Another Realm
I said, “You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you will die like men . . . Psalm 82:6-7 NASB
Sons of the Most High – Michael Heiser’s book, The Unseen Realm, raises a very interesting and controversial point. The biblical worldview includes another realm, a world of spiritual beings created by the Most High God, who occupy positions of authority and exercise assigned duties. This view is consistent with much of the Egyptian-Babylonian worldview but clearly antithetical to today’s religious perspective. Of course, the Bible doesn’t really care about what we think now. It was written to an audience thoroughly familiar with these ancient ideas. Heiser draws a startling conclusion:
You can see why the psalm threw me for a loop. The first verse has God presiding over an assembly of gods. Doesn’t that sound like a pantheon—something we associate with polytheism and mythology? For that very reason, many English translations obscure the Hebrew in this verse. . . . There’s no need to camouflage what the Hebrew text says. People shouldn’t be protected from the Bible. The biblical writers weren’t polytheists.[1]
The writers weren’t polytheists, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t adopt the worldview of their contemporary religious culture. In ancient times, the world was populated by other divine beings. Not beings who were equal to God. There is only ONE Most High. But there are others who are not human also created by the Most High. We acknowledge the existence of angels, but the Bible suggests more than just angels. David’s psalm reflects the belief that other divine beings who function in ways like God and who are described as the sons of God also exist. These are the bene elyon, the “sons of God.” Heiser’s book makes strides forward in understanding who these beings are in the context of the ancient Near East.
Are you feeling a bit uncomfortable? Our worldview, even if it is Christian, does not contain the idea of other real gods (with a small “g”). As a result of 2000 years of theological education, we are convinced that there is only one being in the category “god.” But the ancient world didn’t think this way. In fact, even in the first century men believed in the unseen realm of many other divine beings. Certainly this was the case in the 10th Century BCE. So when the biblical text employs imagery and ideas from its own cultural perspective, it speaks of this other realm. That does not mean that any other god rivals YHVH. It simply means that there are more sentient, free-will beings in the creation than men. If we are going to understand the Bible in its own context, we may have to rethink some very basic assumptions. That’s disturbing. That creates cognitive dissonance. And that’s how we learn.
Topical Index: gods, bene elyon, sons of God, Psalm 82:6, Michael Heiser
[1] Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm, p. 27.
Skip, were these created beings always referred to as elohim, and would they include the class of beings, some of which are named and described as being before the throne, such as the cherubim and seraphim? Also, are we to worship any deity that we perceive has power over us? Are we to recognize the fact that we are to worship them by virtue of the fact that they hold power? Where are the lines to draw with divinity? I want to see divinity defined in terms of commanded worship. Thanks.
I have also wondered sometimes through what reference point some verses were written. For example, when, in verses, FALSE elohim were being referred to, they were treated in the verses as REAL – not from the perspective of heaven, most clearly – but from the perspective of people who had deemed them ‘real’. Does the fact that we ascribe power to various spiritual influences at that point ‘create’, as it were, from our perspective, a wormhole, as it were, through which we can be influenced? I am talking about voodoo, for just one example. Voodoo is not just in people’s heads. Voodoo palpably changes reality for large populations. That’s a lotsa power! Would the Bible, then, if it were writing about voodoo, describe this obvious power (deity) over the people who choose it as “elohim”? I just die of curiosity over stuff like this!
L~
Heifer actually has some very interesting youtube videos up on this very topic. You should look into them. “Unseen Realm” and “Psalm 82” are good starters.
So glad you are referring to Michael Heiser’s book. I have it on Audio and have been listening to it over the last few weeks. I find it very illuminating and (for me) explains some extraordinary events that have happened in my own life. I would say to myself how could that happen must have been an angel or something!?!
Many years ago 2004 I think – at the airport in Israel I was singled out to have my suitcase searched – I was returning to the UK. The case was heavy and took ages to pack (I had been living in Israel three months) … I sighed and turned to my friend traveling with me and said ‘ oh no we are going to miss our flight by the time I repack this case and get it to the check in’.
As I zipped and closed the case about to lift it off the table – out of nowhere a man appeared he did not say a word but picked up my case as if it was a feather and walked over to the check-in in front of everyone and put it down – my friend and I were stunned how did he know which desk etc. As I watched the suitcase being but down. In a kind of daze pulling out my passport…. He was gone/ disappeared he could not have walked past all the people so quickly there was no exit – I never got to say thank you – my friend was searching around the crowded area and said ‘who was he, where is he – this is impossible!
Sitting on the plane I found my heart and mind overwhelmed and said to YHWH – thank you for sending one of your angles/agents without my even asking anyone for help! How awesome is your power and your care how little I know you – please increase my understanding of your ineffable power’.
