Thinking about the Messiah

 

“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit” (Luke 6:43 NASB).

One of the chief differences between Hebrew and Greek paradigms is the idea of certainty. In the Greek world, truth assumes commitment to some specific correct answer. We might not know what this final answer is at the moment, but the paradigm tells us that such an answer exists and eventually can be made clear to the rational mind.   This view is exemplified in Plato’s theory of forms, a theory that postulated a timeless, perfect world where the true essence of the corrupt, observable and changing experience actually resides. Plato’s timeless “forms” were independent of the manifested variety of human experience. They acted as universals, capturing the “real” existence of the object. For example, the concept “tree” is not about any particular tree but rather an eternal, timeless idea that informs us about what is the essence of all trees.

Hebrew takes a decidedly different view. Because Hebrew deals with life as it is observed, it is far less concerned with theories of universal, timeless truths. It does not posit a world where the “essence” of things resides. Rather, Hebrew views life in its diversity as the fundamental component of reality. All of the “blooming, buzzing confusion” is the real, not merely a shadow of some other “real” world. Therefore, it embraces paradox, even contradiction, as completely compatible with human experience. Hebrew is not committed to some supra-rational eternal single-answer solution. It thinks in terms of what appears to be the case now, not in terms of Plato’s ideals in some ex-temporal heavenly permanent unchanging existence. The implications are significant. Hebrew is eminently practical. “This is how we do things,” replaces the statement, “This is the way things really are.” So Hebrew is about cultural absorption rather than philosophical elucidation. When Gentiles encounter the God of Israel, they are asked to embrace a certain way of life, a way of life that leaves lots of things fairly loose because that’s the way life seems to be. Conversion is a process of adopting a “way of seeing things,” not a system of absolute truths. It is paradigm shift, not argument from evidence.

Greek thinking is primarily responsible for the development of systematic theology, an approach to the biblical text that attempts to derive “essence” from the accidents of historical, humanly conditioned events. Thus, systematic theology talks about the “essential” attributes of God, the principles of soteriology, the truths of eschatology, the foundations of morality. Jewish thought does not embrace this approach easily. Instead it seems concerned with “What do we do now?” kinds of questions, an approach that finds the divine in the ordinary ways of living and concerns itself with ethical questions in the present circumstances.

Think about your own real life experience. When did you make a plan that came to pass exactly as you planned it? When did you derive an answer to one of the big questions that has never changed over the course of your life? When did your life stop changing? Greek philosophy suggests that once we have determined the “real” answer to a big question, we can set that one aside as a fixed point and move on to the next nebulous concept. Hebrew sees life as constant flux where what we knew yesterday is more than likely to change today. That, by the way, does not mean we are floating on the sea of uncertainty. What it means is that we choose where to put anchors. We choose to place our confidence in the God of Israel and what He revealed through the prophets. We don’t withhold commitment because there are unanswered questions. There will always be unanswered questions. We go forward with what we have and we are not afraid to change things if we must. Our “certainty” is the choice to trust the working of YHVH, not a set of true, timeless propositions. God did things in real human history. We trust that what He did vouches for His willingness to do things again. Hebraic faith does not rest on creeds or doctrines. It rests on the God who acted in history.

All of this seems threatening to Western paradigms. We have absorbed the theory that truth must be fixed. When we encounter confusion and doubt in the world, we automatically believe that the problem is our understanding, not the actual complexity of the world itself. Most of the time, we actually ignore the complexity and contradictions of life in order to maintain our grip on this need for fixed answers. Certainty removes the panic of not-knowing in a world where not-knowing is viewed as rationally and morally inadequate. But if we step back from this presupposition, we might discover that the world is really far more complex and much more malleable than we imagined. We might discover that we are required to make choices without absolute evidence, that making a choice is really the task of being human. Most of us in the West know that we must choose, but rather than recognize the inherent ambiguity of choice, we strain to find absolute justification for our choices. Plato offered us a definition of truth that has become virtually a part of Western DNA. Truth is justified, rational belief. Unfortunately, this definition rules out most of the ways that we actually live in the world. Hebrew recognizes the logical and spiritual limitations of “justified, rational” in this view of truth. It moves toward “what works now,” and “how we have been instructed to do things,” rather than expecting our actions to conform to Plato’s definition. Hebrew is about deciding despite lack of evidence. For the West, this spiritual tension is uncomfortable. For the Semitic mind, it is simply what is.

If you adopt a Hebraic view of life, what this requires more than anything else is a godly guide. Since direction signals are some of the most confusing signs on life’s highway, we need more than a few street signs. We need a guide, someone who has gone before us and knows the way. If we are to be delivered from the hundreds of possible choices before us each day, we need someone to follow. And that person must also be one who knows just how difficult it is to sort out the confusion, to stay focused and to experience the distractions common to all of us. In other words, in Hebrew, we need a Messiah. A Messiah is someone whom God appoints for the task of representing fully and completely what God is like in this world and what we have to be like to stay in alignment with Him. A Messiah is literally a rescuer of those who have lost their way among the choices. A Messiah not only points us in the right direction, he has already taken that road and knows where it goes. In the past, God appointed various men as messiahs, anointed to perform specific roles within the community of the faithful. They all pointed, in some not-clearly-defined way toward a final version of this chosen rescuer, one who would provide answers to some of the truly biggest questions like, “What happens to me when I die?” Someone who has gone before us through that inevitability is someone to listen to. The conqueror of death settles one of the big questions. He provides an anchor point, not because he explains it but because he has experienced it. Such a guide is the trusted interpreter of human experience. He is authorized by God and worthy to follow. But we must nevertheless choose to do so.

This brings us to reconsider the role of the unique Messiah, the one chosen by YHVH to act as His final representative and authorized executor of His will for humanity. Previous messiahs played limited roles, but this one is the end of the line, the last word of God in the realm of men. His life, unique from beginning to end, is the sure sign that God has empowered him to act as our guide, our final guide, to kingdom living. In fact, YHVH endorses this Messiah by resurrection from the dead as the King who will never die again, and therefore the Kingdom he establishes is without end. All of this is about the history of God’s involvement with men and the Messiah is an historical person, not just an idea of ecclesiastical construction. He has an ancestry, a culture, and ethnicity, a point-of-view, a defined language and a way of living in the world. In other words, he is like us—human in a human world.

