holiday “stuff” I will pass on. Each must choose for themselves what they will do. *Grace still applies to us all as we journey.* Let me explain a small part of that grace…… I do not chastise those who still have trees and give gifts but I do not expect to be chastised for choosing not to do so myself!
I would agree with the quote that “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.”
Indeed.
Well, the story in Mathew 2:1-23 about the birth of Yeshua, is narrated with only two groups of people, King Herod who believes it was a very big deal, the Magi from the East who thought it was a big enough deal to travel with gifts of Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh, oh and a third group if you want to include the one who led them with a Star in the sky to the very time and location of this child’s birth, they all are in agreement that this event is A VERY BIG DEAL!! So big the Magi are willing to risk their lives to find this king so they can “Worship Him” and king Herod is so threatened by the thought of the coming Messiah coming on his watch that he orders all the children 2 years old and under to be murdered!
But Skip Moen has a different opinion, you disagree with King Herod, you disagree with the Magi, and I guess you disagree with God who led them by the star, and all the other signs with dreams protecting and guiding out of the country and bringing back safely. The scriptures say “all of Jerusalem” was troubled at the news of a “king being born of the Jews”
Skip Moen, did you read the story or did you just decide it is not important because it was only mentioned twice instead of three or four times?
As for me, I would love to imagine if I was alive in that day, to have eyes to see the star in the East and a heart so longing for the coming King, be so brave and filled with wisdom to lay down my life and follow them to Him-
I am asking the King of the Jews, Yeshua, to soften your heart and let you read the story again for the first time, come and adore Him, it is your privilege, if you believe, as the Magi did.
Dear Sharon,
I am quite familiar with the story. Yes, Herod and the Magi thought it was important (a big deal), but WHY? Because Herod was paranoid about his throne and the Magi came to worship a king. New kings were a big deal. That does not mean either thought more of the event than the birth of a new king. The only ones who seem to understand YHVH’s thinking about the birth are the shepherds and they were told that this event signified the coming kingdom of peace on earth. In fact, that is the same message Yeshua preached. The kingdom is at hand. THAT is a big deal. While the birth ushers in the beginning of the kingdom on earth since it is about the birth of the king, all I was trying to point out is that this event does not carry the same weight in the gospels that we find in Christianity today. As I noted, two of the four authors don’t even mention it and it is never mentioned in any of the letters. That does not mean it isn’t important. It is, but it just isn’t like the festivals.
Furthermore, it seems quite clear from history that the celebration at the winter equinox is a syncretism of pagan rituals with Christian religious ideas, based not on Messianic Jewish practices but on Roman religious ideas. If that is the case, then while we may want to honor the birth of the King, it seems to me that we would not want to honor the JEWISH, Torah-oberservant King of Israel with a celebration that has its roots in pagan worship. Since it is highly unlikely that Yeshua was born during the winter equinox, you may wish to honor his birth, but do you really want to do that on a day which ties his birth to pagan practices?
So, I am not disagreeing with Herod (although I certainly do not endorse his motives) or with the Magi or with the shepherds or angels. What an amazing event! The Messiah has come. Everything changes. But I am questioning why we use a pagan holiday (if you investigate the history you might just be shocked at what happened on this holiday) to commemorate this event. AND I am concerned that the Jesus we honor with this pagan holiday is NOT THE MESSIAH of Scripture who is King of the Jews, chosen by YHVH to recall the lost sheep of the house of Israel and who will sit on the throne in the restored kingdom of Israel. The Jesus of Christmas is not Jewish, is not Calling the lost sheep of Israel and is certainly not concerned with Torah observance. The Jesus of Christmas isn’t someone that the disciple would have recognized. He is the universal Christ, an idea rather than a human being.