I am finding Heisler’s book remarkble and informative – ‘YHWH has divine family an assembly of divine beings or elohim and he is among them, their creator and master’ (indirect quote by Heisler). Wow! Like him I wondered if I had ever read Psalm 82!
Recommend it – worth reading / contemplating/ readjusting ones thoughts.
Christine
Wow! How remarkable! Thanks for sharing your story. I will definitely have to add Heiser’s book to my reading list.
before you run off to buy, I have a few more things to say about the book. Be patient.
Ok I will
Skip
You once spoke of the Nephilim and that they, in your understanding, were not the product of these “gods” mating with human woman. But rather powerful men mating with women. Does this not give credence to the possibility of the first interpretation? Or I missining something?
Thanks
Yes, it does. But there are other issues and much more to investigate. I will have more to say about Heiser’s book shortly.
Skip, interesting read. Nobody preaches on this because of the depth required. I am anticipating what you have to say on this subject. Hopefully tying into John 10.
What implications are there in all this for powers, prinipalities, and what is generally referred to as demonic forces?
It appears that we are once again confronted with paradigm views. Evidence is the result of the paradigm, not the other way around. More to come.
So hence; I believe, therefore evidence appears? Then there is the sticky confusion about what we call in the West “mind OVER matter”. What should we be saying? Is power something WE ascribe?
Except Heiser’s very discussion on this topic includes how his discoveries shook his prior personal paradigm(s) and took him into another direction, not unlike your discussions. Is it fair to dismiss him because his (new) understandings differ from your own?
Of course it’s not fair. But my argument was not about the differences. It was about his retreat from applying the same ideas that led him to rethink the Tanakh and its world to his view of Yeshua in the first century. He asks us the reconsider the radically different ideas of ancient cultures that we find in the Tanakh, but then he adopts a Trinitarian view of the apostolic writings without reconsidering the spiritual realm of those authors. It seems to me that his theology got in the way of exegesis.
Operative word: “seems”.
He has a theology and you now, it ‘seems’ have a rabbi that has helped reshape your world view.
i’d love to be a fly on the wall while you two discuss view points.
i realized that came off a little abruptly and for that i apologize.
I have watched your theology morph in the time i have been reading you TWs, and i’m not following a lot of it, that’s not good or bad, it’s just a personal choice.
You’re not presenting as purely as you used to, in my opinion, and this leaves the door open for a bit of pushback. It’s really immaterial, actually, aside from discussion points.
Respectfully,
pushback is good. Differences are the soil of growth. Yes, I have changed over ten years of thinking about all this. But I hope I am not victim of my own paradigm. I’m just quite aware of the implications of paradigms and how they affect what we read in the texts.
I have watch you get fried on other sites simply because the other individual had a personal vendetta against your well researched opinions, and rarely did they give you the respect of prior dialogue before they put it out there.
I hope you don’t replicate that. That would be a travesty, and totally against what you (seemingly) stand for.
That’s what you’re here for – to keep me honest. 🙂
Right. 😉
For the record, i don’t have any of his books, barely recognize the name and don’t really know what he believes or stands for.
I will now sally forth and see what i find.
I’ve been following Mike Heiser and some other scholars of similar subject matter. Looking forward to your input. Hoping to make it to your Missouri meeting.
Job 1: 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Just out of curiosity would this verse be refering to the same creations, if so would this not be the creation that Adam and Eve belonged too?
I have not read the book you make reference to and perhaps as a result of not reading it my question may be out of context but here it is anyways: When the Bible says that the creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God it is referring to this beings or us men? Please someone answer me. Thanks
For me the answer to your question is John 1 ~ those that accepted the word that takes on flesh are sons and daughters of God. As it is in these or through these that God’ salvation plan will be manifested…
N.T. Wright writes very thoughtfully on this topic in his ‘Surprised by Hope’. I highly recommend it.
Benny, Having “listened” to the book I found Heisler’s dealing with your question the most interesting and contraversal part of his book. All the talk in the first 2/3rd of the book of who/what these gods are leads to his conclusion that the “manifestation of the sons of God” refers to US becoming like these gods/beings who were/are sitting in the Divine council of YHWH. Of course, this idea – no matter how neatly or newly packaged- is fraught with both New Age and ancient Pagen promises and principles which in turn activates enough warning bells in my spirit so that the ensuing cognitive dissonance fills my tiny, reptilian brain. At this point I really don’t know whether to shout Hallelujah or Heresy. Hopefully Skip will address this issue of Heisler’s book as well. Michael
Heiser does open us up to the thinking of ancient cultures regarding divine beings (although the word “divine” never occurs in the Scripture). But what this says is that the people who WROTE the text in that TIME thought about other “gods,” however they may be defined. God doesn’t give His word into a culture in ways that cannot be understood. So what they thought is important in understanding the text, but that is not the same as saying that it is reality (and, BTW, what is “reality” if it is not how I see the world today). Heiser goes on the use Scripture to support theological ideas that never originated in the time of the authors, without noticing apparently, that he is doing precisely what he accuses theologians of doing with ancient concepts. It is quite interesting to see how he skirts this issue. More about this is forthcoming.
