In the Midst
If two sit together and words of the Law are spoken between them, the Divine Presence rests between them. Pirke Avot 3:2
Divine Presence – Does this passage from the works of the Jewish sages sound familiar? It should. Yeshua uses the same idea when he speaks about two or three gathered together. Did you realize that the idea Yeshua uses was first articulated by Jewish sages years before he was born? Did you know that the sages located the Divine Presence in connection with the “Law”? Don’t you think that those who first heard Yeshua speak about his presence would have recalled Pirke Avot? Perhaps, “where two or three are gathered” now takes on a different meaning. Gather for what? Discussion of Torah. Experiencing what? The presence of the Messiah who is the authorized ruler and representative of YHVH.
This reference to the works of the sages should remind us that all of the teachings of Yeshua have contextual background. He did not teach in a vacuum. Nor did he teach timeless truths disconnected from the experiences of his own audience. He taught in the context of first century Jewish thinking. If we are to understand what he taught, we must avail ourselves of this same context. Anything else strips his lessons from their original meaning. That does not mean we can’t apply what he taught to our circumstances. It just means that the application is not the original meaning. Confusing the original meaning with the contemporary application causes all kinds of problems, like insisting that women cover their heads or that speaking in tongues is the second stage of salvation or that divorce for any reason except adultery is unacceptable.
What does this mean for us? It means that we must always be aware that we are not the original audience. We must work to recapture what that audience knew, what that audience assumed, what that audience experienced before we can confidently apply Yeshua’s teaching (or Paul or Peter or any of the others). “True to the original” means knowing what it meant in the first century.
Once we realize this, then we have to rethink several crucial concepts. For example, what did the cross mean to Jews in the first century? It should be fairly obvious that it did not mean a place of atonement. For that matter, what did atonement mean to Jews who believed that Yeshua was the Messiah? What did the Law mean to these people and to the Romans who occupied Israel (the two different audiences have strikingly different views of Law)? What about tithing? What did that mean? What about authority? Did Paul actually suggest that believers were to put themselves under the authority of pagan leaders (as is often asserted)? So many concepts to investigate, but only after we come to grips with the fact that we are not the audience. We are the listeners two thousand years later and our thoughts are not his thoughts. Yes, simple faith is still an option. God is good. But informed faith will require some serious investigation.
Topical Index: Pirke Avot 3:2, divine presence, context, audience
When I look at it, the entire Hebrew economy, so to speak, revolved around the Tabernacle, with its services and rituals. In the wilderness, which was a ‘perfect’ picture, so to speak, of YHVH’s relations with His people, The Tabernacle, shrouded with the cloud of the Presence; the Shekinah, in the center of the camp, determined everything they knew. That Presence did not follow them wherever they gathered; they gathered wherever It was. The Shekinah was their protection from the killing sun and the dangerous darkness; it determined their movement and direction. The locus of the Shekinah Itself, however, was determined by the location of the Ark of the Covenant; it hovered over the Mercy Seat of that Ark, and the Mercy Seat covered the Law on those tables of stone. In a pocket beside that Ark was put the Writings, or the rest of the Torah, which was given to Moses by the angels. Wherever YHVH’s Law is to be found, there we will find Him. Beautiful. A coven convened by witches, then, will not have the Presence because they will not be “speaking of the Law”. “TO the Law and to the Testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Is. 8:20.
Skip,
Could the “two or three are gathered” be a reference to Duet 1:17 and maybe not Pirke Avot 3:2?
If so, could that not mean a conflict to your current paradigm about the deity of Yeshua?
Matt 18:18-20 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say[c] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” [Duet 1: 9 “And I spoke to you at that time, saying: ‘I alone am not able to bear you. 10 The Lord your God has multiplied you, and here you are today, as the stars of heaven in multitude. 11 May the Lord God of your fathers make you a thousand times more numerous than you are, and bless you as He has promised you! 12 How can I alone bear your problems and your burdens and your complaints? 13 Choose wise, understanding, and knowledgeable men from among your tribes, and I will make them heads over you.’ 14 And you answered me and said, ‘The thing which you have told us to do is good.’ 15 So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and knowledgeable men, and made them heads over you, leaders of thousands, leaders of hundreds, leaders of fifties, leaders of tens, and officers for your tribes.
16 “Then I commanded your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your brethren, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the stranger who is with him. 17 You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small as well as the great; you shall not be afraid in any man’s presence, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too hard for you, bring to me, and I will hear it.’ 18 And I commanded you at that time all the things which you should do.]
Now and Then
~ For where two or three are assembled in my Name, there am I in the midst of them ~ (Matthew 18.40)
~ Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age ~ (Matthew 28.20)
That Name?
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His Name is the Word of God. (Revelation 19.13)
~ My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.. ~ (1 John 2.2)
~ This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins ~ (1 John 4.10)
~ And we have seen and [will] testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world ~ (1 John 4.14)
~ But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our LORD Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. ~ (Galatians 6.15)
~ For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love ~ (Galatians 5.6)
Ephesians 2
You used to be dead because of your sins and acts of disobedience. You walked in the ways of the ‘olam hazeh and obeyed the Ruler of the Powers of the Air, who is still at work among the disobedient. Indeed, we all once lived this way — we followed the passions of our old nature and obeyed the wishes of our old nature and our own thoughts. In our natural condition we were headed for God’s wrath, just like everyone else.
