Inspired vs. Sacred vs. Canon
It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, Jude 1:14 NASB
Enoch – According to some theological schools of thought, Scripture is the only true basis for interpreting Scripture. In other words, if I want to know what a verse means, I must determine that meaning from other verses in Scripture, that is, in the canonized text. Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to be the thinking of the authors themselves. In this passage, Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch. The prophecy that Jude cites is found nowhere in the canon of Scripture. But Jude doesn’t seem to have any qualms about using it in his letter. And Jude isn’t the only one. Examples of this adaptation of other inspired but not canonical writings occur throughout the Tanakh and the apostolic writings. Look at THIS for many occurrences and a discussion of the material in Jude. The author attempts to exonerate Jude by suggesting that Jude uses this material in the same way a contemporary preacher might use an atheist’s material. But that overlooks the point that even if elements of this citation are found in the canon, they are not attributed to Enoch. Jude clearly says that Enoch prophesied, but the closest canonical text comes from Isaiah, not Enoch. Jude clearly borrows the material from the Book of Enoch, a pseudepigraphic work known in the first century. That means Jude uses non-canonical material to explain the meaning of his message to his readers. He uses material not in the Bible. And he doesn’t bat an eye.
Jude, Paul, the narrators of Kings, large sections of Proverbs, portions of the Psalms, etc. all come from material outside the canon. This fact should cause us to rethink what we mean by inspired, sacred and canon. Inspired is not the same as sacred. Inspired means something that moves me to greater understanding, greater emotion or greater moments of experience. Sunsets can be inspired. Music can be inspired. Poetry can be inspired. Inspired material becomes sacred when a group adopts it as part of the group’s practice of faith. Thus, the Tanakh is sacred. The Quran is sacred. The Vedas are sacred. For Christians in particular, the apostolic writings are sacred. None of these are necessarily canon. Canon is that material recognized as inspired, treated as sacred and officially sanctioned by the greater organizing body or institution of the religion. The Bible is canon (although what it contains is determined by what religious organization is involved). When it comes to the Bible, no canon existed during the time of Yeshua. The canon is a much later addition to what was fluid, sacred and inspired writings. One might even ask, given what we find in Jude and other examples, if there was any idea of canon in the Jewish way of life in the first century. The answer is “Yes,” but not in the sense of the later Christian idea. What was canon for the Jews was the word of God dictated by God through His prophets. All the rest was simply inspired and sometimes viewed as sacred.
So now we need another distinction. In some theological circles, the term “word of God” is applied to all canonical writings, and only to these writings. This leads to the statement that Scripture is the interpreter of Scripture. After all, if the canon contains God’s words, every one of them, then it is the only secure way to understand God’s words. But if we pay close attention to the use of the terms “word of God” in the Bible, we discover that only those words given directly by God to His prophets are actually the words of God. Everything else, the narrative, the poems, the songs of praise, the stories, the history, the letters and the accounts are inspired, treated as sacred, but not the words of God. What God says directly through His prophets are His words. The rest is (can I even say it?) commentary.
That means that Jude’s use of Enoch is not inappropriate. Jude is communicating to readers who need help. They need to know. So Jude uses what’s available, what his audience would already recognize. He alters the citation to fit his message. He is not writing “the words of God.” He is writing an inspired message of hope. When we use the term “Word of God” loosely, we gloss over the distinction between God’s words and our definition of what is sacred. Clarity helps.
If you re-read your canon (whichever one you choose) with this in mind, you will discover very quickly that what God actually says is but a small part of the material we consider sacred. It is all inspired, but it is not all God’s words. That means what words God actually said are even more important. You might start in Genesis and read only those words God actually spoke, just to see how differently your understanding would be if you cut out the commentary.
And then ask yourself, “What do those words mean for me?”
Topical Index: inspired, sacred, canon, word of God, Jude 1:14, Book of Enoch
I can see it now! The Purple letter edition of the Bible with God’s WORDS in purple. It would sure make reading the scriptures a different experience.
Too funny – I had the same thought and even picked the same color – btw – I have already highlighted (in green) every appearance of the tetragrammaton – just so that I would be more AWARE of it -so this project is already started! It HAS made a difference and really made me sad that we cannot see the difference between “Lords” of the NT – so far I only can recognize which Kyrios is LORD if the verse is an OT quote…. and that reveals some interesting things!
Thanks Skip for Today’s explanation of these terms!
Finally – someone able to say it OUT LOUD! HalleluYAH!
“Thy Word is Truth.” “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”
Distinction is going to be critical when all is going to be challenged. Rightly dividing the word of truth is an exercise that can only be done successfully with help from beyond our mortal abilities. We were told to ask earnestly for the gifts necessary to walk in these places, and the gift of discernment is not an accessory; it is the only safe portal. And even, at the end of the day, if we have all the right words lined up in all the right rows, we can still miss the only ship leaving the port if we do not have the final necessary ingredient: faith. Yes, we were told to ask for that gift, too! At no place are we ‘safe’. There are no battlements that we are able to hide behind; not even the Bible. Only in Him, His Spirit, His faith, His confirmation of His Word, His Mind in us, are we safe. Yes, we were told to ask for those things, too! Wonder why?!
It took me decades to realize that the words were not enough. The reason must be because if there were another rope; another tower, another stairway to heaven, even WORDS to heaven, we were going to be tempted to haul ourselves up that way, but, but, only by FAITH can we please Him, only by FAITH can we receive Him, and only by FAITH do those precious Words come alive in my life: another Person living His will through me. Yes, His Words are essential, and the inspiration is real, and the canon is as correct as we could figure out how to make it, but, it is still not enough. An Interpreter is still required. In the story of Pilgrim’s Progress, I wondered why it was necessary for Pilgrim to stop at the house of the Interpreter; why, he had the scroll – wasn’t that enough? But he needed the Spirit, too. And another companion, which was Faith. We need help every step of that journey; at no point can we do it alone, on our own effort, our own analysis, our own interpretation. To rightly divide that Word, we need Him, and we need His Mind, in us. Not for nothing were we promised the Spirit of Yeshua. Yes, we must ask for that gift, too!