I have NO DOUBT at all that there are thousands of sincere, God-fearing believers who wish to honor the birth of their savior. I know Tim well. He is certainly one of these. I am NOT arguing against the desire to honor the King of kings or the sincerity of our concern about given him the recognition he deserves, even at this birth. I am only suggesting that doing so with a celebration that has ties to violent and horrible acts based on worshipping false gods might not be the proper way to do this. This is not about individuals who wish to worship the true Messiah and the God who sent him. This is about a RELIGION that teaches something not found in Scripture and calls it holy.
I think that it is also significant that Herod had not heard of the birth until the Magi came through town, which, from what I have read, occurred approximately 18-24 months after Yeshua was born. If the news given to the shephards was about the birth and was of such great significance, why did it not spread just a few miles (from Bethlehem to Jerusalem) in such a long period of time. Certainly people in Bethlehem would have regularly travelled to Jerusalem (and not just for the Feasts). A story of such significance should have reached Herod before 2 years had passed. I mean, Jericho had heard of the parting of the Red Sea and they were no where near Egypt (yes, I know, it was over a longer period of time, but everything is relative.)
It is also important to remember that “worship” is not reserved for God, in the sense that the church teaches. “Worship” is merely atributing “worth” to someone or something. Let’s not assume that the use of the word “worship” means that they believed that Yeshua was either YHWH-on-earth, or even the Messiah. As Skip stated, the birth of any future king would be celebrated. Look at how we treat “royalty” today. Nothing changes.
We are still Roman, aren’t we?
Sadly, yes.
I think it’s a quadrenty, how else does Santa fit in? 🙂 as far as trinity my thought is we tend to read as 21 century Christians who already believe it. But if we were 1st century Jews, this would be a major theological statement. Same with our current understanding of the Holy Spirit. I think if it what tends to be taught today Yeshua would have spoken about it, and probably thoroughly. Think about it, say he came again today and that in itself kind of threw off or theology and there is actually a 4th person of the trinity. We would be like…WHAT HOLD UP, and expect done clarification. I think they would have also. I think if we apply what little we have to base trinity on, and put ourselves in the same scenario, without thorough teaching by him,I don’t think we would consider what we have conclusive fir such a drastic change in theology. If that makes sense.
Thank you, Skip, for a thought-provoking article. And thank you, everyone, for your comments. A vigorous and intense debate is part of learning, so long as we maintain sound reasoning and avoid logic fallacies.
I think people contributing to this discussion offer two different perspectives.
I think most of us agree Christmas is founded on pagan celebrations.
Where we differ is in answering the question:
“What’s the harm?”
Skip is a teacher. He understands the need to know his subject inside and out. He understands the necessity of teaching true things. He has seen, through his research into history, the harm that has come from instruction based on or laced with falsehoods. He takes the “big view,” if I may call it that.
Some others take a narrower view. They are less concerned with history. They see opportunities of the moment, opportunities in which to exercise righteousness.
I like this anonymous quote:
“The understanding helped me more than being right.”
Understanding another’s point of view doesn’t mean we agree with that party. It just means we can see why they think the way they do.
Skip ended this Today’s Word by asking, “Don’t you think it’s worth knowing the history of this idea?”
I do.
And now I also understand why others might not think so.
Agreed. Rabbi Daniel Lapin said something that made me shake. In Hebrew there is no word for ‘religion’. If you let that sink in for a moment, it’s crazy. The implications are, it doesn’t matter what you cognitively know, it matters what you do. What you do defines your belief system in God’s eyes from what I gather is it’s how you live your life. At the core you summed it up. The tricky aspect of all this though is we aren’t in Israel (or majority that are posting on this blog ), most of us don’t have a huge community support behind us in our decisions (in terms of physical community), so navigating through different instructions is and can be pretty tricky. It’s a balance of trying to please Him the best we know how in an environment that isn’t “user friendly” necessarily from the macro level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWq60oyrHVQ
These trinity and christmas discussions are always great reading, and food for thought of me. I can identify with Tim’s position. By nature I am interested in the historical root of a whole lot of things, much less the life and resurrection of Yeshua. However, I have yet to meet anyone, believer or not, that cares what I know historically, unless they first know I care about them, or they are simply a “religious” person trying to convert me to whatever their pet view happens to be. I do think the ‘church” should teach the real roots of christmas, among several other things they don’t teach. However we know they don’t, and I had to learn for myself long ago. I knew of the pagan historical roots of christmas as long as ago as the early 1970s, but I have enjoyed the christmas holidays, trees and all, since then. I still absolutely believe it “is worth knowing the history of this idea.” It is one more piece in a long list of things that have changed since Yeshua walked the earth.