Messiah Yeshua fulfills multiple roles. He is the final word of interpretative commentary on the revelation given to Moses. In that capacity, he is the last rabbinic sage. He is the fully authorized regent of the Kingdom of YHVH. In other words, he is Lord of life. He is the ultimate expression of YHVH’s will in human form. In other words, he is the Word of YHVH manifest in our world. And he is the guarantor of God’s plan of total restoration. His resurrection from the dead is the first-fruit sign that God has not abandoned His intention that all creation will be reconciled and will glorify its Creator. There is no more important person who ever lived, or lives, in all humanity.

This Messiah fulfills a crucial role that is easily overlooked by Westerners. In our world, rationality is the hallmark of truth. Being human means being rational, logical and cognitive. This emphasis on mental affirmation and propositional logic can leave us empty of the emotional experience of God. We have all the right facts but we are left with a black hole in the heart. We don’t know God because we don’t feel Him. As Arnold Bennett observed, “There can be no knowledge without emotion. We may be aware of a truth, yet until we have felt its force, it is not ours. To the cognition of the brain must be added the experience of the soul.” Yeshua the Messiah introduces us to the feelings of the Father, and these feelings are not judgment, rejection and stern demands. They are graciousness, compassion, care and concern. Yeshua shows us the Father in his healing, forgiveness and sacrifice. Yeshua writes a theology of emotion with his life, something we have longed for since the poet David. Perhaps this is the most important of all his roles for us, Westerners who have been taught that there is something terribly wrong with who we are, Westerners who have succumbed to Plato’s view of the material world, Augustine’s view of sinful nature and Luther’s view of penal atonement. Yeshua comes to demonstrate that YHVH grieves over His lost children and seeks us with a broken heart of emotional longing and undying love.

All of these roles are true of both the Jewish Messiah and the Christian “Son of God.” They are, unfortunately, not equally true of the Christian “God the Son.” Considerable, admitted equivocation on the meaning of the word “person” is required for Trinitarian explanations. The Trinity is simply not a biblical concept derived directly from the text. It is a paradigmatic theological concept. It can be asserted as true only within this theological paradigm. For those who adopt the paradigm, a choice made prior to examination of the “evidence,” “Jesus is God” is a conclusion of the system. For those who do not share the presuppositions of this paradigm, Yeshua does not have to be God in order to be the one and only final Messiah. The history of the Church since the 4th century is testimony to the divisive nature of this theological assertion, an assertion that does not seem to find representation even among the earliest followers of Yeshua. They apparently understood Yeshua as The Messiah without claiming his ontological equality as YHVH. They certainly accepted him as their Lord and Master, as YHVH’s fully authorized representative, as the final interpreter of Moses and as the once and future King. One must wonder what else is necessary in order to fulfill the role.

Daniel Boyarin (The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ) points out that a divine Messiah is not a foreign concept to Jews, but this is not the same as saying that the Messiah is deity. We must be careful (extremely careful) to recognize that the language of the apostolic authors is not our language. The words they chose to use mean what they meant in the first century, not what they mean to us today. Since Jewish thought includes the idea that every person has a “divine spark” because of the animating action of the Ruach Hakodesh, it is perfectly acceptable to claim that Yeshua as Messiah exhibits in the fullest sense this divine connection. But that is not the same as the claim that he is deity. Perhaps it is helpful to note that the word “deity” is never found in Scripture and did not come into the language until Augustine coined the word in Latin. Our contemporary equivalence of “divine” and “deity” simply did not exist in the first century. History demonstrates that many human beings were considered divine during the time Yeshua walked in Israel, but that did not make them equivalent to the one true God, YHVH.

What does this mean for us, followers two millennia removed from the Jewish culture and context of the Messiah’s earliest proponents? Don’t we have the same connection with Yeshua that they had, removed only by intervening years? Yeshua is still the final interpreter of Moses, not the replacement of Moses. He is still the only one who deserves unrestrained loyalty and deference. He is, after all, my King here on earth. He is still the conqueror of death. How that happened is not nearly as important as the fact that it did happen, and because it happened you and I are released from the specter of meaningless existence. Death is not the end. He has proven that. He is still my daily guide. Yes, his words require decoding for my world, a world far removed from the political-social-technology of the first century. But human problems are fairly constant across the ages and his instruction is valid for us just as it was valid for his disciples. In the end, I choose to live according to his life and words. He is still the one who helps me experience the reality of the Father’s love. He is my friend who talks with me about a God who cares.

How does any of this diminish his importance? Frankly, it doesn’t. The only stumbling block here is that we have been accustomed to think of this unique, authorized manifestation of God’s word as divine, not in the sense of the first century use of the term but in our theologically Christian sense of the term where “divine” for us means “God.” We are frightened that we might have a Messiah who is not “God.” That doesn’t seem to have bothered any of his original followers, but it certainly bothers us. The real question is, “Why does it bother us?” Perhaps our concept of divinity is really a reflection of the Church and not the Bible. Perhaps we are Augustine’s children rather than Abraham’s.

How does this affect exegesis? What do we do with all those stories and lessons and instructions we find in the biblical text? May I suggest that in order to understand what our faithful guide Yeshua the Messiah is teaching us, we must first understand what he is teaching about. Since he is teaching about Torah in the context of first century Jewish thought, it seems reasonable (a Greek idea) to know something about these two topics before we attempt to extract ideas from a commentator on these topics. In other words, it’s not possible to understand the apostolic writings unless we understand the Tanakh. That doesn’t mean we put aside the words of the Messiah until we have fully comprehended the Tanakh. Such a task is impossible for us. We must begin somewhere and grow as we learn. Where we begin will be a choice. Where it leads us will probably not be. We will be driven to see the larger reality and we will struggle to incorporate that larger reality into our lives. Tension, progress, confusion, deliberation, decision, revelation—all seem to be part of this journey.

But it isn’t a journey for everyone. You will have to decide.

 

 

 

 

 

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Mark Randall

Sorry my brother, I respectfully and totally disagree. I’d have to write a book here to get my points across but, I won’t. And it’s kinda pointless to try anyway I think. Very simply, though, He is Immanuel “God with us” not a representation but, God with us.