It has been brought home to me over and over and over, that the Bible is not written for the lost. Bible verses quoted to ‘win’ people have the opposite effect mostly. Bible verses quoted from one Christian to another don’t even ‘work’! At least here in this forum, this is respected, I have noticed! No, the words alone do nothing. Still just words. It seems to me most like a secret code written in plain sight. People seem to have not much trouble recognizing that, but time after time attempts are made to ‘crack the code’, but they never do. Hmmm. What is missing? I have noticed many a man, or woman, has made a shipwreck of their faith when they succumbed to the temptation to divide those words for themselves. It is by faith that those Words come alive in our lives. There is not one statement that I have found in that Good Book; no, not even the “quotes”, that did not leave room for faith. All, all, have an additional component that is necessary for me to receive them; all of them together, even, are not enough to build a rock foundation. I think it was entirely deliberate that we were intentionally NOT given all the facts, all the details, necessary to build OUR OWN FAITH upon. I have thought that perhaps we need to quit looking for ‘proof’ of faith, and just start asking directly for faith! There is NO PROOF in that whole entire Book that is enough to ‘prove’ anything! It all takes faith! There is nothing, either added to, or even LEFT OUT of that text that is enough to ‘prove’ anything at all; even so much as to prove His Existence! I am suspicious that it may be wisdom to recognize our edges, so as not to fall into these type temptations.
Truth is a Person. Whether it is truth spoken by YHVH, or His Son, Yeshua, or by His Spirit directly to convict me, it is all a Person, and I must receive it directly from Him, before that Truth can live in me. Those are the Words that I cannot ‘do’ to myself; I cannot assign my own mind to THINK them into existence in my life. No, they are Words that must HAPPEN to me. Amen. Even so, come.
Or, Carl could sing them!
What’s the rest of the song, Carl?
“Sing them over again to me, wonderful Words of Life…” Halleluah!
The Spirit is essential but probably the most dangerous part of our attempt to know the truth. Inner psychological certainty, usually sought by those who proclaim the guidance of the Spirit, is immune to critical review (after all, it is CERTAIN) and is therefore subject to enormous influences that often render the claims incomprehensible or nonsensical. For example, 52,000 protestant denominations can’t all be lead by the Spirit and still disagree with each other. Such nonsense makes a mockery of God’s words. So while I understand and appreciate the leading of the Spirit, this is LAST on my list for exegesis. It scares me to death when someone says, “Yes, but the Spirit showed me that this is the right way to understand the verse.” As far as I can tell, the only ones I am certain were led by the Spirit were the prophets. And they died a long time ago.
Most certainly, and I am as scared and repulsed as you; however, discernment is promised, and the proof is in the pudding. We have to be Fruit Inspectors. Show me the money! And, yes, comparing scripture with scripture DOES help to weed this garden. The wheat grows with the tares, and we have no defense against the tares because they are among us. However, I think it is certain that we have to dispense of love in every direction, to all, at all times, precisely in light of the fact that we do not know which is which. Now THAT, I do know!
I totally agree…..after walking in this …. walk…. for 30+ years now….have been there, done it … and got the t-shirt…don’t want it. When someone says to me ‘The Spirit has told me that … you…..’ … I immediately back up … bite my tongue and hold my breath (and usually make my exit). My Father is not a gossip ….. if he hasn’t told me first….well, you can see where this is going. After all…….how do you argue/discuss something with someone else who is ‘speaking with the utterance of the ‘Spirit” ?? just a thought.
Religious spirits abound, and they are not of G-d!
I just got back from shul and couldn’t wait to get back on your blog. Dear Skip thank you again for explaining this about all hearing from the Spirit of G-d. I think these thoughts and am the type of person who needs them confirmed in me so I am more sure of my growing understanding. I can’t wait to be in Israel with you, rabibi Gorelik, and the rest of us to be personally learning from you again there. Thank you for telling us to Read Daniel Gruber’s Copernicus and the Jews. I finished it last week and now I can connect the dots on G-d’s purpose of the Holy Land. I also can grasp what Rabbi Paul texts better (especially Romans) and the author of Hebrews concerning the function of the Jews being made to live for G-d so all can know He is able to save us all.
TODA ! 🙂
I agree absolutely! Personal experience too! “…who proclaim the guidance of the Spirit, is immune to critical review (after all, it is CERTAIN)” What a nonsensical JOKE, and presumptuously in error, of course! Definitely using the Spirit of YHWH in vain.
That was my reply to Skip’s comment to Laurita’s.
“Canon is that material recognized as inspired, treated as sacred and officially sanctioned by the greater organizing body or institution of the religion. The Bible is canon (although what it contains is determined by what religious organization is involved). When it comes to the Bible, no canon existed during the time of Yeshua.”
I challenge all of us to read and re-read and read again this truth. I find this frightening … and something that I’ve been trying to say since I was a small child (in the days when I could hear God more clearly… before man-made religion entered my thoughts.)
You are so brave, Skip. Thank you. I love your love of truth.
This is very timely. Our home group has spent some time looking at the Book of Enoch (and the Book of Watchers contained within it). In particular, the Book of Watchers sheds some interesting light on the stange reference to the Nephilim in Genesis 6:4.
But when we hear the phrase ‘the Bible is inspired by God”, don’t most Christians understand something more is being said than ‘that music is inspired’, for example? Don’t they mean, as Peter writes (or does he really?) – all scripture is inspired by God, etc.etc.?
It’s Paul who write that, to Timothy, in reference to the Tanakh.