~ But God is so rich in mercy and loves us with such intense love that, even when we were dead because of our acts of disobedience, He brought us to life along with the Messiah — it is by grace that you have been delivered. That is, God raised us up with the Messiah Yeshua and seated us with Him in Heaven, in order to exhibit in the ages to come how infinitely rich is His grace, how great is His kindness toward us who are united with the Messiah Yeshua. For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore — no one should boast. For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.
Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth — called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised — at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra’el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God’s promise. You were in this world without hope and without God.
~ But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. For He Himself is our shalom — He has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us by destroying in His own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with Himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake [the tslav] as a criminal and thus in Himself killing that enmity.
Also, when he came, He announced as Good News [the gospel] shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, [good] news that through Him we both have access in [and through] one Spirit to the Father.
So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people and members of God’s family. You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah Himself. In [blood-covenant] union with Him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with our LORD. Yes, in union with Him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!
~ the word of the Lord endures forever, and this is the word (the good news) that was proclaimed to you ~ 1 Peter 1.25)
So, what are you saying Carl? I read a bunch of verses pulled out of several books, but I’m at a loss as to your point. Do you have one?
If Abraham listened to you he might have lost his best friend-
Modern believers have a VERY difficult time with this thought…. that we are not the original audience. They will fight it tooth and nail because of the change it might mean. It always digresses to which translation are you using. sigh
Almost every time I learn something new (relating to scripture), it usually means I have a choice to make. Sometimes these come easily and sometimes not so much. I believe this to be what was meant about “those having ears to hear and eyes to see.” Part of that remains unspoken, a willingness to consider all things.
A mind closed to the possibilities of learning new things in an impregnable fortress!
I like what you said, Dawn. You wrote my own thoughts somewhat. People fight the newness of thought SO much that they have virtually no ears to hear anything else except what they’ve put in the box. I do understand it somewhat having lived in that box for so many years. I know the pat answers my theology taught me to respond with.
It’s not that I’ve given up trying to talk to people, it’s just I’m a little more attentive to someone that is truly and painfully searching for new insights. I’ve started listening more or harder or something. And, along with that, simply have been asking more questions of people instead of barking inflexible doctrine at them, a habit I exhibited for quite a few years.
Not only is it more peaceful in some ways (even though more opposing, it’s more of a challenge) it is quite entertaining to observe people’s responses to the varying pointed questions I’ve had the opportunity to ask. For the most part, the conversation either abruptly stops or people just walk away or move on or something to avoid the point of the question. Very, very, very rarely do I come across someone who actually ponders the question or two I pose and actually contemplates an opposing theological view. That occurrence is most always refreshing and invigorating.
That said, thanks to all on this blog that contribute so many great exchanges. This really does help me think and negotiate the journey toward insight and truth.
I’m so glad you brought out that point…I was starting to think I’m fading …or my testifying was just not filled with Holy Spirit impact to bring light in the dark.
I pray so much more now for any given person and wait for another opportunity again to share if paths cross..
Its imperative to prepare our hearts in prayer and the Word in order to give an answer in due season.
God knows that’s where the soldiers on the front lines have been.
Prayer….
You are greatly loved by your Father, but are you known by His Son the King?
Are you afraid of Jesus? I understand, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I encourage you, be brave, courageous, come beyond your reconstructed veil and be with the lover of your soul.
Skip, if you find Him and don’t like Him, you can still deny Him, at least you will have made an informed decision, either way, there will be no excuses, He has made a way for you, many have been at your side speaking into your heart the things of the mysteries of the kingdom, the kingdom you pretend to know of.
I pray for the surprise of your life, and the hand of the King to touch you soon!
I ask Him on your behalf to make Himself know to you, be ready, be waiting, He will come, He will reveal Himself and increase your desire to know and be known by Him alone.
Much Love and Peace,
Abigail
What are you saying, sharon? I’m not sure what you are implying.
Abigail why do you think Skip is not born again?
This is surprising. Yes, Abigail, why do you think that?
I prayed for God to surprise you, not me! What are you referring to “why do you think that?” Think what?
You do not know what I am saying, and you do not know what Carl is saying, Hmmm
I was not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand, that’s all, sharon. I am asking for clarification from you regarding your apparently pointed comments regarding Skip. I didn’t want to assume what I thought you meant. And Carl just quoted some verses. I read the Scriptures on a daily basis and my efforts are to understand what they are saying. Frankly, if all Skip did on this blog was quote some verses I doubt seriously I would be a long time reader like I am. It is all the verses themselves that I seek to understand. Believe me I read them a lot, but I still need prolonged and wide input to decipher what they really mean. I used to just take what the preacher and pastors told me from the pulpit, but over the past 7-8 years I’ve learned many of them didn’t really know what they were talking about and most just parroted what they were taught in doctrinal restrained seminaries, which I was a student of at one point in my life.