When one looks at the numerous times the Apostles refer to Him in the Greek, yes greek, there’s simply nothing wrong with the Greek language they spoke and wrote the Apostolic text – as well as the Tanach, in, in which they used the word “Kurios”. It’s all over the Tanach and more often than not is used for YHVH.

He was YHVH that stood in physical form in front of Abraham. He was God that stood on the mountain at Sinai etc. etc. And of course on that road He pointed out the multiple places He was throughout the Tanach to the Apostles that were with Him.

I understand the difficulties with this view but, by no means is this so cut and dry, that “He just isn’t YHVH”. There’s far too much text to counter that and suggest otherwise. And one doesn’t have to use a Greek mindset to see it, just the text.

It really bothers me when I keep seeing people needing to use the term “Trinity doctrine” when they speak about or try to describe the plurality of YHVH. Because that just isn’t what it’s about. The name YHVH is used in reference to many things, far more times than just 3 in the Tanach. I mean He was called a rock too, right. YHVH the rock. Just as Yeshua is called the Rock as well. So, “trinity doctrine” just isn’t even accurate. That’s simply a term that some used in an attempt to describe the “plurality” of YHVH, And good luck with trying to do that. Which is what we keep trying to do. And that my brother, is very Greek minded. Hebrew thought just accepts things as the way they are quite often.

I respect yours or anyone else’s privilege to say otherwise, and I hope I get that too but, I think it’s way too much of a leap to say it just isn’t so or that we can’t see it in the Tanach or Apostolic writings.

I highly recommend Tim Heggs book “Messiah in the Tanakh. He shows massive scriptural evidence from the Hebrew of the Tanach as well as from many non-biblical Jewish texts such as the Targum Onkelos, Ps-Jonathan, and the Masoretic Text as well. Yes, they most definitely had an understanding of a coming divine Messiah. Of course, more modern rabbinic writings say otherwise. They’d have too, wouldn’t they? Just sayin…

You know I love you Skip and highly respect you. And it’s okay, as well as very healthy, for any us to not see eye to eye or have to agree with one another on everything. And this is one of those things I completely disagree with.

Cheryl

Skip, when you do take a look at it would you consider giving your critique of it for us? I would love to hear your thoughts on it. Thank you for writing this. I tend to agree with you but still find myself searching for an understanding of who Yeshua is. Not who he is or has been to me but to the first believers in him. If I could understand who they saw him to be I could understand him better for myself.

Lori

“Tension, progress, confusion, deliberation, decision, revelation—all seem to be part of this journey. But it isn’t a journey for everyone. You will have to decide.”
I have to confess that Mark and I have had four years and hundreds of hours (literally) on this conversation alone. We eventually agree to disagree and I end my conversation telling him that this is my/your journey and then he will reply: God likes for us to struggle over these things.
Sixteen years ago I started out on a journey that I thought was punishment from God. There had to be a reason for Him removing me from the only thing that I loved. He removed me from the church. I made lots of assumptions as to this deliberate act and then confessed and repented over the fact that I must have been a stench in His nostrils. (Thinking back I probably was!) I did not realize or understand where God would take me, but I knew I would have to truly make the effort to practice trusting Him. Spending 25 years being the “know it all” Christian, God had to dismantle the understanding part of my brain, piece by piece. I now know this term as “worldview”. The beauty of this journey is simply that I no longer have all the answers! For me, it has been a relief, humbling, and total vulnerability.
I preface this to say that what I appreciate about TW is that I can take the information and ponder my own thoughts and understanding to what I have interpreted the message to be. This is a new concept for me. (The one with all the answers!) As I stated, I didn’t always feel this way. I had to learn and I have learned this on my journey with TW.
I’m not sure if anyone is familiar with Sugata Mitra and his experiment called “A Hole in the Wall”. I heard him on Ted Talk. Fascinating story of how he and his team of colleagues dug a hole in a wall in the slums of New Delhi and the installed a computer with a hidden camera. Basically, the kids taught themselves how to use it and then taught others! The brief of the story is that his experiment demonstrates that even in the absence of any direct input from a teacher, an environment that stimulates curiosity can cause learning through self-instruction and peer shared knowledge. I’m making an analogy that I hope brings some insight to readers of TW. This blog stimulates curiosity! However, what we take away from this each day should in some manner have to do with how we interact with those around us on daily basis. If we read information for the purpose of puffed-up knowledge…well then, we already know what scripture says to that subject.
It is my desire to walk through life being taught through others’ journey and teaching others through mine.
To echo your close Skip that this it isn’t a journey for everyone -reminds me of Dale Carnegie’s famous quote: “The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare.”
I interpret the dare to be the same as when God says, “please”. He’s not forcing you to go, He’s simply asking.

Ric

“When one looks at the numerous times the Apostles refer to Him in the Greek, yes greek, there’s simply nothing wrong with the Greek language they spoke and wrote the Apostolic text – as well as the Tanach, in, in which they used the word “Kurios”. It’s all over the Tanach and more often than not is used for YHVH.”

Mark, I have never understood this argument for “Kurios” and the disciples use of this title toward Yeshua. Kurois simply means lord, master, husband, etc. and, certainly, it was used of YHVH in the Septuagint to replace the Hebrew “adonai” (and its various forms) also meaning lord or master. However, Sarah used it in Genesis 18:12 of Abraham, most certainly not calling him YHVH. That is just one simple example – the Tanach is is full of this use of the Hebrew that would be translated as “kurios” (Jacob to Esau, Lot to the angels, the children of Heth to Abraham, Abraham’s servant to Abraham, etc etc.) in the LXX. Is it not expected that the disciples would call Yeshua “lord” in that they recognized him as Messiah, the “Anointed of God?” I cannot see that this is a valid argument to use to defend the doctrinal belief that Yeshau is YHVH. There MAY be many other scriptures and words to examine but how do you see this one strengthening your argument?

Ester

Torah of Messiah .org and Hebrew-streams .org has good articles on this topic. Shalom.

Mark Randall

Problem I have with places like that is they want to promote that there’s something “hidden” in the text. That we somehow need “deeper meaning” or secret code to figure out the scripture.

Well, Moses tells us that’s not true. It’s in your mouth “common human language” and in your heart (which in Hebrew thought is your brain where you think at) and we don’t have to go into the heavens or the sea to figure it out and understand it. It’s right before us and there aren’t any “deeper levels” of the plain text. We don’t need mysticism, kabbalah, Talmud, Zohar or pardes to be able to read and understand the text. We don’t need word pictures or things that tickle the ear. There is no secret code or hidden meaning in numbers and letters. That’s seriously untrue. If that were the case then we’d all be doomed to fail.