But your question might rather be, “Do WE attach new meaning to the word ‘inspired’ that would not have been present to the apostolic authors?” How much of the meaning of the word comes from 1800 years of canon?
Oh yes, Paul, not Peter (or Mary), thanks!
“What God says directly through His prophets are His words. The rest is (can I even say it?) commentary.”
Quite true…and very dangerous to established Christianity. And we wonder why there are so many denominations? Men discovered and put together the Canon. Jesus did not hand us a New Testament before He rose and say “Here guys live by this book”. How could the very early Church do such amazing things without a complete NT? How did the Chinese during Hudsoin Taylors ministry in that country live and receive the Life without a bible in their specific dialect? Most of them could not read anyway.
If we will come to the Father in humility, dependence and complete obedience, He will draw people, open eyes., make a way where there is none, and use us in the same way He used the early Church and others through history. I wonder if we will ever see that kind of pure humility again?
On the Day of His return a lot of people will get to experience real humility.
Seriously? The word was made flesh. What was the word and who did it come from?
All that He said and did was directly from the Father. It doesn’t get any more “God direct” or authoritative then that. And He taught the same to His disciples. In fact He even taught them Himself through His very own Spirit.
To diminish the word of Yeshua or those whom He taught, or imply that it’s anything less than the words directly from the Father, makes no sense to me at all.
Commentary? Really? From YHVH that was among us?
I agree, but that is my point. Yeshua spoke as a prophet from YHVH, and his unique role as Messiah and future King of the earth marks his words as directly from YHVH, just as the words of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Moses, and even more important since He is the Messiah.
But Jude? Paul’s letter to Philemon? The Proverbs (some borrowed from Egyptian religious writings)? Song of Songs? Inspired, sure! Sacred, yes, as endorsed by the believing community (but notice the debate over Song), but “the words of God,” no, I don’t think so. In fact the sacred text doesn’t even claim this. Song is supposedly the “words of Solomon” but even that is unlikely. My point is that all of these words may be “inspired” by God but only a very few of them claim to actually be God’s words, and we should notice the difference and be careful about it.
I take Yeshua’s words to be equal (at least, if not more so) to Moses and Moses revealed YHVH’s words to us. In no way are Yeshua’s words diminished by noticing that Paul does not claim to speak the words of YHVH as a prophet, although he certainly cites them. Paul claims to give rabbinic binding decisions for the community based on the WORDS OF THE PROPHETS, but that isn’t the same, is it?
Well Peter seemed to put Paul’s words on the same par as the rest of Scripture so, I think I’m on safe ground to do the same. And yes I most definitely place the words and letters of those whom he personally taught and shared those teachings with, on the same level as they did.
However, when we start departing from what’s been established, then we start getting into scary and shaky ground.
Agreed again, as long as we both recognize that CANON is not the same as INSPIRED or SACRED. If you mean that we can’t depart from CANON, then the history of the Protestant Church puts a big blemish on that idea. And if CANON means what Judaism means, then all Christianity is blemished. So choose your poison. CANON is a construction of men who wanted certainty of text. It is not the same as the words people lived by in community.
Agreed. Neither do I think the previous statement given by Peter concerning Paul is Peter placing Paul’s writing on the “same par” as God’s words.
While I don’t agree with all Todd Bennett’s work. He does a pretty good job at showing this isn’t the case in his book “The Scriptures”.
Mark – If we decided not to depart from what has been “established”, I suspect that this website would not exist, or at least most of us would not be conversing here.
This discussion is similar to that of the “trinity”. It is all centered around words that have been given certain meanings by men, which are then accepted over time and ingrained into us, and then we have difficulty coming off those definitions. You write that Peter puts Paul’s words on par with the rest of Scripture. Of course, this means that we all must agree on what comprises “Scripture”. Then we must agree on whether or not some parts of Scripture should be given greater weight than others (which is what I read Skip to be stating), and then we have to agree that Peter has inherent authority to make this pronouncement, and decide whether Peter is placing Paul’s words on the same level as the words of YHVH and Yeshua. And it goes on and on ….
I don’t find it necessary to struggle with whether or not the 66 books we have is what God intended for us. I know that they are. I don’t wonder if there’s “other” books outside of them, as far as what’s Scripture and what isn’t, because there isn’t. That need comes from the desire to want to know or think there’s “deeper” meanings, at least that’s my opinion. I accept His ability to keep His words, and those of whom He has chosen, before His people. I don’t automatically reject something just because I feel a need to leave the paradigm that God has placed me in and at.
I look at the Scriptures we’ve been given as the measuring stick, the straight line that everything else has to be held up too. Some people think that the 66 books we have was something that was decreed by a counsel of Roman Catholics in the 3-400’s. And that’s completely untrue.
And one thing I learned the hard way “not” to do, is start putting credibility in all these “other” books. Many of which have absolutely been proven to be fakes. I trust the Creator of heaven and earth and I trust the 66 books He’s given us to know Him, Yeshua our Redeemer and Salvation and to have everything needed to walk out this life with and into the next.
Shabbat Shalom
Mark wrote..”I know that”….This begs the question: “and you KNOW this how?”
Mark, I want to thank you for your three posts on this topic of the Canon. I concur with what you have said.
I will add a few comments.
I too am confident about those 66 Books being what God wanted us to have as His Instruction Corpus to inform us of His Plan of Salvation for humanity and how we can get into His Kingdom. Of course the Bible also edifies us, corrects us and gives us hope and faith and love that an all powerful being in in charge of it all!!