A discussion between you two would be most interesting.
I really think Heiser is on the right track… and I can’t lie, I do enjoy watching traditional, Western-oriented theologians squirm when trying to grasp how the ancient Hebrews perceived the reality of the spiritual world. More often than not, it simply doesn’t fit into their paradigm. 🙂
I am disturbed by this TW. I guess I think of evil primarily as within us. But maybe I will learn something. I’m open.
I wanted to reference Skip’s book, Crossing, but I think I must have accidentally deleted my pdf copy from my tablet. I guess I will be buying a hard copy soon. ?
In the wrestling match at night, Jacob fights, not Esau, but himself-in-the-presence-of-God. p. 139 of Not In God’s Name-Rabbi Jonathan Sacks
Jacob struggled because he wanted to be Esau. But the blessing came when he let go of the desire to be someone else. He still struggled, but it was to be himself. Paraphrasing from Rabbi Sack’s book.
So was this a real angel or just figurative use of speech???
Your last question: What do you want to believe?
That is not the same as “What did Jacob believe?”
I am thinking more of demonic forces. For now I would say no. I think for people who have suffered severe mental illness, this has been harmful to that group. And it is my personal experience that it is not true. But as I stated, I am open but somewhat wary. I have had conversations with people who believe witchcraft or demonic forces are real. I look forward to further insight from TW.
My wife was reading Psalm 29 in the Jewish Study Bible, published by The Jewish Publication Society, just this morning. The margin comments dealt with this very subject, Skip. Verse 1– “Ascribe to the Lord, O divine beings, ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.” These divine beings, or sons of God, are subordinate beings in the heavenly assembly. The comments continue, “In Israelite thought these divine beings are part of God’s retinue, his heavenly court.” So while the concept of another realm may surprise us, apparently it is no surprise in Jewish thinking.
No, it certainly wasn’t a surprise. Just like the “third heaven” wasn’t a surprise. We are really out of touch with the thinking of those other cultures, aren’t we? I wonder why.
Maybe a look into the message in John 3 : 1-7 may answer some questions concerning the children of God… Not born of the will of man. Moses wrote about this, he referred to the first born being a male that open the womb of the mother… Dedicated unto God.
But John isn’t writing in the context of the Church. He uses words as they are used in the LXX, a thoroughly Jewish document. So remember that bechor (first-born) has a wider range of meaning than our use of the translated term.
This absolutely is something I believe. There has always been an unseen realm. We have become so thoroughly Greek and our culture has so washed out of us this idea of beings we cannot see.
I had a pastor once tell me that if I believed in demons and the fact that they can possess people, I would be seeing them behind every rock!
Just go read the book of Enoch if you want an eye-opener! There have always been other gods and always will be. All creatures (created beings) are created by YHWH. Stands to reason that there is much forgotten/erased since all of modern Christendom has tweaked and pulled scripture so that it all “makes sense!”
I do believe demons are very active today. I have seen it with my own two eyes and talked with one once! Crazy but true. There is much of life that we tend to go thru with our eyes wide shut!
I’m late to the party after a long day. I have benefited from Heiser and am looking forward to your views on his work. I would very much like to be present in a room where the two of you are dialoguing.
Reading your post brought this scripture to mind…
Deuteronomy 10:17 King James Bible
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Can’t wait to read Heiser’s book!!
Skip: LXX, a thoroughly Jewish document. Is this document available in English or only Hebrews?
A quick search of the scriptures (KJV) does not reveal that God said that those being taught the words of God shall be called gods… (To confirm Ps 82:6-7 and John 10:34)
David does proclaim that God made humans slightly less or different from heavenly creatures… The rest of the scripture refers to the process that the human creation is required to seek God and His will.
That there be other realms the Torah says seek and consult them not…
My understanding is that what we trust in becomes our gods and they are not necessary from the God of Israel. The devil tells Eve that she will be like a god to know good from evil… Is it maybe not this ruling over that the later scriptures refer to as God being over (implying more trustworthy and reliable than our own insight or human convictions.) Trust not in the arm/mouth/pen/paper (call it what it is – including the Psalms) of man but trust in God and every word of God.