No, it’s very much understandable. However, it’s the Spirit of the Creator of heaven and earth that allows us to be able to apply it. That’s what sets us apart. That’s what allows us to walk it out.

If we’re thinking that Yeshua is just some kind of “special” human, then we’re nothing but idolators. If He isn’t YHVH in the flesh then we’re lost and without a redeemer. Because He’s our Salvation (YHVH) and our Lamb. It’s only YHVH that saves His people. And the text tells us that YHVH is what and who saves us.It’s because of His blood, His sacrifice that was accepted and proven through His resurrection and ascension that we enter into His kingdom. There is but one way and one way only into the Holy place and that’s through Yeshua/YHVH.

Ester

Some quotes from the above sites would be appropriate:
Hebrew- Streams .org- Yeshua’s Father and God

“Father…glorify your Son.
Holy Father, keep them.
O righteous Father…I have known you.”
(John 17:1,11,25)
“This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God,
and Yeshua Mashiach whom you have sent.”
(John 17:3)
“Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will but what you will.” (Mark 14:36)
Yeshua taught his disciples to pray to their Father in heaven: to God His Father (Matt 6:8-9; Luke 11:2). Remember his words to Mary Magdalene after his resurrection:
“Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.’ ” (John 20:17)
“These things have been written that you may believe that
Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31)
“He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. “(Luke 1:35)

….more quotes coming from Torah of Messiah site.

Ester

Rather, here are Topics found on Torah of Messiah .org:

“The Temptation of Yeshua Proves he is NOT God”,
“Worship of Messiah as God is the Worship of “Other gods”,
“The Lack of Discussion about Christ’s Deity Disproves It!”,

“Yeshua: God’s empowered AGENT, but he is not God
(Audio included) “If Messiah is not God how was he able to forgive sins? Only God can forgive sins.” Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is NOT God-incarnate, but he IS God’s fully empowered agent. That gives him enormous power and authority.”

“Was Messiah Perfect or Perfected?”
(Audio included) Was Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) perfect? Or, was he perfected? God is already perfect. The New Testament clearly states that Yeshua was not perfect, but had to become perfect. Does an infinite, perfect Creator God need to be “perfected”?

“Does Messiah Yeshua Being our “Savior” Mean he is God?
Like our discussion of Psalms 110:1, the God-in-the-flesh crowd like to look to the implicit proof that because God and Yeshua (Jesus) are both referred to as ‘Savior’ that they must then be one and the same. But if we look at this logically, that argument does not make sense.”

“Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) worshiped God. Proving he is NOT God
Common sense: God does not worship a God. The gospels record Yeshua worshiping and praying to God. Are Christian and counterfeit Messianic leaders wishing us to believe that God worships God? Yes!”

Many, more articles and some with audios that I am gleaning from.
Shalom.

laurita hayes

I have been thinking a good deal lately about what exactly happened when we ate that fruit. Mainly about what we limited ourselves to. I think that perhaps we are now stuck in the paradigm of experience because that is what we chose. We lost direct experience of YHVH, too, and instead, became limited to experiencing Him in types and shadows. BUT, I think that that choice also may have limited Him, too: it meant that the only way we were going to be able to directly experience Him is if He BECAME us, and came to us.

We fuss about Who God is all the time. The entire planet is embroiled in the representations of a god that are merely reflections of itself. We are lost when it comes to the ability to grasp exactly Who He is – unless He could show us by direct experience. IF Yeshua was not God come in the flesh, we are left unable to understand. We are left with just speculations in the dark, because when we ate the fruit, we yanked the light cord. Now no one can see: we are all groping in the dark of our intellects, darkened as the text says. ‘Enlightenment’ is a laugh: with human eyes no one will see, unless we become blessed with the sight from heaven. We must now see Him through His own eyes, or we will never see Him at all. So, I think He came to give us His eyes, His Body, His Mind, His Spirit – all in the gift of His Son.

Now we have only faith. I was reading a science article about empirical evidence – what it is and is not, and the article was pointing out that, really, there is no such thing. All that we know of science, at some point in the process, we have to take on faith. All of it. We lack the ability to ‘prove’ one single blessed thing. I think it is also this kind of darkness – the darkness that cannot grasp empirical evidence – that we also bring to that Good Book. We have to take it on faith: not because the ‘evidence’ is not there in reality, but because we lack the ability to grasp it now. I have looked cover to cover in an effort to find empirical evidence for and against the proposition that Messiah was fully God in the flesh, and both assertions, at the end of the day, rest on faith. I think we are left in this world ONLY with fruit: only with guessing and then checking to see if our guesses pan out. So I would like to ask something here. I would like to ask if we could treat both sides of this issue as potential fruit trees, and then go see what fruit each produces.

There must be a reason that, as the gospel spread out into the pagan world, and left the rarified air and understanding of the land of Israel, and encountered a blind world that was going only on what it experienced and could see, that the doctrine that stated that Messiah was God in the flesh became codified. It was obviously a reaction to some sort of understanding in that world that called for that clarified understanding. It may be wise to drop back and ask things like this, before we go getting so hot and bothered by attempts to make empirical statements. Lets perhaps get the things out of their respective boxes and ask them to move in the real world, and ripen some fruit. What is the end result of believing one way or the other, if any?

Judi Baldwin

Amen Laurita…Amen

Mark

I haven’t read the entire post yet, but had to comment after reading just the first few paragraphs. Because we’re very greek-minded people, is this why we tend to take Paul’s directions in his letters and create ‘universal’ truths from them? We don’t read his letters from his Hebrew perspective where he is actually observing issues and responding to specific people, but rather we read it as a universal truth as if he was writing to us 2000+ years later. OK, going back to finish the post. 🙂

Rich Pease

Skip,
Nice to chat with you this morning.

You write so eloquently about the many attributes and scriptural evidences
of our Messiah. Indeed, you have studied Him intently.

Yet I remain perplexed about the stumbling block that seemingly prevents
you from knowing WHO He is. Or do I have the stumbling block because
I believe I know who He is?