My faith in the Bible is based on my trust in the Sovereignty of God over His creation. With God there are no accidents, no errors. Humans do make errors but the Dead Sea Scrolls show that as far as the Tanak goes we have a very credible body of work. With regard to the NT we have the advantage of many ancient copies spread widely around the world making tampering in a credible way extremely difficult I have every reason that His Word is crucially important to Him and so what we have in the 66 Books has to be what He wants for His children to learn righteousness. I also find the fact that Gematria works very well in both Hebrew and Greek languages to be most reassuring. And let’s not forget that the Book is also a crucial Legal work – it is the Law Book that is used to judge men in the heavenly court of law. (Daniel 7:10) We notice how picky judges, attorneys, and politicians are about their legal code and the authority their law books hold in the courts of this world. How much more would our heavenly Judge be precise in His Book of Law in His Judgments. And He knows that the accuser of the brethren is watching His every move!
I have no problem with references to a Book of Enoch or and other work outside the 66. I confess that I like the Book of Jasher a lot for the background info it provides on the goings on in Genesis. Very helpful but to me not on a par with the 66.
Shalom
Thank you John. And I had no doubt that you held the 66 books in authority.
The only thing I would like to add to what your saying, because others should know and research it for themselves, the book of Jasher has been absolutely proven to be a fake. That’s not hard to do some research on and find that to be the case. I too read it and really thought it filled in some gaps that we have in Scripture but, lo and behold, it’s a forgery a fake. And that’s some of my issue with all these “other” books. And my stance, which is, that if God wanted us to place credibility and trust in those books, then He darn sure would have them with the other 66.
I mean if someone wants to read them just for giggles, then great, I personally just don’t have time to waste on them but, we can’t be saying they’re legit, if we don’t have proof that they are and have stood the test of time. Not just because they read good or sound good.
The writers of the Apostolic texts went out with the authority given directly from Yeshua, that makes what they write, in my opinion, to be on the same level of authority and relevance as any of the Prophets or writings of the Tanach as well. Their authority, since given directly from thee Messiah Himself, the one and only natural Son of the living God, carries no less weight and should most definitely be thought of as Scripture.
One of the many reasons I see so many falling from their trust and belief in Yeshua as “thee Messiah”, is because they’ve allowed the validity and authority of the Apostolic text to be discredited and diminished. Even though the actual evidence for it’s validity is far far greater then that of even the Tanach. And no I’m not saying the Tanach is untrustworthy. I’m just stating the facts.
Thanks again John, I always appreciate and respect your comments.
Hi Mark,
I appreciate the reply!
Thanks for update on Jasher. Quiet honestly, I have spent very little time in the apocryphal book arena as I have always thought my plate is full enough trying to get a handle on what we know to be legit. But then several years ago a friend brought Jasher to my attention for some interesting background info on Nimrod and Esau. It certainly was an interesting read but I never gave much weight to Jasher. Thanks for the info on its fake status – just goes to show that we are on the right track by sticking with those 66 books!
Has anyone thought about how eerily synchronized the material in this Book is, from 40-odd different authors spanning over a thousand years? Is there any other book out there compositely written, nay, even two separate books out there by just two authors that can agree so completely, and complement each other so deeply, and can DEEPEN each other’s meaning so much, as this Book? And don’t give me that the Canon committee only chose books that already did that! There is a reason that we can find these wonders only in this one Book, and that reason has to come from an intimately involved Entity from beyond this world. This Book is a gift for us from beyond us, and I receive it as such. I also don’t try to spend a lot of time looking at its teeth to decide how exactly I am going to receive it, either, because my mama taught me that if it is a gift horse, well. I am pretty sure this Book is not something we humans did for ourselves!
I mean the NT has over 25,000 different manuscripts, and I don’t believe that any of them match up with each other. I’m not in the boat that just something is canonized then it makes it Holy. If you do that then you have to give Muslims the same respect. Have too. Just something is canonized to me doesn’t mean it’s now inspired. Hopefully it’s inspired but it’s canonized.
All I know that is the giving of the Torah, that is something unique. Never in history of man ever again has there been a time where God has intervened and millions of people had all heard Him speak. Never. Check out, “Rational Approach To Divine Origin of Judaism” its pretty amazing. Every other religion including our Christianity really can be disapprove because the story isn’t unique (Son of a God came down etc etc) hence why it’s so easy to counterfeit. Torah is the only thing that has a check on it in two ways:
1) Never has happened ever again in human history
2)In the Hebrew text of the book of Genesis, if you take the first (“T”), then count 49 letters, the next letter (the 50th) is (“O”); the next 50th is (“R”); and then the next 50th is (“H”). In other words, after the first “T”, in 50 letter increments, we find the letters spelling “Torah.” In the book of Exodus, we encounter the same result. What a coincidence! In the fourth book of the Torah, the book of Numbers, we discover this 49 letter interval works with “HROT,” that is, TORH backwards. A similar 49 letter interval also appears in the fifth book the Torah, the book of Deuteronomy. However, in the book of Deuteronomy the interval starts in the fifth verse instead of the first. Why the fifth verse? According to the Talmud the book of Deuteronomy doesn’t begin until the fifth verse where it states “On the other side of the Jordan, in the land of Moab, Moses undertook to expound the Torah. ” In the middle book, the book of Leviticus, it doesn’t seem to work either way. But it does work for YHWH, the sacred name of God
To recap.
Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy
TORH TORH YHWH HROT HROT
It’s like He made His signature on it. Anything else just because it’s in the canon doesn’t really hold a ton of weight for me anymore.
My only check is does it add or take away from Torah. If it doesn’t I’m all ears.
OK, some minor corrections. Last count there were more than 15,000 FRAGMENTS, not manuscripts, for the NT. And many of them (most, in fact) actually do agree in most of the details. There are, of course, many alternative spellings and etc.
Second, remember the differences between “inspired,” “sacred” (which I think you mean by “holy”) and “canonized.” Canon is the LAST step in the process and simply reflects an ALREADY EXISTING community of followers of a “sacred” text. So Islam has a canon (although their understanding of its authority is VERY different) and so do other religions. Arguments about canonization based on canonized texts are fruitless. The real issue is WHAT community believes WHAT texts are sacred.