However, I am much more concerned with any hypocrisy in my behavior in relation to YHWH’s 10 commandments than I am if someone, including Hasatan, believes I am paying homage to a pagan god by having a christmas tree in my living room. I try not to complicate the simple. These are not religious symbols to me. They are lights, nothing more. I had a long talk with my daughter about the historical nature of Christmas this year. My family laughed watching Christmas Vacation again. But we spend more time talking about coveting, and being content with YHWH’s provision, and HIs Son, than we do whether we are worshipping a pagan god that does not exist at all.
If one day we woke up and the Christmas issue had morphed into a repeat of, say, the issue of the Mass, and trans-substantiation (which is the belief that bread and wine become god when it is blessed), would this discussion be different?
I understand that perhaps more people were slaughtered over the issue of the Mass than over any other single issue in religious history. We will never even know. (Well, this past century does stand alone.)
Perhaps we do not even know where we really stand on something, or what we truly believe, until it costs us something. Truth has always seemed to cost. Error, on the other hand, always seems to be free! Until then, fun discussion!
Just testifying……….!!!
I’m surely not as smart as most of you 🙂
When I discovered the pagan beginnings of all of the holidays, (not just christmas)-;
Questioning why i had not been taught God’s ways and the appointed times He declared –
I felt to share these new teachings, insights, thoughts, revelation about the deep ways of GOD, (that Jesus is Jewish Yeshua, etc.,..). especially desiring my loved ones to know – so they would also want more understanding of God’s way(s) and ultimately more of HIM.
If I had ‘gotten’ this, surely they would understand and agree..!??? in fact, I couldn’t keep it bottled up inside me because it was just too BIG. How was it I did not know this before???
But it was evident that trying to explain these deep things, actually caused separation and distrust. I even felt hated at times, by my own family. They seemed to think that I had turned away from my history, my family, my belief system -all that had been and was fine- even holy, to them.
I continued to ask God for more of Him and for understanding, praying that I would not be deceived,
God, The Word, began teaching me, through Himself – The WORD.
He taught and continues to teach me about:
INTIMACY (yada)
(His sheep hear His Voice! Truly! He knows me and I know Him!)
LOVE
(because my best thoughts of love and the Love that IS LOVE – are not even close.)
COVENANT
HE IS a Covenant Keeping God!
(He is (continually) teaching me- what is COVENANT;
what does it means to keep Covenant;
how does it look to walk covenant ?!!!!
this is a daily walk – COVENANT)
REPENTANCE
(God is serious about repentance- and His ways are higher and so different.
True repentance – Life-changing repentance!)
True WORSHIP- SPIRIT and TRUTH
OBEDIENCE
(Only He knows what He requires of me. I will stand before Him on my own.)
His PERFECT PEACE
SHALOM
I keep asking for more of HIM! The depths of the knowledge of GOD….!!!
PRAISE GOD!
He loves me and
teaches me and
requires my obedience and
refines me –
all for HIS PURPOSES.
I HAVE HIS PROMISED SHALOM!!! – even through the testing!
I will continually praise The One True GOD!
SHALOM and the completeness of His promises to me are evident daily – even in the fire!
HE alone is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control!!!
HalleluYAH!
(It is when I have no opinion and allow no offense to slip in, there is greater peace. Only with Him through me is this possible….I cannot accomplish this on my own…. this dying to self…..)
Messiah Yeshua was offensive to most people…can I expect it to be any different for those of us called by Him?