Patricia O

The conqueror of death settles one of the big questions. He provides an anchor point … because he has experienced it … the one chosen by YHVH to act as His final representative … YHVH endorses this Messiah by resurrection from the dead as the King who will never die again … He is the final word …

My Question — There have been others who were resurrected by YHVH so how can any Messiah be the final word IF he cannot resurrect himself?

Stephen C

Elephant? Is there an elephant in the room?

I love this discussion and honor the importance of it. Every time I ponder this I feel like one of the men in the story of the blind men who encounter an elephant for the first time. Each is holding and touching a different part, the tail, the trunk, a leg etc and each is describing it with the intensity of truth from their lives experiences. I feel like this personally and then as I step into the shoes of others as well and find myself thinking “elephant”.

What’s the elephant? For me, the best words I can describe are; purity, pure intimacy, closeness, oneness, a longing that every part of me cries out for. That place beyond words, the nonverbal communication described when comparing natural bonding to the secure attachment bond a mother creates in a child’s life.1

Each time I ponder this I enter into my own inner struggle. It is in a desire to honor God in all things and yet I am trying to describe a meal when all I have had is the appetizers. I hide behind my mental deliberations when this cry for intimacy can drop me to my face in tears and groaning. I pray for the bond of Christ to be formed in me then struggle to honor the very unusual ways He brings to answer this very prayer. Insecurity screams when this cry for intimacy arises, not just if you “knew this” about me but more; if you knew how desperately I need this would you still love me.

We are touching a cry of the generations and the heart of God when we enter into this question….who do you say I am. Thank you for providing a space where we can share such precious

1. What is secure attachment and bonding….article at helpguide.org

Patricia O

Would Yeshua’s physical death necessarily include spiritual death?

Thank you Skip for facts/questions that challenge the weakness of an argument.
I appreciate also that at times you reveal/discuss facts that ‘may’ refute an argument you are making, allowing ‘students’ to possibly draw a different conclusion or send us running back to THE BOOK.

GodfearingAustrianHypatia

Wow. As a mathematician I am drawn to logic and rationality; understanding the Hebrew worldview does not come naturally to me. This post, and the one on loneliness, have given me much food for thought – enough to comment for the first time! Thank you for them. Shabbat shalom

Amanda Youngblood

Thank you for this Skip. More to add to my pondering about Yeshua and who he is. I am beginning to reconcile myself to knowing that I may never know truly, and that Gd loves me even in my ignorance. He still listens to means responds when I cry out, even if I’m getting wrong out a sincere desire to get it right.

Craig Borden

For me, it matters not whether I agree or disagree theologically; it matters whether today I will practically, with my life, follow Messiah. Is it more important today that I love Him with all my heart, soul and strength, and love my neighbor as myself, or that I be right?

Ric

Amen and Amen!

Dana

Skip, I have a couple of questions based on your thoughts here. One, why was there need for the Messiah to be born of a virgin? and Second, what separates Yeshua from other divine people who have come that allows Him to be sin but not have sinned while He walked this earth?

Jonathan Emmert

Skip,
I don’t agree with your conclusion, but you have raised some good questions. After reading this article I simply broke in tears for the simple reason of how you defined the role of Messiah. One who has gone before and know the road we are on. This is such comfort with the decisions I face, and confirmation of where I need to place my trust. For that I thank you.

Mark Randall,
Thanks for mentioning Tim Hegg’s book. I’m going to have to get a copy, it sounds interesting.

Christine Hall

Is the son the Father? Is the Father the son?

In a family the son can look like the Father, act like the father, be recognized as the fathers son. He can be a doctor, lawyer, artist etc just like his father. He can follow in his father’s footsteps to be a great or even greater doctor, lawyer, artist etc.
He can often be talked of, referred to as ‘the son of ……. ‘ (not even mentioning the sons name). In every way he can be a likeness of his father or as we say ‘a chip off the old block’. BUT he is still the son and his father is still the father – right?

Why does Yeshua constantly defer to his Father in his beautiful prayer in John 17?
Why does he pray in verse 3 that…….’eternal life is this: to know YOU, the ONLY true Elohim, AND Yeshua Ha Messiah whom you sent’?

Why do we think that because Yeshua says things like …..He and the
Father are one……..You are in Me as I Am in You………etc etc that He is God?
If he constantly defers to the Father and says he made HIS (YHWH’s) name known to them v 26 of John 17 ( and not ‘our’ names or ‘my’ name) how then can we make the leap that the son is the Father (i.e. he is YHWH in the flesh?)

As in the example of a son and father I mentioned above – they are two separate entities but with the same DNA – yes they are one – in how they act, what they believe, what they do, even they can look so similar, etc etc., BUT they are not one and the same person the son is ‘of’ the Father but not ‘THE father’ and the father is not the son but ‘sired’ the son who has his genes/DNA etc. I trust you can follow my ‘logic’?

Since I came to Torah over 10 years or so ago it was The Father who took me into his Torah, then revealed the Son ( the living Torah) as HIS example of how to live it out in spirit and truth. I grew up in church which very rarely mentioned ‘God’ it was just ‘Jesus’ . My personal understanding of who Yeshua was during this transition was life changing because Yeshua said in John 6:44′ No one comes to ME except the Father draws him …..and then ‘He’ Yeshua will raise him up on the last day’.

I did not know the Father other than like a stern grandfather and I only knew a ‘Greek’ looking/speaking Jesus whom I was told had saved me from my sins and the ‘ harsh ‘ law.

It was when I began to ‘see’ the church for what it really was that I began a personal quest to know God through the beginning of His word – Torah. To my surprise in this journey I felt compelled to let go of ‘Jesus’ – to get to know the Father. In Torah I found the Father (what a journey it has been and still is!) ….. then ‘through’ Torah I began to be drawn to Yeshua who became my example – like my elder bother – leading me in his Fathers ways – the one who conquered death and and who will raise me up on the last day!
Read on in vs 45 …’it is written in the prophets they will be taught by Elohim everyone who has listened to the Father and learnt from Him comes to me’!

In my journey I discovered this and realized what an upside down version the church speaks!

Sorry this is long – hope it makes sense – but I concur on this with Skip not because he said it but because it’s been my experience.

George Kraemer

This recovering Catholic has a problem with anything that gets decided by a “committee” that is convened, chaired and ruled upon by a pagan emperor who has political and economic problems and uses a religious issue to help himself resolve his problems by military decree and earthly religious power vis a vis The Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople.