This is where I was pulling the manuscripts from could just be faulty info (just so you don’t think I was pulling it out of the air)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/11/25000-new-testament-manuscripts-big-deal/
I think the author plays fast and loose with “manuscripts.” There are very few of these in the early centuries. But there are a lot of fragments. See F F Bruce’s classic treatment of this issue.
Trying to explain this concept to others is like peeing your pants, you might get some initial relief from it, but the result is more often then not just an uncomfortable freezing experience.
Or maybe that’s just what happens in my world.
Ya pretty much sums it up.
If I have this correct the guys who made the New Covenant I think were pagans who converted to Christianity. So I think the Old Covenant is more reliable for truth and especially the law given to Moshe. I heard one professor say that in Mathew the scripture about divorce being “ok” if it is of a cheating spouse is a parachute clause that a Catholic bishop put into Mathew. I think the New Covenant has much more of man tampering with it to fit his ideals of the time.
I’ll be 100% honest. I have kinda put the N.T on the back burner for a bit because I realized how illiterate I was with the O.T. I find it impossible to understand the N.T without substantial error until the O.T is grasped at least to a working knowledge. And now the ball has been dropped on me that I need to read Enoch and other books outside of it to see how their ideas were really shaped – it never ends. I see Yeshua in the O.T, all these things that lead and point to him – without a doubt the more I learn the more I am convinced he is Messiah ben Yosef BUT it could honestly be another 3 years before I actually get around to the N.T. Kinda discouraging.
Hey Derek ~ I, too, have returned to the Tanakh, realizing I need to start at the beginning, and learn about YHVH, His people, what He communicated to them, and as much as possible, grasp in context how things unfolded. Skip’s teachings are a tremendous help. I am reading, and trying to follow Torah. It gives me great joy. I’m attempting to study the O.T. for itself, without the Christian and Messianic overlays. It’s difficult. I am reading other sources as well, such as the Book of Enoch, Macabees I&II, Book of Jasher, rabbi teachings, and many others.
At some point, I will read the NT again, especially to try and discern what Yeshua conveyed. I wish we knew precisely, rather than what “they” say he said.
At present, I have not found Yeshua as Mashiach. Not yet. (I know that might appall some people on this site). I am open though, but it must come from YHVH, and not in the context of what I was taught and wholeheartedly embraced for nearly 60 years in the Christian church. There is a part of me that wants to make Yeshua fit because it would be so much easier. But, I can’t.
Because of my paradigm shift, I also see Jewish people of our day much differently now. I don’t just love the “concept or idea” of supporting Jews and Israel, which was strongly emphasized in the church. I no longer delude myself into thinking I’m embracing Jews by just donating to Christian/Jewish organizations. Truth is, I never experienced relating with Jews in all my many active years in the church, except for converts. Today, I am embarrassed of some things Christians assume about Jews and their beliefs, and it’s insulting. I’m discovering there are Jews who deeply love YHVH, honor Him, praise Him, thank Him, serve Him, study His words, and know Him as their Savior and Redeemer. It’s not just about traditions for them, and they don’t follow Torah so they can earn a relationship with their Creator. They have a relationship with Him already. I was never taught these things about Jews of today, only in a historic context.
Thanks for letting me piggy-back on your post with some thoughts about my journey back to the OT. I read and sincerely appreciate your posts Derek.
Shabbat Shalom……………..Marci
Marci, Honest and brave are your words. Fear not, while some newbees on this site may not fathom your uncertainty you have more than a few on this site who do. Yah does. May He reward you in your search for truth. Remember Yeshua claimed to be truth – the living Torah. He may not be as He has been “packaged” by the Church for these many centuries, but He will be the One Beloved, sent by the Father and our Redemer Kinsman and that will slake your thirst and satiate your soul. Happy hunting. Shalom, Michael
I think it takes boldness to question. I’m glad that you are. For sure, I think it’s the most important thing to read and learn Torah “as is” and love it for what it is, Gods instructions. Such and awesome God to tell us what He expects! Most of the teachers I listen to outside of Skip are Rabbi’s because I feel that even Messianic carry on this push towards bending scripture to fit the mold. At least the Rabbi’s I listen to they state Talmudic stuff when they are talking about it, Christians/Messiancs can have the tendency to blindly quote doctrine.
A thought that has crossed my mind more then once. It goes off of Ramban’s theory of the golden calf. He says that Israel wasn’t trying to replace God but rather Mose, that’s why when they see Moses they drop it. Not enough room to explain it but a very interesting debate between him and Rashi that I would recommend reading (just for fun). It brings another light to it but where I was going with it is, it’s made me curious if we’ve done that with Jesus (Yeshua). Have we made Jesus the Golden calf? It doesn’t even take us replacing God to get him pretty upset, if we have what can we except His reaction to be?
From my studying it’s been the same thing with Jews. Feel exactly the same. It’s made me want to convert to it honestly. Especially when you don’t believe in the trinity it makes it even worse. Because then there is this bigger division between you and Christians. But then I remember that there is no Hebrew word for, “religion’, then I just realize I just want to belong. I really do, it gets lonely sometimes.
I would be lying if I could answer the question, “How does it all fit together”. I too don’t get it really with Yeshua, oddly enough though I can see him in the feast days – it’s all about the feast days (not trying to push my beliefs on you, just stating where I see Yeshua). But even the cross moment, it shows who controls life and death (God does), going off of Skips book, “Cross word puzzles” and not directly atonement. Well didn’t we already know that though? We had Passover with the killing of the first born (He showed it then), then we had the bronze serpent in Numbers (He showed it then), wasn’t the point proven? I don’t get ‘why’ we needed it then without bringing doctrine into the mix….I mean it was the ‘fulfillment’ of Passover, Unleavened bread and first fruits. But you have to ask the question, “So what?” and I don’t know why that matters…not trying to be offensive to anyone but I really don’t get WHY that is such a big deal. Or why Yeshua becomes the center of discussion because it turns into Golden Calf in some odd way EVEN its that he’s just our mediator (going off of Ramban) and not making Yeshua into God.