Is it not the warning from the Proverbs that to the writing of many books there is no end… From 5 original records to 66 books just in the KJV and from these books empires and libraries have been created on other peoples views all making money out of the will of God…
I would like to study the LXX in relation to the Bible should these differ I may need to decide which is more trustworthy as Yeshua says that the oracles of man and taught by man are nought to the will of God…
Knowing there exists other realms and possibilities does and should not make us question God and His will or teachings to God. We should accept this as the Creator and what was created does not make the creations greater than just more humble towards the Creator…
Just my 2c…
Skip I’m looking forward to hearing your comments. I’m only in chapter 22 and have had some question marks. Defining terms is one and his view that Yeshua is YHWH – I have commented on my view In a previous TW so won’t go into it here but it differs from what he seems to be implying.
Ever since I did a study on names about two years ago, I came to the conclusion that names are important more so than we know so I am surprised that a detailed (15 years ) book like this one does not use the Hebrew names in consistency? Heiser constantly uses YHWH but – so far as I can remember – does not use the name Yeshua or Mashiac /Messiah. He use the word law a lot but Torah rarely – all a bit mixed up for me. Define the places, names etc at the beginning and then use the correct Hebrew names in a work of this kind.
In chapter 21 – Salavation and the Law- the paradigm he presents seems to be based on his Christian understanding of faith and belief….no mention -so far- about Torah walking/obedience Being part of our (believers walk) ….and Yeshua our example of walking that out I.e. The Living Torah… But I’m only half way through so should wait till I’ve completed it.
Just some thoughts as I keep listening – looking forward to your comments and insight!
“..a world of spiritual beings created by the Most High God, who occupy positions of authority and exercise assigned duties.”
Gen 18 They are able to perform numerous human functions such as eating food as in their encounter with Abraham. They can walk and talk among us in such a way that we may not be aware of them unless they reveal themselves,
Heb. 13:2 “do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.”
Job 38: 3-7 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
YHWH created a world of spiritual beings, for sure. Just as Avraham and Sarah, and Lot had encountered them, and the many incidences of Messengers that have appeared through out Scriptures, just as Yaccov at the crossing. These are supreme beings, having great authority in assigned roles given to them.
Just as Christine Hall above shared her experience, I can share a similar encounter.
A group of us, arrived late at Georgia (US) Airport, had to wait for some folks to pick us, waited and waited, but no sign of them coming. The airport was shutting up, it was almost midnight, was dark everywhere.
Then we heard a vehicle coming, our friends were very apologetic that the passenger van stalled and they had no way to contact us, but somehow managed to get it started to pick us. Whew!
BUT, again, it flatly refused to start, and nothing the drivers did could coax the vehicle to start. We looked at each other, in the middle of no where at that strange hour.
Then, miraculously, a car appeared, and stopped beside ours. He asked what was wrong, and started “fixing” some things, and the vehicle happily roared into life! We were overjoyed! Turned around to thank the guy, but there was NO ONE around, no sign of car, nor car lights in the distance.
We all knew we had a divine encounter! It was awesome! We can remember it as if it was yesterday.
There is surely another realm.
Yes Ester there is certainly another realm which is often above and beyond our puny understanding but is at work! Praise YHWH
Thank you for sharing your story.
Yes, Christine, isn’t He, YHWH truly wonderful and amazing! Amein!
Blessings and love to you. Shalom!
These verses that I have missed out mentioning here, have ministered to me over the years
Hebrews 1:14 Berean Study Bible
Are not the angels ministering spirits, sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Psalm 91:11
For He will give His angels charge concerning you, To guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps round about them that fear him, and delivers them.
————–
This other is an eye-opener-
.2 Chronicles 18:19–21
20 “Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘How?’
21 “He said, ‘I will go and be aa deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.’
God chose to use a lying spirit because Ahab rejected God’s rebukes and warnings all through his life. Since God is sovereign over all of creation, He is not restricted in what or whom He can use to accomplish His holy purposes.
All of creation is under His authority, and He chooses to use people and spirits, both good and evil, to bring His divine plans to pass and bring glory to Himself.
“He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: ‘What have you done?’” (Daniel 4:35).
In the case of Ahab, God chose to use a lying spirit to accomplish His perfect and righteous plan (Psalm 18:30).
Those who repent of their sins will receive forgiveness just like Ahab could have.
Shalom!
Glad to see you taking this up, Dr. Moen. Heiser’s book was difficult to read with many logical fallacies. He has an odd point that every reference to the Sons of God in the Tanakh has to literally be created clestial beings. Then he gets to the New Testament and sees Yeshua who as actually YHVH even though Yeshua refers to Himself as Ben Elohim. Very confusing stuff. See you in Sedalia.