If the best that can be said to decide an issue is that it is implied by the text then I will go with something more specific like John 14:28 “I go to the Father for the Father is greater than I” or Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Phyllis Muller

I cant explain things from a theological standpoint but being Jewish and growing up knowing there is only one true G-d makes it easier for me to understand and accept Yeshua as the son and savior without having to think about it more than that. For me it is just the truth . I know this in my heart. I also know that other Jews could not accept him any other way, for the Shema is what we have been taught thru the ages from Moses at Sinai where Torah was given to him from YHVH . And the Father never changes. My personal feelings of course.

George Kraemer

Phyliss, do you attend a synagogue? Which “style” is it? Reform, conservative etc. Are you accepted with your belief in Yeshua as Messiah? I would like to attend one but dont know where to go or how to approach the issue. Shalom shabbat George

Rusty

I have the same questions George.

Mel Sorensen

As another disciple of Yeshua, this is a topic I have studied, wrestled with, and prayed about and I for one really appreciate you, Skip, allowing the rest of us to see your thoughts as you work through this. For me, although there are a lot of Scriptures that could be referenced, I think I can boil it down to a few simple statements that have impacted my search. And also one reference to a Scripture in the Tanach that I think is very important.

The first has already been referenced in one of the comments above. It is John 17:3 where Yeshua said: “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (NASB). That one seems pretty clear to me.

The next one is a statement by Paul: “For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” – 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (NASB). That one is fairly clear except the NASB italicizes both instances of “exist”. Perhaps someone can help me understand the reason for that.

Another statement by Paul: “Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.” – Romans 3:29-30 (NASB) The footnote in the NASB for “one” refers back to Deuteronomy 6:4 which of course is the Shema.

In yet another place Paul says: “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.” – 1 Timothy 2:5-6 (NASB). I don’t see how Yeshua can be the mediator between YHVH and man if he is God in the same sense as YHVH.

In Peter’s sermon on Shavuot in Acts 2 there are several references that seem to me to differentiate between God the Father and Messiah. And he sums it up with “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”. In my reading of the context of his sermon it appears that YHVH made Yeshua both Lord and Messiah as a result of his life of total obedience even to the point to the point of death. Because of this YHVH raised him from the dead and exalted him to His right hand and the position of power possessed by the Messiah.

The last thing I would point out is the New Testament usage of Psalm 110, particularly verse 1. From what I have found it is the most quoted and alluded to Psalm in the NT. If we back up a couple verses in Peter’s sermon in Acts 2 we find a reference to Psalm 110:1 beginning in verse 34:”For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”‘ Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.” – Acts 2:34-36 (NASB).

When we go to Psalm 110:1 we find the NASB has chosen to translate it “The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” instead of all caps as they did in the Acts quotation, which I believe are supposed to be small caps to indicate an Old Testament passage. The key words in the verse are obviously the two instances of Lord. The first one in all caps I believe the NASB uses to translate Adonai, a reference to YHVH. The second translated “my Lord” is adoni. From what I have found adoni occurs 195 times and is never the title of Deity. Sir Anthony Buzzard (I know, he’s a unitarian) in the footnote to Acts 2:34 in his NT translation says “The capital letter on the second lord of Ps. 110:1 is most misleading, forcing the reader to believe that the second lord is Adonai, the Lord GOD–a second GOD! Adoni is never a title of Deity. Adonai always is.” (The caps in the quote are Buzzard’s).

I have noticed one translation (NRSV) that has the second lord in lower case letters, and the Amplified Bible shows the difference in parentheses: The Lord (Father) says to my Lord (the Messiah, His Son), “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet [subjugating them into complete submission].” – Psalm 110:1 (AMP).

Skip, God willing, I hope to get the privilege to meet you when you come to Missouri. Along with a few others in our small Torah study group we are tentatively planning to make the trip to Sedalia. My brother lives there and we don’t see each other nearly often enough so hopefully I can accomplish two goals at the same time. Do you know the subject of your lectures or is that yet to be deternmined?

Mel Sorensen

Thanks Skip, I really like the your post from June 9, 2014. I didn’t remember it although I’m sure I read it. It looks like you were way ahead of me……….again!

Brett T

I really appreciate Skip and this community for exploring Yeshua’s identity. You don’t get to do this everyday at your local congregation without people believing you have “gone too far”.

Personally, the more I see Yeshua as a man that is one with Father not by being the “same person”, but in his life on earth, the more hope I have. It allows me to relate more to his humanity; his vulnerabilities, temptations, emotions, etc. Yet he was obedient, zealous for His Father’s Word, compassionate, devoted to prayer and much more. There is something inside me that says: “I can do this too! I can love like him. I can serve like him.”

We have one family in the Messianic congregation I attend that identifies as Orthodox Jewish. They attend because of the emphasis on Torah and the love of the community. When you believe in Yeshua as Messiah but not “the same person” or equivalent as YVHV, it really brings up interesting dialogue.

-Brett

Mel Sorensen

Brett, I appreciate your comments. I have had people who no longer want to have fellowship with me because they think by emphasizing Yeshua’s humanity I have somehow dimished him. Not only do I think that is not true, I am more in awe of him by what he accomplished. He lived his entire life in obedience God. And he demonstrated what a human, empowered by the Spirit of God without measure, was supposed to look like. I think that is what the writer of the letter to the Hebrews meant:

“For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.” – Hebrews 2:17 (NIV)

Mark Randall

Hello Brett

Just a couple questions.

So, your thinking Yeshua was just a man? How does “just a man” become the Salvation of all the people of YHVH? How does just a man claim “if you’ve seen Me you’ve seen the Father”? Where do we ever see any normal man in the text say they and the Father are one? Or how does just a mere person tell us to pray in His name and He will do it? How do we begin to assume that just a regular ole’ man can pay an eternal price for our transgressions? Or which man of God, says of a “just man”, he was the word of the Creator of heaven and earth made flesh, that flesh dwelt with us and was God? Which man has it ever been said of nothing ever came into being without him (in other words, the Creator)? And what kind of regular guy ascends to the right hand of the Father waiting for all His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet?

Of course, I could toss in about 100 more but, really…

All due respect, it just doesn’t add up or make any sense to call Yeshua, our Salvation, God with us, “just a man”. And you’re saying something inside of you tell’s you, “you can do it too”?