At least we are in the same boat pretty much, over whelmed with how much we thought we knew but really don’t and honest enough to say, “I need to read that over again, and not jump to conclusions”. Have a great Shabbat Marci – He took us out of Egypt!
I guess full circle. It gets overwhelming to know that the majority first followers of Yeshua ate, studied, lived Torah/ all these writings 24/6 (heyooo) and had done it for 15 years at least. And then you have measly little Derek that has the working knowledge equivalent to a 3 year old back then trying to keep up with the pack. Just a lot to learn; it’s exciting forming a relationship with Him but also at times can be very overwhelming. But the more I learn and form these connecting points with Him, the more addicted I become to keep going.
One of the better addictions to have.
Well said, Derek and Marci! I totally relate — for about 3 years, I could not read the NT. It was so hard to read the apostolic writings without the overlay of traditional church thinking. I still struggle to see the other side of the picture with consistency, the picture keeps flicking back to the “revised standard” way of thinking. But I do find encouragement here, that others are engaged in the same exercise. Thanks to both of you for sharing.
I don’t know if this will help anyone but I will try. I have five different Tanakhs. By nature I am a simple man and for me the best one I found is the Etz Hayiim Torah and Commentary. per page in the right column is the Hebrew. Then to the left is the English. Below those columns per scripture is a pishot (a plain truth understanding of each verse). Below that is a section drash (famous sages from all eras and their commentary on certain verses that stick out more. Below that there is the last section called Halakhah (Jewish Law) so anyone can understand the Jew’s Law and the point of view from the rabbis as they know G-d is telling them. I’m no scholar but someone who seeks truth and this Tanakh has gotten me the farthest and fastest to learning. I have shared it with a couple of Christians and they bought one after me showing them mine and how easy it is to learn.
If anyone cares to know what I think is helpful for learning the New Covenant I use the Jewish N.T. Commentary by David H. Stern. I don’t know what theological pitfalls might be in it but I do know it has greatly helped me share Jewishly better what is going on on many of the texts. I think it helps us all see that the New Covanant is really the Old Covenant recycled with more data added. As I was taught by a great professor in Divinity School, “The New Testament is a commentary of the Old Testament.”
Dearest Derek, Michael, Suzanne, Yochanan, and others ~
I’m greatly encouraged by your words and thank you for taking the time to comment, and cheer me on. I confess, I recently considered leaving this site because it was contributing to an even more pronounced sense of “not being on the same page”, with anyone, especially when I read terms such as ‘believer’ and wonder if that excludes me. (I too want to belong to a community, and one that includes Jews). In any event, I resisted the urge to depart, and have been hanging in, reading each day.
I purchased, and have read ‘Cross Word Puzzles’. Very enlightening. Yochanan, you read my mind. I have been trying to find a version of the Tanakh that is closest to giving Hebrew explanations and meaning, in an English translation. Thank you kindly for the recommendation. I will be purchasing the Etz Hayiim Torah and Commentary.
Derek, I wish I’d been taught about the feasts, without an overloaded Messianic interpretation. Only in the past couple of years have I been celebrating each of feast without Christian Messianic emphasis. I cry with joy now, every time, because it is so beautiful and I’m so aware of G-d. I wonder what it would be like to have learned about them for what they were/are.
I trust and have confidence that YHVH will show me in peace, what He wants to show me, including about Yeshua, when it’s time. YHVH knows I don’t want any idols, a golden calf, a messiah, any religious text, any resistance or stubborness on my part, or anything that is exalted above Him.
Thank you all again. This Shabbat has been deeply enriched because of you.
Shabbat Shalom, at least for those on the West Coast, like me, who are still set apart, and Shavua Tov to those whose Sabbath has ended.
Marci
Of course! I also I have the stone edition. I like that one a lot. I hear you with the whole feast days stuff and people just pounding it on you. Then there is the whole story about the archer. Some guy is walking in the woods and keeps seeing all of these bulls-eye hits with an arrow on all these trees. Finally catches up to the archer and ask, “How do you have such perfect aim?!” which he replies, “It’s easy, you shoot an arrow randomly it hits a tree, then you draw a circle around it”. I’ve often wondered if coming to Yeshua as the Messiah sometimes is like that. You ‘believe’ or, ‘know’ in your heart, so when you see the text you throw Yeshua in there and say, “LOOK ITS THERE!!!!”. Who knows right? But I think that is why everyone is here on this site, we’re looking for answers together and in the metaphorical ‘pit’ together hashing it out.
The thing to keep in mind is this Marci. 1st Century believers that held to the belief that Yeshua was the Messiah and Jews that did not, how did their walk look different? It really didn’t… I mean for 80 years there wasn’t even something that they could point to in writing other then OT.
Also they would/could argue all day but when Shabbat came around guess what – they’re singing in the streets breaking bread with their neighbor. The differences got put aside and they would hold hands on the things that REALLY mattered – the walk, the being set apart, the Shalom bayit, His calendar, the tangible things that ignites those sparks of Holiness etc. So try not to be too discouraged. It’s sometimes where I feel the most conflicted because my walk looks very Jewish to most, but my modern Christians brothers/sisters still have a very special place in my heart and being friends with a good number of them I know that they are doing the best with what is revealed to them. Also they put me to shame with their active efforts with feeding the poor, taking care of the widows etc.