It (everything I do and am and have) is all for the glory of God.
For His glory! For His Name’s sake!
Thank you Father YHWH!
I praise His Holy Name
and give HIM all the glory for the great things He has done in my life!
He has allowed me to see His mighty Hand that truly saves!!!!!
Thanks be to GOD the Father!
Blessings for SHALOM to those seeking who are called according to His great purpose!
(and thanks, Skip, for your dedication and enjoyable studies!)
Historically, it is well-established that the early church (before the 4th century) didn’t pick out a day to celebrate Yeshua’s birth. They continued to celebrate the God-ordained feasts that are so clearly described in Scripture. Have you ever considered that there is no need to have another day of celebration? Yeshua is the fulfillment of all that was prophesied in the EXISTING format. God has no need for man to add to His Holy Days.
When I first began celebrating the God-ordained festivals (which includes Shabbat), I felt they were a burden — so many days to add into the existing calendar of holidays! Gradually, I became aware that when I only focus on God’s Holy Days, they are not a burden. The burden is trying to fit God’s ways, into mine. I no longer celebrate Christmas and Easter because for me, these days detract, divert and distract from the true appointed times. We’re the ones that make the yoke heavy — not Yeshua and certainly, not Torah.
AMEN!!!
Test
Lots of interesting comments. It reminds me of how little we actually know, most likely by design of YHVH, for His own purposes, yet we humans seem to desperately need to figure it all out and “have answers”. We don’t even know what dark matter is. We’ve barely known about DNA for 15 minutes. Not that we shouldn’t study. Study is good, as is midrash. And, of course, it is important to reject those things YHVH clearly detests. I’m just tossing out that we don’t get to know a whole bunch of stuff because YHVH, Most High, is God, and He isn’t allowing us to have some of the answers we seem to urgently crave.
Something I’ve been pondering lately: Doesn’t it seem like the slick moves of the adversary to use the God of Abraham and pervert things to such an extent that 2 billion people insist Allah is that same God, and that they must follow Mohammed (who seems to be elevated above God), to receive eternal paradise, or they will inherit eternal damnation. And is it not possible that the adversary’s strategy was to use the God of Abraham and twist another cult, also with 2+ billion followers, that elevates Jesus (not talking about the Jewish Yeshua) above God, assuring them that all they have to do is believe Jesus is God, he died for their sins, rose from the dead, and is to be worshipped above God? And if they don’t believe post-Jesus doctrine over pre-Jesus (Torah and Hebrew history), then off to hell you must go. Christianity is a very attractive religion. Maybe that is why so many people allege to be Christians. Why do followers of both become so indignant, defensive, and often hateful against those who reject their religion?
It can be terrifying to step back, step away, step out, and evaluate ALL Christian indocrination. There are so many hooks in Christianity, especially for those of us raised in the church, that even as one-by-one, the hooks are identified and removed, the “you’re going to hell if you don’t accept Jesus as your personal savior” is a mantra that can’t be escaped, even in the Messianic/Hebrew Roots communities.
What if YHVH decided to send Yeshua, as the Living Torah, to call back His people to walk with God, to remind them, in living color, what it looks like to follow the simple instructions given originally. Things had gotten so “off” (as they are today), yet, out of His love, what if He sent the Living Torah, allowing a few years of observation for some, to see what living Torah really is? If Yeshua is Torah, He could not be tripped up. He could not be stumped. He knew exactly how to answer every question and handle every situation. He did not change Torah because he was Torah. He spoke in parables and he said and did what came from the Father. What the Father says is Torah. Therefore, Torah was not destructible, by Roman power, by Ha Satan, or by any religion. You can’t crucify Torah. The Romans tried. Torah is indestructible. Even the Catholics couldn’t erase writtenTorah from their Bible. I honor Yeshua. He is holy. If He is the Living Torah, I have so much to learn from him, what he said, and how he lived (from Hebrew understanding at that time), not a Christian explanation I got in Sunday School. I don’t worship the Torah. I worship the ONE who gave us Yeshua/Torah. Is Yeshua the Living Torah??? Is Yeshua the Messiah??? Is the Living Torah the Messiah??? I cannot conclude.