Saddens me to see this thread going in this direction.

In addition, Mel, He didn’t come to show us what a Godly many looks like, many in scripture have done that. He came to save His people. To bring us into right standing with the Father by paying the price for us. He was and is, “Salvation”. That’s what His name means.

Mark Randall

Brett, please don’t think I’m just trying to be mean or disrespectful. That I am not. Intention isn’t always easily displayed on a blog. I’m just asking what I think should be thought about and answered.

Shavua tov!

Annamarie

“So, your thinking Yeshua was just a man? How does “just a man” become the Salvation of all the people of YHVH?… And what kind of regular guy ascends to the right hand of the Father waiting for all His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet?”

Mark,

“Just a man” became the salvation of all the people of YHVH by living fully the meaning of his name; God called him to be “salvation” by name and because of Yeshua’s obedience, he was glorified by YHVH.

You ask: “How do we begin to assume that just a regular ole’ man can pay an eternal price for our transgressions?”

Only God saves; so, Jews don’t confuse Yeshua’s fulfillment of eternal salvation to be the same as the salvation offered by God to all mankind before the foundations of the world.

In the same way, Israel was commanded by God to be a kingdom of kings and priests on the earth. Don’t priests atone for the sins of people? But, how can “just a man” on earth do that, you ask? Again, because God called it into being through the priesthood of Aaron. Jews don’t confuse the earthly sacrifices/offerings with the eternal sacrifice of the man, Yeshua.

How does “just a man” save an entire nation from the bondage of slavery? Moses was called of God to do so, and he did — right? And there’s no confusion between Moses’s fulfillment of physical salvation with Aaron’s priestly sacrifices, or Yeshua’s eternal offering of salvation.

The Jews consider Moses and David and Aaron and Yeshua to ALL be messiah’s — why? In Hebrew, “messiah” simply means anointed one of God. A messiah is a savior, or a liberator of a group of people; a king, or high priest — all mere men. Jews don’t make the mistake of worshiping these individuals instead of God because it was God who gave them the supernatural power to accomplish what they did as mere men in the first place.; nor do Jews confuse the different expressions of salvation on the earth with the ultimate power of YHVH who is the source of ALL of man’s needs of which salvation is just one.

Finally, scripture says that there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend. We each are meant to “take up our cross daily” in order to follow God the way that Yeshua dd. By obeying God, Yeshua said that we would actually do greater things than he… yes, as mere men… because, like Yeshua, we are each anointed of God to have some positive effect on the world.

So, Brett is scripturally solid in saying that there is something inside him that says: “I can do this too! I can love like him (Yeshua). I can serve like him.” It’s called the anointing of God which gives us faith to do the miraculous. Paul said, “… christos in you, the hope of glory.” Col 1:27, whereby christos in Greek means Messiah, or “anionted”, in Hebrew.

Mark Randall

See, the Apostles of the 1st century didn’t seem to have too much of a problem describing Yeshua as equal, yet distinct. But we sure do today. Don’t we? As Lori said, I do believe we were meant to have to wrestle with the text. However, when our understanding seems to come to an end, we simply have to accept it and affirm it as being true. That’s the Hebrew way of thinking.

A few other word studies from the text to wrestle with.

“For the grace of God (Theos) has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, teaching us to say No to wickedness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Yeshua Messiah, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works.”
(Titus 2:11–14)

Yes, that’s the words as it is in the text. “..our great God and Savior Messiah Yeshua …” ἐγώ μέγας θεός καί σωτήρ Χριστός Ἰησοῦς – egō megas Theos kai sōtēr Iēsous Christos.

Think about that for a minute. The grace of God “has appeared”, bringing “salvation/Yeshua”…

“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Messiah Yeshua, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of man. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on an execution stake. Therefore, God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Yeshua every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Yeshua Messiah is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
(Philippians 2:5–11)

“..form of God..” morphe Theos μορφή θεός. Notice the wording. He “did not count equality (ἴσος isos) with God (θεός) a thing to be grasped” (ἁρπαγμός). Yet we can today? Oh, bless His Name! We’ve become so much smarter.

…but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant (actually bondservant – δοῦλος), being born in the likeness (ὁμοίωμα )of men.

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that His name, Yeshua, is above all names? A statement like that would have got you killed in the 1st century. Wouldn’t it? Oh wait, they did kill them.

This can’t be just a man. That would mean we have to tear out a few verses. Maybe even pages. Either that or just ignore them as if we don’t see and read them. Or find reasons why it just can’t be so (we do that really well in the 21st century).

Ahhh, the wrestling match continues….

Mark Randall

I really love this part in the Hebrew too.

Therefore God exalted Him exceedingly, bestowing on Him a Name
al ken hig-bi-ho ha-Elohim m’-od va-yi-tein lo shem
which is above all names, that at the Name of Yeshua
na-a-leh al kol shem a-sher b’-shem Ye-shu-a
every knee will bow whether in heaven or on the earth or under the earth.
tich-ra kol berech a-sher ba-sha-ma-im u-va-aretz u-mi-ta-chat la-aretz

And every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is Master
v’-chol la-shon to-deh ki a-don Ye-shu-a ha-Ma-shi-ach
to the glory of God the Father.
lich-vod Elohim ha-av
(Philippians 2:9-11)

Ester

Shalom Mark, Did you miss this-
“to the glory of God the Father.
lich-vod Elohim ha-av”
Everything that Meshiach did was to lift up the Name/character of his Av/Father.
Lifting up just the “Name” does not , will not present Who the Father/Creator is, but lifting high His character will reveal Who He is, that the world seeks/needs to see and appreciate.
Meshiach lifted up His Father’s character by his lifestyle, and discipline as a good son would, as we should too as Father’s sons, birthed divinely by Him.
“Elohim” means a mighty one/god, not necessarily means The Creator of heaven and earth. Translators capitalize the “E” making it to appear as Father THE Almighty YHWH.
Meshiach has never sought anyone to worship him, nor has he ever said he was the Father. He and His Father are one, just as we are one in YHWH, individually and corporately.
We see Meshiach as the Lamb in Rev. seated at the right hand (a place of honour) of the Father, two entities, not one.
My understanding.

laurita hayes

The Personalities are very distinct, that I think I see everyone agreeing on. Not the same Person.