I can only speak for myself but it’s a weird place to be in. Easier to say I’m Jewish (because I technically kinda am, my dad is a Levite) and I do ‘Jewish’ looking things but not really a Jew and they have their own things to work out too…and not really ‘Christian’ well because of long list of reasons as well – but love both of them! Then it normally just defaults to if someone ask me “what are you?” my response is something like, “I just study the Bible and do the best I can with what I know…by the way I need this day off in a month it’s Passover…high sabbath….by the way can’t stay late this Friday..shabbat -sorry.” You know? very weird place. Especially when you look at a lot of Messianic or Hebrew Christians and think, “Ya….that’s still pretty greek” – now we have entered a new level of out there. When Messianic are looking at you funny – it’s a whole new zone you have entered…
Stick around Marci, I’m in the same boat or close enough and I’m sure there are a lot of people reading these exchanges nodding their head in agreement. It’s fun to hash things out. We don’t need to agree on much other then we’re trying to follow Him – working things out and His instructions are still valid. How we do the instructions? Well that’s what we’re here for, helping shed light were we can for each other so the learning curve isn’t as bad for others (or myself)
I am with you brother.
Derek, I saw a great avatar on fb (i’m not on fb anymore) it said: “I am Hebrew, i have crossed over from man made traditions and lies into Biblical Truth…I modified it to say “I am Hebrew, i have crossed over from man made traditions and lies into Torah”.
Pretty much sums it up for me.
Pretty much sums it for me hahah. With Torah and pretty much Tanakh in general I’ve never felt this need for “Theological Gymnastics”. I figure with N.T I’m either too dense, too ignorant of Tanakh (or combination of the two), or there are some serious add on’s making it questionable. But in the past when I’ve read it (and why I needed to step away a little bit to educate myself), there seemed to be this frequent ‘sesame street’ song would keep on playing, “One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn’t belong” and I would be reading it just shaking my head saying, “What in the world is going on here?”. Goes back to it proboly really does make sense, I just have the education of Tanakh similar to a three year old – it’s enough to be dangerous but by no means someone that knows what they are talking about without a question mark for the punctuation in most cases.
Truthfully been studying it ‘religiously’ (no pun intended) for about three years and the more I know the more questions I get (im in my late 20’s – so I don’t have a lot to pull from). Once I began my studies it put an end to the question ‘does He exists?’ or ‘is the Tanakh legit’, the more I learn the more I can easily set that aside. There is one Creator and His people is Israel. Which says a lot because I was a Catholic then an atheist then a Buddhist and was not the best of person in between – so it’s not like people coming out of Christianity and that’s all they knew. I come from this very odd Egypt.
But my question has been how/why does the N.T fit in? (not looking for an answer from anyone either – so don’t feel pressure to answer it) Like I said, I’m not saying it doesn’t by any means. Skip does a great job at showing how it does. But if at the end it’s Mishnah – why do I have this really strong attachment to it? I frankly don’t get it myself. Then we say these catch phrases that I’m not sure we really know what they mean, ‘Well it’s the word made flesh”, “It’s the the ____”, frankly I’m just tired of being a patriot. If I can’t explain it I don’t know it that well – and that’s fine but I’ll hold off on just repeating things I’ve heard which puts you in an odd place. Then there are things that just make no sense what so ever. Like how the the antichrist and the beast are going to be thrown in a pit for x amount of time. Makes no sense,it paints this picture of duality that just isn’t existent in Tanakh and that just makes you question all sorts of things.
I find peace in Torah. I rarely find/make the time to venture too much out of it in my weekly studies (Torah portion cycle). I figure/hope that He at least approves of me asking questions, the questions have never made me stop acting. What I know is truth, I do the best I can to follow through with it – and there is a lot of truth that I’ve come to know. The things that are puzzling, well I figure that He’s revealed this much to me in His timing and I’m sure what I’m suppose to know He’ll show me as long as I keep seeking His face – all in His timing though. But at the end it puts you in a very unusual spot (having to trust Him) and really try to focus on the ‘things that matter’ because if that’s all you got at the end of the day you just have to hold onto those and not let go. Go all Jacob on Him, dig in and get ready for a fight/wrestle.
This Purim actually marks my 3 year birthday lol. I look back at three years ago and it’s hilarious to me. I have a notebook I still keep of questions that come to me and I look back on the ones that I wrote back then – such hang ups and brain teasers now not so much. I figure it’s going to be the same in another three years.
Imagine what it will look like in 30
That’s the truth!
Re: I’m just tired of being a patriot. That has GOT to be a auto correct at it’s finest! I’m thinking you meant “I’m just tired of being a parrot”?
I get it, and can relate to most of your post. It’s nuts, isn’t it?
What if the antichrist and the beast are the same entity? heh. wrap your brain about THAT concept! or not.
Shalom!
Hahaha, I read it over after i posted it and just shook my head *technology*. So true.
I just want to say I always really enjoy your comments, Derek. I can almost always identify with your perspective and the way you articulate things resonates with me. I enjoy your contribution here. 🙂
Thanks Alicia. I love Skips blog, and the dialogs that happen on it with everyone. I read everyone’s comments every day. It’s like Skip throws a catalyst to a fire and boom some very interesting dialog going on.
I’m never quite sure though how on point I am with stuff though… I only know what I know.
I have a small group (just 5 of us) that I meet up with on Shabbats. We’re all in our 20s/30s. None of us have come from remotely close backgrounds – extremely different backgrounds. So questions that come up aren’t your run of the mill questions, which can be a good thing but also frustrating because it leaves you with questions you’ve never heard before yourself.
One thing that I’ve seen is, some questions lead to something very incite, others not so much. It’s all about asking, “the right question”. Internal questions vs External questions. The internal questions that’s where the incite comes. Clearly – still working on it and clearly have a ton of external questions that I know people are reading and saying to themselves, “Really doesn’t matter dude, you can drop it at any point”.