If someone came to me asking for meaning in the scriptures we study, should I just say go read Matthew Revelation, 1 John, Galatians, Ephesians and 1 Peter and all your questions will be answered? That method doesn’t help me much. Maybe I’m just not that smart that all the wisdom and knowledge just poofs in to my brain and heart. But I continue to dig and sort out all the intimates that are in the scriptures.
Regarding Carl, I really could’t discern what point he was making. So, I asked. Maybe he will take the time to explain it.
Hmmm. Maybe I’m just stupid?
Stupid like me, I suppose. QUESTIONS, not answers, are the way we learn.
You guys are fun to listen to, I love the honesty of seekers. I am like a silent partner, an angel investor, sometimes I whisper my heart because I have grown to love you all.
We love you, too, Abigail.
I like the application…ethical principles handed down…known by all and that would include Yeshua. One can only imagine the things that were discussed daily in the assembly in that time…and those who were the respected teachers of these principles. Hillel taught: “Be a disciple of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace”…Shammai taught: “Make the study of Torah your primary occupation… (1:10-15)” Although it may seem anachronistic …since The Chapters/Ethics of the Fathers was a part of Mishnah which was not written until the 3rd century CE. …still, I totally like cultural contextual app! “If I am only for myself, who am I? (1:14)” and “Say little and do much (1:15).” Hmmmm?
I don’t even know if Skip would say he is “born again”, so why would it matter what I think? Just for the record, I didn’t say he wasn’t born again.
Sandra, would you briefly explain what you mean by “born again”?
I found this very interesting about how the Rabbis view atonement. What do you think Skip? Any thoughts?
““Our Rabbis taught: It once happened that two priests were equal as they ran to mount the ramp and when one of them came first within four cubits of the altar, the other took a knife and thrust it into his heart…The father of the young man came and found him still in convulsions. He said: ‘May HE be an atonement for you. My son is still in convulsions and the knife has not become unclean.’ [His remark] comes to teach you that the cleanness of their vessels was of greater concern to them even than the shedding of blood. Thus is it also said: Moreover Manasseh shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to the other.” (Yoma 23a, Soncino Press Edition)
Also the story in Numbers 25:11-13
““Pinchas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, in that he was jealous with my jealousy among them, so that I didn’t consume the children of Israel in my jealousy. Therefore say, Behold, I give to him my covenant of peace, and it shall be to him, and to his seed after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was jealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.”
So atonement was not necessarily seen as something that HAD TO OCCUR on the Altar. Am I correct? I know I do not fully understand atonement yet. Can you elaborate?
It seems that your second blog entry is the answer to this strange story.
Besides the obvious with the commentary on the story about how the Rabbis viewed the ritual purity………..I found it interesting that atonement was provided by a MAN in the Numbers account and that is obviously the way the Rabbis thought as evidence in the first blog, “The father of the young man came and found him still in convulsions. He said: ‘May HE be an atonement for you.”
So my thoughts were, “Why does GOD have to be the one on the cross? AND why does it have to be about a SIN sacrifice. I think it follows nicely what you are teaching us on both of these topics! These two stories let us see into the thoughts of Moses and the early rabbis on how they view atonement.
For those interested here is R. David Hoffman’s comments on a very similar rabbinical story. Some great insight into the way the rabbis thought. Also goes with today TW- “The Way”, and again I saw their idea of atonement very interesting.
“The rabbis of the Talmud give further consideration to religious conflicts that may arise, which pit love of God against love of human beings. One of the most poignant treatments of this dilemma is a text in the Tractate of Yoma (23a). There the rabbis tell a story of two priests who were eager to serve God by removing the ashes from the altar in the temple. They were so passionate in their desire to serve God, even in this seemingly small act that they would race up the ramp of the altar in order to win this honor. One day one of the priests, in his passion to win the honor to serve God, took out his ritual slaughtering knife and thrust it into the chest of his fellow priest. Love of God became a force for horrible violence in the world. And yet the tragedy of this story does not end there. The father of the stabbed priest comes over to his dying son and cradles him. Can we even begin to imagine this father’s pain? His son lies bleeding before him, dying, stabbed by a man who acted in order to serve God! Yet the tragedy of the story intensifies. The father tells those around him that they should pull out the ritual slaughtering knife from his son’s chest before he dies so that the knife would not be rendered impure by a dead body. The father concerns himself with the purity of the knife while his son dies! The Talmud concludes: “This story comes to teach us that the purity of their vessels was more important to them than the spilling of human blood!” The rabbis declare that this story offers a picture of love transformed into pathology. The rabbis offer a scathing indictment of a religious society where the love of God privileges the love of human beings…: “If your understanding of the love of God privileges your love of other human beings—stop. You are tragically mishearing the will of God.”
Parasha Vayera, R’ David Hoffman, Jewish Theological Seminary [1] (From ladderofjacob.com)
Great slaughter on this planet has been in the name of god from the beginning. I always thought Bob Dylan’s song “With God On Our Side” said it best.