Dana

Skip, what about Jeremiah 23:5 – 6

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’

In my one Bible, it says that the Lord is our Righteousness is in Hebrew : YHWH Tsedqinou (don’t know if I spelled that properly)

Annamarie

If no one can see God and live, how can Yeshua be (fully) God on the earth?

I think that Bob Gorelik explains this topic best. Assuming I understand Bob’s teaching correctly, Yeshua is a representation of God’s character – salvation – on the earth. No one comes to the Father, except through Yeshua (salvation), meaning: only God saves; no one experiences eternal Salvation without knowing/obeying the One True God.

Throughout all of history, God has manifested His nature to us in various ways: a burning bush, the form with whom Jacob wrestled, a guest to Abraham and Sarah, a voice on Mount Sanai, a Spirit on the day of Pentacost, an angel, Melchezadek, the man named, Yeshua, etc. When Hagar experienced God on the earth, she called Him “El Roi”, the God Who Sees Me; Jonah experienced Him as El Channun, the Gracious God. In Genesis 32, God is experienced on earth as El Yisrael, the God of Israel. Abraham experienced Him as Jehovah-Jireh, meaning God Provides, because He provided a replacement sacrifice for Isaac. Abraham did not worship the ram, or the angel who spoke to him; he worshiped God as his Provider. In contrast, Catholicism and Christianity have made idols of God’s manifestations on the earth (i.e. Yeshua, angels, Spirit, etc.), and worshiped them instead of God, Himself.

Jews, DO believe in Yeshua because His name means “salvation”, just like they believe in Jehovah-Jireh, El Yisrael, and El Roi. They are all El Ehad, “One”. It is, in fact, in Jewish doctrine, where it was first stated that there would be a Messiah ben Joseph, and a Messiah ben David; so, it’s no stretch for Jews to know Him as “salvation” in the renewed covenant. Isn’t that who God had already been to them in the ram who appeared as a sacrifice in Isaac’s place, afterall? Wasn’t it (the Spirit of) God that “saved” Israel when He passed over their houses in Exodus 12? Bob make a point to teach that thousands upon thousands of Jews believed in Yeshua as the Messiah when He walked on the earth, and they were all his rabbinic disciples; not just the twelve. Millions do even today. (It’s just that Jews do not believe in the Christian messiah, named Jesus, and all the false doctrines based upon the idolatry of him.) It’s wonderful that we, gentiles, are also beginning to embrace God, alone, as our Salvation and abandon our false gods like gentiles did in Yeshua’s time. In this way all of Israel will be (and is still being) saved (Romans 11:26), I think.

NOTE: I don’t mean to speak for Bob; this is just my understanding of his teaching on this subject which I found very helpful, and personally freeing. Sorry, I can’t remember in which of his seminars this topic was covered. Do you know, Skip?

Annamarie

God willing, I am going to move to Israel and you and Bob can visit me while you’re on tour, instead. 🙂 🙂

Michael C

I like your plan, Annamarie. I’d like to move there as well.

Rich Pease

It’s amazing the restrictions or doubts we humans place on WHO God is.
Let Him be WHO He is. Who He SAYS He is.

It’s obvious God wants us to know Him.
It’s obvious an enemy does not.

His words are spirit and they are life.
May our spirit life HEAR them.

laurita hayes

I know I am finite: I have limits. I cannot be God. That is our difference, and that is my limit. Paganism is all about obscuring that limit, by the way.

But who dares say He cannot be me?

michael stanley

Laurita, I respect your opinions and almost always agree with them-(although I admit I have some trouble understanding a few of them), but “Who dares say He can’t be me?” Really? Maybe because you are already you. There can be no another You. Just as there can be no other YHWH (and yes, I understand that you mean “you” as a human, but humor me and follow my reasoning and repeat after me):If I am I and He is He, then I am not He and He is not me. If I am He and He is me, then I am not I and He is not He, but if I am I because He is He and He is He because I am I, then I am I and He is He … and all is well in HIM. Laurita, as a rule I have always found you to be you (pleasantly so) and Arnella( my wife) to be she (blessedly so) and me to be me (sadly so) and without exception this rule applies to all; therefore, in like manner, I have come to see YHWH to be Elohim and Yeshua to be Messiah. There are psychiatric terms for those who believe themselves to be GOD and those who believe themselves to be other than who they are or who believe that they have multiple identities in themselves. Yeshua is not confused as to His identity, thinking He IS GOD or Lauita or John Doe, nor is He schizophrenic. Nor is YHWH confused in any of these things. We sometimes are confused, but one of the blessings of this blog is that we, through discussion and debate, can realize our perception of reality MAY be skewed (from prior teaching, indoctrination, inheritance, ignorance) and that we can use our minds to listen to others and bring our thoughts about YHWH to a higher place. Our forefathers surrendered much when they broke ranks with the Jews and chose to mix Greek/Roman paganism with their new religion. Let us begin (or continue) to reclaim that which was lost, stolen or ignored. I don’t need or want special revelation that suggests other than what the early disciples would have understood and readily embraced (SHEMA), especially when it contradicts logic and forsakes simplicity for the sake of mystery and profundity. I don’t claim that I have the same power of logic or persuasion that Skip skillfully wields, but I hope my plea to be open to consider other ideas and paradigms will be given prayerful consideration by you, Mark and others who seem to hold to the traditional “Christian” theology of Christology. All of us here are on the same path, so let us tread lightly and be willing to shed that which might weigh us down. Finally, let us not trod upon each other to get to our “destination” quicker…only to find we are alone.

laurita hayes

Dear Michael and Arnella, you are both people I want to walk with to the end of time and beyond. Your wit and wisdom resonate with me and I smile always when I think of you both. Thank you for being there.
We walk in faith and not by sight, and for sure I must do so. Every day my faith gets reinformed and so I get reformed accordingly. Hopefully by your insights, too! I am still asking from my place like everyone else, I am sure.

When we both stand in that Last Day, and see Him Whom I wish to call True and let every man jack and jenny of us called be a liar then, too, may we both be found busy doing what we hopefully do here at Skip’s TW, every day. I am sure everyone’s paradigm will be getting a huge shift that day, but hopefully for us it will just be par for the course. I am looking forward to it with both of you. Until then, may we walk together first, and may we talk only second!

Michael Stanley

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