As I stated earlier, the above are just curent day wonderings. I could be totally wrong. “I don’t know” are words I say often now. That was not the case when I was a Christian. I’m ok with all the uncertainty because I love YHVH and I’m learning of His ways. If His plan is for man to walk with Him and He gave simple instructions for how we are to do that, sounds like a good place to start, and maybe even finish.
Even now, I inhale Shabbat and the Shalom of honoring YHVH, His Creation, His Magnificance, His Grandness, His Beauty, His Gifts, His Torah, His Love, His Mercy, His Forgivenes, His Covering. His People. His Rest.
May we all set aside this day to honor His commandment, to receive from Him what the world cannot take from us. Shabbat Shalom…………
PS I talk too much. sorry.
Beautifully said. 🙂
Thank you Alicia. I’m happy for you that YHVH has brought you to this place in your journey, and at such a young age. I’m 30 years older than you, and even though my path took longer to get me here, I’m happy for me too. : )
We’re all blessed to be receiving YHVH’s mercy.
Shalom…………Marci
Marci — I like what you said about frequently saying, “I don’t know”, and how that wasn’t the case when you were a Christian. My experience exactly — isn’t it funny, that when we knew so little about how to walk, we thought we had all the answers. Back then, I didn’t even know there were questions. 🙂
Hi Suzanne ~
Good to hear from a fellow sojouner. Yes, it is strange to stand outside what was once very familiar territory, the land of “we have all the right answers”. I’m so grateful to have been released from that bondage.
After receiving your response to my comments, I vividly recalled an incident that occurred during my Sunday School childhood. I was in the 4th grade. The larger group of kids would split into small, same gender, SS classes, to review the assignments we’d completed at home during the previous week, and to recite our memory verses. In the discussion of our Bible study and answers to the curriculum questions, I asked an unscripted question of my teacher (the Assist. Pastor’s wife), and was promptly silenced with “We don’t ask those kinds of questions”. Although I was a curious girl and liked to learn, I was also an obedient child, and wanted to please. Thus, many a question was never asked and eventually, my brain learned to bypass unwelcome inquiries, and I soaked in the teachings as gospel (pun intended).
Sadly, that transferred into academics as well. When any topic was raised in school, be it science, politics, history, etc., if it didn’t harmonize with my Christian learning, I couldn’t even consider alternative views. How could I? I already had the pat answers.
In my adult years, I was a SS teacher, and served up the same doctrines, on the same platter, though I tried to make things of God, real, happy, and relevant to the kids. To this day, I pray for them, and I haved asked YHVH for His forgiveness, and to redeem those hundreds of kids, for HIS NAME’S SAKE!!
The following quote from Skip really says a lot. “What I see is that people are open to God in crisis. They experience Him in some way. They find something they need. THEN the education begins, but in most cases it is an education that no one questions. It is doctrine, not examination. So the experience they had which was as real as it gets is molded to fit a doctrinal view, and from that point on they think that this explains what their experience means. But they never actually go back and examine the doctrines for themselves. They DRIFT into the views of whatever group they associate with (and I include readers of this blog as a group). Sometimes (rarely) that is sufficient, but I believe God expects more and directs us to seek more. That means suspending ANSWERS, not experiences, until we understand the QUESTIONS”.
SKIP ~ Thank you. Fabulous! This is going to help me when I try and explain what is happening in my life, and why. It’s nearly impossible to talk about any of this with Christian family and friends (they don’t want to know), but this simple yet deep explanation is possibly a concept a few of them will consider.