I just hope by any of my comments that either somehow someone thinks, “Oh that’s a good question/comment” or someone says, “Already worked through that, you’re quite frankly very wrong – here is the fact”. Either way it’s a win. And after going through so many different points of view in the past, I really don’t mind my beliefs being challenged.
I appreciate your compliment Alicia. I read you comments and I enjoy them too!
I enjoy the perspective of anyone who is genuinely thinking, regardless of whether or not I even agree with them. I don’t know that I ever agree with anyone 100%. I’m just contrary like that. 😉 I think we all have something to teach each other and I try to look for that. I enjoy talking with and listening to those who are not afraid to turn something over in their mind and think about it without being threatened by the way it looks from different angles. That’s why I love Skip’s blog too. It’s his way of wording things and the insight and knowledge he brings to the table, but also the unique combination of minds and hearts that contribute to the subsequent discussions. I don’t really have community yet, so this is where I come to geek out on the Bible a bit. I don’t get to comment as much as I would like, but I enjoy reading even when I can’t contribute.
Well this is a good community to be in then! “Geek out on the Bible” <— my thoughts exactly hahah. People are, 'waking up' all over the place. If you check out, "the regathering .com" you might be surprised who is in your area. All I know is that I checked the map on there when i first came into this (this is when I had a crisis moment and e-mailed skip saying, "am I Jewish now…?!") and saw NO ONE was near me on the map. My thoughts were, 'forever alone…". Checked this past year and I was pretty surprised with how many were around me. Who knows? I live in mini Babylon aka outside of DC so to have religious people in general is kinda a surprise let alone people that have a similar belief system. But I know places in MO are just boomin and who knows were you're at it could be someone right down the street and you wouldn't even know.
And agreed on the whole we all learn from each other for sure. Especially here, I find that people that post on this site are super smart and really humble which is always a good combination – especially for someone who is just learning (ie me)
Chazak, chazak v’nitchazek! Be strong, be strong and may we be strengthened!
Marci…my best to you.:) You are not alone. For me it is not about being a Jew or a gentile. To G-d it doesn’t matter because he loves us all the same. He just has different roles for some of us according to His good plan and purpose. To me it is about being Biblical and in a loving community. Currently I have a 19 year old girl I am giving a Bible study and from time to time teach over pulpits. There are other Christians I meet with form time to time that have left their Churches and have given up on the system. Interesting they start discovering the roots of some of the stuff they learn is false. I constantly am invited to visit and share what I know with many of this type of Christians. One family started teaching their kids Hebrew, started eating Kosher as much as they can, and only read Christian Hebraic roots books. So many of us our on this journey but tucked away from others who we wish were walking towards G-d like us.
I think we as people get a bit hung up on the Jews and being Jewish. I think the point is if we are gentiles we are good enough for G-d because that is what he created us to be and if we are Jews we don’t need to change and become gentiles either.G-d knows how to create us all to be a blessing for each other. I think that is why we are all here from our different walks of life but walking together on this same path here.
To me I come here because Skip is the most amazing Christian professor I sat under and I get to grow the most with his back breaking research that I am not capable of understanding many of the matters he knows. This community keeps my soul flourished to see I can make it while I stand in the crossroads of Judaism and Christianity. I will never be orthodox Jew and I will never be a Christian. To be somewhere in the middle is good enough for me. After all that is what G-d decided and not me with life events to do this in my life.
We are all special and that is why G-d has us here to hear truth and FEEL COMFORT IN OUR UNIQUENESS of who we are now and where we are going. Thank you G-d for setting others before me who pave the path so I can walk on THE PATH WITH OTHERS OF LIKE PASSION and not fumble in the wilderness alone any longer. Yes the path is long and a bit narrow at some junctures for some of us but G-d does get us through and we do arrive together.
Words of wisdom spoken for sure.
This is where I was pulling the manuscripts from could just be faulty info (just so you don’t think I was pulling it out of the air)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/11/25000-new-testament-manuscripts-big-deal/
Derek, you have a wonderful journey ahead of you. I envy you. It took me 70 years just to seriously begin my quest of discovery and this is where it led me and I am so grateful to the whole community that contributes to the brilliant words of wisdom that Skip so delightfully kick starts each day.
Somehow, if you look for it, it will find you but you must make the effort and pay the price of discovery. As Heschel writes, is man in search of God or is God in search of man? I was, I am, I will be, forever.
I hope the rest of your group enjoys Skip’s Word as much as you do. I too am a recovering Catholic and checked out all “the competition” before my arrival here. I wish I had had a community like yours decades ago but now I have found one and I am at peace. Shalom.
Thanks George! Ya it’s pretty wild for sure. I know that in comparison to the general market of people ‘into this’ I’m fairly young. But it’s funny, because then I think about children raised in this and think, ‘wow I’m envious’! haha.
Ya the small group that I’m a part of has really been a blessing. Bigger blessing is that my girlfriend at the time and now fiancé came to this exactly at the same time that I did when dating. And the odd thing is that we found it while I wouldn’t consider either one of us ‘God focused’. Things like that are just a testimony that a lot of what He does, doesn’t make any sense at the time but when you look back you’re like, “His hand was so on this”. So ya, our group frequents this blog quite often. Skips 30 day course is the one that was the paradigm shifter and he is the teacher that we end up saying, “Well Skip said ____” and all of us nod our head because we know he’s got a good batting record. “Well what did Skip say?”
I’m glad that your at peace George and I pray for peace and Shalom in your home!
Knowing the Tanakh is very fundamental to our walk, yet, only digging into/from the Hebrew texts and not from the translated versions where there are translations according to man’s comprehension and agendas. :- (
I do find reading the NT perplexing at times, not knowing the context and cultures of those times when they were written, but with the understanding of Hebraic idioms and metaphors, and mindsets in them, reading NT is easier.
It means we learn to take the meat and discard the bones in all the commentaries, books, references, etc…Shalom!