Suzanne ~ A little btw………I am also a retired RN. : )
YHVH Bless and Keep You All………………Marci
Marci! How rare and how wonderful and inspiring! How great to see it through your eyes. Thank you for having the courage to change from glory to glory. What an example of how it is done. You made my day! Those questions are where I have long suspected us sheep are supposed to be grazing. We are supposed to be ingesting the right questions. How silly of me who used to think that it was supposed to be ANSWERS! The answers are meaningless without the questions. Like, duh. You go, girl!
On Christmas Eve, along with my wife, I attended a late night church service which was, of course, to celebrate the birth of the Savior. After the usual songs and quoting of scripture the pastor made a few remarks. I was surprised and saddened by what he said.
He asked the question “Why do we celebrate holidays like Christmas and Easter” He answer was “The church created a calendar to celebrate events in biblical history that are important to Christians”. Then he went on to say this was so the story of these events could be told and passed on to succeeding generations.
I was surprised by the honesty of the first part of his answer about the church creating a calendar. But it saddened me as I thought “What was wrong with the calendar that God created?”. And how much better the appointed times of the Lord communicate His plan for interacting with mankind. Even the celebration of Hanukkah, although not an appointed time but which our Master apparently observed (John 10:22), is a beautiful picture of the Light of the World. And it also communicates the message of overcoming the evil influence which tries to snuff out the people of God and the practices He established.
I also thought the part of his answer about the purpose of these celebrations was sort of dishonest. They weren’t created by the church primarily to tell the stories, but rather to distance themselves from anything Jewish as Skip has pointed out. Instead of celebrating the events that God created, the church had to create their own man-made observances.
Yes, as some of the comments have indicated, we can find good in these celebrations of the church if we look hard enough. Kindness, good will, generosity, helping the poor and bringing joy to children are a few of the things we can appreciate. But this does little to communicate the gospel of the Kingdom and how Messiah not only came as a baby, but is returning as a King to establish the worldwide rule of God. These celebrations don’t really help to make disciples for our Master. Unfortunately, for many people, the hectic commercialism that Michael C. described above overshadows the good that is done. I have known many people over the years, even Christians, who if they are honest are glad when the Christmas holiday is over and experience a feeling of letdown, disappointment and even depression afterwards. They have the feeling of “is this all there is to the message of Christ coming into the world?”. And for children I’m afraid it communicates that the story of Jesus is not unlike the fantasies of Santa Clause, Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer and Frosty the Snowman.
I just find it sad that as the crowning creation of God, we humans can’t seem to glorify God by doing things His way. From the very beginning we have always felt the need to create our own way of doing things. And then we ask God to bless what we are doing. Our rebellion shows up in the most unexpected places. Sometimes even in our celebrations that are supposedly about Him.
Mel – Two questions. First, since you understand the meaning of the Father’s calendar, why did you go in the first place? Second, why were you surprised by the Pastor’s comments? It seems to me that if the Pastor doesn’t toe the party line (and occasionally argue in favor of the historical relevance of the Church’s holidays), then he won’t keep his job very long. I would think that it would be unlikely that he would choose that night to come to the revelation of the truth and teach on Yom Teruah, Sukkot, or any other appointed time.
Many readers on this site continue to attend Christian churches. Usually they are motivated to do so because they genuinely care for people they know in those congregations and wish them to have someone who can help them understand the relevance of the Tanakh. Sometimes it’s because they are called to remain in the congregation to act as a witness. Sometimes it’s just because they have family or friends there. Why they go or why they stay doesn’t really matter. What matters is where God puts them for that season. We all have roles to play and sometimes those roles include being in places where there it is very dark.
I fully understand. I know a few people in similar situations where they have been led to be a light to a congregation that is clearly opposed to the desire to know more than they have been taught. I was curious to know Mel’s circumstances.
I just recently went back to church after being away for over 5 years. I go for no other reason except that I am too alone in my journey. I am concentrating on relationships not on what is being preached from the pulpit. I have life experiences and wisdom that need to be shared with other people. I’m remembering it’s about the love and joy that comes from praying/helping/loving others, not theology. I forgot that when I began to walk a Torah way of life.